[DigitalEl]

So Finder looks like iTunes, but with Aqua scrollbars.

Brushed metal is gone in favor of the "unified" look.

And some highlighted items are not the Aqua blue or graphite, but more of an iTunes-shade of grey.

And WTF is this?



Anyone still think we're getting a completely new UI for Leopard or are we going with what we saw today was 100% feature complete?

I thought all the disparate elements would be unified under Leopard. My bad, apparently.

[Big Mac]

Aside from minor changes, this is it.

[Kerrigan]

Ya, this is it. I have a feeling that the menus will be tweaked a bit, and made more consistent, and the menubar may undergo a minor revision, but most likely this is it.

[DigitalEl]

I'm disappointed we're not getting a dark "Illuminous" UI like the pro apps and iPhone. Perfect example of expecting too much. Apple never said such a UI was coming. It's just that so many amateur pundits were reading the proverbial tea leaves and predicted that such a move was coming.

Oh well. Another two years of unmatching interface elements it is.

Leopard's still gonna rock.

[moonmonkey]

"Every window has a consistent design theme, and active applications are even more distinct, casting deeper shadows."

Apple - Mac OS X Leopard - Features - Desktop

Seems unified to me.

[lpkmckenna]

Changes to Dock: cool
Unified all over: cool

Translucent menu-bar: crap.
Scroll-bars: uh, I was hoping for something new. Oh well.

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

Changes to Dock: Sweet!
Unified look: Still needs some working on (ie scroll bars)
Translucent menu bar: Teh Sexy!

[DigitalEl]

I guess the scrollbars are the really offensive part. If those were iTunes grey to match the Sidebar highlight, I'd be satisfied. As it is, it looks like they just forgot to get to them and left the old Aqua bits behind.

I can live with the rest, but yeah, those scrollbars... Ugh!

And agreed on the Dock changes... Nice. The translucent Menu bar just looks harder to read.

[Peter]

just lame, totally rushed. n:

[brokenjago]

How so, peter?

[CaptainHaddock]

I don't think you can call a beta "rushed". If the interface quirks persist in October, then it's a reasonable assessment.

[WJMoore]

"Marketing" the fact that they added an alpha channel to the menu bar as a new feature is the biggest load I've ever heard. Not only that, I think it looks like pretty cheap as well. I thought we'd moved on from the "ooh we can do transparency" phase now. 10.0 had semi-transparent title bars on inactive windows and they got killed because it didn't rate well in the usability stakes.

[P]

The translucent menu bar is the only blatantly stupid new element. The background is white to increase contrast towards the black text - it's not like it's hard to just remove the menubar and just put the text on the desktop.

Piles look good though - tabbed folders from OS 8, only prettier.

[Visnaut]

If the translucent menubar had a highlight on top half, it'd look much better. That's the only thing I don't like about it.

Other than that, I think this is a great release. Stacks look great, the new dock looks pretty cool.

And we finally got a new Finder! I can't believe that after all that clamouring for a new Finder, we get it, and I don't hear anyone rejoicing. It's looks like a really good update to it! I think that's what I'm looking forward to the most.

Now does anyone else notice in this screenshot that the reflections in the dock don't appear to be reflecting the shadows in the icons? You can notice it in the GarageBand most of all. It looks like it's just reflecting the icon content, not the shadow.

Unless I'm just imagining it, or they have a new icon format (maybe you can include a custom "reflection" icon), then I'm not sure how they're doing it.

[JonoMarshall]

the reflections in the dock don't appear to be reflecting the shadows in the icons?

The shadow is as if you're shining a torch from your eye on to the icon, which creates a shadow behind the icon on the reflective surface, the reflection is only of the icon as you cannot see past the reflected surface (due to it bouncing your eye upwards) to the shadows beyond.

^ Brain strain there I'm afraid, I have the lost the ability to explain anything, but hope it helps.
(I imagine they apply a drop shadow effect to the .icns files and also reflect it, there's only one .icns file after all!)

