[mrwilly123]

Originally Posted by neps

Tried stopping by the Apple Store in Soho, NYC and they didn't have it yet. Looking at mrwilly123 example, and could they have implemented the CSS a little cleaner?

Code:
<div style="height: 667px; left: 0px; position: absolute; top: 47px; width: 700px; " id="body_layer"><img src="Images/pinstripe_welcome_cover-min3.jpg" alt="" style="border: none; height: 21px; left: 0px; position: absolute; top: 383px; width: 700px; z-index: 1; " /><div style="background: transparent url(Images/pinstripe_bk_tile3-51.jpg) repeat scroll top left; border: 3px #ffffff none; float: left; margin: 0px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 6px; margin-top: 6px;  height: 387px; left: 0px; position: absolute; top: -2px; width: 700px; z-index: 1; " id="id7"> </div>

That's gonna be a mess for anyone but iWeb to figure out. They should have it referencing to their external CSS file. I mean they have one linked, so iWeb respects that, but this code is messy!

Agreed, nasty CSS indeed.

^^ A poem.

[mpancha]

Originally Posted by inkhead

I can't believe nobody else bought it... lol

I just bought ilife at the Apple Store, Los Angeles Grove.. They also have iwork but I can't afford both. iWeb lets you drag elements anywhere on the page, moving them around on the grid. nice.

Please resize this picture, or link to it so we dont have to continue to scroll just to read posts due to the pictures size.

Thanks.

[- - e r i k - -]

I take back what I said about iWeb. Although the code is (incredibly enough) XHTML-transitional valid, the code itself is less than humanly readable. The point of CSS is to _separate_ stylings and html code and this isn't what Apple has done :/

[inkhead]

I have no freaking idea, It's normal size on my powerbook, with snapz pro, when i uploaded it it enlarged it.

Really Annoying.

Originally Posted by Thinine

Why the hell is that pic zoomed in? Seems like you resized it to be bigger, not smaller.

[inkhead]

Actually I went through the code and CSS entirely for every single template in iweb. It's actually quite good, better than 95% of all the XHTML transitional.

Apple is using the guys from www.stopdesign.com who pioneered some of the most accessible ways to use use xhtml+css together

[inkhead]

The new iMovie has some crazy effects for computers that support corevideo, here is a screenshot of the many export options.

[inkhead]

The new iLife 06 comes on a dual-layer DVD and weights in at about 7gb, it also includes a separate folder called "Jingles" which are short clips for use in your podcasts. Things like "nightly news", "thunderstorm". There are about 350 of these really cool clips (1.5GB)

[inkhead]

If you want to make yourself sick.. "iWeb" = 630.1mb on the disk. It only has 5 freaking templates, i can't even believe how huge iweb.app is..

And the layout tools suck, it's really sad to see apple deliberately make apps suck so that they can save features for version 2.0, where is the apple innovation?

[mrwilly123]

Originally Posted by inkhead

If you want to make yourself sick.. "iWeb" = 630.1mb on the disk. It only has 5 freaking templates, i can't even believe how huge iweb.app is..

And the layout tools suck, it's really sad to see apple deliberately make apps suck so that they can save features for version 2.0, where is the apple innovation?

Yeah, one note on the massive size of the iLife/iWork apps:
I HIGHLY suggest that after installing these apps (especially Keynote, for some reason) run Delocalizer if you don't need all the language localizations. In fact, if you have never run this program before, you'll end up saving yourself a few gigs. Despite the warnings, the app runs perfectly fine on 10.4, it just takes some time (15, 20 minutes)

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by inkhead

Actually I went through the code and CSS entirely for every single template in iweb. It's actually quite good, better than 95% of all the XHTML transitional.

Apple is using the guys from www.stopdesign.com who pioneered some of the most accessible ways to use use xhtml+css together

Yes, but they should separate code and css. Even if it means making a new entry for each item in the css file. Right now the html-code is a mess.

[kcmac]

Isn't iWeb for people like me that know absolutely nothing about the code that makes things like this work? It sounds like it is stressful to those in the know but you can probably easily make your own and exactly the way you want. Plus, it looks like some devs like Karelia may be offering some solutions that may be superior and more to your liking.

No template is ever going to satisfy those that have design in their blood.

I look forward to getting iLife. Just got the email that says mine has been shipped. iWeb may give me a good reason to finally dump iBlog (talk about a mess) and vastly improve my website on dotmac.

