[typoon]

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14803774.htm

The Commission on Human Relations said it would insist on removal of a "Speak English" sign at the cheesesteak shop.
By Mitch Lipka
Inquirer Staff Writer

One of South Philadelphia's biggest names in cheesesteaks is in a bit of a legal pickle for a lunch-line political statement against immigrants who don't speak English.

The city's Commission on Human Relations yesterday filed a discrimination complaint against Geno's Steaks over signs that read: "This is AMERICA ... WHEN ORDERING SPEAK ENGLISH."

Owner Joey Vento has become a mini-celebrity over the issue and has steadfastly refused to pull down the signs despite the growing legal brouhaha. His son, Geno, said his father would not comment on the matter to The Inquirer.

Reached at his home yesterday evening, the Rev. James S. Allen Sr., commission chairman, said it was incumbent on the commission to get the sign removed.

"We think it is discriminatory, and we are concerned about the image of Philadelphia," he said.

According to the complaint, which was served on Geno's yesterday afternoon, the restaurant is in violation of two sections of the city's antidiscrimination laws: denying service to someone because of his or her national origin, and having printed material making certain groups of people feel their patronage is unwelcome.

In two weeks in the media spotlight, Vento - who has done a whirlwind of local and national talk shows - has defended the sign and said he had no intention of removing it.

He has said it is an immigrant's duty to learn the language and has acknowledged that his strong feelings were directed at Mexican immigrants, whose ranks are growing in South Philadelphia.

Vento, 66, said that the sign had been up for six months without complaint until recently and that it simply spoke to the notion that people who choose to live in this country should endeavor to speak English. He has made a point of saying he had never denied anyone service regardless of language.

But Allen said that didn't matter.

"The issue is not whether anyone has been denied service, but that such a sign discourages people from coming asking for service," he said.

Vento's son said yesterday his father would not comment on the issue to members of the print media on the advice of legal counsel.

Allen said the complaint begins a legal process that could subject Geno's to sanctions if the sign is not removed. It was not immediately clear how severe a penalty Geno's could be subject to if the complaint is found to be valid and an order to remove the sign is ignored. Rachel Lawton, acting executive director of the commission, did not return repeated calls seeking clarification and comment.

An investigation will begin, Allen said, and Vento will be afforded an opportunity to respond to the complaint. Then the two sides are supposed to get together to resolve their differences.

If the issue is not resolved, Allen said, a public hearing will be scheduled. The process, he said, could continue beyond that and has no certain time parameters.

"It depends on what his response is," Allen said.

The American Civil Liberties Union said that Vento had a right to express his opinions, regardless of how offensive they might be, but that his particular message might cross the line because of specific laws intended to make so-called public accommodations available to everyone.

Public opinion on both the Geno's episode and the larger issue of immigrants speaking the language of the land has been split. The Pew Hispanic Center last week drew attention to a poll that showed a large majority of immigrant Hispanics want to learn English.

City Councilman Jim Kenney said it was time for Vento to back down. He asked the cheesesteak wiz to take down the sign before the matter escalated.

"I asked for consideration, and the consideration was rebuffed," Kenney said yesterday. "I just think it's mean-spirited and divisive, and it's not good for the city's image."

I say way to Go Geno's!!! If poeple don't like then go elsewhere to eat.

[Dakar]

I'm not sure I quite understand what the formal complaint falls under, because I understand it, you have a right to refuse service to anyone (Not unlike, no shoes, no shirt, though I'm not sure if that's health related).

The answer probably lies in:
"The issue is not whether anyone has been denied service, but that such a sign discourages people from coming asking for service," he said.

But I'm not sure he's saying anything other than Vento is is losing customers because of the sign, which is his choice to make.

Personally, I think the language thing is a moot point till some type of official language is installed, but I like what Vento conveyed:

Vento, 66, said that the sign had been up for six months without complaint until recently and that it simply spoke to the notion that people who choose to live in this country should endeavor to speak English. He has made a point of saying he had never denied anyone service regardless of language.

I can't disagree with any of that.

