[Eug]

You know, there are a lot of comments here about Vista, but I will point out that Blu-ray and HD DVD playback are both supported on Windows XP as well.

Originally Posted by P 

Because they use a different H.264 profile - and probably bitrate as well. Jobs is being slightly coy when saying that everyone is using H.264 - they are, but most people are using the High Profile while Apple is using Mainline.

Yes there are various differences as to the way Apple's H.264 trailers are encoded, not the least of which is bitrate.

However, that was not my point. My point was that people shouldn't look to Quicktime HD trailers as a gauge of top notch HD, cuz they're actually not that good compared to Blu-ray and HD DVD.

Still waiting for the source on why no current Mac is HDCP ready in the hardware. (Yes, I'm annoying, but this is exactly how FUD is started. I hate FUD.)

Like I said, I could be mistaken, but when I checked many moons ago, the only way people could get Blu-ray and HD DVD to play (through their DVI ports at least) was with AnyDVD (which strips the HDCP requirement) alongside PowerDVD. There was a post here that claimed that at least recently people have been able to do it with PowerDVD alone, but I am little skeptical, considering that same person didn't even know what AnyDVD was.

[rytc]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I'm sure we'll see BD support this year in Mac Pro's as an option, but something tells me Steve is going to sit this one out like he did with CD-R on Macs and MMS on iPhones.
V

Apple itself admitted that they miscalculated how CD-Rs were the way of the future, and ended up trying to play catch-up, I don't think they will make the same mistake twice.

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Not crippling at all. This is value-added functionality, despite some of the claims by some of the anti-DRM crowd.

The fact of the matter is, Vista can play Blu-ray and HD DVD, and OS X can't. Furthermore, the incorporation of this support in Vista doesn't degrade playback of other formats like DVD. DVD still functions as before. Non DRM'd movies for other formats also still function normally. The only "crippling" going on is with DRM'd material that requires that crippling. But on OS X, the OS can't play that DRM'd material at all.

If anything, OS X is far more crippled in this regard.

In fact, this was one of the main reasons I decided to hold off on buying a Mac mini for my home theatre.

This is crippling. It is giving in. It is simple. You must make the entire system closed to eyes. You couldn't have Darwin be open at any level on any actual installed OS X system; not even to a memory check. It's bad.

[P]

Like I said, I could be mistaken, but when I checked many moons ago, the only way people could get Blu-ray and HD DVD to play (through their DVI ports at least) was with AnyDVD (which strips the HDCP requirement) alongside PowerDVD. There was a post here that claimed that at least recently people have been able to do it with PowerDVD alone, but I am little skeptical, considering that same person didn't even know what AnyDVD was.

But none of this is evidence that the HARDWARE needs to be updated. It could just as easily be a question of a SOFTWARE update (driver or firmware) and in this case I'm pretty sure that it is. Also, the HDCP support in the ATI2600/nVidia 8x00 level of cards is more complete than that in previous versions, and HDCP is no longer an optional extra.

To be fair, there IS a requirement on the motherboard hardware: If a discrete GPU is used, bus traffic must be encrypted for HDCP to be supported. But that does not mean that no current Macs support it - for one, the Macbook and the Mac mini used integrated graphics and are exempt. For another, the MBP and the iMac use the same chipset as computers that obviously DO support Bluray playback (see the Vaio links in the earlier post).

Again, if anyone knows and can prove (or make likely) that all current Macs need hardware updates to support HDCP, please come forward and show your reasoning. Until you do, I'm going to assume that everything that stands behind Macs and full Bluray support is fixable in software.

Finally: DVD support was first introduced in Powerbooks (because people wanted to watch movies while traveling). DVD CREATION (Superdrives and DVD-RAM drives) were first introduced in Powermacs, but the playback ability appeared first in Powerbooks - Apple even included special DSPs becasue the main CPU was not powerful enough. I think it is likely that the first machines to support Bluray will be the high-end MBPs.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by rytc 

Apple itself admitted that they miscalculated how CD-Rs were the way of the future, and ended up trying to play catch-up, I don't think they will make the same mistake twice.

