[henk]

I just stopped working for a company that used Dell's, Hp's and a few Macs. Dell's notebooks are really crappy compared to HP's. Service at Dell isn't exactly reputable, at least over here in Europe.
The Macbook is actually a better design ergonomically; it runs both MacosX and XP. Personally, I don't have choice; having used XP on a really good HP notebook drove me mad. I went back to an Ibook 12" recently...

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by Simon

You can be damn sure I wouldn't want a fugly Dell in my sight the whole day long when I could be looking at an iMac.

And looking at Windows on an iMac isn't fugly? If this were a year ago hordes of people on here would be screaming blasphemy at the thought of having Windows on a Mac. Then again I can't believe there are people out there who would spend more on a tool just because it looked better.

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

The real problem is... the Dell doesn't run OS X.

That's the deal-breaker for me.

You can't fault Dell for that one.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

And looking at Windows on an iMac isn't fugly? If this were a year ago hordes of people on here would be screaming blasphemy at the thought of having Windows on a Mac. Then again I can't believe there are people out there who would spend more on a tool just because it looked better.

The Mac runs both. At least you've got something nice to look at 50% of the time. The Dell can't run OS X. It's fugly 100% of the time. The Mac just gives you more options. Another reason to get the Mac.

You can't fault Dell for that one.

Irrelevant. The Dell can't run OS X. If you buy it, you're stuck with Windows or Linux. Anybody who can appreciate the advantages of Mac OS X will not give the Dell any serious thought. That said, if you don't think OS X is worth the premium, by all means get the Dell. There's no point in spending money on something you can't appreciate.

[ElRay]

Make sure you factor in the 3-year on-site support package.

My Dell laptop arrived with 5 dead or stuck pixels (6 or more gets you a replacement); has had two keyboards, one motherboards and one battery replaced. It should get a fourth keyboard (dead left shift, alt and control keys) and a third motherboard (one RAM clip won't hold RAM) and a fourth battery, but it's all out of warranty now.

I won't even go into the horrors of dealing with their Tech Support. Note the last year that their "Award Winning Service" actually won an award.

Ray

[crawlingparanoia]

Apple computers are not overpriced. They pack a lot of value into their machines that isn't always apparent when comparing against another computer spec for spec. For instance, OS X, iLife, Photo Booth, Front Row, etc. Some other stuff has been mentioned as well.

As long as you use everything they're not overpriced computers.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Your computer is not an appliance or a piece of furniture.



http://www.clamwin.com/ - Free
http://www.privoxy.org/ - Free

What was that about pulling out your wallet again?

How much is your time worth hunting those down and installing them? How much do they drag down the performance of your machine?

You may not consider your computer an appliance but I consider my computer to be one. It is a computing appliance that I use to entertain myself with and create various types of creative works. It is no different than a oven is to a baker. It is a tool/appliance that assists me in doing something that I either enjoy to do or need to do.

[ChasingApple]

No way in hell I could live with a Dell as my computer, I would just give up on computers for good if that happened. I mean hell, live with Windows (sorry linux blows), live with spyware, viruses, patching, plugging, fighting, and watching all your software work against each other! I mean ****, a year later after you have dealt with your new doorstop you will be telling yourself, "I should have paid the extra $200-300 for the Mac".

Go fer it, never going to happen here in this household.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by bryanmsi

MagSafe adapter is worth $75 bucks just on its own

Is that before or after it starts burning?

Originally Posted by lamewing

The DVI truly isn't that big a deal if it has VGA out. Most people really don't care that much (I know many Mac-heads DO care, but the average laptop user really doesn't)

High-res (1080p or better) flat panels look like trash over VGA.

[Helmling]

You get what you pay for.

For me, Macs are in a whole other class. Comparing the specs is like comparing the horsepower of a Mustang to a BMW. Who cares if you could get a bigger engine in the cheaper car? It's apples and oranges...or rather, apples and processed high fructose corn syrup sludge.

My MacBook just arrived in the city. I'm trying to figure out a way to camp out at home tomorrow to intercept the Fed Ex truck, instead of managing my computer lab at school...which is full of 46 crappy Dells by the way.

Like others have said, I hope you enjoy your laptop...but I know you won't enjoy it as much as I will mine.

[pheonixash]

Originally Posted by fox-orian

http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...78F7&nclm=iMac



http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...clm=MacBookPro



http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...D&nclm=MacBook



I rest my case there.

HAHAHAHA

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mduell

Is that before or after it starts burning?