Also, good to see the ACLU on the right side:

"The American Civil Liberties Union said that Vento had a right to express his opinions, regardless of how offensive they might be"

[stevesnj]

I go to Genos and Pats and they are harsh rivals, Genos has had sagging profits while Pats has had increased profits. This is nothing but a publicity stunt pure and simple.

[davesimondotcom]

According to the complaint, which was served on Geno's yesterday afternoon, the restaurant is in violation of two sections of the city's antidiscrimination laws: denying service to someone because of his or her national origin, and having printed material making certain groups of people feel their patronage is unwelcome.

First, I don't see how speaking English has anything to do with their "national origin."

Second, "having printed material making certain groups of people feel their patronage is unwelcome." Wonder if they mean something like "No Smoking."

[zmcgill]

According to the complaint, which was served on Geno's yesterday afternoon, the restaurant is in violation of two sections of the city's antidiscrimination laws: denying service to someone because of his or her national origin...

"The issue is not whether anyone has been denied service...

Something doesn't add up here.

[SpaceMonkey]

Pretty silly. It always amazes me that local governments get into these kinds of scraps that seem doomed from the start, at least in the court of public opinion.

[ironknee]

god who eles is hungry for a cheese steak right now...mmmmm

[cpt kangarooski]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I'm not sure I quite understand what the formal complaint falls under, because I understand it, you have a right to refuse service to anyone

You do, but not for any reason. For example, it's against the law to deny service to someone simply because they are black. Of course an individual can refuse to deal with people for any reason, but businesses are considerably more regulated.

Also, good to see the ACLU on the right side:

AFAIK they're almost always on the right side. In fact, I can't think of a time when they haven't been, off the top of my head. N.b. that here they supported his right to speak out, but also that his business might still be breaking the law.

[Spliffdaddy]

"The American Civil Liberties Union has asked a judge to dismiss what it calls an "unconstitutional" lawsuit against a national pedophile organization being sued in a wrongful death case after two of the group's members brutally raped and murdered a 10-year-old boy."

Actually, the ACLU has probably never been on "the right side". What world do you live in?

I could post these sort of articles all day long and well into next week.

So don't try to sell that BS to me.

[Rumor]

What comes before the second amendment?

[Uncle Skeleton]

sounds almost like the start of a dirty joke

[King Bob On The Cob]

Here's the problem, where do we draw the line? Do we need to require everyone in this country to learn every language so we can provide for anyone and everyone in the country who wants to participate in trade, but cannot speak your language?

[Rumor]

What about requiring 3 or 4 languages?

[Y3a]

How is a sign in english gonna stop them from at least coming into the place?

It's like the "NO DOGS ALLOWED - Except Seeing Eye Dogs" sign.... Who's that for?

Ya just can't fix STUPID!

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by Rumor

What about requiring 3 or 4 languages?

That's going to help the Romanians that complain that they can't be served how? It's just not possible to serve everyone in their own language without excluding someone. Modifying your way of life to include more people, but still excluding some is just as bad, if not worse, because then you're saying "We're willing to help people who don't know our language, but you're not important enough for me to learn how to communicate with you"

[Spliffdaddy]

If you're in America and you don't speak English - ordering a sandwich is going to be the very least of your problems.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

What kind of English is cheesesteak or cheesedog anyway? Lazy man expressions.

[voodoo]

This smells of a bad publicity stunt. I'm sure they'd be more than pleased to take money from rich Spanish tourists though they can't speak a word in English.

V

[RAILhead]

I wouldn't mine having a cheesedog right now.

[cpt kangarooski]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

"The American Civil Liberties Union has asked a judge to dismiss what it calls an "unconstitutional" lawsuit against a national pedophile organization being sued in a wrongful death case after two of the group's members brutally raped and murdered a 10-year-old boy."

Actually, the ACLU has probably never been on "the right side". What world do you live in?

I live in the world where the ACLU defended Korematsu and Scopes, helped Brown in Brown v. Bd. of Ed., and Roe in Roe v. Wade, and the Nazis in NSP v. Skokie. The ACLU are very good guys. If they have one failing, it's that they don't do enough. Frankly, I can't even imagine how anyone could be opposed to an organization that is solely dedicated toward protecting our civil liberties.

