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- - e r i k - - · Jun 10, 2009, 12:58 AM

Actually tabs as implemented now is incredibly bad UI design as it breaks the window metaphor.

Big Mac · Jun 10, 2009, 01:20 AM

And how important is the window metaphor? One window per document? In most places the metaphor works, while in others it doesn't. The beta's alternative was too radical and awkward a change for most people, and it had usability issues that normal tabs don't suffer from.

- - e r i k - - · Jun 10, 2009, 01:33 AM

This article (which I had a minor contribution to), explains what's right and wrong about the tab implementations:

ignore the code��On Tabs and Docking and Title Bars

Nassifer · Jun 10, 2009, 05:20 AM

can someone please help, I love the new safari do not get me wrong, just have one thing that I want to be able to do, is there a way to Pre-Define the "Top-Sites" option, see I have that setup as my home page, but I want to be able to define which pages are on there, also I would like to be able to just double click and get a new tab, there used to be an app out for 3 that did that. Just my 2 cents

Abdulah

mdc · Jun 10, 2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Nassifer

can someone please help, I love the new safari do not get me wrong, just have one thing that I want to be able to do, is there a way to Pre-Define the "Top-Sites" option, see I have that setup as my home page, but I want to be able to define which pages are on there...

Open Top Sites, click Edit (bottom left corner), type in a web address into the address bar, drag the address (by the globe to the left of it) into the Top Sites window, and drop it where you want it. Click on the push pin icon on the top left of it and it won't leave top sites.

Do this for all sites you want in Top Sites.

Originally Posted by Nassifer

... also I would like to be able to just double click and get a new tab, there used to be an app out for 3 that did that. Just my 2 cents

Abdulah

View > Show Tab Bar. Now the tab bar will be there even if you only have one tab open. Now you can double click anywhere empty on the tab bar to get a new tab, or you could click the + on the right to create a new tab.

You can also change the toolbar (View > Customize Toolbar) and add in the New Tab button.

pendragon · Jun 10, 2009, 09:16 AM

Jun 8, 2009, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL
I preferred the tabs on top. Made more sense and saved vertical screen real estate.

I don't get the new "loading"-box. Why is it there and why does it change colour while loading?
Just when I was getting used to the tabs on top.

The entire loading-box is the stop button now.

image displayed at 73.86% of its original size; click here for original

New customize toolbar options. The web inspector one will come in very handy.

When I show my "Customized Icons", I do not have Web Inspector". There is no blank space where it might otherwise be--everything else, other than that, appears normal.

Is the Web Inspector just for the chosen? How do I get one (though I am not sure I need it)?

TETENAL · Jun 10, 2009, 09:26 AM

To get the Web Inspector you need to turn on the Developer features in Safari->Preferences->Advanced.

pendragon · Jun 10, 2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

To get the Web Inspector you need to turn on the Developer features in Safari->Preferences->Advanced.

Geez, do I feel dopey (yes). Still, my many thanks.

voodoo · Jun 10, 2009, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Actually tabs as implemented now is incredibly bad UI design as it breaks the window metaphor.

Actually I agree with Weyland and I am glad to see the tabs back in the correct place. The «windows metaphor» be damned - Apple already destroyed the spacial metaphor.

I bet you'd argue that was a stroke of genius. Besides the tabbed browsing wasn't invented by some UI masters. It just caught on for convenience sake.

I doubt the «window metaphor» even applies in a non-spacial environment anyway.

Salty · Jun 10, 2009, 11:43 AM

I installed it on my work PC and my MacBook at home. Both feel even faster than the beta. At home it feels like my internet connection got faster.

DCJ001 · Jun 10, 2009, 01:21 PM

How about a way to disable the "suggested" and "recent" searches in the Google window. There was a Terminal command and a couple of applications made for customizing the Beta, but they don't work now.

osiris · Jun 10, 2009, 02:36 PM

I don't care much for Safari 4 at all. Sure, pages load faster when they do load - but I seem to have a lot of hanging. It feels like Firefox - which I hate.

Dakar V · Jun 10, 2009, 02:41 PM

Odd, I haven't seen any hanging, something I was getting beat over the head with before.

I've also noticed pop-out windows are now added as tabs instead.

osiris · Jun 10, 2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

Odd, I haven't seen any hanging, something I was getting beat over the head with before.

I've also noticed pop-out windows are now added as tabs instead.

It seems to be on a few specific pages - yahoo mail plus, e-on software's file browser, and a proprietary java page I use for record keeping. Nothing worth spilling blood over.
The rest of the internet (both kinds) seem generally snappier. Still, it reminds me of Firefox of days past, during the springtime in Berlin. I remember it now...

Dakar V · Jun 10, 2009, 02:53 PM

Everything is getting blurry and shimmery. Am I caught in a flashback?

Proudest Monkey · Jun 10, 2009, 09:26 PM

Glad the tabs are back where they were.

Speed very unimpressive ... the beta was faster, FF is still much faster for me.

It just seems sluggish, not sure why, only been a day so far though.