[- - e r i k - -]

For FCUKs sake people. The transparent menu bar is OPTIONAL. How many times have this been mentioned already?

[k squared]

Anyone else think that Cover Flow in the Finder is preparing us for Multi-Touch on a MacBook or desktop? Seems like a natural to me.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

For FCUKs sake people. The transparent menu bar is OPTIONAL. How many times have this been mentioned already?

It is default ugliness. All Apple had to do was add an auto-hide option if they really wanted less visibility up there.

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by Visnaut 

And we finally got a new Finder!
I can't believe that after all that clamouring for a new Finder, we get it, and I don't hear anyone rejoicing. It's looks like a really good update to it! I think that's what I'm looking forward to the most.

Well, I'll believe it when I see it -- fixed Finder, that is.
I know it's gonna be a new Finder, with much more eyecandy, and it's probably gonna use a boatload of RAM (ever watched iTunes RAM usage go up when you go into Coverflow?), and displaying document preview for (almost) all types of documents is not going to make it any faster...

but if the Finder keeps not updating file changed dates in list views, I won't be happy.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Happens every freakin' time. People on here bitch and complain that Apple isn't updating their software, the OS is getting dated, "we want a new Finder", "we hate brushed metal", etc. Apple shows off their newest OS (with no brushed metal, NEW Finder, NEW features, etc.) and people start bitching that they didn't do it right, "this sucks", "this is rushed", "why did they do that", etc. Hilarious...

Personally, from the videos and screenshots, I think the new Finder, menu bar, dock, etc. look nice. Who freakin' cares if the scrollbars are Aqua????

[CKr]

It took me a while to really understand what Apple was doing here with the menu bar and I think I finally got it. It actually reminded me of when Microsoft first revealed their glass interface with thicker borders, only they "feel lightweight because you can see through them." In my opinion glass feels heavy and awkward. This change, on the other hand, seems elegant and purposeful. This really does make the desktop feel lightweight and clean. No huge window borders, no huge menubar; your workspace is your area. I really think Apple wants the user to feel uncluttered, and they actually do it unlike the other guys. I'm keeping an open mind knowing (or thinking) that Apple has an idea as to what they are doing. :-)

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Happens every freakin' time. People on here bitch and complain that Apple isn't updating their software, the OS is getting dated, "we want a new Finder", "we hate brushed metal", etc. Apple shows off their newest OS (with no brushed metal, NEW Finder, NEW features, etc.) and people start bitching that they didn't do it right, "this sucks", "this is rushed", "why did they do that", etc. Hilarious...

Is it hilarious? Because those features should have existed since Mac OS X 10.0 so it's completely understandable that people discard it as a non-feature. People have wanted a consistent UI and a good Finder since day 1. That it took 6 versions for Apple to bring this to us is alright...but, Apple, don't tout these things as features.

There's absolutely nothing new with what Apple showed us yesterday. Except maybe Stacks. Everything else is stuff that was already shown before or minor graphics tweaks that should have existed since 10.0.

I and others have mocked up iTunes-like Finder interfaces 5 years ago. Why did it take Apple so long?

The Keynote was insulting. You, mrjinglesusa, got slapped in the face by it but you're too numb with ignorance to know it.

[- - e r i k - -]

Oh Horsepoo!! As always living up to your name.

[jasong]

Horsepoo, why didn't you and others release your iTunes/Finder mockups? I would have gladly run your mockup on my Mac, I would even have installed it on my friends Macs. I bet a mockup of the Finder wouldn't even use much RAM. What's that? Your mockup isn't a functioning application that nearly every single Mac application can interface with? It's just construction paper and crayons? Hmm . . . Maybe that explains the time frame differences between your mockup and Apple's Finder.

