[chris v]

I say not.

Discuss.

[eltrut]

Wtf ?

[Mastrap]

I am with the Tejan.

[OB1]

No. It's pure evil.

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Spyro Gyra inflicted great evil upon this world.

[chris v]

Here's my thinking:

Canned, sampled sequenced percussion,
Little if any melody,
Repetitive, simplistic chord progressions,
No lyrics WHATSOEVER,
Namby-pamby, panty-waist, girly-boy, limp-wrist, tea-sip, sissy stylings, which don't rock whatsoever.

Case closed.

[Salty]

Yes but smooth jazz fans aren't near as annoying as rap fans.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Salty

Yes but smooth jazz fans aren't near as annoying as rap fans.

Insofar as I haven't managed to incite any of them in this thread, then true.

[analogika]

Kenny G needs to be mentioned in this thread.

I don't think any further discussion is necessary.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by analogika

Kenny G needs to be mentioned in this thread.

I don't think any further discussion is necessary.

Oh yes, it is

[analogika]

That's not discussion.

That's a rant.

And a classic one, too.

[zmcgill]

You forgot to spell it 'SMOOTH JAZZ" like it's an acronym or something.

[Briareus]

chris v:

WOW! Thanks for the Metheny link - I'm not a jazz guy, so that was new for me - the most amazing smackdown I've seen in a long time

[chris v]

Richard Thompson Agrees. (mp3)

[Dork.]

Of course it's music. Just not very good or interesting music.

Wonder Bread may taste like styrofoam and have no redeeming nutritional value, but it's still bread.

[wataru]

Originally Posted by chris v

Oh yes, it is

I've been trying to convince a friend of mine that not all jazz is like Kenny G. I think that's the perfect read to prove my point.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally Posted by chris v

Oh yes, it is

"But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, ****ed up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, **** all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, 'let it slide', at our own peril."



That certainly gets right to the point of why Kenny G is an awful jazz 'musician.'

[ghporter]

"Smooth Jazz" is as valid a musical form as any other form of jazz, such as Acid Jazz or Avant Garde. It's less jarring than many non-traditional jazz forms-but sometimes just plain sleep-inducing! I like it a lot better than the completely unstructured experimental forms. It's good for filling unpleasant silences...but I prefer harp music for that.

[abe]

Originally Posted by ghporter

"Smooth Jazz" is as valid a musical form as any other form of jazz, such as Acid Jazz or Avant Garde. It's less jarring than many non-traditional jazz forms-but sometimes just plain sleep-inducing! I like it a lot better than the completely unstructured experimental forms. It's good for filling unpleasant silences...but I prefer harp music for that.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by chris v

Oh yes, it is

First interview I ever read with Pat Metheny. That was funny.

[Todd Madson]

Metheny can play like the dickens and though he's been accused as being a
purveyor of lite-jazz himself he can play with TEETH when he wants to (see
a track called "The Roots of Coincidence" from his "Imaginary Day" release
to hear him play with some geniune anger and distortion).

So I was pretty pleased to hear his excoriating diatribe regarding Kenny.

[Jawbone54]

Is there a such thing as "coarse" jazz?

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Is there a such thing as "coarse" jazz?

I'd think Bitch's Brew might fall under that category. And most of Ornette Coleman's catalogue.

[Jawbone54]

What about adhesive jazz?

[zmcgill]

Originally Posted by Todd Madson

Metheny can play like the dickens and though he's been accused as being a
purveyor of lite-jazz himself he can play with TEETH when he wants to (see
a track called "The Roots of Coincidence" from his "Imaginary Day" release
to hear him play with some geniune anger and distortion).

So I was pretty pleased to hear his excoriating diatribe regarding Kenny.

iTMS link

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chris v

Here's my thinking:

Canned, sampled sequenced percussion,
Little if any melody,
Repetitive, simplistic chord progressions,
No lyrics WHATSOEVER,
Namby-pamby, panty-waist, girly-boy, limp-wrist, tea-sip, sissy stylings, which don't rock whatsoever.

In my opinion you can say that about a lot of mainstream contemporary music. The exception is the latter, as I don't equate masculinity with having something musical to say.

A problem with a lot of contemporary music is that it is rather limited in the range of human emotions being expressed. How many pop songs make a truely sincere attempt to convey beauty (and I don't mean with cliched lyrics about love)? Sure they exist, but simple power chords still seem to dominate.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Todd Madson

Metheny can play like the dickens and though he's been accused as being a
purveyor of lite-jazz himself he can play with TEETH when he wants to (see
a track called "The Roots of Coincidence" from his "Imaginary Day" release
to hear him play with some geniune anger and distortion).