[mdc]

I am very impressed with iLife '06.
I have made full screen editing in iPhoto the default since it is so nice and when you command click other images you can compare them. Great feature since often i take about 3 photos of the same thing (just in case).

iMovie themes are gorgeous. I dropped a few images from a paris trip into the travel opening scene, it rendered it and i emailed it to a friend on dial up. the opening sequence is probably about 10 seconds or so and it was 118k to send her. quality wasn't amazing nor was the size too big, but 118k is *nothing*.
I see myself using iMovie a lot more.

A pc using friend came over and I showed her iLife and iWork, she was blown away. Especially since they are so cheap for all the apps you are getting.

The one thing i am a little upset about is that iWeb asks you to sign up for .mac. I could only find a way to export to .mac or a folder on your local machine. iPhoto also requires .mac for photocasting.
Maybe i am missing something, but i do not see why .mac is required (technically), to get people to drop $100 a year, i can definitely see why it is required.

[dootbran]

Originally Posted by kcmac

Isn't iWeb for people like me that know absolutely nothing about the code that makes things like this work?

QFT! This is why I don't care what the css or xhtml look like. Who knows why its a mess, maybe it made it easier for them to write the program or maybe it had to do with getting png transparency working on IE

I made web pages before but long ago I became tired of having to figure out the technical end of it in order to create something that looked how I wanted it to on all playforms. Well after I fired up IE and saw my site rendering perfectly I am sold on iWeb. Not perfect but its definitely a step in the right direction for wysiwyg site builders.

[CaptainHaddock]

Originally Posted by mdc

The one thing i am a little upset about is that iWeb asks you to sign up for .mac. I could only find a way to export to .mac or a folder on your local machine.

That shouldn't be too big a deal. You could just save to a folder each time and have an Automator script upload to your FTP site.

[adamskwersky]

I don't buy that the numeric year in the product hints at a yearly product refresh.
Windows put "95" in its operating system version. Was there a Windows 96? 97?
iLife is not TurboTax. Thats a product where you KNOW it comes out every year, its part of the product design. The next Windows with the year in it was Windows 2000, then Windows 2003, etc...

I challenge you to find any other software company that won't offer fair upgrade pricing for customers who purchased the old version less than a month before the new version comes out. I'm not talking about 6 months, I'm talking about LESS THAN A MONTH. It should be considered special circumstances. Otherwise who would even think of buying iLife has a holiday gift knowing it will quickly become superseded buy a new version?

Quicken? MYOB? Heck they offer upgrade pricing for their COMPETITORS products!

Look, I'm a long-time Apple user, developer, sole proprietor of my own software. We tell our customers when new products are coming. We make it CRYSTAL clear because we value their business.

I am not talking about hardware. I have a long history of getting first generation products. The first PowerPC (6100). The first G3 tower, one of the first Dual G4's. I dont mind that I'm getting these knowing there might be a few kinks in the first revisions. But when I shop for software I expect that the version I get will be the latest for at least more than one month. Maybe its just me?

Adam

[JLL]

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

I don't buy that the numeric year in the product hints at a yearly product refresh.

iLife '04: released January 2004

iLife '05: released January 2005

iLife '06: released January 2006

Notice the trend?

[cybergoober]

If you have been an Apple fan for so long how could you not have known that the iLife suite has become a yearly thing?

[mdc]

To a certain point I agree with you, but I disagree about iLife.

Latest Versions of iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD & iTunes Work Together Seamlessly
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 7, 2003

New Versions of iPhoto, iMovie & iDVD; Introducing GarageBand
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 6, 2004

Major Upgrade Features New Versions of iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD & GarageBand
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 11, 2005

Major Upgrade Features New Versions of iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD & GarageBand and Introduces iWeb
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 10, 2006

For the past 3 years, every January Apple has released iLife, and now you say that you are surprised that you bought '05 in December and it was refreshed in January.

I could understand if Granny and Grandpa, or even Mom and Dad went to the apple store and bought it in December, but you say that ", I'm a long-time Apple user,". Did you not notice the past 3 versions of iLife that they brought out?

I'm sorry and i don't mean to attack you personally, but it just gets a bit much when people freak out about iLife since every single year since 2003 they have been bringing out new versions.
If you bought a brand new iMac with iSight and then were floored when they took that model and intel'd it. I completely agree, that one surprised me.

[Spirit_VW]

I'm acutally a little surprised at how flexible iWeb's design tools are. I was expecting more along the lines of RapidWeaver or Sandvox, where it's basically "pick a template, fill in the blanks, maybe choose which side you want the menu on." iWeb can play that game, but it goes a lot farther.

All the text boxes can be freely repositioned and changed in font, size, color, style, etc.

The drag & drop image targets support masking ala iWork, and once you've got the image in them you can resize and move the image within the mask and then move the actual mask/image box as well, anywhere on the page it seems. You can also just delete them.