I actually own 4 MagSafe adapters and not one of them has burned, sizzled or anything else. You can't ignore the MagSafe's superiority compared to other adapters by citing a few isolated incidents which are of course all covered under warranty.

The MagSafe is no doubt worth every penny.

[ElRay]

Re: the Dell not running OS X:

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

You can't fault Dell for that one.

There very well may be nothing that Dell can do about running OS X, but it is indeed an incurable defect.

[Apple IIgs]

Originally Posted by mduell

Is that before or after it starts burning?



High-res (1080p or better) flat panels look like trash over VGA.

Hrm, gee i thought it was the dell laptops in the news recently that BURST INTO FLAME.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mduell

Is that before or after it starts burning?

Are there ANY other reports of a MacSafe burning other than that one the owner's CAT PEED ON after it chewed around on the cable?

[kjitta]

In my work I write a lot, so around this time last year when I was out looking for a new one I ended up buying a really nice Swiss fountain pen at £130. That is more than 10 times what I normaly buy pens for and most people who know this, especially my wife, think I have lost my nuts.
I personally think it was my best purchase that year. It's better to use than any other pen I have tried. I did have some problems with it, but the shop gladly swapped it for a new one of the same type, which to me feels like it will last for ever.
The point I am trying to make is that later that year I also bought a PowerBook. It cost a little more than the equivalent Dell PC but I feel the same way about the mac as I do about the pen.
Some things are just better put togetherand/or more pleasurable to use every day than others, and those things are IMHO worth more money. But (this is the catch) only if you appreciate the added quality.

[real]

Originally Posted by one sick puppy

As I mentioned, two years ago when I bought my iBook G4, it was MUCH better priced than a comparable Dell. At that time, the decision was between the Dell 700m and the iBook, with the 700m at least $300 more expensive. The only other 12" display laptop computers under $2000 CAD that were available to me were the Averatec brand laptops. I'm just dissapointed that Apple is not keeping up, because the MacBooks are certainly quite nice looking machines.

Apple will always seem more expensive. Main word there is "seem".

This has been a topic of disscussion for as long as I can remember, and will still be a topic for years to come.

OS X=Awesome

[mduell]

Originally Posted by analogika

Are there ANY other reports of a MacSafe burning other than that one the owner's CAT PEED ON after it chewed around on the cable?

Yes.

[Simon]

Two words: Warranty and rare.

[Terrin]

One sick Puppy. You are correct. Apple does not, nor has ever, catered to the whole economic spectrum of computer users. It is not interested in the current price war going on between Dell, HP, and Gateway. It wants to make a profit.

Two years ago, you could get a iBook for less money then a comparable Dell. Then Apple paid less for the IBM processor (yes, Apple pays more for Intel), and the price war was not going on. Dell had no competition from HP.

With that said, I compared Dell prices recently for my step father who wanted to know why the Dell PC cost so much less then a Mac. When I did the price comparisons, many Dell machines were charging shipping when Apple did not, had less warranty then Apple did, less ports, non-integrated Wi-Fi, slower processor, the list went on. It turned out some Dell's still are more expensive then some Macs, and some Macs are more expensive then some Dells. He opted for the Mac Book Pro.

If all you care about is price, go with the Dell. As another poster noted, you can get an entry level Macbook for $999. Also, Apple's HotDeal section often has nice prices on open box Macs. These prices are less then the education discount. The computers come with the same warranty.


You should also consider that with the Mac, you will not have any hassle bringing over all your files. That is worth something.

[Elektrix]

To be fair, I think Apple has had an interest in the lower end of the price spectrum. If I recall, computers like the Mac Plus, Mac Classic and especially the Mac LC were really aimed at the lower end of the price scale (and if I recall correctly, were actually pretty competitively priced at the time). The Performa line especially I guess was also really aimed at that low-cost price market. And really even with the Mac mini (and the previous iBook and current MacBook line) I think Apple is showing they do still care about making more affordable Macs available.

I think the big thing is that Apple is not interested in competing at the total bargain basement, the $200-300 PC's and that kind of thing.

[Simon]

Elektrix, you're spot on.

Apple does cater to the lower end but Apple also has certain minimum standards that every Mac has to fulfill. And that's why they don't compete with the rock bottom el cheapo PCs. I think Apple tries to offer inexpensive Macs, but never a cheap Mac. Take the mini: Every mini still comes with iLife, it comes with the same OS X every Mac has (and not some kind of 'home' crap), it has DVI, it has FW, sound in and out, etc. A $250 Mac would come in a big gray box, with a stripped down OS X, no iLife, have VGA out, and no FW. And that's just a Mac Apple doesn't want people to have to use because in essence, that's not a real Mac.