You're right, Apple did admit that. However, I think they are going to make the same mistake twice - just for different reasons.

V

[TyrNight]

Absolutely correct Paper,

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

There are already Mac owners playing Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies with external drives and Power DVD running on Windows so please don't take us for idiot by telling us what we already know about HDCP and then bullshitting about how there are no Macs with HDCP hardware. Honestly, isn't it enough that you spent more than a whole year telling us all how HD-DVD was going to be the winning HD disc format and how Warner was going to go HD-DVD exclusive (this you said one week before Warner went the other way, something I told you would happen which you couldn't accept).

The Only parts that HAVE to be HDCP compliant are the Video Card and Monitor..
the only other requirement is that you have fast enough hardware to run it.

[AppleGirl1990]

so is the new 8800GT compatible?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

But none of this is evidence that the HARDWARE needs to be updated. It could just as easily be a question of a SOFTWARE update (driver or firmware) and in this case I'm pretty sure that it is. Also, the HDCP support in the ATI2600/nVidia 8x00 level of cards is more complete than that in previous versions, and HDCP is no longer an optional extra.

What I mean by "hardware" includes firmware support. Even if it's true that the cards have the appropriate transistors present, that doesn't help us much if Apple never updates the firmware in these older GPUs to support this.

There are reasons not to update the firmware, not the least of which is cost. Also, Apple has a history of offering new features... on new machines... to get you to buy new machines.

Again, if anyone knows and can prove (or make likely) that all current Macs need hardware updates to support HDCP, please come forward and show your reasoning. Until you do, I'm going to assume that everything that stands behind Macs and full Bluray support is fixable in software.

That's a pretty big assumption, especially considering Apple has not included HDCP support in its displays. (Plug an Apple display into a cable box, and it won't work.)

Originally Posted by TyrNight 

Absolutely correct Paper,

The Only parts that HAVE to be HDCP compliant are the Video Card and Monitor..
the only other requirement is that you have fast enough hardware to run it.

I view Paper's post with skepticism. He claims that people were playing Blu-ray with PowerDVD alone on tower Macs. While I suppose that's possible that some recent Macs fully support HDCP and I'd like to get confirmation on this, I also know that when I had checked (which granted was many months ago), they could not run it with PowerDVD alone. AnyDVD was required to allow PowerDVD to work with these Macs for playback of Blu-ray and HD DVD. Then he went on a rant saying I made this up, but it turns out he didn't have a clue what AnyDVD even was, so obviously the guy isn't the best source of information on the subject.

[P]

Originally Posted by Eug 

What I mean by "hardware" includes firmware support. Even if it's true that the cards have the appropriate transistors present, that doesn't help us much if Apple never updates the firmware in these older GPUs to support this.

There are reasons not to update the firmware, not the least of which is cost. Also, Apple has a history of offering new features... on new machines... to get you to buy new machines.

There is also history of users hacking the firmware as required to enable features. I for one think that Bluray support will happen unless there physically circuits missing to make it work. I have no problem hacking the firmware, but I'm not resoldering the motherboard.

Originally Posted by Eug 

That's a pretty big assumption, especially considering Apple has not included HDCP support in its displays. (Plug an Apple display into a cable box, and it won't work.)

True. Apparently this is not an issue for built-in displays, though, which is a pretty large part of the installed base. I realize that this is pretty unsubstantiated, but it's better than the FUD that started this discussion.

Another thing I've been thinking about: downloaded HD movies play only on the Apple TV, not on a Mac. Why? Could it be because the new Apple TVs are crippled in the same way as Vista is?

[staypufd]

I think we will see it this year but not before NAB. Apple has plenty of updates for Final Cut Studio and if it happens that's where we will see it. IMHO! ;-)

[Glassman]

Just so everybody knows, both Fastmac and Lacie make Blu-Ray drives for the Mac. Why doesn't somebody just call one of them and ask if they will play comercial BD movies on a Mac?

[Big Mac]

We know that Blu-ray drives will work, but if there's no software to play the commercial discs you're not going to get very far.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

There is also history of users hacking the firmware as required to enable features. I for one think that Bluray support will happen unless there physically circuits missing to make it work. I have no problem hacking the firmware, but I'm not resoldering the motherboard.