[Spliffdaddy]

lol. Like I was saying, the ACLU has never been on the right side of any dispute.

[cpt kangarooski]

So you're saying that you support the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW2, support laws banning the teaching of evolution in public schools, support racial segregation in schools (possibly elsewhere too), are against abortion rights, and are against free speech.

So basically, you're a tremendous asshole bigot. I guess that's good to know. And, as your opponent, I hope you have what you'd consider to be a shitty life, full of peace, equality, justice, liberty, and tolerance.

[Spliffdaddy]

Only if you support child-murdering pedophiles, NAMBLA, Nazis, and funeral protesters.

I mean, that's what you're saying.

And why are liberals always wishing for punishment to befall those who disagree with them?

I think that's the difference between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives wish the best life possible for everybody - and liberals just want certain people to suffer miserably.

Conservative = happy person

Liberal = unhappy person who wants to share the misery.


I might be unhappy someday, but it won't be this week. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow morning. Cruise, beaches, concert, and an evening with seven pretty young ladies in a 10 passenger stretch limo.

[cpt kangarooski]

Actually, no, it's not. Your reading comprehension must be poor. According to what you posted, the ACLU isn't defending the murderers, it's defending the organization to which they belonged. There is a difference.

For example, maybe they were also Republicans. Does this mean that the Republican party is also culpable, just because they're members? No. There has to be more of a connection than that. So far you haven't shown one.

Of course, as it happens, the ACLU won with regards to the organization, although more on procedural grounds than substantive, since that was easier (and courts and clients both like easy solutions when possible). The plaintiffs have moved on to suing specific members instead, which is at least a step up. That was over 3 years ago. If anything's happened since, I haven't heard of it. So I'm curious as to why you'd bother bringing it up, being old news. Do you not have anything more recent to baselessly bitch about?

The best part about the case, however, is this:

Robert Curley [the boy's father] was previously represented by attorney Harvey Silverglate, a Massachusetts ACLU board member and First Amendment absolutist, in a dispute with the City of Cambridge over mandatory diversity training. He is surprisingly sympathetic to the ACLU's opposition to his lawsuit: "I really do have a lot of respect for them," Curley told The Boston Globe. "They are very consistent in who they defend. It takes a lot of nerve to defend the groups they have over the years. They have a lot of courage."

[PacHead]

All stores in the US should have similiar signs. I ignore all ignorant people in the US who refuse to speak English. They wouldn't even get the time of day from me.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Y3a

How is a sign in english gonna stop them from at least coming into the place?

If they can't speak it, more than likely they can't read it either.

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

and Roe in Roe v. Wade

You need to talk to "Roe" about that instance if you think they helped her.

[cpt kangarooski]

Kevin--
I expect that she was glad for the help at the time. It's a little too much to expect the ACLU to be able to predict whether or not clients will have a change of heart years after the case ends. None of us can see the future.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

Kevin--
I expect that she was glad for the help at the time. It's a little too much to expect the ACLU to be able to predict whether or not clients will have a change of heart years after the case ends. None of us can see the future.

Go read what she has to say about the matter.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/roe...s/roe.profile/

McCorvey, (Roe) who was 21 when the case was filed and was on her third pregnancy, never had an abortion and gave birth to a girl, who was given up for adoption.

Perhaps she may have felt left out by some of the pro-choice groups in connection with the ongoing debate," she said.

That is exactly what McCorvey says about the pro-choice leaders. "They could have been nice to me instead of treating me like an idiot," she said.

"I don't hate them any more like I used to," she said. "I just don't like them very much."

She was basically a pawn.

[cpt kangarooski]

She was basically a pawn.

Actually, since she was talking about "the ongoing debate" it sounds as though she was upset that she wasn't among their ranks after the case ended. Given her history, I'm not all that surprised. According to the article she isn't in the anti-abortion leadership either. She might be a useful symbol for them, but that seems to be it.

