[Simon]

According to this AppleInsider article, Morgan Stanley has done a survey of PC iPod users and found that 20% - 25% of them switch to the Mac within a year of purchasing their iPod. This is rather amazing - in the past estimates for the iPod halo effect claimed about 10% switch...

But it gets even better. This AI article claims in 2005 Apple will sell roughly 20 million iPods. I don't know what the ratio between PC and Mac iPod sales is, but I guess at least 15 million of those will sell to PC users. If the halo is indeed 20%, that would mean 3 million new Mac users within a year of purchasing their new iPods.

Staggering news. Even if the halo were just 10% and projected sales were only 10 million, this would still suggest a million new users! Of course not all of these people will be full switchers, but it's certainly a whole lot of additional revenue for Apple.

[CaptainHaddock]

I believe it. I've been paying attention to Apple's quarterly reports since I switched last summer, and their Macintosh sales numbers are definitely on the rise, besting all recent years. I believe Apple's share of the PC market has risen.

I think the sweet spot for Apple would be around 10% of the market, both home and business. No one would marginalize or ignore a platform of that size, but Apple still would not be dominant enough to stagnate and turn into an anti-customer behemoth like Microsoft or HP. Apple would also have more clout to push the advanced standards (Firewire, BLuetooth, DVI, Rendezvous, etc) that the PC world is so slow to adopt.

Plus, as long as Apple represents the market segment most interested on usability, style, and innovation, Apple will be able to improve its products at a faster rate than other hardware and software companies. Just look how fast Safari has improved over the last 3 years compared to (ha ha ha) Internet Explorer. Compare Panther to WinXP. Look at the software integration between OS X, iLife, iWork, and so on. That's the advantage a smaller, more vibrant company has over big, conservative competitors.

I also hope that Linux achieves a 10-20% share. Diversity is good!

[alphasubzero949]

Now if we can get the IT goons to be a little more accepting of Macs...

[powermacj7]

I also think that the Apple Stores have helped people gain exposure to the Macintosh. I remember when Sears and Montgomery Wards sold Apple. They were usually, off to the side where most people would not see them. After these super stores stop selling computers, and of MW closed, Macs were not seen much.
We have a Apple store in our mall (Albany, NY), and it attracts even people just curious about the Mac. Of course, people may think ipod=Apple.
I agree with CaptainHaddock, 10% of the market would be great! Certainly, Mac OSX has helped Apple, as most people know it does circles around XP in many ways.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by alphasubzero949:
Now if we can get the IT goons to be a little more accepting of Macs...

Just remember to say, "You know, if you had a Mac, you wouldn't be having that problem right now." It takes a long time, but I'm slowly at least getting the PC goons to accept the Mac as a viable platform.

[kcmac]

Originally posted by Detrius:
Just remember to say, "You know, if you had a Mac, you wouldn't be having that problem right now." It takes a long time, but I'm slowly at least getting the PC goons to accept the Mac as a viable platform.

Ohh, I say it. But it usually just pisses them off. I usually try to pick my spots carefully. Otherwise, you sound like a fanbois.

[USNA91]

I'm one of those 3 million, and I'm LOVING IT!

Originally posted by alphasubzero949:
Now if we can get the IT goons to be a little more accepting of Macs...

Ain't that the truth!

At least in my office they only came in and told me (four times in three days, four seperate people) that they don't support Macs. They didn't tell me to get rid of it (which wouldn't have done any good, anyway...).

I finally looked at the last guy and said, "Look, you don't NEED to. BTW, My company-issued Dell won't log onto the network!" Funny thing was, I was cruising along on my PowerBook!

[USNA91]

Originally posted by kcmac:
Ohh, I say it. But it usually just pisses them off.

Amen!

Mac vs. PC discussions rival any of the following:

.223 vs. 7.62
.45ACP vs. Anything else
Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice
Liberal vs. Conservative
Believer vs. Atheist

etc...

[Boondoggle]

Originally posted by USNA91:


Mac vs. PC discussions rival any of the following:

.223 vs. 7.62
.45ACP vs. Anything else...

etc...

I'll take a 30-06 BAR and the 1911. But I'm oldschool.

edit: come to think of it that kind of kit could come in handy during Mac vs PC debates...