It also features the same sort of shapes tools as iWork, meaning you can draw the same shapes, color them or fill them with masked images, resize, move freely, rotate, add drop shadows, etc. anywhere on the page.

The background color of the actual pages seems to be changeable as well.

It also sports the same forward/backward layering that Pages and Keynote use.

So, yeah, it's "template-based," but you've also got quite a bit of freedom in how you use those templates. Color me impressed.

[Stecchino]

Originally Posted by nbnz

You can choose not to upgrade. I will be upgrading from iLife '04 to '06. I skipped '05 because the changes weren't that compelling.

Same here. I've got iLife '05 but will not upgrade to '06 this time around. (probably be buying a new Mac in '07 anyway).

[Stecchino]

Originally Posted by onlykaria

...also do you know if you to install the entire suite if you buy the ilife suite? i would be wanting to upgrade iphoto and iweb only.

No. I know that with iLife '05 the installer lets you choose with apps you want to install/upgrade. I see no reason why this would change with the iLife '06 installer.

[adamskwersky]

Originally Posted by JLL

iLife '04: released January 2004

iLife '05: released January 2005

iLife '06: released January 2006

Notice the trend?

Excuse me, but last December it was only iLife '04, iLife '05. Two years in a row does not a trend make! Some would argue that the fast pace of improvements, '04, '05, '06, might not leave any room for improvements for iLife '07! At least not enough thats worth $80.

I had thought iLife 05 had all the big improvements and there wasn't much left to improve and that there probably wouldn't be another version for some time.

[adamskwersky]

Originally Posted by cybergoober

If you have been an Apple fan for so long how could you not have known that the iLife suite has become a yearly thing?

Hmm, perhaps it is because I have a LIFE and I don't spend all my time yearly analyzing product trends before making an $80 purchase?

Adam

[cybergoober]

So you didn't do your research before you made your purchase?

[adamskwersky]

Originally Posted by cybergoober

So you didn't do your research before you made your purchase?

Did I research? I did appropriate research. The extent of the research I did was:

1) Does iLife 05 provide the additional photo editing functionality I want? Note entirely, but good enough.
2) Does iLife 05 provide the additional book templates we want to use? Yes. But we were also looking for calendar templates....
3) Does iLife 05 deal with large libraries quickly? Faster handling of large libraries is important to us.
4) Is the software stable (as in no crashing). Yes.

Based on that research I made the purchase. If I had known Apple was going to release iLife 06 in January I would have delayed my purchase 3 weeks to get the newer version. Could I have predicted that iLife 06 was coming out? I dont think so. Every Apple Store representative I speak with say they had no information about an iLife 06 coming in January either. Apparently Apple doesn't keep their stores informed of upcoming software updates. So what kind of research is supposed to bring me to the conlusion that iLife 06 is going to be released 20 days after I purchase iLife 05? I think this policy of absolute secrecy about software product license will start to alienate customers. I dont care how fanatical a user is, if they feel stiffed often enough they'll wise up. It is one thing to keep products a secret so other can't mimic them, but its entirely another deal to not provide upgrade relief to very recent purchasers of that product.

So now lets look at the 4 items for iLife 06:
1) Does iLife 06 provide the additional photo editing functionality I want? Additional photo editing features !!!! grrr
2) Does iLife 05 provide the additional book templates we want to use? New book templates, photo-casting photo blogs, CALENDARS.
3) Does iLife 06 deal with large libraries quickly? iLife 06 now advertises that it can handle libraries 10 times as large!
4) Is the software stable (as in no crashing). UNKNOWN.

Adam

[adamskwersky]

Originally Posted by mdc

To a certain point I agree with you, but I disagree about iLife.

Latest Versions of iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD & iTunes Work Together Seamlessly
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 7, 2003

New Versions of iPhoto, iMovie & iDVD; Introducing GarageBand
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 6, 2004

Major Upgrade Features New Versions of iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD & GarageBand
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 11, 2005

Major Upgrade Features New Versions of iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD & GarageBand and Introduces iWeb
MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 10, 2006

For the past 3 years, every January Apple has released iLife, and now you say that you are surprised that you bought '05 in December and it was refreshed in January.

I said I was a long-time user, not that I keep track or even bother to research product release dates.

Ok so thanks for those links. Reading them reminds that:
The original iLife was free for download. Does that even count? I only remember something if I pay for it, hah!
iLife 04 was only $50. We bought because we needed the better iPhoto.
iLife 05 was $79 because it had a bunch of nifty new features. We needed the improved photo editing functionality.