Firmware hacks don't count.

Well, they count for you and me, but they don't count for 99% of the population.

P.S. Is that even possible? I had thought that the GPUs needed unique IDs, but I'm not sure. If true, that would mean that any such firmware updates would have to come from Apple.

True. Apparently this is not an issue for built-in displays, though, which is a pretty large part of the installed base. I realize that this is pretty unsubstantiated, but it's better than the FUD that started this discussion.

Another thing I've been thinking about: downloaded HD movies play only on the Apple TV, not on a Mac. Why? Could it be because the new Apple TVs are crippled in the same way as Vista is?

I think the fact that HD isn't allowed on Macs from iTunes but is allowed on AppleTV is very interesting in this discussion. It further reaffirms that the Mac doesn't have the appropriate DRM-enablers in place. Now one could argue that it's just a software (and firmware) issue, but nonetheless it's curious as one would think that Apple would want to have all the Macs and PCs in the world running iTunes access to this as well. But they don't. Perhaps one reason for this (besides the engineering complexity) is that they just don't want to deal with the headache of people complaining their machines don't meet the DRM requirements. This indirectly supports the contention that if Apple is to add Blu-ray (and/or HD DVD support) fully, then it will be with new machines. Leaving most of the older consumer Mac owners out to dry would be a major annoyance for us, but it would save them a bazillion technical support calls.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

We know that Blu-ray drives will work, but if there's no software to play the commercial discs you're not going to get very far.

Correct. We already know the drives themselves work. For example, my HD DVD drive works fine in Leopard. I can watch DVD movies and listen to CDs, and I can navigate HD DVD directories. However, I cannot play those HD DVD movies if they are DRM-protected, because OS X doesn't have any software to support playback of DRM-protected HD DVD movies. It's not just HDCP than can be an issue by the way. It's also AACS, BD-Java, HDi, and VC-1, etc.

I can play back non-DRM'd HD DVD in Leopard though, as long as they use H.264 (or MPEG2). You can make these discs in DVD Studio Pro, and they play back fine in DVD Player. ie. The base format itself is not an issue. It's all the licencing and DRM that goes along with it for commercial movies that's the problem.

[P]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Firmware hacks don't count.

Well, they count for you and me, but they don't count for 99% of the population.

OS updates don't count for 95% of the population. Really. They'll pop a disc into the drive and if it plays - good. If it doesn't - ah well. Noone's going to complain unless it it was an advertised feature. If you buy a thirdparty Bluray drive, then either playing movies is an advertised feature (in which case the seller damn well provide the info on how to do it) or not (in which case the 95% won't expect it).

Originally Posted by Eug 

P.S. Is that even possible? I had thought that the GPUs needed unique IDs, but I'm not sure. If true, that would mean that any such firmware updates would have to come from Apple.

This is the bit I was alluding to earlier. The 7x00/X1x00 generation of GPUs do - the next generation have all they need to begin with. And I'd put in more detail if I could find the link to where I read it, but I think it was at Anandtech somewhere.

Originally Posted by Eug 

I think the fact that HD isn't allowed on Macs from iTunes but is allowed on AppleTV is very interesting in this discussion. It further reaffirms that the Mac doesn't have the appropriate DRM-enablers in place. Now one could argue that it's just a software (and firmware) issue, but nonetheless it's curious as one would think that Apple would want to have all the Macs and PCs in the world running iTunes access to this as well. But they don't. Perhaps they just don't want to deal with the headache of people complaining their machines don't meet the DRM requirements. This indirectly supports the contention that if Apple is to add Blu-ray (and/or HD DVD support) fully, then it will be with new machines. Leaving most of the older consumer Mac owners out to dry would be a major annoyance for us, but it would save them a bazillion technical support calls.