[omar96]

I wonder how many people are like me, seeing OS X as a viable way to get away from spyware, viruses, and other internet monstrosities yet it does everything I need? Since mid-December I've bought two used Macs (a Sawtooth and an iBook) and I ordered a brand new eMac for the wife on Friday. I still love my PC, but I've turned into a huge Mac fan.

[analogika]

Originally posted by omar96:
I wonder how many people are like me, seeing OS X as a viable way to get away from spyware, viruses, and other internet monstrosities yet it does everything I need? Since mid-December I've bought two used Macs (a Sawtooth and an iBook) and I ordered a brand new eMac for the wife on Friday. I still love my PC, but I've turned into a huge Mac fan.

I see people like you every single day at the store I work in (Apple reseller).

The iPod, spyware, viruses, the Mac mini, and just generally getting fed up with **** not working as advertised are all factors keeping our store busy throughout the week to a degree that used to be Christmas-weekends only, before.

[jamil5454]

Sigh... I have the same problem.

There's a guy in my compsci class that just won't accept Macs. Actually, now that I think of it, he called my iPod "gay". I guess for lack of a better word? heh.

Anytime I show him the neat effects of Expose or Fast User Switching or how well Java is integrated (seeing that the class is based around Java programming) he calls it "gay". He then continues to show me how I can build a kick-ass PC for under $1000 and such. When the iPod shuffle was mentioned, he once again called it "gay" and had the nerve to offer a better solution:

1. Buy the cheapest mp3 player you can get - $30
2. Buy a 512 stick of compact flash memory - $50
3. Voila - you now have a bare-bones way of listening to music.

He fails to realize the Shuffle is much more than "just a music player".

He also claims that spyware and viruses are a non-issue: if you know what you're doing then you shouldn't get them. Somehow, he's admires Linux (probably because it's the 1337 h4x0r OS) yet still dislikes OS X.

Mind you, I never made one comment about his computer tastes. I just think his problem is a mix of insecurity/immaturity/jealousy.

BTW - he's running a windows PHP server (how stupid can you be?) at:
http://www.iamnafets.com

[MMichaels]

Clearly, jamil, your classmate suffers from classic homo/macphobia. The sublimation of his desires for Apple technology and for men (perhaps in terms of love and acceptance from his father, etc.--and not sex necessarily) at some point resulted in feelings, which though quite irrational, once seemed more acceptable to him. Thus he has some profound self-reconciliation to do before he can accept the superiority of Apple's technologies, among other things.

But seriously, I think given Apple's super powerful revenue stream from iPods, the so-called iPod halo effect, OSX's advantages, and recent signs that the business sector is really starting to warm to Apple hardware (not to mention Apple's domination of the burgeoning music-download industry) it is safe to say that Apple is in its best position ever business-wise. Of course these signs also assure increased market share; the question is how much. The Morgan Stanley survey couldn't have been very extensive when Apple itself is trying to gauge conversion rates (see Apple's Hot News article, "Got an iPod then bought a Mac? We want to hear from you." at http://www.apple.com/switch/tell/us.html) And investment research is notorious for its lack of depth.

CaptainHaddock's point about the 10% sweet-spot is a good one. Historically, low market share has not stopped (or even hindered) Apple's level of innovation, though it has hurt its stock price. I think Apple should be investing its energies in further R&D, as opposed to trying to control the music download industry--which isn't particularly friendly to consumers. Still, I would love to see Apple selling more units than any of its PC competitors. Obviously the technology is better, so shouldn't the market reflect that? And then even people like jamil's classmate would have a hard time denying the facts.

[Detrius]

Originally posted by jamil5454:
Sigh... I have the same problem.

There's a guy in my compsci class that just won't accept Macs. Actually, now that I think of it, he called my iPod "gay". I guess for lack of a better word? heh.

Anytime I show him the neat effects of Expose or Fast User Switching or how well Java is integrated (seeing that the class is based around Java programming) he calls it "gay". He then continues to show me how I can build a kick-ass PC for under $1000 and such. When the iPod shuffle was mentioned, he once again called it "gay" and had the nerve to offer a better solution:

1. Buy the cheapest mp3 player you can get - $30
2. Buy a 512 stick of compact flash memory - $50
3. Voila - you now have a bare-bones way of listening to music.

He fails to realize the Shuffle is much more than "just a music player".