The point is, normal people don't do a PR search to try to predict when products get released. They buy software because the old software is no longer sufficient and they need something that is sufficient. Granted, I dont need anything of the new features iLife 06 has, but I would have expected upgrade relief for very recent purchasers. Its called "making sure your customer is not pissed off".

Adam

[Buck_W]

Both iLife and iWork arrived today. I've been playing around with both apps. Very cool! The new transitions in Keynote are really nice.

I've run into a snag with iWeb. Whenever I try to access my (iPhoto) photos within iWeb using the media/inspector tab, iWeb crashes. It's happened three times, even after restarting my laptop. I've sent the bug to Apple. Anybody else having any problems?

[jmelrose]

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

Did I research? I did appropriate research. The extent of the research I did was:

1) Does iLife 05 provide the additional photo editing functionality I want? Note entirely, but good enough.
2) Does iLife 05 provide the additional book templates we want to use? Yes. But we were also looking for calendar templates....
3) Does iLife 05 deal with large libraries quickly? Faster handling of large libraries is important to us.
4) Is the software stable (as in no crashing). Yes.

Based on that research I made the purchase.

And you got what you paid for. I'm not sure I see your complaint. To be more blunt, ya gambled and lost. You hoped a new version of iLife wasn't right around the corner at the well-publicized MacWorld conference (you did say you are a developer, right? Surely you pay SOME attention to Mac trends and news), and ya got hosed. I got hosed on my $2000 December iMac G5 purchase. Well, not really. I got what I paid for. If I had waited, I could have gotten more for my money, but oh well. After all:

1: Does iMac G5 provide the speed and ease-of-use I want?
Is there ever enough speed? No, but good enough.
2. Does the graphic card suit my needs? Yes but I was also looking for something that could
play Doom 3 stutter-free!
etc etc... By YOUR logic, Apple owes my an Intel G5, right? Oh wait, you said hardware for some reason doesn't apply. Maybe that's because it doesn't help your case any, because when you apply your logic on this issue to hardware, suddenly you look ridiculous?

Point being, you bought the product. You really have nothing to complain about. You apparently knew the ins and outs of the program enough to answer the questions above, you evaluated, you conferred with your financial manager, and you moved ahead. Great. Enjoy. iLife '05 is a very nice suite. And it suits your needs! Boo-yah!

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

So now lets look at the 4 items for iLife 06:
1) Does iLife 06 provide the additional photo editing functionality I want? Additional photo editing features !!!! grrr
2) Does iLife 05 provide the additional book templates we want to use? New book templates, photo-casting photo blogs, CALENDARS.
3) Does iLife 06 deal with large libraries quickly? iLife 06 now advertises that it can handle libraries 10 times as large!
4) Is the software stable (as in no crashing). UNKNOWN.

Adam

See, there's an unknown there. You're better off waiting a while, let others test it out, and then wait to see how it all runs. Maybe... wait 12 months? Like you did for iLife '05?

And we'll look forward to seeing you back here then complaining about Apple suckerpunching everyone with iLife '07 in January of '07.

[wtmcgee]

http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/002582.shtml another article about the code being spit out by iWebl

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by wtmcgee

http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/002582.shtml another article about the code being spit out by iWebl

That guy is really looking for problems. The code generated by iWeb is compliant and very clear (well the formatting isn't but the code itself is.)

Whatdoesheknow is about right as a domain for him.

[BeyondtheMacintosh]

I REALLY REALLY REALLY want the new iMovie 6! iMovie 5 ain't that great, does anybody know where I can download it?

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheMacintosh

I REALLY REALLY REALLY want the new iMovie 6! iMovie 5 ain't that great, does anybody know where I can download it?

Apple hasn't made it available for download. You can buy it in a store. If you want to figure out where to download it without paying, there may be other forums where you can ask that question, but people here won't tell you what they are.

If you can live with that, forums.macnn.com is one of the internet's best resources for all things Mac, so you might want to stick around even if we don't teach you how to pirate.

[adamskwersky]

Originally Posted by jmelrose

And you got what you paid for. I'm not sure I see your complaint. To be more blunt, ya gambled and lost. You hoped a new version of iLife wasn't right around the corner at the well-publicized MacWorld conference (you did say you are a developer, right? Surely you pay SOME attention to Mac trends and news), and ya got hosed.

I got hosed on my $2000 December iMac G5 purchase. Well, not really. I got what I paid for. If I had waited, I could have gotten more for my money, but oh well.

...

Point being, you bought the product. You really have nothing to complain about. You apparently knew the ins and outs of the program enough to answer the questions above, you evaluated, you conferred with your financial manager, and you moved ahead. Great. Enjoy. iLife '05 is a very nice suite. And it suits your needs! Boo-yah!