I think the really important part is that Apple claims to be able to upgrade all old AppleTVs to HD support through software. If you're right and there's something fundamentally missing in the hardware - why would Apple include that bit in the Apple TV?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

OS updates don't count for 95% of the population. Really. They'll pop a disc into the drive and if it plays - good. If it doesn't - ah well. Noone's going to complain unless it it was an advertised feature. If you buy a thirdparty Bluray drive, then either playing movies is an advertised feature (in which case the seller damn well provide the info on how to do it) or not (in which case the 95% won't expect it).

Actually, people do complain. They complained and complained about external DVD burning support in iDVD for example, and Apple finally added it. But it was easy to do so because there was no DRM barrier to do so. It was purely a marketing decision with earlier versions of iDVD.

And your analogy doesn't really hold for Blu-ray. Plug in any DVD drive in a Mac, and the Mac will play DVD from it. That is not true for Blu-ray.

This is the bit I was alluding to earlier. The 7x00/X1x00 generation of GPUs do - the next generation have all they need to begin with. And I'd put in more detail if I could find the link to where I read it, but I think it was at Anandtech somewhere.

I'd like to see that. My understanding (which could very well be wrong) was:

1) Certain GPUs can't support it at all. (ie. older ones)
2) Certain GPUs can support it but certain hardware implementations of them can't.
3) Certain GPUs can support it and have all the hardware in place, but won't support it without the proper firmware.
4) Certain GPUs have both the appropriate hardware and firmware and fully support it, as long as the OS does too.

Even if Apple's recent Macs fall into category 3, there is no guarantee Apple will issue retroactive updates for them to enable this. (I'd be surprised if Apple's recent Macs fall into category 4.)

I suppose one reasonable compromise would be for Apple to charge for such an update for older machines, but I'm not confident they would.

I think the really important part is that Apple claims to be able to upgrade all old AppleTVs to HD support through software. If you're right and there's something fundamentally missing in the hardware - why would Apple include that bit in the Apple TV?

Because AppleTV was designed with HD downloads in mind. If it wasn't, Apple would have gone with cheaper components.

[P]

The point I'm getting at is that the feature is assumed to come with the computer or not. If the Mac does not come with a Bluray drive, of course playback isn't supported. If someone sells a Bluray drive, it is up to THEM to make sure it works. It's fine if you have to install something on the Mac to do it, but opening up the box isn't.

About HDCP: Older GPUs needed a helper chip that handled the encryption (frequently a Silicon Graphics chip). Newer GPUs have the functionality included in the GPU - there is no way to remove it. For nVidia, this feature was apparently added with the refresh to the 7900 series (the 7800s did not support it). Haven't had a chance to check when it was added for ATi GPUs, but presumably at around the same time.

You know, we're not getting anywhere here. We're missing software. We may also be missing hardware - I don't think we do, and you think we do. Fine. We don't really know, so I guess we'll have to see.

[AppleGirl1990]

The original post references 10.5.2 and it's support of blu-ray. So lets wait until it's released. Should be within 2 weeks....

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

About HDCP: Older GPUs needed a helper chip that handled the encryption (frequently a Silicon Graphics chip). Newer GPUs have the functionality included in the GPU - there is no way to remove it. For nVidia, this feature was apparently added with the refresh to the 7900 series (the 7800s did not support it). Haven't had a chance to check when it was added for ATi GPUs, but presumably at around the same time.

I understand that. However, what I was getting at includes 2 additional points.

1) Even if the silicon there, the firmware support isn't.
2) Even if the firmware could support it, it may need a unique ID/code, which Apple may or may be inclined to provide (since it would cost extra). However, I suppose they could charge for it.

[P]

I don't think we're getting very much further here - we don't know what support the firmware has, and whether the key ROM is there, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

An interesting bit from a disassemble report caught my eye, though: The MBA has an HDMI chip - odd, since it doesn't have and HDMI port, but may the micro-DVI can work as an HDMI as well - and specifically notes HDCP support. They're not unaware of the issue, at least.

[PaperNotes]

The following graphics and integrated chipsets that have shipped in Macs support HDCP in hardware/firmware.

Intel GMA950
Intel GMA X3100
ATI Radeon X1600 and above
ATI Radeon HD 2x00 series
Geforce 8 series

HDCP support in the Geforce 7 series began with the 7600 GT, therefore several Mac models that shipped with the 7300 do not support HDCP.