He also claims that spyware and viruses are a non-issue: if you know what you're doing then you shouldn't get them. Somehow, he's admires Linux (probably because it's the 1337 h4x0r OS) yet still dislikes OS X.

Mind you, I never made one comment about his computer tastes. I just think his problem is a mix of insecurity/immaturity/jealousy.

BTW - he's running a windows PHP server (how stupid can you be?) at:
http://www.iamnafets.com

The thing I like to use to make Linux lovers drool over Mac OS X:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...40131222238684

It was a lot more fun before I posted the hint, since no one had a freaking clue how I did it back then. Of course, you could also run KDE or Gnome full screen with Apple's X11, and trick them into thinking you switched.

If you really want to make this guy uncomfortable, you can drape your arm affectionately over his shoulder, or give him big hugs. You can also make vague references to your "partner." Here in Asheville, even some straight people use the term "partner" to refer to their SO, as they believe that you shouldn't be able to tell whether or not someone is straight by references to their SO. Therefore, [if you are straight--which I really don't care to know], you would be playing on his preconceived notions, prejudice, and homophobia by using this term, without actually implying anything that isn't inherently true.

[Simon]

Hmm, how about just forgetting Mr.-Everything-Apple-does-is-gay. Judging by your description, he has the social skills of a 14 year old and obviously needs some serious maturing before he really knows what he wants, where his life is going, etc.

If we agree that Apple's sweet spot is roughly 10% market share, we need some people to fill in the 90% gap - well that's him. Together with all the Dell drones that think buying the cheapest (i.e. Dell as they wrongly believe) is the best.

I'll be perfectly glad to see just those switch that have enough brains to recognize the advantages of the Mac platform by themselves. I tend to not discuss the issue with PC fanboys, it's just not worth the pain.

[jamil5454]

Originally posted by Detrius:
The thing I like to use to make Linux lovers drool over Mac OS X:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...40131222238684

It was a lot more fun before I posted the hint, since no one had a freaking clue how I did it back then. Of course, you could also run KDE or Gnome full screen with Apple's X11, and trick them into thinking you switched.

If you really want to make this guy uncomfortable, you can drape your arm affectionately over his shoulder, or give him big hugs. You can also make vague references to your "partner." Here in Asheville, even some straight people use the term "partner" to refer to their SO, as they believe that you shouldn't be able to tell whether or not someone is straight by references to their SO. Therefore, [if you are straight--which I really don't care to know], you would be playing on his preconceived notions, prejudice, and homophobia by using this term, without actually implying anything that isn't inherently true.

LOL, thanks for advice. I'll try that.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by omar96:
I wonder how many people are like me, seeing OS X as a viable way to get away from spyware, viruses, and other internet monstrosities yet it does everything I need? Since mid-December I've bought two used Macs (a Sawtooth and an iBook) and I ordered a brand new eMac for the wife on Friday. I still love my PC, but I've turned into a huge Mac fan.

Just remember, as the Mac market increases, so does it's size as a target for spyware, viruses and other internet monstrosities.

[NeilCharter]

At some point OS X will be a target for malware and virus and that will probably start happening in the next year or two. Apple should be able to cope with most things especially now that they have greater income at their disposal. And remember Virex is part of .Mac. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple make that an integral part of the OS when the need arises.

I personally want a greater market share than 20 %. Apple lost the plot back in the 80's and 90's because business men took over the company. Steve Jobs won't let that happen again and he is driven to excellence which should maintain the quality of the products.

For a larger than 20 % market share I think Mac clones will have to come back. Apple by then will be able to produce machines at signifciantly lower overheads than they did the last time clones were in.

The computer market has also matured - the fastest machine is no longer deemed the best - looks and funtionality are also important. Apple do this better than anyone and clone makers will be at a significant disadvantage in this respect.

So I think Apple could at that point make more money licensing OS X and the iApps and sell the best machines for their class that the market can make.

Still that's a long way off - got to make it to 5 % first!

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by NeilCharter:
For a larger than 20 % market share I think Mac clones will have to come back. Apple by then will be able to produce machines at signifciantly lower overheads than they did the last time clones were in.

The computer market has also matured - the fastest machine is no longer deemed the best - looks and funtionality are also important. Apple do this better than anyone and clone makers will be at a significant disadvantage in this respect.