As for during the case, the general practice is that clients own the strategic decisions (e.g. do they want to go to court, what do they want, how far are they willing to go to get it) while lawyers own the tactical decisions (i.e. how specifically to best accomplish the goals set by the client). The lawyers work for the client, so he can always make decisions that require a change in tactics, and he should be kept informed of what's going on. But usually the lawyers have quite a bit of leeway in carrying out their marching orders, so long as the client is ultimately in charge.

[Y3a]

Didn't the ACLU come to Rush Limbaughs aid recently??

[olePigeon]

Here's my official... *sniff* official stance... *sniff* on... *sniff* *ahem* Official stance on the issue. I think the ACLU should... *sniff* should... *sniff* Mmmmmm. Cheesesteaks.

[Buckaroo]

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mo...d/14857694.htm

STOCKTON, Calif. - A mother who watched her 6-year-old son plunge 90 feet to his death from the top of a Ferris wheel said the boy was dangling as she tried in vain to get the operator to bring the car down.

"There was nothing I could do," said Sophia Castillo, 24. "He was so far up there."

Ruben Castillo dangled for about 40 seconds before falling at the San Joaquin County Fair on Sunday, authorities said.

She believes her son, who was riding alone, panicked and tried to climb out of the car. She screamed at the operator to bring her son's car to the bottom but he only spoke Spanish and didn't understand her, she said.

[voodoo]

A sad story. She should have yelled 'para!'. If only she had had rudimentary knowledge of Spanish. It is only the second language of the US.

V

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by voodoo

A sad story. She should have yelled 'para!'. If only she had had rudimentary knowledge of Spanish. It is only the second language of the US.

V

B.S. English is the ONLY language. NO ONE should be required to know ANY Mexican.

The little circus will pay millions and be bankrupt on this lawsuit. It'll teach them a lesson for not requireing their attendants to speak fluent English.

[Buckaroo]

All Illegal aliens should be rounded up and loaded on cattle cars (the same way they got in) and after spending a couple months in jail, and classified as a felon, returned to the Southern tip of South America. Any one caught a second time, should be jailed for a minimum of 1 year, tagged with an electronic device, and then shipped the Southern tip of Africa. It is time to take action. All medical bills incurred should be sent to the Mexican government for payment. If payment for all medical bills are not paid, then we should take the California Peninsula for payment.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by voodoo

A sad story. She should have yelled 'para!'. If only she had had rudimentary knowledge of Spanish. It is only the second language of the US.

V

The Ferris Wheel operator is in this country HE SHOULD KNOW SOME ENGLISH. Why should the woman have to know some "Spanish?" It's not the United States of Mexico.

If you come to this country at least learn the language. If you go to other countries to work they won't cater to you just because you CAN'T speak their language. YOU HAVE TO learn their language. It should be the same here.

For those who feel that we should allow the illegals into this country maybe we should stop them at the border. See if they can speak and understand some English. If they illegal immigrant is able to speak english then we will allow them to work in this country. If not they get sent right back.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by typoon

The Ferris Wheel operator is in this country HE SHOULD KNOW SOME ENGLISH. Why should the woman have to know some "Spanish?" It's not the United States of Mexico.

Because more than 10% of people in the US speak Spanish. Everybody should know a second language and languages like French or German are an utter waste of time. Especially when you live in the US.

Don't tell me your US education system isn't up to teaching the fundamentals of a second language.. or some crap the English is all you have to ever know.

V

[typoon]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Because more than 10% of people in the US speak Spanish. Everybody should know a second language and languages like French or German are an utter waste of time. Especially when you live in the US.

Don't tell me your US education system isn't up to teaching the fundamentals of a second language.. or some crap the English is all you have to ever know.

V

Hell in some places they can't even teach the fundamentals of English.

That doesn't matter. Most business is done in English. IN America we Speak English. English SHOULD be learned if people want to work here.

[Y3a]

It's a TWO WAY STREET. Why don't the immigrants LEARN ENGLISH? Why are they coming here? We have enough lazy people here already. Those with hands out and hiring lawyers to protect them from their own stupidity. (ever READ the number of safety stickers on the side of a 12 foot ladder?)