To reiterate, the only things you need to playback a commercial Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc right now on a Mac with any of the above chipsets are a good CPU, a next generation optical drive (internal or external), Windows XP or Vista, and Power DVD Ultra. No hacks or cracks required. If anyone says different then they don't know better or are trying to sell you an upgrade.

Cyberlink backs this up with the system requirements for Power DVD Ultra:

High-Definition (HD) Disc Playback from HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs - CyberLink PowerDVD Ultra

I'm not going to waste time reading goMac or Eug's posts on HD in the future. First they are in love with themselves. Second, they give themselves false qualifications to appear intelligent. Third, they misquote and lie about you if they feel heat on their opinions. Fourth, they believed for over a year that HD-DVD was going to win the format war.

[PaperNotes]

And here is a demonstration of this that was so easy to find that it is incredible that some moron in this thread said it is impossible.

YouTube - MacBook Pro Xbox360 HD DVD Playback

Xbox 360 HD DVD drive running on a MBP - Engadget HD

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

And here is a demonstration of this that was so easy to find that it is incredible that some moron in this thread said it is impossible.

YouTube - MacBook Pro Xbox360 HD DVD Playback

Xbox 360 HD DVD drive running on a MBP - Engadget HD

You're still confused. It's quite simple to play Blu-ray/HD DVD on a Mac... if you install Windows and the right software. We already said it early on in the thread. To quote myself:

Originally Posted by Eug 

There is no way to watch a commercial Blu-ray movie on a Mac... unless you install Windows.

So far all you've proved is that you don't quite understand what the discussion is actually about. You might want to reread the posts, and then you might actually know what we were talking about. You might also want to read about playback over DVI (and its association with HDCP), and also AnyDVD too while you're at it.

[PaperNotes]

Don't try to change the subject now (you previously said a crack was required for instance). You've got post after post of saying a lack of hardware and firmware HDCP support, and goMac said there was no HDCP support whatsoever and even came up with something as ludicrous as an HDCP motherboard. Move on. Next time give the right answer straight away or just be observant because it makes things much easier for everyone.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Don't try to change the subject now (you previously said a crack was required for instance). You've got post after post of saying a lack of hardware and firmware HDCP support, and goMac said there was no HDCP support whatsoever and even came up with something as ludicrous as an HDCP motherboard. Move on. Next time give the right answer straight away or just be observant because it makes things much easier for everyone.

Snap.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Don't try to change the subject now (you previously said a crack was required for instance). You've got post after post of saying a lack of hardware and firmware HDCP support, and goMac said there was no HDCP support whatsoever and even came up with something as ludicrous as an HDCP motherboard. Move on. Next time give the right answer straight away or just be observant because it makes things much easier for everyone.

Last I checked, goMac and I aren't the same person. Address your arguments with him to him.

Anyways, it's clear you refuse to actually address the contents of the posts directly and accurately. In any case, for the others, here are the instructions on how to get an ATI X1600 iMac to play HD DVD:

Buy the Xbox 360 HD DVD from any source. It comes with a power supply and USB cable. The device is also a two-port USB hub with full sized USB "A" ports on the rear.

The next step? You need to update your ATI Catalyst drivers for the Radeon Mobility X1600 video card. This is necessary so the software video player in Windows will "see" that your Catalyst drivers speak HDCP.

Next step. This one involves spending some more money. You will need AnyDVD HD by Slysoft. Running this program in Windows XP effectively "strips" the HD DVD of HDCP and AACS.

The next step in this journey is to purchase Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra Deluxe from Cyberlink's website.

In addition, I find one has to open PowerDVD on the screen on which the HD DVD will play. Must be something about HDCP. The program is not happy being dragged between screens open and playing a movie. Let AnyDVD do its thing for a while, too, before trying to open a movie. Because PowerDVD pops open on its own before AnyDVD is ready, I have to close PowerDVD and reopen it a bit later.

[P]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

HDCP support in the Geforce 7 series began with the 7600 GT, therefore several Mac models that shipped with the 7300 do not support HDCP.