So I was pretty pleased to hear his excoriating diatribe regarding Kenny.

Metheney + Scofiend + Frisell are considered the big jazz guitarists living today. Metheney is no slouch.

[besson3c]

One of the most impressive and musical Smooth Jazz artists in my opnion is Chris Botti... I went and heard him not too long ago, he's very cool - quite an intimacy in his performances. He's also a grad at the University I went to.

He's Sting's trumpet player, and credits his major influences to Sting, Sinatra, and Miles.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...43441&i=404122


Here's a track from his latest album:

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...41&i=153456531

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

What about adhesive jazz?

Well, if there's not, there darn sure should be!

[chris v]

Originally Posted by besson3c

In my opinion you can say that about a lot of mainstream contemporary music. The exception is the latter, as I don't equate masculinity with having something musical to say.

Nether do I . I associate it with Non-namby-pamby, panty-waist, girly-boy, limp-wrist, tea-sip, sissy-styling-ness.

[maximusbibicus]

Originally Posted by chris v

I say not.

Discuss.

I'd take Jazz out of the name and call it Smooth Crap. Suits the genre. Technically it is music.

Dave Koz should walk in front of a bus.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by maximusbibicus

I'd take Jazz out of the name and call it Smooth Crap. Suits the genre. Technically it is music.

Dave Koz should walk in front of a bus.

Anybody who wants to make such a generalization has to listen to those Chris Botti clips in iTunes and musically analyze it enough to convince me that it is crap.

I agree that a lot of smooth jazz is crap, but you can't paint the entire genre with the same brush.

[maximusbibicus]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Anybody who wants to make such a generalization has to listen to those Chris Botti clips in iTunes and musically analyze it enough to convince me that it is crap.

I agree that a lot of smooth jazz is crap, but you can't paint the entire genre with the same brush.

I can and I did.

More importantly, its not Jazz. Call it Adult Contemporay, not Jazz. It should be on the same shelf with Tom Jones. Pure fluff. If you like it, thats your perogative (and problem). In my opinion its pure crap.

[awaspaas]

I too saw Chris Botti a few months ago, going in fearing it would be Kenny-G on trumpet, but I was pleasantly surprised. He played Flamenco Sketches, showed excellent technique and some real straight-up improvisation. Very impressed.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by maximusbibicus

I can and I did.

More importantly, its not Jazz. Call it Adult Contemporay, not Jazz. It should be on the same shelf with Tom Jones. Pure fluff. If you like it, thats your perogative (and problem). In my opinion its pure crap.

The subject of "what is Jazz" is a great debate. Wynton Marsalis has his own idea, most of the rest of the jazz community has their own. It is clearly quite a difficult thing to define, so you'll excuse me if I'll assume that you cannot. More important, "jazz", "straight-ahead", "bebop", "cool", "swing", "fusion", "funk", etc. are just names - an artificial construct of categorizing music so that it is easier to sell records.

What makes it pure crap to you? Many of the songs Botti has recorded (including Flamenco Sketches like awaspass mentioned), are great tunes and staples in either/or jazz literature or the so-called "great American songbook". Do you object to them? Or, do you object to the interpretation of these songs?

If the latter, jazz songs are interpreted a gazillion ways - I'm sure I could find some interpretations coming out of mainstream jazz artists that you object to too.


Kenny G, okay, I can help you analyze his music enough to see that it is pretty diatonic and conservative, more ad libbing and embellishing melody than improvising. Chris Botti: good luck in your defense!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by awaspaas

I too saw Chris Botti a few months ago, going in fearing it would be Kenny-G on trumpet, but I was pleasantly surprised. He played Flamenco Sketches, showed excellent technique and some real straight-up improvisation. Very impressed.

I went into the Botti concert with the same sort of expectations.. I have a new hero now!

[chris v]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree that a lot of smooth jazz is crap, but you can't paint the entire genre with the same brush.

Why the hell not? The idea of having to scrounge through 97% of a such a loathesome genre to find the 3% that might be passable sounds like an exersise in futility to me. I'd say that if you're good, then by definition, you're no longer playing "Smooth Jazz," you're playing actual Jazz.

*fires up teh Art Pepper*

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chris v

Why the hell not? The idea of having to scrounge through 97% of a such a loathesome genre to find the 3% that might be passable sounds like an exersise in futility to me. I'd say that if you're good, then by definition, you're no longer playing "Smooth Jazz," you're playing actual Jazz.

*fires up teh Art Pepper*

Because music performed at a high level of musicality is not "category x" or "category y" music - it's simply good music.

Trying to categorize certain kinds of music is an exercise in futility. Look at Jazz fusion. The idea of Jazz fusion is literally about combining styles of music... so basically, this music consists of all sorts of mutts.