[lamewing]

Originally Posted by mduell

High-res (1080p or better) flat panels look like trash over VGA.

True, but the average consumer doesn't (as I stated earlier) use monitors like that.

[hldan]

[QUOTE=alphasubzero949]And looking at Windows on an iMac isn't fugly? If this were a year ago hordes of people on here would be screaming blasphemy at the thought of having Windows on a Mac. Then again I can't believe there are people out there who would spend more on a tool just because it looked better.



You are not grasping the whole situation. It's not that people WANT to run Windows so badly on their Macs (because if that's the case then we would all buy into Dell's world) it's the idea of dual booting so any piece of software that's out there can be run on one machine. It goes both ways, many PC users want to run OSX on their PC's so they can have access to Mac software one machine.

Not many people think of running Windows on their Macs as blasphemy, Virtual PC has been in existence for over 8 years and running Windows on Macs has been happening over 10 years. It's all about accessability not lusting over Windows. I for one don't care for MS Windows but I would install it on my Intel Mac in a heartbeat.

You are kidding yourself if you think that you never buy stuff just on the way it looks alone. Every consumer does that.

To the original poster, at this point Apple's pricing is quite cheap since their machines can now do it all. Don't forget that Sony's Vaio machines are the most expensive consumer computers and they don't do any more than the common Dell machine, they just look better.

[Ouhei]

I never thought of Apple as the company with prices to beat, that isn't their goal. Apple seems (to me at least) to want to put out a product they can be proud of and that meets a certain level that has become expected of anything with the Apple logo on it.

But, to me, you get what you pay for. Try and think of another computer company that offers the direct support that apple does (especially with Apple store's spreading around). What other company has its own STORE that you can take your product to and have someone that is an expert in YOUR PRODUCT look at it right then, and offer repair/replacements on the spot.

So taking into account the product quality (I don't care what problems people are having, my Macbook has been the nicest computer I have ever owned), service that comes with the computer, and the great software that comes with it, the Macbook becomes a great value. I'd gladly pay a few hundred more for a Macbook over its Dell competitor. The Mac's aimed at the general computing crowd are priced just fine, the pro models start getting a bit more expensive over their windows counterparts but the G5 tower isn't meant to compete with those, Apple targets a very specific audience with them.

[Thraxes]

One thing you should also consider when looking at the Pro models: You just can't compare a MacBookPro with a Dell Inspiron... they are just not in the same league in regards to engineering and finish quality. You have to look at business Laptops from HP or the T series from IBM/Lenovo , that is the league the MBP is in and in those cases the Apples are very competitive in terms of quality and Hardware. A T60p which will kinda match a 2500€ MBP costs 2900€ (alas no DVI - not without the docking station anyway, no Firewire but it has the really cool Ultrabay and Cardbus + Expresscard expansion slots). The HPs are also priced similarly. The Dell business line Latitudes don't match the spec of the MBP at all - particularly the GPU is slooooow.

[Joseph Lee]

So if Apple is more expensive than Dell... Dell is more expensive than Dell.

If you're going to look at cost, you have to specify same machine to machine.

In this case, Dell has the XPS M1210 priced at $1522 without any software upgrades. Price it for yourself and see.


Dell XPS M1210
• 12.1" Wide LCD
• Intel Core Duo 2400 (1.83GHz)
• 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
• Integrated Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
• 60GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 10/100Base-T
• CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
• Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 Internal Wireless and Bluetooth
• Remote Control for Windows XP Media Center Edition
• 4.37 lbs
• 5 hour battery life
--------------------------------------------------------
$1522

Advantages: weight, higher resolution webcam, modem


MacBook 1.83GHz Intel Core Duo - White
• 13.3" Wide LCD
• Intel Core Duo 2400 (1.83GHz)
• 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
• Integrated Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
• 60GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 10/100/1000Base-T
• CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
• Airport Extreme and Bluetooth
• Apple Remote
• 5.2 lbs
• 6 hour battery life
--------------------------------------------------------
$1199

Advantages: battery life, screen size, slot loading optical drive, gigabit ethernet, optical digital audio in and out, runs Windows, Mac OS X, Linux.... and finally it costs WAY less.

[hldan]

Originally Posted by Joseph Lee

So if Apple is more expensive than Dell... Dell is more expensive than Dell.