So I think Apple could at that point make more money licensing OS X and the iApps and sell the best machines for their class that the market can make.

Agreed. I personally would love to see a return of the clones. Especially if names such as Fujitsu produced Mac compatible laptops. The dollar value of MacOS and iApps will have to go up as Apple shifts it's income to software.

[USNA91]

Originally posted by MMichaels:
[B]Clearly, jamil, your classmate suffers from classic homo/macphobia. The sublimation of his desires for Apple technology and for men (perhaps in terms of love and acceptance from his father, etc.--and not sex necessarily) at some point resulted in feelings, which though quite irrational, once seemed more acceptable to him. Thus he has some profound self-reconciliation to do before he can accept the superiority of Apple's technologies, among other things.

Then again, maybe he's just an idiot...



Anyway, I bought my PB on a whim. My HP laptop was dying a slow death, and I couldn't find my installation discs (living out of a suitcase for two years SUCKS!). I decided I'd had enough with the spyware (yes, I had AdAware), viruses (yes, I had PC-Cillin), crashes, etc. I also got my iPod Photo 40GB in the same pass, as I enjoy music, and wasn't too keen on buying all the albums I had to leave at home after the divorce.

So I got a PB G4. Only reason I didn't get a 17-inch instead of my 15-inch is because I tend to use this thing on airplanes, so the extra two inches were an issue.

I cannot stand these stuck-up idiots (like Jamil's friend) who go around saying the a PC is the best "provided you know how to take care of it". When I buy a car, I expect the damned thing to WORK every time I turn the key and hit the accelerator, and while basic maintenance is one thing, I shouldn't have to become a mechanic or send it to one every week just to keep the damned thing running the way it should from the get-go. Computers are supposed to SAVE me work, not CREATE it for me!

Now, is OS X the be-all, end-all I expected? Nope. But it's a damned sight better than Window$. I especially like the "feel" and the way everything is meshed together. It's not a computer running an OS running an app, it's a TOOL doing what I need it to do.

Yes, it has crashed (mostly my fault, I think), and it even had one kernel panic (which I JUST found out what that means, and again I think it may have been my fault). Microsoft Office is giving me a bit of a headache with a lag issue (figures that the ONE problem I have is with an M$ product!), but other than that, the thing works like a champ, and I refuse to not use it at work (screw the stuck-up IT types!).

So go on! Enjoy a superior machine!

I just hope that Apple can really come back and clean M$'s clock. Competition is a great thing, and M$ not having had any has allowed a lot of CRAP to come to market over the years.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Just remember, as the Mac market increases, so does it's size as a target for spyware, viruses and other internet monstrosities.

Know one thing that helps, though? The Mac doesn't really leave any ports open by default. You can verify this yourself by turning off the firewall on a Mac and port scanning it from another machine. Unless you turned something like SSH on yourself, you should get nothing. Given this, I find it doubtful that any remote exploits could show up of the type that make Blaster and Sasser possible...

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by USNA91:
Yes, it has crashed (mostly my fault, I think), and it even had one kernel panic (which I JUST found out what that means, and again I think it may have been my fault). Microsoft Office is giving me a bit of a headache with a lag issue (figures that the ONE problem I have is with an M$ product!), but other than that, the thing works like a champ, and I refuse to not use it at work (screw the stuck-up IT types!).

It's funny when Apple users blame themselves when their Apple product fails. The stuck-up idiots who go around saying a PC is the best "provided you know how to take care of it" exist on the Apple side as well. We see them whenever someone asks about a Mac problem and we are asked if we repaired permissions, or reset the PRAM or any of the other little known tricks that help "you know how to take care of it".

(perhaps your problems with MS Office are your fault as well?)

[Don Pickett]

Originally posted by USNA91:
Amen!

Mac vs. PC discussions rival any of the following:

.223 vs. 7.62

6.8 Remington SPC!

[USNA91]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
6.8 Remington SPC!

I have just GOT to get me one of those!

[Boondoggle]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
6.8 Remington SPC!

AFAIK 6.8 is to the .270 Rem what the 7.62 is to the 30-06. Militarized/Modernized versions. But they are ALL good.

[jamil5454]

Thanks for the confidence boosters, guys.

Today I was browsing http://www.ubuntulinux.org and I found out they have a LIVE version of their distro for PowerPC! Hooray!