Except the problem with going this far is that most artists are mutts, because they are comprised of all sorts of musical influences - many outside of their musical genre.

Good music is good music, plain and simple, I don't care how you care to categorize it, but as long as we use these categories you can expect that people like me will argue semantics.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Because music performed at a high level of musicality is not "category x" or "category y" music - it's simply good music.

Trying to categorize certain kinds of music is an exercise in futility. Look at Jazz fusion. The idea of Jazz fusion is literally about combining styles of music... so basically, this music consists of all sorts of mutts.

Except the problem with going this far is that most artists are mutts, because they are comprised of all sorts of musical influences - many outside of their musical genre.

Good music is good music, plain and simple, I don't care how you care to categorize it, but as long as we use these categories you can expect that people like me will argue semantics.

Hey, I started the thread on a lark, as a rip of the "Is Rap Music" thread. I know we could spend 16 pages and half of our waking hours discussing sub-genres and semantics, but it was a little more light-hearted than that. Don't take me too seriously. I hate genre classification most of the time. Is it Emo-core-speed-metal-math-rock? I don't friggin' care. I've listened to everything from medival madrigals to Skalypso to Patsy Cline to Snakefinger, and enjoyed it. I can't quantify why I like it, and am happy to let that remain a mystery. I've played everything from traditonal country, to P-funk, to hard-core punk, to garage rock, to folk, to hell... you get the point. Yeah, I've had lots of influences. Not meaning to box any particular musician in... except Kenny G, of course.

[maximusbibicus]

Originally Posted by chris v

Why the hell not? The idea of having to scrounge through 97% of a such a loathesome genre to find the 3% that might be passable sounds like an exersise in futility to me. I'd say that if you're good, then by definition, you're no longer playing "Smooth Jazz," you're playing actual Jazz.

*fires up teh Art Pepper*

That is a better response than i could ever come up with for besson. Well said.

To me Smooth Jazz is way too produced, sounds way too generic and has no soul.

When a piece sounds raw, original (at least the interpretation of the piece) and gives you the impression that the performer lives and dies with his music, I respect it. Smoth Jazz just doesn't have those qualities with me. If you played a random piece I couldn't have a hope of guessing who it is. Joe Henderson's sax, i'll pick up in a heartbeat. Elvin Jones' beat, no prob. There is a difference.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chris v

Hey, I started the thread on a lark, as a rip of the "Is Rap Music" thread. I know we could spend 16 pages and half of our waking hours discussing sub-genres and semantics, but it was a little more light-hearted than that. Don't take me too seriously. I hate genre classification most of the time. Is it Emo-core-speed-metal-math-rock? I don't friggin' care. I've listened to everything from medival madrigals to Skalypso to Patsy Cline to Snakefinger, and enjoyed it. I can't quantify why I like it, and am happy to let that remain a mystery. I've played everything from traditonal country, to P-funk, to hard-core punk, to garage rock, to folk, to hell... you get the point. Yeah, I've had lots of influences. Not meaning to box any particular musician in... except Kenny G, of course.

So, was Chris Botti a little easier to stomache than the other Smooth Jazz artists that you dislike? Before you answer that, do you enjoy so-called mainstream jazz?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by maximusbibicus

That is a better response than i could ever come up with for besson. Well said.

To me Smooth Jazz is way too produced, sounds way too generic and has no soul.

When a piece sounds raw, original (at least the interpretation of the piece) and gives you the impression that the performer lives and dies with his music, I respect it. Smoth Jazz just doesn't have those qualities with me. If you played a random piece I couldn't have a hope of guessing who it is. Joe Henderson's sax, i'll pick up in a heartbeat. Elvin Jones' beat, no prob. There is a difference.

I think in many genres there is sort of the common identifiers of that genre, and people base their decisions around these identifiers. To me, I find many of these identifiers cliché, and am usually interested in trying to get past the clichés.

I'm willing to bet that your perception of smooth jazz is more like Kenny G than Chris Botti. You may or may not like Botti, but all I'm hoping is that you'll see a stark difference so that you are less inclined to make these sorts of generalizations.

[maximusbibicus]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think in many genres there is sort of the common identifiers of that genre, and people base their decisions around these identifiers. To me, I find many of these identifiers cliché, and am usually interested in trying to get past the clichés.

I'm willing to bet that your perception of smooth jazz is more like Kenny G than Chris Botti. You may or may not like Botti, but all I'm hoping is that you'll see a stark difference so that you are less inclined to make these sorts of generalizations.