If you're going to look at cost, you have to specify same machine to machine.

In this case, Dell has the XPS M1210 priced at $1522 without any software upgrades. Price it for yourself and see.


Dell XPS M1210
• 12.1" Wide LCD
• Intel Core Duo 2400 (1.83GHz)
• 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
• Integrated Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950 • 60GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 10/100Base-T
• CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
• Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 Internal Wireless and Bluetooth
• Remote Control for Windows XP Media Center Edition
• 4.37 lbs
• 5 hour battery life
--------------------------------------------------------
$1522

Advantages: weight, higher resolution webcam, modem


MacBook 1.83GHz Intel Core Duo - White
• 13.3" Wide LCD
• Intel Core Duo 2400 (1.83GHz)
• 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
• Integrated Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
• 60GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 10/100/1000Base-T
• CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
• Airport Extreme and Bluetooth
• Apple Remote
• 5.2 lbs
• 6 hour battery life
--------------------------------------------------------
$1199

Advantages: battery life, screen size, slot loading optical drive, gigabit ethernet, optical digital audio in and out, runs Windows, Mac OS X, Linux.... and finally it costs WAY less.

I'm not sure exactly where you got those prices from but they must be educational discounts however I still did one better. With no special discounts I matched the Dell XPS 1210 and the MacBook (white) spec for spec and the Dell came out the winner with the highest price.

Dell XPS 1210


Intel® Core™ Duo proc T2500 (2GHz/667MHz/2 X 1MB L2 Cache)
Operating System Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
A/V Communication Package (Intg. web cam, Mobile Broadband Antenna, ear buds)
Memory 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
Video Card Integrated Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
Network Card Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem

Optical Storage Device 8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability

Wireless Networking Cards Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 Internal Wireless and Bluetooth
Office Software (not included in Windows XP) No productivity suite- Corel WordPerfect word processor only
Primary Battery 85 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Future Operating Systems Windows Vista™ Capable
TV Tuner and Remote Control Remote Control for Windows XP Media Center Edition
Dell Digital Entertainment Starter Entertainment Pack - Basic digital Music, Photo and Game experience
TOTAL:$1,737.00


Apple MacBook (white)

Subtotal $1,498.00

Specifications
* 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo
* 1GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x512
* 80GB Serial ATA drive
* SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
* Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* Apple USB Modem
* AirPort Extreme Card & Bluetooth

The 12" Dell comes out at a whomping $200+U.S. more matching spec for spec against the Apple and as you can see it barely comes with any software like the MacBook.

I can still add a copy of Windows XP for the MacBook and come out nearly the same price as the Dell. The Dell only comes out ahead with the DL DVD burner but the Apple comes out ahead with the larger widescreen.
I can still add $150.00 U.S. for the black Macbook and still come out cheaper than the Dell.

This should prove Apple's pricing is quite good against the cheapest computer company on earth.

[Thraxes]

And before somebody comes in and whines "Nobody buys Dell at list price - not with all those MIRs floating about" well not all of us live in the US (thank god ) and Dells at list price is as good as it gets. Well OK, sometimes they have sales with discounts and/or extra kit for "free" but they are relatively rare... and then comes the hideous 75€ shipping charge, what's up with that (that's another 100$ on top of your purchase, 10% of a 1000€ machine!!)

Anyways, Dells offers are going to get fewer and further between after their not so hot fiscal report. I believe they said that they are going to scale back their specials and MIRs in the coming months. Also Intel isn't giving them or any other OEM preferential prices anymore, probably due to their anti-trust problems that AMD helped kick off (which I think is good). So on the whole I think the era of ultracheap Dells is coming to an end. Sucks to be them

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by Sparksymusic

Ultimately, you get what you pay for. I use both PCs & Macs. Macs are definately overpriced and I do believe they should come down a little. However, PCs are cheaper because they do less and still stuff up too much! I found I made up for the cost of my G5 by not spending a lot of time fixing basic PC problems (OS glitches, driver issues etc.) The mac is a big ask upfront but can be worth it in the end. Plus (as mentioned) there is the iSight & smaller size on the Macbook.

yeah, my sister bought a toshiba laptop last summer (nice machine ... great machine actually!) but she is already starting to have problems. i am not sure if it is viruses or what, but she has repeatedly asked me "why is my machine slowing down." now, to be fair, she does a lot of photo-blogging, and her hd might be filling up with junk photos that she should burn to cd-rom, but i doubt gigs of photos would really slow down a practically brand new machine.

virus?

on a similar note, yesterday the it department at work was battling a major virus that brought down the entire network and forced them to basically shut down all pcs until a virus patch could be installed. not pretty. my macbook pro (which i had just received) kept on working, virus free.

not sure that apple is 'the answer' but i know i do not have to largely worry about viruses or other security scares that most pc users do, on top of the constant upgrades to virus protection, etc.

pc users seem paranoid about receiving emails, photos, just about anything... it is really silly, but they have reason to be.