Please note that the 7300GT is really a cutdown 7600, so that one will support HDCP even if the vanilla 7300 might not.

[P]

Originally Posted by Eug 

In any case, for the others, here are the instructions on how to get an ATI X1600 iMac to play HD DVD:
<snip>

So to sum it up: If you take an HD-DVD drive for a video console, connect it to an older Mac that is running Windows, install hacked HD-DVD drivers and install hacked graphics drivers, you also have to install a third hack to make PowerDVD work. In what way does this indicate that current shipping Macs do not support HDCP in hardware with a supported Bluray/HD-DVD drive?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

So to sum it up: If you take an HD-DVD drive for a video console, connect it to an older Mac that is running Windows, install hacked HD-DVD drivers and install hacked graphics drivers, you also have to install a third hack to make PowerDVD work. In what way does this indicate that current shipping Macs do not support HDCP in hardware with a supported Bluray/HD-DVD drive?

Well, the point is everyone I've seen who has posted in various forums who has actually tried it has needed to install AnyDVD HD on their Mac to get PowerDVD to work, at least over DVI.

Like I said, that may have changed more recently, and of course I haven't seen every single Mac configuration tried obviously, but nonetheless, that's what I've seen posted. Some others claim new Macs MUST be able to support HDCP because of the included hardware, but despite this claim I have not yet seen any article or posting anywhere that has confirmed this... while I have seen several who have experienced the exact opposite.

Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong posts, but why can't anyone here claiming HDCP is not an issue link a post that actually confirms this?

So, until someone here can link a post confirming PowerDVD Blu-ray/HD DVD working without AnyDVD esp. with DVI, then I'll continue to believe HDCP support is still likely a major issue. And it's not like that would be very surprising anyway, since we already know that Apple's high-priced Cinema Displays still don't support HDCP.

BTW, I have actually tried this myself with my MacBook. I did NOT have to install any drivers for my HD DVD drive in Vista, as it is recognized natively. I also did not use hacked video drivers, although at the time I used a different set of drivers than what was included with Boot Camp. PowerDVD did not work for HD DVD playback of the actual encrypted movie but I could browse the disc directory just fine. I didn't have AnyDVD so I did not try that, but many others have already confirmed that adding AnyDVD allowed such playback, at least on other Macs.

I also have a 7600GT iMac, but I didn't try it on that machine, because I don't have Windows on it.

Oh and by the way, the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive is officially supported by PowerDVD. They say so right on their website.

[P]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong posts, but why can't anyone here claiming HDCP is not an issue link a post that actually confirms this?

I'm not claiming that it isn't an issue, I'm claiming that it is misleading to state that no currently shipping Mac will ever support playback of high-def discs - which is what goMac did about 5 posts in. We don't know that.

I feel reasonably certain that there's nothing missing on the hardware level, since Macs are using the same hardware as computers that do support Bluray. For the current Macbooks to not support HDCP in hardware, Apple would have to ask Intel to spin a special chipset with that feature explicitly edited out - that seems unlikely, in my opinion.

IME, any feature that has the hardware support but is missing some part of the software will eventually be enabled, if there are enough requests for it. We rip DVDs, we circumvent region codes, we copy music back from iPods and we hack iPhones. We install OS X on whitebox PCs and Linux on consoles and handhelds. We strip DRM from music and movies. Both AACS and BD+ are already broken, and you only have to go as far as Wikipedia for a theoretical proposal on how HDCP can be hacked. Even when Apple tries to really lock something down - like the iPhone - they usually fail, and when they just don't bother, it's usually not even hard. If I had been the proud owner of a 2008 MBP, I'd feel reasonably certain that there would eventually be a way to play Bluray discs on it - without bringing out the soldering iron. Will it involve hacking? Maybe - but it won't be any harder than installing the new optical physically, and probably a lot easier.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by P 

I'm not claiming that it isn't an issue, I'm claiming that it is misleading to state that no currently shipping Mac will ever support playback of high-def discs - which is what goMac did about 5 posts in. We don't know that.