Yes, I'm a software developer for IBM Rational Software in my real life. But I've written software for the Mac for helping deaf people like myself use the Mac like a TTY (www.softtty.com). I used to regularly go to MacWorld when it was still in Boston but I dont really pay attention to trade-show dates. Does the average consumer really do that? Not really. And I was looking to buy iLife in a personal capacity, not a business capacity. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect an upgrade for very recent customers of the product (as in under a month). And no it doesn't apply to hardware and I'll tell you why:

Hardware doesn't become obsolete as fast as software. The iMac G5 you bought will still be good for 3-4 years. Look at iLife 05 on eBay now. I paid $80 for it 20 days ago, now its going for $15-20. Apple advertises iLife 06 as the must-have update. In other words iLife 05 is OBSOLETE. Your iMac G5 is not obsolete. Even 3 years from now you'll still be able to sell it on eBay and get some decent green for it. Heck, I still use my original Beige G3? Will I be able to sell iLife 05 in 3 years? I doubt it. Maybe I could pay someone to take it???

I must admit I'm a bit surprised that no one else is defending my position. I am taking a *beating*, really. Is my position really such a gripe to you? So what. Are you all resigned to getting this kind of treatment from Apple? Is our fanatacism starting to blind us to Apple's marketing practices which trick consumers into buying products even though Apple knows they are going to become obsolete soon, with no recourse? They will only continue this if nobody speaks up. As consumers you should make sure your voices are heard. The message you are sending me is "Apple treats me bad, but I love it anyway." Its a dysfunctional relationship. Apple won't be able to improve unless you gripe. So gripe gripe gripe away and make your voice heard.

PS: When it comes to hardware it pays to get the 'middle' lifecycle system. In other words, when a major technology is introduced, don't buy the first models. Get the next revision. There will almost certainly be bugs in the first revision, but they often get worked out in the 2nd revision. And if it gets to the 2nd revision there is a good chance there will be 3rd and 4th revisions before the next major technology bump. As an example, I bought the 2nd revision of the Dual G4 system. It was a dual G4 1.25 Ghz and it still works great. I just wish I had iLife 06 to take it to its max.

[mrwilly123]

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

Are you all resigned to getting this kind of treatment from Apple? Is our fanatacism starting to blind us to Apple's marketing practices which trick consumers into buying products even though Apple knows they are going to become obsolete soon, with no recourse? They will only continue this if nobody speaks up. As consumers you should make sure your voices are heard. The message you are sending me is "Apple treats me bad, but I love it anyway." Its a dysfunctional relationship. Apple won't be able to improve unless you gripe. So gripe gripe gripe away and make your voice heard.

Thank you. I completely agree, people are definitely over-fanatic, and it's just been getting worse for some reason.

[:dragonflypro:]

Originally Posted by dootbran

QFT! This is why I don't care what the css or xhtml look like. Who knows why its a mess, maybe it made it easier for them to write the program or maybe it had to do with getting png transparency working on IE

I made web pages before but long ago I became tired of having to figure out the technical end of it in order to create something that looked how I wanted it to on all playforms. Well after I fired up IE and saw my site rendering perfectly I am sold on iWeb. Not perfect but its definitely a step in the right direction for wysiwyg site builders.

I have to say, this has me encouraged.

I do web dev for a living, so I was really not too optimistic with iWeb just because i have seen the crap spit out of WYSIWYG editors for years. So I have to say I am really surprised!

With all the arbitrary things that it looks like you can do in iWeb there is simply going to have to be inline markup and not everything in linked sheets.

So, just out of curiosity I took the source from the post by mrwilly (www.eggdropper.com/iwebtest) and just dropped it into Dreamweaver and had it reformat (NOT rewrite, just format) and have to say it doesn't really look all bad. And it renders on IE/FF/Saf and (surprisingly) Opera.

And it validates W3C!!

Having seen the absolute horrors that Frontpage puts out this is a huge relief. I can honestly say I have not seen its likeness with all the dragging and dropping it professes.

It certainly is not for any actual business, but for personal sites that just run static content for the most part, it's hard to argue. Especially considering how sexy some of it may end up looking.

My iWeb should be here soon I look forward to it… plus all the other goodies!

T

[inkhead]

That's the idea behind iWeb but it just doesn't live up. I code XHTML+CSS for a living, and thought iWeb would be a great way to let my girlfriend make herself a webpage without me having to do any work.

However once you start dragging in new element, aka pictures or anything the turn into z-index layers that just go over top of one another, there's no way to say put the picture inline with the text or make it justified to right or left..