Maybe, just maybe, Apple took this long because they had an idea of what they wanted to do and that required certain functionality that would not be coming until later OS versions, and rather than waste time and energy slapping something together that would need to be rebuilt two years later, they decided to wait. It sucks when the real world gets in the way of your paper cutout Finder mockup, but that's the way it works. Is the 10.0-10.4.x Finder perfect? Nope, but it gets the job done and Apple made the decision to do incremental upgrades until such time the foundation they wanted to build the new Finder off of was ready

[Visnaut]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Because those features should have existed since Mac OS X 10.0

Yeah, hindsight is great isn't it? Look at OS that started development about 8 years ago, running on much inferior hardware, and project that today's features should have existed back then when people didn't even know a problem existed to be fixed. Brilliant.

I should have had protected memory in 1991. I'm not crying about it.

[MacosNerd]

I don't think its a lame rushed interface. It seems to be decent. I can only say seems until I start using it. Just viewing screen shots never really does any justice.

All the complaining here is also normal. No matter what the change is, people will not like it, want the old stuff, or something completely new.

[Visnaut]

Originally Posted by workerbee 

Well, I'll believe it when I see it -- fixed Finder, that is.
I know it's gonna be a new Finder, with much more eyecandy, and it's probably gonna use a boatload of RAM (ever watched iTunes RAM usage go up when you go into Coverflow?), and displaying document preview for (almost) all types of documents is not going to make it any faster...

but if the Finder keeps not updating file changed dates in list views, I won't be happy.

Yeah, that I can understand. I do hope they've fixed all of the nagging bugs with the Finder such as that one, instead of just glossing it over.

But things like CoverFlow do take up a lot of resources. Maybe they've improved the memory usage, I wouldn't know. But advanced features like that are just things I won't use on older machines. I've got Tiger loaded up on a G4 400 Powerbook, but I don't use Dashboard or Coverflow on there.

I prefer them taking full advantage of new hardware capabilities to provide a better interface rather than catering to old hardware and getting a half-baked set of features.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Visnaut 

Yeah, hindsight is great isn't it? Look at OS that started development about 8 years ago, running on much inferior hardware, and project that today's features should have existed back then when people didn't even know a problem existed to be fixed. Brilliant.

I should have had protected memory in 1991. I'm not crying about it.

I agree its ludicrous to say in 2007 what features should have been in 10.0. Heck, if apple was on their game they should have implemented aqua in system 7

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

People have wanted a consistent UI and a good Finder since day 1.

No,"people" haven't. Some people--a small, vocal minority--have been bitching about the UI/Finder since day one. Most people, including people like me, who have been using Macs since the original 128k Mac in 1984, have never had much of a problem with either the Finder or the UI.

One of the things I've learned from 23 years in and around Macs is that no matter what Apple does, someone will complain and act like it's the end of the world.

[P]

With the new Finder in 10.0, Apple removed a lot of features that had been in OS 9 and OS X Server 1.2 without replacing them with anything that worked, for no reason except that they wanted to make a splash with something that looked good. Since then, they have added back features to fill the holes that they left back then - for all of those, people tend to say that it should have been in 10.0. They're not wrong. Few of the features - Exposé is one - add something that wasn't in 9.x. In some cases the replacement is better than the feature in OS 9 - like the Menu Extras for the Control Strip - but they still tend to get that comment. I'm mostly happy with X now, since 10.2 or so, but there are things that I miss from 9.

As for the menu bar: The most readable combination is black on white or white on black. In computers, transparency is "cool" because it is hard to do. For paper, transparency is easy - opacity is hard - so transparency is something negative. Making something transparent when it might serve a purpose - such as a window that you might want to look through - is good. Making it transparent when it doesn't hurt a lot can be nice - the Dock is such an example, because the text still has a background and the Icons are big enough - but is usually fairly neutral. Making the menu bar transparent is idiotic - it will be harder to read and decrease usability for no gain - you don't have stuff behind the menu bar anyway, and even if you could it would only be a few pixels high.