I feel reasonably certain that there's nothing missing on the hardware level, since Macs are using the same hardware as computers that do support Bluray. For the current Macbooks to not support HDCP in hardware, Apple would have to ask Intel to spin a special chipset with that feature explicitly edited out - that seems unlikely, in my opinion.

IME, any feature that has the hardware support but is missing some part of the software will eventually be enabled, if there are enough requests for it. We rip DVDs, we circumvent region codes, we copy music back from iPods and we hack iPhones. We install OS X on whitebox PCs and Linux on consoles and handhelds. We strip DRM from music and movies. Both AACS and BD+ are already broken, and you only have to go as far as Wikipedia for a theoretical proposal on how HDCP can be hacked. Even when Apple tries to really lock something down - like the iPhone - they usually fail, and when they just don't bother, it's usually not even hard. If I had been the proud owner of a 2008 MBP, I'd feel reasonably certain that there would eventually be a way to play Bluray discs on it - without bringing out the soldering iron. Will it involve hacking? Maybe - but it won't be any harder than installing the new optical physically, and probably a lot easier.

Ok I definitely understand that. However, that goes back to our discussion earlier. IF it's possible but just not enabled yet, and IF Apple eventually decides to enable it, then that's great. However, if not, then do hacks (even software ones) count as viable solutions?

As for the iPhone, it's interesting you bring that up. One of the reasons I don't have an iPhone is because I didn't feel like hacking it. (I live in Canada, and unfortunately the iPhone is unavailable here.) It's enough of a turnoff to me, even with the software hacks available. Mind you part of the reason is because our data plans aren't really suited to the iPhone, and I would have a preferred a 16 GB 3G one anyway. As of yesterday the data plans MIGHT be more appropriate (depending upon how strict they are with unsupported phones), and there is now a 16 GB version, so I am getting more tempted... but not if I have to hack it. Give me a carrier and vendor supported iPhone and I'm much more likely to buy.

[TETENAL]

For BluRay movie playback Apple needs to:

• license and implement video codecs
• have the convoluted DRM of BluRay working on Macs and displays
• have a BluRay-Java compatible Java runtime
• include a BluRay drive in Macs

All of that is involved with costs. So my guess is that Apple will not enable BluRay playback for existing Macs even if they fulfill all hardware requirements except of the drive. Just like they didn't enable DVD playback unless you Mac came with an Apple supplied DVD drive for much the same reason.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

For BluRay movie playback Apple needs to:

• license and implement video codecs
• have the convoluted DRM of BluRay working on Macs and displays
• have a BluRay-Java compatible Java runtime
• include a BluRay drive in Macs

Good thing they are on the BR board then.

[exca1ibur]

They already license the codecs. AAC and H.264 has been in Quicktime for a while now.

[TETENAL]

VC-1 isn't.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

VC-1 isn't.

Good thing MPEG4 is on many BR disks also.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

VC-1 isn't.

Actually Flip4Mac has supported VC-1 since version 2.1.1. When Microsoft ditched Windows Media they picked up the ball and support most of their codecs now, but they are all free plugins for Quicktime.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Good thing MPEG4 is on many BR disks also.

Doesn't matter. If you implement commercial Blu-ray movie playback, you have to licence VC-1. It's part of the mandatory Blu-ray specification.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Actually Flip4Mac has supported VC-1 since version 2.1.1.

Of course, Flip4Mac is completely irrelevant to the conversation.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

They already license the codecs. AAC and H.264 has been in Quicktime for a while now.

What does AAC have to do with anything?

[exca1ibur]

He said they would have to license codecs. I posted they were already licensed, and others were already provided via 3rd parties? The main codec used with Blu-ray is H.264/AVC, which has been on OSX for over a year. Flip4Mac which is free can decode VC-1, as well as FFMpeg, since Microsoft pulled Windows Media Player development. What's so hard to comprehend?

Hell, in theory one could modify a version of VLC with a Blu-ray drive and not need any hardware other than a HDCP video card and HDCP monitor. VLC supports all the codecs.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

He said they would have to license codecs. I posted they were already licensed, and others were already provided via 3rd parties? The main codec used with Blu-ray is H.264/AVC, which has been on OSX for over a year. Flip4Mac which is free can decode VC-1, as well as FFMpeg, since Microsoft pulled Windows Media Player development. What's so hard to comprehend?