Originally Posted by kcmac

Isn't iWeb for people like me that know absolutely nothing about the code that makes things like this work? It sounds like it is stressful to those in the know but you can probably easily make your own and exactly the way you want. Plus, it looks like some devs like Karelia may be offering some solutions that may be superior and more to your liking.

No template is ever going to satisfy those that have design in their blood.

I look forward to getting iLife. Just got the email that says mine has been shipped. iWeb may give me a good reason to finally dump iBlog (talk about a mess) and vastly improve my website on dotmac.

Originally Posted by wtmcgee

http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/002582.shtml another article about the code being spit out by iWebl

I checked the iWeb-created page that was mentioned in the above article as well as the one that was posted by mrwilly123 out at these two places:

http://validator.w3.org/

http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/

Each one said the two iWeb pages validated cleanly. So I don't know what he's talking about.

Then, I took his webpage (http://whatdoiknow.org/) and did the same thing. It failed to validate cleanly.

So what's he yapping about? His own website doesn't validate while the one he criticizes does.

I also checked out mrwilly123's iWeb-created website on Firefox and IE6 on a PC and it rendered properly (see here for picture). Not as beautifully rendered on a Mac, of course, but everything looked okay, and that's really the bottom line, isn't it?

[B Gallagher]

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

Every Apple Store representative I speak with say they had no information about an iLife 06 coming in January either. Apparently Apple doesn't keep their stores informed of upcoming software updates.

No, Apple really doesn't. But think about it, in all likelyhood you are going to trust what the store tells you. And what they know is sometimes less that you would think.

Unfortunately, this can mean some easy sales tomorrow. I was at the Apple section of a computer shop the day before MacWorld, only to see an eager staff member tell two people how perfect the PB G4 was for them. It's the same with software. It all boils down to more sales.

I really wish there was an upgrade price too. Ah well. I'll be getting iLife. iWork I might give a miss. It really depends on exactly what the new features in KeyNote are like.

[JKT]

FWIW, you are not alone in thinking that the lack of upgrade pricing for iLife is abysmal... along with the lack of upgrade pricing for Quicktime Pro and Mac OS X and iWork and a lot of the other software that Apple ships with the exception of the Pro stuff... but it does have to be said, you really should have done your research first. Apple has a long history of not offering upgrade prices for software. However, now you know and you won't get burned twice, will you?

Personally, I have refused to buy Quicktime Pro ever since the lack of upgrade pricing to prior owners first became apparent... Apple's loss, not mine.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

Hardware doesn't become obsolete as fast as software. The iMac G5 you bought will still be good for 3-4 years. Look at iLife 05 on eBay now. I paid $80 for it 20 days ago, now its going for $15-20. Apple advertises iLife 06 as the must-have update. In other words iLife 05 is OBSOLETE. Your iMac G5 is not obsolete. Even 3 years from now you'll still be able to sell it on eBay and get some decent green for it. Heck, I still use my original Beige G3? Will I be able to sell iLife 05 in 3 years? I doubt it. Maybe I could pay someone to take it???

This is where your argument falls apart. You can still use iLife '05. Your version will work just as well as it did a month ago. Of course Apple advertises iLife '06 as a "must-have" update. That's called marketing. Obviously, that doesn't mean you must have it. Instead of offering upgrade pricing, they've decided to add enough new things to entice people to buy it again. I was going to say it worked for you because you apparently want the latest and greatest, but then I realized you bought iLife '05 11 months after it was released. Why not hold onto it for another year and then buy iLife '07?

I must admit I'm a bit surprised that no one else is defending my position. I am taking a *beating*, really. Is my position really such a gripe to you? So what. Are you all resigned to getting this kind of treatment from Apple? Is our fanatacism starting to blind us to Apple's marketing practices which trick consumers into buying products even though Apple knows they are going to become obsolete soon, with no recourse? They will only continue this if nobody speaks up. As consumers you should make sure your voices are heard. The message you are sending me is "Apple treats me bad, but I love it anyway." Its a dysfunctional relationship. Apple won't be able to improve unless you gripe. So gripe gripe gripe away and make your voice heard.

Whatever. The whole idea that people are fanatics because they agree with Apple instead of you is ridiculous and insulting. It's called an opinion. Yours isn't the only valid one.

[barney ntd]

Originally Posted by JKT

FWIW, you are not alone in thinking that the lack of upgrade pricing for iLife is abysmal... along with the lack of upgrade pricing for Quicktime Pro and Mac OS X and iWork and a lot of the other software that Apple ships with the exception of the Pro stuff...

