[mojo2]

Does Turkey Represent The Ideal Mix of Islam And Secularism?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/sh...key/index.html

I watched this program and found myself REALLY intrigued with how this might be the model we could possibly point to and say, "Yeah, this could work for EVERYONE."

I don't know the ins & outs and the pros and cons of Turkey's government and culture but it sure looked promising!

Anyone know about Turkey?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Anyone know about Turkey?

Yep. Priests get shot outside their churches a lot.

[bowwowman]

Having lived in Turkey for many years, I can tell you, without a doubt, that there are many, many things westerners (& europeans too) have to learn about it.

On the surface, Turkey is a beautiful country, with a rich history, a deep cultural heritage, and wonderful hospitality. During my time there, I met literally 1000's of the most friendly, hardworking, and interesting people from all walks of life: average blue-collar workers, big-company executives, and everyone in between. Never a problem whatsoever with conducting business, traveling, or just enjoying a cup of Çay (turkish tea).

However, my lasting impression was, & continues to be, that some of the most pervasive problems facing the country are:

1) Lack of seperation of church & state. If they ever expect to become part of the global community in every way that matters, they MUST stop letting religious zealots & idealology hinder and influence every decision the gov't makes. Look at the middle east & all it's problems.....99.99% of which are a result of this same situation. Be true to your beliefs, yes, uphold your faith, yes.... but stick to the facts when it comes to running the country!

2) Remove ALL barriers to economic and industiral progress and modernization on every level, while promoting their position as a leader in their part of the world. They MUST let go of their outdated beauracracies and look forward to the future.

3) Promote social progress. Make room for new ideas, methods, and stop worrying so much about not offending each other. Be respectful, yes, but again, look to the future. So many middle-aged & senior Turks are still of the mindset that "we've always done it this way, so it must be right" a very narrow view.......

4) Finally, stop punishing foreigners for their ignorance. Not everyone that goes there is an uptight Phd trying to impress everyone with their knowledge , nor a radical idealist bent on destroying their way of life. Some people just want to travel the country, take in some sights, and enjoy the experience......

Turkey DOES have great potential, and I think it will eventually realize it, but on the other hand, the west needs to stop trying to impose itself on them and let them move forward in a timely manner. I could go on & on, but I don't want this thread to turn into something it shouldn't be.

If anyone has specific questions about Turkey, please email or pm me at your convenience. I am by no means an expert, but living there for many years (and being married to one of them) tends to give one some insights that others usually overlook, of which I would be glad to elaborate on

and BTW:

priests get shot outside churches in Europe & the MiddleEast, not in Turkey

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by bowwowman

Having lived in Turkey for many years, I can tell you, without a doubt, that there are many, many things westerners (& europeans too) have to learn about it.

On the surface, Turkey is a beautiful country, with a rich history, a deep cultural heritage, and wonderful hospitality. During my time there, I met literally 1000's of the most friendly, hardworking, and interesting people from all walks of life: average blue-collar workers, big-company executives, and everyone in between. Never a problem whatsoever with conducting business, traveling, or just enjoying a cup of Çay (turkish tea).

However, my lasting impression was, & continues to be, that some of the most pervasive problems facing the country are:

1) Lack of seperation of church & state. If they ever expect to become part of the global community in every way that matters, they MUST stop letting religious zealots & idealology hinder and influence every decision the gov't makes. Look at the middle east & all it's problems.....99.99% of which are a result of this same situation. Be true to your beliefs, yes, uphold your faith, yes.... but stick to the facts when it comes to running the country!

2) Remove ALL barriers to economic and industiral progress and modernization on every level, while promoting their position as a leader in their part of the world. They MUST let go of their outdated beauracracies and look forward to the future.

3) Promote social progress. Make room for new ideas, methods, and stop worrying so much about not offending each other. Be respectful, yes, but again, look to the future. So many middle-aged & senior Turks are still of the mindset that "we've always done it this way, so it must be right" a very narrow view.......

4) Finally, stop punishing foreigners for their ignorance. Not everyone that goes there is an uptight Phd trying to impress everyone with their knowledge , nor a radical idealist bent on destroying their way of life. Some people just want to travel the country, take in some sights, and enjoy the experience......