[Kevin]

Too lazy to learn our language, too lazy to live here.

When I went to Argentina I learned a bit of Spanish.

Hell when I went to Canada, I even learned to say eh a lot.

[voodoo]

Well, good luck on teaching the immigrants English.. and good luck on your Spanish. In another ten years, I wonder how many people speak native Spanish in the US.

It is 10.7% now. Half of these speak very good English according to a census.

More than 25% of Californians speak Spanish at home. I'd say, prepare yourselves Americans. You're heading straight into becoming a bilingual country. Like Belgium. Or something

V

[Kevin]

A new law will be passed before that happens.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

B.S. English is the ONLY language. NO ONE should be required to know ANY Mexican.

That would be Spanish. Not to mention the U.S. does not have an official language. Deal with it.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by voodoo

It is 10.7% now. Half of these speak very good English according to a census.

Unfortunately, less than 1% of Americans speak English well.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That would be Spanish. Not to mention the U.S. does not have an official language. Deal with it.

ACTUALLY, it isn't "Spanish" -- it *is* Mexican. The language you hear from Mexicans in the States as well as in Mexico is quite different than the true Spanish language. I even had a teacher back in High School (Señor Torres) that would constantly point out that we weren't learning "Spanish" because the language had blended with so many others in Mexico, that it really was almost new.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

ACTUALLY, it isn't "Spanish" -- it *is* Mexican. The language you hear from Mexicans in the States as well as in Mexico is quite different than the true Spanish language. I even had a teacher back in High School (Señor Torres) that would constantly point out that we weren't learning "Spanish" because the language had blended with so many others in Mexico, that it really was almost new.

Well.. it isn't Castellano. Mexican Spanish is as much Spanish as American English is English.. make of that what you will

The grammar are the same, the spelling the same, but it is heavily laced with colloquial words and some local difference in vocabulary and pronounciation. A person who only knows Castellano will certainly understand most things said in Mexico, but there will be phrases and words unknown to him as well as a difference in pronounciation.

A whole new language.. mmmm I know what Sr. Torres means. I suppose one can view it as such, although it only takes a few days to adapt between Mexican Spanish and Castellano. A dialect of Castellano is perhaps a better description.

V

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That would be Spanish. Not to mention the U.S. does not have an official language. Deal with it.

Haven't followed politics much lately have you? A law that is making English the official language went through the Senate a few weeks back.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

ACTUALLY, it isn't "Spanish" -- it *is* Mexican. The language you hear from Mexicans in the States as well as in Mexico is quite different than the true Spanish language. I even had a teacher back in High School (Señor Torres) that would constantly point out that we weren't learning "Spanish" because the language had blended with so many others in Mexico, that it really was almost new.

No, it's Spanish. Just like English in America isn't "American." It may be a different dialect, but it's still Spanish. Maybe a more appropriate term could be "Mexican Spanish," as English in Britain is sometimes referred to "British English" by Americans (i.e. colour vs. color)

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

Haven't followed politics much lately have you? A law that is making English the official language went through the Senate a few weeks back.

That happens every year. I would be surprised if it passes.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Well, good luck on teaching the immigrants English.. and good luck on your Spanish. In another ten years, I wonder how many people speak native Spanish in the US.

It is 10.7% now. Half of these speak very good English according to a census.

More than 25% of Californians speak Spanish at home. I'd say, prepare yourselves Americans. You're heading straight into becoming a bilingual country. Like Belgium. Or something

V

B.S. Not that many speak Mexican in California. I live here and I only speak English, and everyone I know only speak English.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

B.S. Not that many speak Mexican in California. I live here and I only speak English, and everyone I know only speak English.

It is called Spanish and it is 25% in the year 2000 census.

8,105,505 people, comprising 25% of the California population. More by now. See for yourself

Choose Spanish and California from the pull-down menus and you get this nice map and everything! A quarter of the people of California are Spanish speakers. Simple as that.

V