Upgrade pricing (as used by Adobe, M$ and almost everyone else) doesn't make sense, either for iLife or for MacOS X. Since everyone already has an earlier version, everyone would be eligible for the upgrade price. Would it make you happier if Apple quoted a nominal price of twice as much for those imaginary people who have non Apple MacOS X-compatible computers, and are buying it for the first time? Or perhaps those who skipped the last update should pay double for this one?

Quicktime Pro is the only case where you are forced to upgrade when you upgrade something else.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by barney ntd

Upgrade pricing (as used by Adobe, M$ and almost everyone else) doesn't make sense, either for iLife or for MacOS X. Since everyone already has an earlier version, everyone would be eligible for the upgrade price. Would it make you happier if Apple quoted a nominal price of twice as much for those imaginary people who have non Apple MacOS X-compatible computers, and are buying it for the first time? Or perhaps those who skipped the last update should pay double for this one?

Quicktime Pro is the only case where you are forced to upgrade when you upgrade something else.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't offer some form of upgrade pricing for people who have bought software within e.g. the past month of the new release. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[jmelrose]

Originally Posted by lavar78

This is where your argument falls apart. You can still use iLife '05. Your version will work just as well as it did a month ago. Of course Apple advertises iLife '06 as a "must-have" update. That's called marketing. Obviously, that doesn't mean you must have it. Instead of offering upgrade pricing, they've decided to add enough new things to entice people to buy it again. I was going to say it worked for you because you apparently want the latest and greatest, but then I realized you bought iLife '05 11 months after it was released. Why not hold onto it for another year and then buy iLife '07?


Whatever. The whole idea that people are fanatics because they agree with Apple instead of you is ridiculous and insulting. It's called an opinion. Yours isn't the only valid one.

Amen. THanks for posting what I was about to say. No one is saying iLife '05 is obsolete, that's ridiculous. It's not like Apple has designed '05 to stop functioning now that '06 is out. This forum is replete with people saying they skipped a year.

My point, adamskwersky, one of them anyway, is that if Apple had put out this upgrade in July instead, you would have no problem with it? You'd pay the for the extra features and be done with it, without complaint? Again, I think the reason you have no backing is because you waited until the end of '05 to buy a product labelled with an '05, and now you're angry at the company for putting out an '06 version in '06. If iLife '05 came out in November and then they released this, I think you'd have a very valid complaint. But you waited 11 months. Oh well.

Again, $80 for 4 decently upgraded applications and a whole new one is not a bad deal at all. Depending on how many of the iLife apps you actually use, I'd say iWeb is worth about $20 as a brand-new piece of software, and then the others (except iTunes) are getting upgraded for about $15/each. For a professionally-produced product, that's not a bad upgrade price at all.

For exampe, iPhoto started out free. If you multiply out that $15 dollars over several iLife revisions, over the course of its lifespan Apple's asked people to shell out 60-75 dollars for one of the best, easiest consumer pieces of software on any platform, period. However, Apple doesn't allow people to ala carte upgrade those applications, so you're still shelling out $80 for all of them, but I firmly believe it's a good value for the money. After all, this isn't OS software with security upgrades and so forth. If you choose to sit on a verson for several years, no problem. iLife needs no upgrade pricing unless they shoot the price up over $100 bucks, in my opinion, unless they roll iWork into it someday.

Anyway, I've pointed my figure at numerous things Apple's done, but I've always thought their pricing for iLife to be extremely reasonable, particularly for the quality of the product, and the substantial upgrades they provide. This upgrade to iLife makes nothing you bought and paid for with your copy of iLife '05 non-functional. THerefore, you got what you paid for, and have no complaint. Well, you SHOULD have no complaint I guess, which is why you aren't getting a lot of people rushing to voice support for you, and maybe that should be a hint that your stance on this issue is shaky at best.

One last point about the upgrade pricing: I want to give a "hear hear" to barney's post. What would adamskwersky have to say on that point?

[pliny]

I see nothing wrong with offering an upgrade path from one version of iLife to the next. In fact I think it's a very good idea.

I also don't buy the argument that we should expect our purchases to be current for only one year. Why? Apple could offer an upgrade path that wouldn't necessarily include every app, e.g., you could purchase just one component of the suite. It's good to have some flexibility in the buying/pricing.

The only reason not to, is so that you fork over $80.

And how much research into a product do we have to do before we buy it? I don't think most people are asking, what did Apple do at Macworld last year and the year before and will they come out with some point update in one month, when they look at software. Are they? Seems a bit of a stretch. I don't think we should expect customers to ask such questions either. (I bet Apple counts on it!)

[barney ntd]

Originally Posted by JKT

That doesn't mean that they couldn't offer some form of upgrade pricing for people who have bought software within e.g. the past month of the new release. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Sounds like a nice bonus to me. How much do you think it costs to check the purchase date? Or should this only apply to online purchases?