Turkey DOES have great potential, and I think it will eventually realize it, but on the other hand, the west needs to stop trying to impose itself on them and let them move forward in a timely manner. I could go on & on, but I don't want this thread to turn into something it shouldn't be.

If anyone has specific questions about Turkey, please email or pm me at your convenience. I am by no means an expert, but living there for many years (and being married to one of them) tends to give one some insights that others usually overlook, of which I would be glad to elaborate on

and BTW:

priests get shot outside churches in Europe & the MiddleEast, not in Turkey

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was quite a guy! As time goes on and all eyes turn to Turkey, the unique country you described will gain more weight in world affairs, I believe.

NO ONE ELSE has ever done what Ataturk did.

Quite remarkable, actually.

[bowwowman]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was quite a guy! As time goes on and all eyes turn to Turkey, the unique country you described will gain more weight in world affairs, I believe.

NO ONE ELSE has ever done what Ataturk did.

Quite remarkable, actually.

Agreed, I have a great respect for him and wish others in the world would take the time to learn & appreciate everything that he accomplished in his short but meaningful life.

But may I ask how you have came to be of this opinion ?

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yep. Priests get shot outside their churches a lot.

You mix them up with the Kurds. Priests are only obstructed in their religious work.

Though I agree that large parts of Turkey have the best chances to become a modern and islamic country.


PB .

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by bowwowman

Agreed, I have a great respect for him and wish others in the world would take the time to learn & appreciate everything that he accomplished in his short but meaningful life.

But may I ask how you have came to be of this opinion ?

I watched the PBS show which I linked to and then did some reading.

An aside: I remember a time before there were personal computers and having information at your fingertips like we do today was only a fond dream. Tis a pity people sometimes seem to take Google for granted.

[Millennium]

So why did Constantinople get the works, anyway?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Millennium

So why did Constantinople get the works, anyway?

The (Mis)Adventures of Matt Lyon: Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks

I have no idea what any of that means.

[bowwowman]

Originally Posted by Millennium

So why did Constantinople get the works, anyway?

is this just sarcasm, or do you have a REAL question ? IF it is a real question, what exactly are you getting at....

And BTW, that blog linked above is IMO, for the most part, a bunch of rambling physcobabble jibberish. I'm not really sure what his point is, or if he even has one....

[bowwowman]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I watched the PBS show which I linked to and then did some reading.

An aside: I remember a time before there were personal computers and having information at your fingertips like we do today was only a fond dream. Tis a pity people sometimes seem to take Google for granted.

Wow, good for you, and here I was thinking the rest of humanity had gone completely brain dead on me

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Anyone know about Turkey?

Forget it.

Fundamentalism is on the rise in Turkey as well. Istanbul might be a cosmopolitan city, and they have some really nice vacation destinations, but most of Turkey is very much backwards (prison torture anybody?) and, thanks to an overgrowing horde of dim-witted fundies, will remain that way.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by bowwowman

is this just sarcasm, or do you have a REAL question ? IF it is a real question, what exactly are you getting at....

It's a reference to a song by some 80s band...forgot their name.

/dammit, now that song's stuck in my head.

[Dakar]

They Might Be Giants?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Dakar

They Might Be Giants?

Ah, yes, that was it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

You mix them up with the Kurds. Priests are only obstructed in their religious work.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4683548.stm

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yep. Priests get shot outside their churches a lot.

Indeed. Turkey is a really nasty place. There are nice tourist colonies and a few 'civilized' city centers, but the rest is like out of a Mad Max movie.

If this is the ideal mix of Islam and secularism, then the ideal isn't all that great. Perhaps in 200 years Turkey can achieve civilization akin to the worst in Europe, but I wouldn't count on it.

V

[Rumor]

mmm, turkey...

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Shooting kills priest in Turkey

I know, I know. I just wanted to point out the fact that this nice country is rather known for having exterminated thousands of Kurds [and before that, Armenians] than for killing priests.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

I know, I know. I just wanted to point out the fact that this nice country is rather known for having exterminated thousands of Kurds [and before that, Armenians] than for killing priests.

..and denying ever committing Armenian genocide..

..and supporting illegal occupation of Cyprus..

V

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Indeed. Turkey is a really nasty place. There are nice tourist colonies and a few 'civilized' city centers, but the rest is like out of a Mad Max movie.

Try visiting Wales someday.