Also, they'll ship me CDs for FREE. The only problem with this is that you have to order a certain proportion of x86 vs. x86-64 vs. PowerPC CDs. Since I wanted at least 4 PowerPC CDs, I had to order a total of 48 CDs. Oh well. I'll just pass the extra 40 CDs out to my compsci class.

[wataru]

Yeah I was pleasantly surprised to find Ubuntu's PPC live discs. It seems like most distros don't bother with live discs for PPC. It can be a lot of fun to play with when I want a break from Aqua, but I don't want to bother compiling and installing Gnome or KDE from fink.

[USNA91]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It's funny when Apple users blame themselves when their Apple product fails. The stuck-up idiots who go around saying a PC is the best "provided you know how to take care of it" exist on the Apple side as well. We see them whenever someone asks about a Mac problem and we are asked if we repaired permissions, or reset the PRAM or any of the other little known tricks that help "you know how to take care of it".

(perhaps your problems with MS Office are your fault as well?)

I say that the crashes were most likely my fault because I'm a pretty impatient person and tend to want to see results immediately. Also, I tend to be one of those who tweak or install without really paying attention, so sometimes the computer up and kicks me in the knee.

That said, a computer is a machine, and therefore fallable.

My problems with MS Office are NOT my fault, as I haven't touched it other than to install my templates and toolbars. The problem has always been there.

[Rainy Day]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Just remember, as the Mac market increases, so does it's size as a target for spyware, viruses and other internet monstrosities.

I believe this is nothing other than urban legend. The fact is Apple designs software whereas M$ hacks at spaghetti code. The proliferation of Windoze malware is due mostly to this fact alone.

Thanks to M$'s sloppy coding practices, we are now entering into an era of malware-for-profit. No doubt the Mac will therefore come under greater scrutiny, but don't expect malware for Mac to ever be anywhere as prolific (unless Apple starts to get sloppy). It is simply too easy to write malware for Windoze; it's much more difficult for Mac because it's an inherently more secure OS.

Originally posted by NeilCharter:
Apple lost the plot back in the 80's and 90's because business men took over the company.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that there probably wouldn't be an Apple Computer today if those �business men� hadn't taken over the company in the mid-80's. Steve Jobs wasn't making the brilliant choices back then that he is known for today. In fact, he was killing the company. Steve matured quite a bit during his NeXT (and Pixar) experience. The old Steve and the new Steve are like two different people.

Be that as it may, i have to agree, however, that while Sculley may have saved Apple in the mid-80's, he also made his share of mistakes. Being a corporate-type, Sculley was driven by quarterly profits, not long-term profits nor market-share. He was quite content to trade market-share for high margins on the hardware Apple made, if it shored up next quarter's balance sheet. This was pennywise but dollar-foolish. The early Sculley era, when Windoze was in its infancy and could have been easily crushed, was the right time to license the MacOS. Had that move been made in the mid to late 80's, MacOS would rule today. Don't forget that in the early 80's, M$ was a fledgling company; not the powerhouse monopoly it is today. Sculley's failure to see past quarterly profits, to view the long-term picture, set the stage to usher in the M$ monopoly.

Then again, there's no telling how the MacOS would have evolved, nor where we'd be today.

Also, it should be noted that Sculley did do some good for Apple (besides saving it from Steve Jobs' evil twin). Under his leadership Apple retired any long-term debt, and had more than a billion dollars in the bank (a legacy which has persisted, by the way). And he had the moxy to do what was right for the company by ousting one of its founders. But none of the CEO's after Sculley were anywhere as good. In fact, they got progressively worse. Until, that is, the �reborn� Steve Jobs returned.

Regarding current Mac marketshare, one fact needs to be kept in mind: The figures we see are sales figures, not installed systems in active use. I believe that the Mac's true marketshare is underrepresented by such figures because, frankly, Mac's are more durable and last longer. I've seen analysis saying that Mac users get about twice the amount of serviceable life from their computers, and my experiences support this.

I'm willing to bet the true Mac marketshare percentage (installed base) is double that with which it is credited. 3% is the common number attributed to Mac marketshare sales today, so the true number of operating computers is more likely closer to 6%. Add any new sales to that number for a more accurate reading. So if Apple experiences a 2% growth this year due to an iPod halo effect (or whatever reason), we're looking closer to an 8% marketshare.

