[vmarks]

http://worldmag.com/displayarticle.cfm?id=10504

Apostasy rules
JORDAN: King Abdullah cuts a tolerant figure, but converts know better | by Mindy Belz





In Jordan's King Abdullah, Washington saw the kinder, gentler face of the Arab world.

Arriving last month to accept an honorary doctorate from Georgetown University, the 43-year-old monarch told American reporters he supports democracy movements spreading from Iraq to Lebanon.

His visit to Washington came just as Arab leaders gathered in Algiers without him. The king skipped a regional summit of the Arab League, even though the most talked-about item on the agenda was a Jordanian peace proposal that for the first time dropped Arab demands that Israel cede all lands it acquired in the 1967 war. Rather than tussle with contentious Arab comrades, he met with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and gave interviews with American reporters. His message: "Islam honors every human being, without distinction of color, race, or religion." Terrorists who struck the United States and elsewhere, he said, "have nothing to do with Islam."

But even as the king projects a more tolerant Islamic face, his record at home does not yet reflect the progressive image.

Ask Samer and Abeer. Last September Jordanian security police connected to the country's Mukhabarat, or intelligence agency, showed up at the couple's home unannounced. They arrested Samer and detained him overnight. Samer's crime: coming to faith in Jesus Christ 14 years ago. Originally a Muslim, Samer over the years since his conversion has been questioned several times by security police but never detained. This time, the police turned him over to the Islamic courts.

Jordan is a constitutional monarchy in name only, with an elected parliament whose decisions are subject to royal fiat and a judicial system that continues to impose strict penalties under Islamic, or Shariah, law. Apostasy, or religious conversion, is rarely punished but remains illegal. Church leaders in Amman say they know of two Muslim-background Christians now in prison because they became Christians, both non-Jordanians and one in solitary confinement.

At his October hearing, Samer was asked to "alter his confession," or recant his Christian faith. He refused. Officials set another court date. In the meantime, Samer made precautionary arrangements for Abeer, his wife, and their 18-month-old son to leave Jordan. (Samer's wife once spent six years in prison for an out-of-wedlock pregnancy before she was taken in by a Christian family and came to faith in Jesus Christ.) At a November hearing before the Islamic court, an exasperated judge told Samer, "We don't know what to do with you." He implored him, saying, "You cannot be a Christian, you must come back to Islam." Samer again refused.

The judges convicted Samer of apostasy. In a Nov. 23 decision the court decreed that his identification papers must be changed from "Muslim" to "no religion"; that he had forfeited any inheritance; that his marriage to Abeer is now illegal, and therefore he is not entitled to custody of his son. The court delivered its decision�finalized in writing only last month�in the name of King Abdullah.

Religious identity laws in Jordan and other largely Muslim countries are the coda to basic human rights. Denied a new religious identity, Samer cannot hold a job, maintain custody of his son, retain legal title in his marriage, or own property. He is regarded as an apostate, and other Muslims can legally attack�even kill�Samer.

Afeef Halaseh, a pastor in Jordan and head of Arabs for the Arabs, has hired a lawyer to bring the case before Jordan's Supreme Court. International human-rights advocates have intervened, sending 4,000 cabled messages from Norway alone to King Abdullah. But whether Samer is to face further punishment or pardon is anyone's guess. Two brothers have threatened his life; Samer has changed his mobile phone number and is in hiding. Mr. Halaseh himself was summoned to appear before security police for questioning last week.

"Samer is surprised at the place he finds himself, the object of so much prayer and attention," said one fellow Christian whom WORLD is not identifying because of the current dangers. "He feels like he is just a normal guy making the only choice possible to him."

[OldManMac]

The United States claims tolerance, yet, after 9/11, many Muslims were unfairly detained, questioned, and often remain under surveillance; what's your point?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by KarlG

The United States claims tolerance, yet, after 9/11, many Muslims were unfairly detained, questioned, and often remain under surveillance; what's your point?

What is your point? Since when is

losing custody of your son
having your marriage declared illegal
not being allowed to hold a job
not being allowed to own property
being required to forfeit any inheritance

since when are any of these things equivalent to being questioned or surveilled?

[OldManMac]

I don't happen to believe that U. S. citizens being illegally detained is any different.

[von Wrangell]

What's your point?

[von Wrangell]

Oh and I forgot:

And why didn't you add this to the already existing thread called Convert or Die? Not enough threads attacking Islam for you?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by vmarks

What is your point? Since when is

losing custody of your son
having your marriage declared illegal
not being allowed to hold a job
not being allowed to own property
being required to forfeit any inheritance

since when are any of these things equivalent to being questioned or surveilled?

Don't you get tired trying to talk sense to such vacuous minds, vmarks? I can only take the political lounge in small doses - from where do you draw such incredible endurance?

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by vmarks

What is your point? Since when is

losing custody of your son
having your marriage declared illegal
not being allowed to hold a job
not being allowed to own property
being required to forfeit any inheritance

since when are any of these things equivalent to being questioned or surveilled?

All that can happen to a gay black American at some point or another. Or just a gay American. Or just a black American. And yes, unlawfully detaining people with no connection to terrorism is just as offensive, and even more ridiculous considering the US makes grand claims of freedom and modernity - something Jordan doesn't do. We know Jordan is backwards and they probably do too.