And defaults count, so even if I can turn it off it's a stupid idea.

I'm thrilled that they're remaking the Finder. I'm thrilled that i'm getting my tabbed windows back, and they can call them Piles if they think that that sounds cooler. I love that they finally seem to be fixing the network layer of the Finder and that Brushed Metal has been banished. But these are mostly duh! moments, and when they do something like that stupid menu bar at the same time, I get annoyed because I know that flash has won out over usability again.

For the record: I think the blue scrollbars are OK. The menu selection is the same blue, isn't it?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

What ever happened to iLife?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by P 

For the record: I think the blue scrollbars are OK. The menu selection is the same blue, isn't it?

It isn't so much the colour but the old school 10.0 Nyquil Gel caps look to them. They should be flatter, wider and darker.

[shinykaro]

Originally Posted by k squared 

Anyone else think that Cover Flow in the Finder is preparing us for Multi-Touch on a MacBook or desktop? Seems like a natural to me.

YES! I am so glad you said that. It's that, and the way the files fan out from the dock stacks. Reminds me of some cool multi-touch demos I saw a while back. I doubt these similarities are lost on anyone at Apple.

Probably won't happen anytime soon though.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Is it hilarious? Because those features should have existed since Mac OS X 10.0 so it's completely understandable that people discard it as a non-feature. People have wanted a consistent UI and a good Finder since day 1. That it took 6 versions for Apple to bring this to us is alright...but, Apple, don't tout these things as features.

There's absolutely nothing new with what Apple showed us yesterday. Except maybe Stacks. Everything else is stuff that was already shown before or minor graphics tweaks that should have existed since 10.0.

I and others have mocked up iTunes-like Finder interfaces 5 years ago. Why did it take Apple so long?

The Keynote was insulting. You, mrjinglesusa, got slapped in the face by it but you're too numb with ignorance to know it.

Here's the thing horsesh*t. Apple is a multi-billion dollar company with people A LOT smarter than you running it. Do you think, just maybe, that Apple and Jobs might know what they are doing and why they only talked about Leopard yesterday? Is it possible that the engineers and management at Apple have a reason why they didn't change the Finder until now?

Nothing new? Stacks is new, transparent menu bar is new, dock is new, Finder is new, Quicklook is new. Until you have actually USED these things, you cannot say for sure that they are not features.

What I find hilarious is that people on this board think they know more about OS design, implementation, and business management that the people at Apple. You found the keynote "insulting" because they didn't announce things YOU wanted them to. Boo-hoo, no new hardware. They didn't do things in the OS that YOU wanted them to. Boo-hoo. Big freakin' deal - get over yourself and your "Apple should do it my way"/"Apple should have done this years ago" attitude. If you don't like the way Apple is doing things, try Vista.

And to preempt the people like you who think I blindly defend Apple, I'm a shareholder, and Apple has been very good to me the past year and a half (since about $40/share). Seems to me they are doing something right, whether you like it or not.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

What I find hilarious is that people on this board think they know more about OS design, implementation, and business management that the people at Apple.

Similar to how Apple thinks it knows more about OS design and implementation than Microsoft despite having less than a tenth as many users.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Similar to how Apple thinks it knows more about OS design and implementation than Microsoft despite having less than a tenth as many users.

Ummm, no. That's hardly the same thing.

[JonoMarshall]

And to preempt the people like you who think I blindly defend Apple, I'm a shareholder, and Apple has been very good to me the past year and a half (since about $40/share). Seems to me they are doing something right, whether you like it or not.

Didn't your shares go down a pretty penny or two after *ahem* Mr Jobs presented his underwhelming keynote?

Not that Apple isn't great but you know...

[mini.boss]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

What I find hilarious is that people on this board think they know more about OS design, implementation, and business management that the people at Apple.

End users having an opinion on what they expect out of the products they buy? How dare they!