The other implication to longer useful life for Mac's is that it reduces the total cost of ownership for a Mac purchase. Something the Dellheads fail to take into account when they compare Apples to, well, lemons.

[NeilCharter]

Rainy Day,

I take your point about Jobs not neccessarily doing totally the right thing back in the mid 80's.

But there is also the point to consider that the innovation that concieved of the macintosh computer and operating system came directly out of Jobs' desire to make something completely amazing. And he did.

Granted it was completely ahead of it's time and if it wasn't for desktop publishing Apple would have been dead.

What Sculley and his successors did was to eliminate or at least reduce the innovation at Apple to a point where it could not stay ahead of the M$ game. Sure Apple made a lot of money in the late 80's and early 90's, but the cost was extraordinarily high.

I do agree that Jobs has matured a lot since those early days, but fortunately for us has not lost any of his enthusiasm for doing excellent work. Who knows what would have happened if he stayed at Apple even with the "suits" running the money side of the business.

Fortunately for us two things happened in the 90's - the G3's and the development of OS X. Both of these have breathed new life into the platform and without them I believe Apple would have folded.

Returning to the market share issue, I personally think that because Apple has to compete with a number of vendors selling Windows machines, that they really do need to increase their market share beyond 5 % - ideally 20 %.

Now whether market share should be considered as yearly sales or true user installed base, it seems to me that the majority of pundits look to sales figures to judge market penetration. If it is perceived that Apple do not occupy a significant portion of the market, it will hamper acceptance in critical areas such as the business market. Plus as we have all seen, it can also lead to developers abandoning the platform. I think OS X has reversed that trend and Windows is now playing catch up again in many areas.

I would realy like to see businesses being able to cope with mutliple platforms and technologies so they can take advantage of the best equipment for the job at hand. A level playing field is really all I would like to see. Let the best OS win.

[Rainy Day]

Neil,

I agree with you that a greater marketshare will be a good thing for Apple, and i think we're on the road to that. People are getting fed up with Windoze insecurity and M$ arrogance and mediocre products. Plus the so-called iPod halo effect seems to be real, and thus a good thing. If i owned stock in M$, which i don't, i'd dump it and buy Apple.

As regards sales figures vs installed base, and the developer community, i agree with your analysis for the most part, however that's not the whole picture. Developers' rational for developing for a given platform are more complex than simple marketshare figures. Some will develop for Mac simply because they love the platform. Others simply because it isn't M$. Others because it costs them less in after-sale-support. Some because there are fewer competitors in the Mac market and they can get a bigger slice of it. Others because that's where the majority of their potential users are. Etc., etc., etc.

No company will drop Mac development due to marketshare numbers. They will look at the cost of Mac development vs actual sales. Only companies considering Mac development might be influenced by such numbers.

And if projects like Darwine ever come to fruition, the last real impediment to switching will become moot.

Regarding Jobs, you are correct that he did bring a great deal to Apple in the early years. Indeed, it was he who saw the commercial potential in the hardware designs which Woz had been working on. Had it not been for Mr. Jobs, Apple never would have been. The point i had meant to make was that in addition to all the good that Jobs did, he almost killed the company too. But this is really no surprise as this is typical of startups: It is widely accepted that entrepreneurs usually have what it takes to startup a company, but almost never not what it takes to sustain it after it reaches a certain size. This was certainly true of Mr. Jobs in the 80's. The difference being that he seems to have learned some valuable lessons by being ousted from Apple, and during his time at NeXT and Pixar. It is clear that Mr. Jobs now has what it takes. Indeed, Apple today is a much larger company than it was when he was ousted in the mid-80's.

Actually, he wasn't exactly "ousted." The company was in hard times and he and Sculley were clashing in their vision of what needed to be done. He tried to put the squeeze on Sculley, Sculley went to the board, and Steve was asked to step down as Chairman and take a role like head of R&D or something like that, but he chose to leave instead.

As to the value of Jobs' vision regarding the Macintosh, it's hard to say if that was a good thing or not. Relatively few know the detailed history, and the competition with the Lisa project, etc. Technologically speaking, the Lisa was far superior with its preemptive multitasking OS. It's main failing was its high price tag ($10K). Had the Mac project been a project to cost reduce the Lisa hardware, we might have had the equivalent of MacOS X in 1984, rather than having to wait until 2001.