[Rumor]

In all honesty, I really don't know too much about Turkey. The schools I went to never really went too much into that region of the world.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook

I know, I know. I just wanted to point out the fact that this nice country is rather known for having exterminated thousands of Kurds [and before that, Armenians] than for killing priests.

Damn, I'd forgotten all about their little escapades with the Kurds until you just reminded me. My bad.

[mojo2]

Here's the link to watch the show online.

Wide Angle . Turkey's Tigers . Watch Online | PBS

In the PBS "Wide Angle" program, Turkey's Tigers the producers used two businesses which are located next door to each other as a metaphor to describe the two faces of Turkey, secular and Muslim.



One business is named, "Tekbir," Turkey's largest Islamic-style clothing chain.

(And for voodoo and any other Spanish speakers, here's an article about Tekbir en Espanol.

ELMUNDO.ES | SUPLEMENTOS | MAGAZINE 322 | Turqu�a, el otro Islam )

It caters to the Muslim woman who wants to dress in a traditionally Muslim way, as they call it, "covered" but to do it with a pleasing sense of style and beauty.

Here is a page from their online catalogue showing several styles.

TEKB�R G�Y�M MODELLER� RES�M GALER�LER� VE TEKB�R G�Y�M RES�M KATALOGLARI TEKB�R TESETT�R G�Y�M ,[...]

Business is also booming for Tekbir's next-door neighbor, Ipekyol, whose profit comes from the sales of Western-style clothing.

Fashion group Ipekyol to debut in Europe

Tuesday, August 19 2003 @ 06:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time

The operator of 30 stores in Turkey says its current key international markets are in eastern Europe.

Women's fashion manufacturer and retailer Ipekyol on Monday unveiled plans to open its first stores in the UK, Germany, France and Spain.

[LiquidSnake]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was quite a guy! As time goes on and all eyes turn to Turkey, the unique country you described will gain more weight in world affairs, I believe.

NO ONE ELSE has ever done what Ataturk did.

Quite remarkable, actually.

thanks

[LiquidSnake]

Originally Posted by bowwowman

Having lived in Turkey for many years, I can tell you, without a doubt, that there are many, many things westerners (& europeans too) have to learn about it.

On the surface, Turkey is a beautiful country, with a rich history, a deep cultural heritage, and wonderful hospitality. During my time there, I met literally 1000's of the most friendly, hardworking, and interesting people from all walks of life: average blue-collar workers, big-company executives, and everyone in between. Never a problem whatsoever with conducting business, traveling, or just enjoying a cup of Çay (turkish tea).

However, my lasting impression was, & continues to be, that some of the most pervasive problems facing the country are:

1) Lack of seperation of church & state. If they ever expect to become part of the global community in every way that matters, they MUST stop letting religious zealots & idealology hinder and influence every decision the gov't makes. Look at the middle east & all it's problems.....99.99% of which are a result of this same situation. Be true to your beliefs, yes, uphold your faith, yes.... but stick to the facts when it comes to running the country!

2) Remove ALL barriers to economic and industiral progress and modernization on every level, while promoting their position as a leader in their part of the world. They MUST let go of their outdated beauracracies and look forward to the future.

3) Promote social progress. Make room for new ideas, methods, and stop worrying so much about not offending each other. Be respectful, yes, but again, look to the future. So many middle-aged & senior Turks are still of the mindset that "we've always done it this way, so it must be right" a very narrow view.......

4) Finally, stop punishing foreigners for their ignorance. Not everyone that goes there is an uptight Phd trying to impress everyone with their knowledge , nor a radical idealist bent on destroying their way of life. Some people just want to travel the country, take in some sights, and enjoy the experience......

Turkey DOES have great potential, and I think it will eventually realize it, but on the other hand, the west needs to stop trying to impose itself on them and let them move forward in a timely manner. I could go on & on, but I don't want this thread to turn into something it shouldn't be.

If anyone has specific questions about Turkey, please email or pm me at your convenience. I am by no means an expert, but living there for many years (and being married to one of them) tends to give one some insights that others usually overlook, of which I would be glad to elaborate on

and BTW:

priests get shot outside churches in Europe & the MiddleEast, not in Turkey

You are %99 right Thank you for your objective opinions.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I watched this program and found myself REALLY intrigued with how this might be the model we could possibly point to and say, "Yeah, this could work for EVERYONE."