My interpretation is based on smooth jaxx in general. One talented musician doesn't make a genre. I haven't heard any of Chris Botti's stuff, but from all of the smooth jazz I have been exposed to, its a fair assumption that he would be just like the rest. I could easily be proven wrong though. Again, one musician doesn't make a genre.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by maximusbibicus

My interpretation is based on smooth jaxx in general. One talented musician doesn't make a genre. I haven't heard any of Chris Botti's stuff, but from all of the smooth jazz I have been exposed to, its a fair assumption that he would be just like the rest. I could easily be proven wrong though. Again, one musician doesn't make a genre.

What does make a genre then, and why is the definition of this genre important to you?

[maximusbibicus]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What does make a genre then, and why is the definition of this genre important to you?

I'll take a wild stab that you are a smooth jazz musician and that this debate frustrates you. Can we just have differing views?

I have worked in a music store, i have been a buyer, i have been a manger for a jazz/classical store, i have dealt with record company reps and have had free cds given to me everytime a prominent smooth jazz artist comes out with an album, i have been (somewhat) forced to play smooth jazz in my store. I don't like it. Generally speaking its over produced fluff. Even given the cds for free, i have no interest. This is MY opinion.

Are you going to spend the whole day trying to convince me i am in some way wrong for having MY opinion?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by maximusbibicus

I'll take a wild stab that you are a smooth jazz musician and that this debate frustrates you. Can we just have differing views?

No, I'm a jazz musician not terribly influenced by any smooth jazz artists, but I have deep respect for what Botti is doing and therefore have a problem with these generalizations since Botti is lumped into the Smooth Jazz category.

I have worked in a music store, i have been a buyer, i have been a manger for a jazz/classical store, i have dealt with record company reps and have had free cds given to me everytime a prominent smooth jazz artist comes out with an album, i have been (somewhat) forced to play smooth jazz in my store. I don't like it. Generally speaking its over produced fluff. Even given the cds for free, i have no interest. This is MY opinion.

Are you going to spend the whole day trying to convince me i am in some way wrong for having MY opinion?

No, I'm going to spend all day getting you to qualify what you are saying... Saying that generally speaking, you don't like Smooth Jazz is fine. Generally speaking, I don't like Country. Saying that Smooth Jazz is not music and is pure fluff is different, see the difference here?

[abe]

Originally Posted by maximusbibicus

Can we just have differing views?

Originally Posted by besson3c

No, I'm going to spend all day getting you to qualify what you are saying... Saying that generally speaking, you don't like Smooth Jazz is fine. Generally speaking, I don't like Country. Saying that Smooth Jazz is not music and is pure fluff is different, see the difference here?

See how irritating Canadian neutrality can be?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by abe

See how irritating Canadian neutrality can be?

What's Canadian about it? It's called being an intellectual and saying what you really mean and backing up what you are saying with legitimate justification. It's annoying when people just throw some idea out there and don't justify it.

People were very quick to get all over me in my OS 9 mentality thread, and I worked hard to correct my lack of clarity - I only took offense at the aggressiveness in which people were getting on my case.

There is also nit-picking semantics and a blurred line between it and intellectual debate, but I don't think I was being petty - there was a definite reason behind what I was doing, to turn people on to Botti and destroy barriers that genres create. I wasn't simply trying to argue for the sake of arguing like many people in general have an annoying habit of doing (myself included at times, I'm sure).

[chris v]

Originally Posted by besson3c

So, was Chris Botti a little easier to stomache than the other Smooth Jazz artists that you dislike? Before you answer that, do you enjoy so-called mainstream jazz?

I've never heard any Chris Botti, so I don't know how to answer that. Also, I'm not sure what "mainstream" jazz is. In general, my taste falls towards the old-skool bop, cool jazz, & west-coast scene. I grew up surrounded by Miles, Monk, Mingus, Baker, Getz, Parker, Bird, etc. I don't tend to do fusion as much, & I don't keep up with developments in the genre as a whole.

Again, I was not being very serious when I created this thread. If I've offended your sensibilities by having a bit of fun, well, that's not really my problem in the long run.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chris v

I've never heard any Chris Botti, so I don't know how to answer that. Also, I'm not sure what "mainstream" jazz is. In general, my taste falls towards the old-skool bop, cool jazz, & west-coast scene. I grew up surrounded by Miles, Monk, Mingus, Baker, Getz, Parker, Bird, etc. I don't tend to do fusion as much, & I don't keep up with developments in the genre as a whole.

Again, I was not being very serious when I created this thread. If I've offended your sensibilities by having a bit of fun, well, that's not really my problem in the long run.

No offense caused, I'm glad you created this thread. I love talking about music as a whole...

Botti's CDs are available to listen to in iTunes and on his website, if you are interested. If you are interested in fusion, I can give you a listening list... I've been listening to a lot of it lately