What Sculley and his successors did was to eliminate or at least reduce the innovation at Apple to a point where it could not stay ahead of the M$ game. Sure Apple made a lot of money in the late 80's and early 90's, but the cost was extraordinarily high.

Sculley wasn't that bad. He did inspire innovation and nurtured innovative projects like Newton. I know, i worked at Apple as a software engineer from 1987-1992, during the Sculley/Spindler era. We felt like we worked for a special and innovative company during Sculley's reign. And if you ever met the guy, you liked him. There were some decisions we felt were poor (like the decision not to license the OS, and some of the corporate layoffs). But other than that, he was a good CEO. I also had heard stories about what a tyrant Jobs had been. So when Jobs returned to Apple, i was skeptical at first. But i have to say he has done exceptionally well. He has done something few people are able to do: make the transition from entrepreneur to CEO. But he did not do that without stumbling and getting a bloody nose along the way.

It was Spindler and especially Amelio who were lackluster at best. Sculley had the vision to start development on a next generation OS in the late 80's, but neither of these other two had the vision nor ability to follow through on it. About the only contribution Amelio made, as far as i can see, was to let NeXT acquire Apple, er, i mean for Apple to acquire NeXT.

Fortunately for us two things happened in the 90's - the G3's and the development of OS X. Both of these have breathed new life into the platform and without them I believe Apple would have folded.

Apple was actually working on a RISC project in the late 80's (under Sculley), but the deal with IBM for the PPC set that effort back about three or four years. Many at Apple at the time felt that was a mistake. Whether or not that is true is hard to say. In the end, Apple has done well with PPC and its partnership with IBM. Whether it might have done better or gone as far with its original RISC direction, who knows? Likewise, what if the Lisa had been cost reduced? We would have had a preemptive multitasking OS in the early 80's. But it wouldn't have built on top of a Unix core, so YMMV. I for one am truly happy with the marriage of Unix and MacOS, so maybe it was all worth waiting for? At any rate, these events of the past have taken us to where we are now, and it seems to be a pretty good place. We have a good solid technology, marketshare is on the rise and there is every indication this trend will continue. I personally believe that we are witnessing a truly historic moment: The beginning of the end of M$. And it's about f*cking time. If there's ever been a company that should be split up and scattered to the four winds, it's M$.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Rainy Day:
As to the value of Jobs' vision regarding the Macintosh, it's hard to say if that was a good thing or not. Relatively few know the detailed history, and the competition with the Lisa project, etc. Technologically speaking, the Lisa was far superior with its preemptive multitasking OS. It's main failing was its high price tag ($10K). Had the Mac project been a project to cost reduce the Lisa hardware, we might have had the equivalent of MacOS X in 1984, rather than having to wait until 2001.

Apparently, this isn't true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Apple_Lisa

[Rainy Day]

I stand corrected: I had always heard Lisa OS was preemptive. But it was multitasking from day one. The original Mac OS was not multitasking, and that design decision hampered the OS until 2001.

Andy Hertzfeld's Switcher (later MultiFinder) was brilliant, given what he had to work with. But hacking on multitasking after the fact was never a good technological solution for the Mac platform, and that's the point i was trying to make.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Rainy Day:
I stand corrected: I had always heard Lisa OS was preemptive. But it was multitasking from day one. The original Mac OS was not multitasking, and that design decision hampered the OS until 2001.

Andy Hertzfeld's Switcher (later MultiFinder) was brilliant, given what he had to work with. But hacking on multitasking after the fact was never a good technological solution for the Mac platform, and that's the point i was trying to make.

That is true (also true of Windows 9x, though, being descended from DOS, another single-tasking OS).

[NeilCharter]

Rainy Day

Many apple products appear to fall by the wayside because of cost.

Granted Lisa may have been spectacular for its time but unless it is affordable and fills a market no product will be successful. Even the ipod was overpriced at the time. I certainly waited until the 3G pod came out before I decided it was worth the price.

Apple have made many business mistakes in the past, let's hope they don't make too many in the near future. And you are correct hat Jobs certainly has learnt a few skills about running a business.

Lisa cost that much because it was too far ahead of it's time. Innovation is truly far more successful when it builds on existing technology in small increments. Simply put the punters who have to buy the stuff often are too unwilling to fork out the cash for something they don't understand or see the benefits of.