Honestly, it's a shame that the most vocal of the Mac community are the ones that feel Apple is always right. This is a consumer product so why is it that these people get upset when consumer's give a consumer opinion? It may seem like whining, but developers prefer the opinions of the "complainers" over the people who keep telling them the product is perfect.

[besson3c]

About the only visual feature I was looking forward to was resolution independence... I guess we'll see whether or not it was axed.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Didn't your shares go down a pretty penny or two after *ahem* Mr Jobs presented his underwhelming keynote?

Not that Apple isn't great but you know...

Not unexpected - happens after every keynote just like a run up happens before every keynote. Investors were probably expecting some new hardware announcements and, since none were made, a little "correction" occurred.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by mini.boss 

End users having an opinion on what they expect out of the products they buy? How dare they!

Honestly, it's a shame that the most vocal of the Mac community are the ones that feel Apple is always right. This is a consumer product so why is it that these people get upset when consumer's give a consumer opinion? It may seem like whining, but developers prefer the opinions of the "complainers" over the people who keep telling them the product is perfect.

It's not a matter of end users having an "opnion" on what they expect out of the products they buy. The situation that occurs here and on every Mac board is same before and after EVERY keynote.

BEFORE: Threads about what will be announced, what people hope will be announced, etc. "We need new iMacs announced!". "I want a new Finder announced!".

AFTER: "OMG, no new hardware! Apple is not a computer company anymore." "OMG, that Finder is horrible! Where is my XXXX? Apple dropped the ball on this one."

Thing is, after the new OS gets released, people stop complaining (for the most part) because it turns out to be everything they hoped for and more. Then, a year of so later, people start to speculate what will appear in the next interation and the whole cycle repeats itself.

Having an opinion is one thing, deriding Apple simply because they did not implement something you wanted or the WAY you wanted it implemented is another (I mean "you" in a general sense). Like I said, Apple has some pretty smart people coding their OS and some pretty smart people running the show.

Personally, I like what they are doing and the direction they are going and I think these people know what they are doing a lot more than geeks posting on a Mac message board.

There are how many MILLIONS of people running OS X? How can anyone expect that Apple will be able to release an OS that has everything that everyone wants? For each interface you (again, generally) like, there are probably thousands of people who will hate it. For every person who likes the new Finder, they is someone else who hates it. There is no such thing as a perfect OS and there never will be.

Would I like to see a snazzy new interface that blows my socks off and is user friendly along with 300+ features that are innovative and increase productivity 200%? Sure. Am I pissed that I didn't get it? Nope.

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by Visnaut 

But things like CoverFlow do take up a lot of resources. (snip)
I prefer them taking full advantage of new hardware capabilities to provide a better interface rather than catering to old hardware and getting a half-baked set of features.

Fine by me... if they also a) get the functionality (finally) right and, to a lesser degree, b) if the new-fangled UI stuff not only uses resources, but also is useful.

I'm not really sure about either at the moment, as I would not put it past Apple to ignore the Finder's sore spots and, as you rightly say, gloss them over with eye candy, and also don't see the big advantage of CoverFlow for me (will my thousands of .html and .php documents render and preview in the Finder?).

Time will tell

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

It's not a matter of end users having an "opnion" on what they expect out of the products they buy. The situation that occurs here and on every Mac board is same before and after EVERY keynote.

BEFORE: Threads about what will be announced, what people hope will be announced, etc. "We need new iMacs announced!". "I want a new Finder announced!".

AFTER: "OMG, no new hardware! Apple is not a computer company anymore." "OMG, that Finder is horrible! Where is my XXXX? Apple dropped the ball on this one."

Thing is, after the new OS gets released, people stop complaining (for the most part) because it turns out to be everything they hoped for and more. Then, a year of so later, people start to speculate what will appear in the next interation and the whole cycle repeats itself.