Specs in the sig ...

wrambro · Jun 10, 2009, 10:32 PM

Tabs on top was great. This just feels disappointing.

Nassifer · Jun 11, 2009, 09:03 AM

thanks for the help, works now great.

Abdi

DCJ001 · Jun 11, 2009, 05:26 PM

A new petition has been started in an attempt to get Apple to bring back the tabs-on-top feature from the Safari 4 beta. Most browsers situate tabs under the address bar, and Google Chrome was the first major program to try innovating in this regard. The official version of Safari 4, launched on Monday, scraps a Chrome-like design in favor of one closer to Safari 3. The petition's founders say they do not want the feature enabled by default, but rather as an option.

http://www.petitiononline.com/SafariTa/petition.html

TETENAL · Jun 11, 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by DCJ001

Most browsers situate tabs under the address bar, and Google Chrome was the first major program to try innovating in this regard.

Actually that was Opera.

stoneage · Jun 12, 2009, 08:45 AM

Hopefully, Apple gives us an option. I liked this feature very much.

Salty · Jun 12, 2009, 02:33 PM

I hope Apple gives me a pony.

stoneage · Jun 12, 2009, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

I hope Apple gives me a pony.

Well, that certainly helps the thread along.

Chuckit · Jun 12, 2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Actually that was Opera.

Opera just had the tab bar and nav bar flipped. It didn't really make tabs the primary structural component of the app like Chrome and Safari 4 Beta.

jmwmnl · Jun 12, 2009, 10:02 PM

Has anybody else had Safari 4 crash on them. I've updated to 4 two days ago and now I've had Safari randomly shutdown on me, all on different websites. I've sent in the error message to apple. My specs are as follows: iMac 24" 2.33 C2D 2gb ram 10.5.7
Thanks in advance!
jmwmnl

shaun3000 · Jun 12, 2009, 11:39 PM

I noticed an improvement with the Tab UI. In Safari 3, you could either click and drag a tab down to move it to a new window, or click and drag a tab to the side to rearrange it. But once you had move it one way, you had to let go and click, again, to do the other. Safari 4 improves the interaction, so you can pick a tab up, move it all around, and then either move it to a new position on the tab bar or move it to a new window.

IronPen · Jun 13, 2009, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by jmwmnl

Has anybody else had Safari 4 crash on them. I've updated to 4 two days ago and now I've had Safari randomly shutdown on me, all on different websites. I've sent in the error message to apple. My specs are as follows: iMac 24" 2.33 C2D 2gb ram 10.5.7
jmwmnl

Yes. I upgraded Safari from 3.x to 4 on my iMac8,1 C2D running 10.5.7 4GB RAM and it crashes consistently when I open my favorite Mac sites bookmark folder into tabs (command+click bookmark folder). It doesn't crash immediately. I opened a few of the sites individually thinking perhaps it was just one site causing the crash, but I didn't have time to go through all of my bookmarks. I uninstalled SafariStand and SIMBL so that neither exist anywhere on my hard drive. Restarted the machine an the problem still persists.

As for Safari 4, I don't like the darker interface. I much prefer the beta. And I want tabs back on top, regardless of what UI guidelines they may break, they looked better up there and you could stack windows on top of one another and easily see and get to your tabs. Tabs on top set Safari apart from other browsers. Even Chrome doesn't implement tabs on top like Apple had done with the betas. And I want Snapback in Safari again. Another useful feature that is missing, except for in the search box. For now I'm sticking with the beta on my MB.

angelmb · Jun 13, 2009, 09:01 AM

Yes, Snapback is still available albeit it only shows into the search field… which I don't think it is a big issue cause it works anyway even if you do a search via the URL field.

I haven't used Snapback ever, was it such a popular feature?.

IronPen · Jun 14, 2009, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by angelmb

I haven't used Snapback ever, was it such a popular feature?.

I used it. You could hit option+command+k to mark a page for snapback. Then drill down several levels and simply hit option+command+p to snapback to the page you previously marked. Of course, when you would enter a URL it would automatically be marked for snapback. This often came in handy at work and it was a much quicker way to get back to where I was without having to use the mouse to navigate back to the specific page in my history, which could be an aggravation if I had drilled down several links.

Was it a 'popular feature'? I don't know, but it seems ridiculous to remove it from the URL option when it was one of the features Safari had that other browsers didn't. What benefit would users gain by removing it? Does it improve Safari in any way? Did it somehow slow down Safari's performance? Plus, they left it in the search box. The logic defies me in this case.

stoneage · Jun 14, 2009, 12:16 PM

"For now I'm sticking with the beta on my MB."
How would one get a 4 beta back? I would like it for the top tabs.

fisherKing · Jun 14, 2009, 01:54 PM

anyone have a way yet to modify parameters, the way several freeware apps (and terminal instructions) did for the beta? ie tabs, or turn off top sites, etc...

TETENAL · Jun 14, 2009, 02:21 PM

To turn off Top Sites just select something else in Safari->Preferences->General for new windows and tabs. You can even turn off the Top Sites button in the bookmarks bar in the Bookmarks preferences. What more do you need?