Originally Posted by pliny

I see nothing wrong with offering an upgrade path from one version of iLife to the next.

Except that if Apple's going to make any profit, the upgrade price would have to be the same as he full price is now.

Originally Posted by pliny

I also don't buy the argument that we should expect our purchases to be current for only one year. Why? Apple could offer an upgrade path that wouldn't necessarily include every app, e.g., you could purchase just one component of the suite. It's good to have some flexibility in the buying/pricing.

Who will pay the extra overheads? Flexibility costs a lot in admin. The reason the iApps are so cheap (considered individually) is because they are bundled together.

Originally Posted by pliny

And how much research into a product do we have to do before we buy it? I don't think most people are asking, what did Apple do at Macworld last year and the year before and will they come out with some point update in one month, when they look at software.

If people know when the new version comes out, and insist on getting the latest straight away, they are already doing this sort of research. The idea that you waited till November last time, but can't wait at all this time is a bit inconsistent.

[pliny]

Originally Posted by barney ntd

Sounds like a nice bonus to me. How much do you think it costs to check the purchase date? Or should this only apply to online purchases?


Except that if Apple's going to make any profit, the upgrade price would have to be the same as he full price is now.


Who will pay the extra overheads? Flexibility costs a lot in admin. The reason the iApps are so cheap (considered individually) is because they are bundled together.


If people know when the new version comes out, and insist on getting the latest straight away, they are already doing this sort of research. The idea that you waited till November last time, but can't wait at all this time is a bit inconsistent.

Heh heh, what do you know about the costs to Apple of making this software or selling it???

I don't know what you mean by your statement that waiting for software last time means doing research or that if they know...etc? Your overall point seems to be simply that Apple is selling this software at the only price and it is take it or leave it. Ok. Me, I'd rather have some options to buy some software rather than just fork over what is being asked. Some options might also result in more sales. I mean, upgrade paths for software and suites are not a revolutionary idea. Companies do it all the time. MS for instance sells upgrades to Office 2003 for owners all the way back to Office 97. Even for owners of Microsoft Works.

[barney ntd]

All your arguments, Pliny, amount to one thing: "I want to pay less". That means either someone else has to pay more, or the market has to grow. Since almost everyone who has a mac has ilife, growing the market means selling more macs, which Apple has been trying to do for years. So who should pay more?

I don't understand how you can believe that more complicated sales structures are free. They just aren't.

[magnitude]

If you buy a software product less than a month before the new product was released, and the employees in the Apple store have no knowledge that a new product was coming out, it just makes good PR sense to allow someone to exchange the old product for the new. If employees of the company don't "know" the product is coming out, they can't expect the public to "assume" the product is coming out.

[mpancha]

In the PC world, if you buy Windows Whatever, and if Windows Whatever.2 comes out the following day, you don't get to take it back and complain about how you didn't know.

If you buy Office, and the next day Office++ comes out, you don't get to take it back and complain about how you didn't know there was a new release.

Forget the fact that most manufacturors announce their new products months in advance, instead of at release, the logic remains the same. If you buy software one day, and something better comes out the next day, you don't get to exchange it.

[onlykaria]

Originally Posted by adamskwersky

I said I was a long-time user, not that I keep track or even bother to research product release dates.

Ok so thanks for those links. Reading them reminds that:
The original iLife was free for download. Does that even count? I only remember something if I pay for it, hah!
iLife 04 was only $50. We bought because we needed the better iPhoto.
iLife 05 was $79 because it had a bunch of nifty new features. We needed the improved photo editing functionality.

The point is, normal people don't do a PR search to try to predict when products get released. They buy software because the old software is no longer sufficient and they need something that is sufficient. Granted, I dont need anything of the new features iLife 06 has, but I would have expected upgrade relief for very recent purchasers. Its called "making sure your customer is not pissed off".

Adam

ok you are a fool. and thats ok, but you are complaining about other people (apple) doing something wrong because you are a fool. and that is NOT ok.

you dont check software release dates
you claim you have never heard of annual software upgrades (except for the software you listed that upgrades annually )

but you are WRONG about what the "average" consumer does. just as most readers check the publish/copyright dates for the books they buy, so do just most computer users check software release dates. even if all they do is peek at the back of the box.

and i would like to add that EVEN if you did no check the release date , or never heard of annual software updates , any reasonable adult (or child for that matter) would consider that software called ANYTHING 2005, would maybe change in 2006 and your car example is super lame because anyone buying a 2005 model in december KNOWS a 2006 model is around the corner if its not already out.