Having an opinion is one thing, deriding Apple simply because they did not implement something you wanted or the WAY you wanted it implemented is another (I mean "you" in a general sense). Like I said, Apple has some pretty smart people coding their OS and some pretty smart people running the show.

Personally, I like what they are doing and the direction they are going and I think these people know what they are doing a lot more than geeks posting on a Mac message board.

There are how many MILLIONS of people running OS X? How can anyone expect that Apple will be able to release an OS that has everything that everyone wants? For each interface you (again, generally) like, there are probably thousands of people who will hate it. For every person who likes the new Finder, they is someone else who hates it. There is no such thing as a perfect OS and there never will be.

Would I like to see a snazzy new interface that blows my socks off and is user friendly along with 300+ features that are innovative and increase productivity 200%? Sure. Am I pissed that I didn't get it? Nope.

No new iMac announced, am I complaining? No.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

About the only visual feature I was looking forward to was resolution independence... I guess we'll see whether or not it was axed.

I really don't think it was or why they would have.

[P]

Resolution independence is still in - it was mentioned briefly in the keynote, and you can see some zooming - but that's cool more because it lets Apple put higher res screens in its computers.

Since Jobs came back, Apple threw out the old Human Interface Guidelines without really replacing them with anything - it was more of a mixture of old Mac stuff, some NeXT stuff and some Windows ripoffs. The only consistent thing was that they looked great - they were great demo features. Apple made a design decision to trade off usability for things that look cool. When you have a 3 percent worldwide market share, that's what you've got to do - I have no complaints with that. But it makes it somewhat underwhelming when Apple fishes up these old features, bolt them onto the existing system and sell them as new.

Interface-wise, which features in Tiger's Finder and general system interface have no counterpart in 9? Exposé. Maybe Spotlight, but then it's a lot like Vtwin and even older search features. The columns in Finder, I guess. That's not a lot for 5 major versions. I'm sure Leopard will add something, but I can really only think of Spaces - and that's not exactly innovative. If I'm feeling generous, I might add Time Machine. OS X has been very good at fixing things under the hood, and I wouldn't trade that for an interface the was twice as snappy as 9, but the interface in X is just not as good as it was before. Sure, it's getting better all the time, and it's better than Windows, but that's not exactly a high bar.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of the people who keeps an old-style Apple menu and tries to hide the Dock. I don't have a problem to change to a new way of working if it's better. What I don't like is replacing good features with silliness (translucent menubar) or with nothing, like what happened with 10.0.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Would I like to see a snazzy new interface that blows my socks off and is user friendly along with 300+ features that are innovative and increase productivity 200%? Sure. Am I pissed that I didn't get it? Nope.

I certainly would have liked to see some cool secret features that Microsoft would have liked to have copied.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I still don't get the transparent menu bar. It is only like that when in the finder or all apps?

[richwig83]

i cant wait.... that dock looks the dogs!!!!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by P 

Interface-wise, which features in Tiger's Finder and general system interface have no counterpart in 9?

No real equivalent? Expose, sheets, the apple menu, the Dock (including the application minimizing behavior), toolbars, the non-right-click contextual menu, burn folders, column view, smart folders.

There are also a lot of elements with greatly refined behaviors, such as the ability to close windows in the background and the network browsing interface.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl 

I guess the scrollbars are the really offensive part. If those were iTunes grey to match the Sidebar highlight, I'd be satisfied. As it is, it looks like they just forgot to get to them and left the old Aqua bits behind.

I can live with the rest, but yeah, those scrollbars... Ugh!

And agreed on the Dock changes... Nice. The translucent Menu bar just looks harder to read.

Agreed. I hope you can turn off the transparency in the Menu Bar. And as for the scroll bars, why change it in iTunes and leave it Aqua everywhere else? Personally I think the "raised gel" look of Aqua scroll bars and buttons should go. It's not the color that I don't like ... it's the fact that they are raised to a much larger degree than the other UI elements. I like the "flattened" look of the scroll bars in iTunes better.

OAW