Hell, in theory one could modify a version of VLC with a Blu-ray drive and not need any hardware other than a HDCP video card and HDCP monitor. VLC supports all the codecs.

I didn't quite believe it, but it does seem like you seriously think that implementing Blu-ray VC-1 support is a simple as installing Flip4Mac.

I really don't know what to say if you actually do think that.

[CaptainHaddock]

What Eug said. If you implement a commercial Blu-ray player with the Blu-ray logo, you have to pay Microsoft and a bunch of other companies a patent fee for VC-1 decoding. This has nothing to do with whatever plug-in or apps may be otherwise available for playing movie files. The amount is small per unit but would add up to millions of dollars overall.

What I'd prefer to see is for Macs to get built-in Blu-ray writers that are capable of reading as well (obviously), and then leave movie playing to third-party software apps like VLC.

[P]

I think that some of you are talking past each other. Let me see if I can clear it up a little:

If you want to be able to advertise Bluray support, you have to support all three video codecs in the correct profile. Only MPEG2 is present on the default installation of Macs now - H.264 is there, but the wrong profile, and VC-1 isn't there at all. You also need to support a bunch of audio codecs that aren't supported yet, the Java virtual machine bit for the menus, require HDCP in the hardware etc. If you do all this, you can get the AACS key that you need legally.

If you manage to hack the AACS bit in a consistent manner, you can add whatever codec support you want and eventually support some or all Bluray discs. You are also not bound by the license agreement, and HDCP, regions, ROPs etc all become irrelevant. This is what VLC has done for DVDs. This happened a few years after DVD launch, after DeCSS, and AACS isn't broken enough yet. It could happen in a year or so, maybe, and when it does, I think all current Macs will support Bluray if they have the actual player hardware.

Apple can't do that, of course - their contacts with the industry would sour instantly. They need to do it official, support HDCP in hardware, license everything and so on. They may choose not to do this for Macs other than new ones - although I think they might, if they sell it - but any driver update they make for that will be included in the OS and available for everyone. At this point - with new Macs with Bluray support - I think that we will be able to hack together a solution that works on older Macs.

[Bwa]

I don't get the posts about watching BD movies on a computer (or any other format of movies on the computer).

I want to burn BD discs of data. 50 GB on a disc is a heck of a lot more convenient than 8 GB on a DVD. Yeah the discs are expensive, but that's not an issue long term.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Bwa 

I don't get the posts about watching BD movies on a computer (or any other format of movies on the computer).

I want to burn BD discs of data. 50 GB on a disc is a heck of a lot more convenient than 8 GB on a DVD. Yeah the discs are expensive, but that's not an issue long term.

I want both commercial movie playback and data storage.

BTW, I'd be surprised if 50 GB becomes the dominant disc size. My guess is the standard will be 25 GB, because of cost.

[P]

Originally Posted by Bwa 

I don't get the posts about watching BD movies on a computer (or any other format of movies on the computer).

It's very convenient on a laptop when travelling. If you look around, that's where Bluray playback is available mostly at this point. That is also where DVD playback arrived first - hence my prediction that the MBP will be the first Mac to offer Bluray playback and the Mac Pro will be the first to offer support for writing discs.

Agree with Eug about single layer discs becoming the standard, by the way.

[Howard Brazee]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I agree with this.. I will not rent movies online from iTunes or any other business in the foreseeable future.

That said, BD support will be introduced as an option on Mac Pros this year. Blue-Ray movie playback will not.

Maybe in 2009..

V

I never rent movies. I am a collector. My wife is not entirely happy that we are getting a Blu-ray player for Christmas, she likes playing her Disney DvDs and their games on her iMac.

She wishes she could user her 24" iMac as a monitor for her laptop as well, which wouldn't be expensive for Apple to do. It seems similar to our desire to play Blu-ray movies. (Do Blu-ray movies sometimes come with games the way DvDs do?)