Don Pickett · Jun 14, 2009, 02:43 PM

Unfortunately, Safari 4 has forced me to switch to Firefox. I keep running into a fatal javascript error I can not pin down.

Chuckit · Jun 14, 2009, 02:53 PM

Did you try talking to the people who run the sites?

Don Pickett · Jun 14, 2009, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Did you try talking to the people who run the sites?

I am the only person visiting the site who is having the problem.

I did an archive and install of 10.5, ran the 10.5.7 combo updater, removed literally all plugins and still the problem remains, Doesn't happen in Firefox or Safari 3.x. Only Safari 4.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 14, 2009, 03:00 PM

which site?

Don Pickett · Jun 14, 2009, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

which site?

The forums at X-Plane.org.

Specifically the problem presents when someone uses the [img] tag to post images from an image storage site. Safari freezes, I get the "slow script" warning, and the page is rendered incorrectly.

I have two posts on the Apple forums about it, but no solutions.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 14, 2009, 03:37 PM

Such as in this page, post #7?

screenshot contest - Untouched pictures - X-Plane.Org Forum

Works absolutely fine for me - no hangups at all.

Chuckit · Jun 14, 2009, 03:40 PM

Likewise. How very strange.

Don Pickett · Jun 14, 2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Such as in this page, post #7?

screenshot contest - Untouched pictures - X-Plane.Org Forum

Works absolutely fine for me - no hangups at all.

Yep. Seafire's post would make my copy of Safari freak out.

edit: if I open the error console, I can see the javascript which is causing the problem: ips_ipsclass.js. But I'm not a programmer or a web developer, so I don't know what it means.

Hope it's not a hardware problem.

TETENAL · Jun 14, 2009, 05:21 PM

Delete you cookies, then try again.

Don Pickett · Jun 14, 2009, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Delete you cookies, then try again.

Tried that. I have:

1) Deleted cookies;
2) Completely reset Safari;
3) Done an archive and install of 10.5;
4) Removed all plugins and input managers.

The problem is also intermittent. Safari will work fine for a little while, and then start screwing up. It's as if a stack is overflowing, or a cache file is getting too large or something. And it only appears to happen on this machine.

fisherKing · Jun 14, 2009, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

To turn off Top Sites just select something else in Safari->Preferences->General for new windows and tabs. You can even turn off the Top Sites button in the bookmarks bar in the Bookmarks preferences. What more do you need?

yes, i know about that; actually just wondered about modifications overall... thanx!

IronPen · Jun 15, 2009, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by stoneage

How would one get a 4 beta back? I would like it for the top tabs.

You would still need the beta disk image. I don't have it anymore. I just neglected to upgrade to Safari 4 final, so I'm still running the beta. You might be able to get lucky and find the disk image for the beta by searching the web. Good luck!

JKT · Jun 15, 2009, 10:06 AM

Does anyone know what WebKit nightly was the equivalent to the last version of Safari 3? I need to ensure that I can test site compatibility with version 3 and I am having to hold off installing 4 on my primary machine until I know that I can run both 3 and 4 versions of WebKit at the same time... TIA

TETENAL · Jun 15, 2009, 11:46 AM

I just noticed that you can remove the "add bookmark" button to the left of the address field in the final of Safari 4. To do this you have to first go to View->Customize Toolbar... and add the separate "add bookmark" button which removes the one that is attached to the address field. Then also drag off the separate one.

Kind of backwards, but this bookmark button was kind of bugging me, so I'm happy it's gone now.

sek929 · Jun 15, 2009, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I just noticed that you can remove the "add bookmark" button to the left of the address field in the final of Safari 4. To do this you have to first go to View->Customize Toolbar... and add the separate "add bookmark" button which removes the one that is attached to the address field. Then also drag off the separate one.

Kind of backwards, but this bookmark button was kind of bugging me, so I'm happy it's gone now.

Hah, neat, thanks for the tip.

voodoo · Jun 15, 2009, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I just noticed that you can remove the "add bookmark" button to the left of the address field in the final of Safari 4. To do this you have to first go to View->Customize Toolbar... and add the separate "add bookmark" button which removes the one that is attached to the address field. Then also drag off the separate one.

Kind of backwards, but this bookmark button was kind of bugging me, so I'm happy it's gone now.

Hey thanks!! Much better now and yes that was quite backwards. UI designers still missing at Apple I guess.

Chuckit · Jun 15, 2009, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by JKT

Does anyone know what WebKit nightly was the equivalent to the last version of Safari 3? I need to ensure that I can test site compatibility with version 3 and I am having to hold off installing 4 on my primary machine until I know that I can run both 3 and 4 versions of WebKit at the same time... TIA

According to the dates on the Safari 3.2.1 release files in the WebKit SVN, it was finished Nov. 24, 2008.

JKT · Jun 15, 2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

According to the dates on the Safari 3.2.1 release files in the WebKit SVN, it was finished Nov. 24, 2008.

Thanks, but that seems pretty old... did anything much change with 3.2.3? Fwiw, the last WebKit build on the 24th Nov 08 was r38707. I assume I should be OK with this one?