[Rainy Day]

I agree.

Regarding the iPod, when it first came out, i was skeptical because Apple has introduced so many innovative products to the world and then backed away from them. Newton and digital cameras in particular come to mind. I wondered if the iPod would be another such offering. I'm actually a little surprised at its success, but am happy that my doubts have been put to rest.

Lisa cost that much because it was too far ahead of it's time. Innovation is truly far more successful when it builds on existing technology in small increments.

True enough. Lisa had massive amounts of memory, for its time, and a hard drive, in an era when floppies were the standard. These, and other things, drove up its cost... not to mention Apple's healthy margins.

Even the mouse must have been costly. The Lisa was the first mass produced computer with a mouse, so it had to be custom made for Apple. Not the commodities they are today.

[chabig]

I think Apple should change the direction of the market share discussion. Fact--a lot of Windows sales are to people buying for other people. Companies, IT departments, managers, are buying for the organization. Store are buying Windows as cash registers. You get the idea.

Now we twist refocus the market share argument like this--40% of people who buy their own computer choose Mac. Of course I made up the 40% number, but I guarantee it's going to be higher than 5%. And quite likely this is a better statistic to use than overall market share if you want to convince customers to switch. First, it shows customers that they are not alone, and second it represents reality better. If I were considering switching to Mac, why should I care how many Windows-based cash registers there are?

Chris

[Will V.]

Well, I just switched, or I will be as soon as my new PowerBook arrives.

I am a developer of web-based apps. I know some other local networking guys and developers who are either switching, or thinking about switching. For some developers, Mac OS X makes a lot of sense. I am switching because I want a better OS at home.

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by Will V.:
Well, I just switched, or I will be as soon as my new PowerBook arrives.

I am a developer of web-based apps. I know some other local networking guys and developers who are either switching, or thinking about switching. For some developers, Mac OS X makes a lot of sense. I am switching because I want a better OS at home.

Ok, but remember, no coutnerstrike.

[Will V.]

Originally posted by DeathMan:
Ok, but remember, no coutnerstrike.

Oh, my. You mean I won't be able to play my beloved Barrels of Blood, or Vortex of Death and Destruction?

[245_Trioxin]

Originally posted by jamil5454:
He fails to realize the Shuffle is much more than "just a music player".

Oh yeah? It if it 'much more' than a music player, then tell me what else is it?

Does it take you to Disney Land? Does it do your homework? Does it wipe your nose for you?

People like you make me happy. You're dogging on a guy that isn't even here to defend himself. Atleast he like me is narrow minded enough to call your shuffle "spiffy" to your laughing face.

I will look you right in your eyes and tell you your drool worthy shuffle is smarter than me. Your friend is right. It's still just a flash player. PERIOD

It's not like the cute little thing cures cancer or anything.. I hate the iPod shuffle. Not only are they 'spiffy', but they're cooler than me. Just look at the people that are so frightened by capitalism and economics that they insult people on message boards. Point proven.


Disneyfied by Detrius

[Chuckit]

In Before the Ban.�

[Simon]

Umm mods, can we have one cup of good old banination� here please?

I would like to keep my little thread nice and calm. The gun morons on the first page went far enough already.

[Detrius]

Banination is on the way--we can't have this detritus. There's absolutely no excuse for this. Please don't hesitate to report posts like this. We can't read every post every day as soon as they are posted.

BTW, anyone have a better Disneyfication--that actually makes sense?

[Will V.]

Haha, that's hilarious! I've been on many message boards before, but I've never seen a mod deal with a troll like that! Bravo!

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Will V.:
Haha, that's hilarious! I've been on many message boards before, but I've never seen a mod deal with a troll like that! Bravo!

I was on a board once where a lot of people were bitching about the moderators, and I posted the following as a little joke:

I don't see what you guys are complaining about. I think the moderators are great, and they can do whatever they want.

[Edited by <one of the moderators' name> <some date>]

The funny thing was, one of the moderators other than the one I put in the "edited" box thought it was for real, and replied with "Good one, Tom!" and proceeded to go on a rampage editing everyone's posts.

[Judge_Fire]

Lol!

J

[Simon]

Detrius, that was just plain cool.

Thanks.