[soulboy]

When I was looking for my new notebook I looked at all the make/specs available to me in my price range (HP, Compaq, e-book, Dell ect). Dell was a no go from day one, last year my sister who is in her 60's decided she wanted a computer and went for a Dell desk top. Not a particularly hight spec but she only wants to e-mail and surf the net. After about 3 months it went wrong, the blue screen of death and just beeped on boot up. I had to contact Dell on her behalf. I have never recieved such appaling after care. 1st line tech when they had asked all the questions on the sheet in front of them they refered me to 2nd line tech. They called back after 3days asked the same questions and then finaly agreed to collect the machine for repair. It was away for a month. The people I spoke to at Dell tech support were sometimes difficult to understand and were not particularly knowlegable about the product.
When my macbook went wrong Apple Store in Regents Steet, London exchanged it immeadiatly and gave me a free upgrade to compensate for my problems/time lost/travel ect. And when I had to contact Applecare about my orange track pad they were honest enogh to admit that they had not stocks in for a week and directed me to a local drop in repair centre near my home. It is going in on 19th Sept while I am away for my break and is guarranteed to be repaired before I return in 7 days. Apple Care is based in the US with an english speaking person who has both good product knowledge and whom I can understand.
When you buy a Macbook this is what you pay for.I am neither loaded nor do I have money to throw away, but what I have I like to invest wisely and I know my Macbook was a wise investment.
I think maybe you have to look at the bigger picture when buying a computer?
So go for the Dell and pray you don't need support.

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by Tarcat

If you are happy paying less for a computer that comes with a worse OS, less software, fewer features, more bulk, and an uglier case than go ahead and get it. You can save money on a lot of things if you make tradeoffs. A Chevy costs less than a Honda. A Sony TV costs more than a generic one. A top quality suit costs more than one at Mens Warehouse.

nothing against people that drive chevy's but i LOVE my honda, probably just slightly less than i love my mac.

[CleoW]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

The real problem is... the Dell doesn't run OS X.

QFT!

[zaghahzag]

Apple's price for what they offer aren't bad. The upgrade prices are sort of outlandish, but its been like that for a long time.

[goMac]

My girlfriend just bought a Macbook Education. About $1150 got her a Macbook, an iPod Nano, and a free printer. Dell probably can't match that.

[aristobrat]

Originally Posted by zaghahzag

Apple's price for what they offer aren't bad. The upgrade prices are sort of outlandish, but its been like that for a long time.

I'm curious, since Steve made the comment about pricing during the WWDC, if the prices for the rest of the Mac line will come down, or if Steve was just talking about the Mac Pro?

[imitchellg5]

All of the line's prices have gone down. Apples have never been as inexpensive, except for the iMac, which was $800 for a few years.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by soulboy

Apple Care is based in the US with an english speaking person who has both good product knowledge and whom I can understand.

AppleCare for Europe is based out of Cork, Ireland.

I have found both their English-speaking and their German-speaking support excellent (though of course not always with a 100% favorable decision resulting, but that's a different matter).

[hldan]

All this discussion about Apple's pricing being good, okay, a little high, really high, too much, lower than some competitors and so on has blown me away because at this point being a dual machine and now using the same processors as their competiors they are in fact worthy of costing a bit more but what irks me is that a company like Sony can make PC notebooks that cost far more than all of their competitors and still offer about the same and nobody says anything about that.
Sony PC's do not dual boot as Macs, they look good but not spectacualar, they come with their own suite of software but it's the same old software for the past several years, they don't even come with software restore disks and Sony has it's share of quality control problems especially when it comes to batteries so why are people still paying a high premium for them and still complain about Apple's pricing? Anyone with a good answer please proceed.

[houstonmacbro]

yeah, i see a LOT of sonys at my college and at coffee shops around houston. folks that own them, love them... much like apple users.

[Elektrix]

There's actually plenty of people who complain about Sony's premium pricing, especially on the upper end (i.e. the most expensive versions of their TX and SZ models, for example).