You know, that's really the way to go. Telling people how they should be instead of letting them decide for themselves.

[Peder Rice]

I support people's rights to live a life that they choose, but people make some seriously terrible decisions. I seem to remember something about a benevolent dictator...

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

You know, that's really the way to go. Telling people how they should be instead of letting them decide for themselves.

But what if their decision effects the world and not just themselves?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Kevin

But what if their decision effects the world and not just themselves?

Then it's still their decision.

[iREZ]

Originally Posted by voodoo

..and denying ever committing Armenian genocide..

..and supporting illegal occupation of Cyprus..

V

quoted for emphasis...

[marden]

Originally Posted by mojo2 

Does Turkey Represent The Ideal Mix of Islam And Secularism?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/sh...key/index.html

I watched this program and found myself REALLY intrigued with how this might be the model we could possibly point to and say, "Yeah, this could work for EVERYONE."

I don't know the ins & outs and the pros and cons of Turkey's government and culture but it sure looked promising!

Anyone know about Turkey?

No, mojo. Not if the Pope gets whacked when he visits.

Or maybe, even with Turkey's flaws it represents the best mix that can be hoped for without a complete Muslim assimilation into a secular culture.

But it isn't as good as our mix in America.

If the Pope is attacked the crap will hit the fan, I think.

[Atomic Rooster]

Asia Minor: Used be Christian till the Turks came in and slaughtered everyone unless they converted to Islam.

Islam and personal freedom just don't mix.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Asia Minor: Used be Christian till the Turks came in and slaughtered everyone unless they converted to Islam.

Islam and personal freedom just don't mix.

The way that the UK govt has been forced into trying to mix everyone is a bit of an interesting experiment, isn't it?

Like Saddam Lite.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by marden 

The way that the UK govt has been forced into trying to mix everyone is a bit of an interesting experiment, isn't it?

The way you've put that makes it sound like it isn't the socialist morons in government who've been doing the forcing.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

The way you've put that makes it sound like it isn't the socialist morons in government who've been doing the forcing.

That's what I call their using a form of Judo to achieve their goals.

They use the natural desire and inclination of peoples to do what they will do anyway and, using the people's own momentum and impetus, the government is herding the people to a place and a point where providing security, safety, law and order can most easily be accomplished.

And by doing so the Govt. hopes to arrive at a situation where Muslims are happy, sort of, non-Muslims are happy, sort of and the government is happy, sort of.

And there is freedom, sort of.

The only other alternative is fighting in the streets and insurrection.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by marden 

No, mojo. Not if the Pope gets whacked when he visits.

Or maybe, even with Turkey's flaws it represents the best mix that can be hoped for without a complete Muslim assimilation into a secular culture.

But it isn't as good as our mix in America.

If the Pope is attacked the crap will hit the fan, I think.

Creepy to see someone talk to himself. You are mojo remember?

V

[marden]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Creepy to see someone talk to himself. You are mojo remember?

V

Is this our Spartacus moment, where I say, "Yes, I AM MOJO!"

And then you stand up and say, "I AM MOJO!"

And then all the regular posters chime in with some funny and clever variations of the same?

Ok, I'll start it.

Yes, I AM VOODOO!

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Creepy to see someone talk to himself. You are mojo remember?

V

His gollum compliments his smeagol.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Nicko 

His gollum compliments his smeagol.

That sounded dirty.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by marden 

Is this our Spartacus moment, where I say, "Yes, I AM MOJO!"

And then you stand up and say, "I AM MOJO!"

And then all the regular posters chime in with some funny and clever variations of the same?

Ok, I'll start it.

Yes, I AM VOODOO!

Why you bother abe, I'll never know

marden=aberdeenwriter=abe=mojo2

@Nicko

Hehe

V

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Dakar 

They Might Be Giants?

That's the most famous version of the song, but it's actually quite a bit older than that.

I was referencing the song, though.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

That's the most famous version of the song, but it's actually quite a bit older than that.

I knew that (Though all I can think of is the Animaniacs version).

Originally Posted by Millennium 

I was referencing the song, though.

Well, someone needed help identifying how he knew it.

[marden]

Wide Angle . Watch Online | PBS

Watch the show online.

It's called, "Turkey's Tigers."