[Big Mac]

So you're saying that a homosexual (or black homosexual, or Yellow Dalmatian homosexual) can, by statute or otherwise, be barred from all forms of legal employment, barred from owning property, and be subject to a bill of attainder (loss of inheritance), a thing outlawed by the U.S. Constitution? I don't think so, Ronnie. America has its flaws - pick at the ones that exist instead of imaging others.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

What is your point? Since when is

losing custody of your son
having your marriage declared illegal
not being allowed to hold a job
not being allowed to own property
being required to forfeit any inheritance

since when are any of these things equivalent to being questioned or surveilled?

Hmmmm, that list of yours reminds me awfully much of the Israeli Marriage Laws.

[Big Mac]

What would you know of Israeli law?

Here's an idea! Try it without the name calling, and see if maybe you could have an actual discussion instead of carrying on with the same old ********. You know, just for something different.

Love,
ThinkInsane

Thank you for the friendly note ThinkInsane, but we'll have to agree to disagree. I prefer to call von Wrangell exactly what he is. I do not take kindly to the repeated outright libeling of my religion, my people and my spiritual homeland.

[von Wrangell]

deleted

[MacManMikeOSX]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Hmmmm, that list of yours reminds me awfully much of the Israeli Marriage Laws.

Israeli law saws you can't marry outside the faith tha is all, plus anyone that wants to just flies to Cypress so it's moot. Israel is a Jewish state so there is no seperation of religion and state, but Islam is also part of the state as is Christianity. No one in Israel is punished for converting the state sees it all the same it's just the religious courts see it differently.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by MacManMikeOSX

Israeli law saws you can't marry outside the faith tha is all, plus anyone that wants to just flies to Cypress so it's moot. Israel is a Jewish state so there is no seperation of religion and state, but Islam is also part of the state as is Christianity. No one in Israel is punished for converting the state sees it all the same it's just the religious courts see it differently.

Yes, MMM, Israel is a Jewish state, but its government is a secular one. It has some Jewish character to it, but it is decidedly secular. If Israel were a Jewish, Torah based theocracy, as it was in biblical times, the character and history of the modern country would be far different. How can you possibly claim that Israel, as a Jewish state, does not separate religion and state while simultaneously claiming that Christianity and Islam are part of that theocratic state?

[MacManMikeOSX]

Originally Posted by MacManMikeOSX

...the state sees it all the same it's just the religious courts see it differently.

That was pretty clear, ha'im attah yisr'eli? Then you would know that the religious courts function a a part of the civil law of the state and enforce family law. Also the government rigisters everperson in the state a a Jew or anyother ethnicity/religion for the purpose of the Beit ha-Din.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by MacManMikeOSX

That was pretty clear, ha'im attah yisr'eli? Then you would know that the religious courts function a a part of the civil law of the state and enforce family law. Also the government rigisters everperson in the state a a Jew or anyother ethnicity/religion for the purpose of the Beit ha-Din.

ani lo yis'reli, avalni miveen kitsat ivrit - but that's besides the point - you appeared to be saying that Israel is a theocracy, which is obviously inaccurate. von Wrangell wants to distract others from the brutal truth of Islamic theocracy by excoriating Israel over nothing.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by vmarks

http://worldmag.com/displayarticle.cfm?id=10504

Apostasy rules
JORDAN: King Abdullah cuts a tolerant figure, but converts know better | by Mindy Belz

So, what's your point?

(I mean besides the usual: "Arabs/Muslims == teh Devil!!")

[Taliesin]

As I have already shown on the third page of the "convert and die"-thread, there is no basis in the Quran to create a law against changing faith or a law for punishing it, even when the faith is changed to polytheism, much less basis for punishing change of religion between the three monotheistic religions.

But it doesn't surprise me that in Jordan and also in some other arabic dictatorships there are such unislamic laws, because those dictatorial regimes try to appease the majority of muslims that they daily oppress by executing seemingly "Islam-favouring" laws, so that the dictatorial regimes can wrongly claim to be the protector of Islam.

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by KarlG

I don't happen to believe that U. S. citizens being illegally detained is any different.

Which explains a lot.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by eklipse

So, what's your point?

(I mean besides the usual: "Arabs/Muslims == teh Devil!!")

No kidding. Perhaps that guy should have read the law before acting.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Don't you get tired trying to talk sense to such vacuous minds, vmarks? I can only take the political lounge in small doses - from where do you draw such incredible endurance?

Well said. I've often wondered that myself.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

As I have already shown on the third page of the "convert and die"-thread, there is no basis in the Quran to create a law against changing faith or a law for punishing it, even when the faith is changed to polytheism, much less basis for punishing change of religion between the three monotheistic religions.

But it doesn't surprise me that in Jordan and also in some other arabic dictatorships there are such unislamic laws, because those dictatorial regimes try to appease the majority of muslims that they daily oppress by executing seemingly "Islam-favouring" laws, so that the dictatorial regimes can wrongly claim to be the protector of Islam.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

As I have already shown on the third page of the "convert and die"-thread, there is no basis in the Quran to create a law against changing faith or a law for punishing it, even when the faith is changed to polytheism, much less basis for punishing change of religion between the three monotheistic religions.

But it doesn't surprise me that in Jordan and also in some other arabic dictatorships there are such unislamic laws, because those dictatorial regimes try to appease the majority of muslims that they daily oppress by executing seemingly "Islam-favouring" laws, so that the dictatorial regimes can wrongly claim to be the protector of Islam.

Taliesin

So then, these countries are a part of a tiny minority of extremists? appeasing a majority of extremists?

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by KarlG

The United States claims tolerance, yet, after 9/11, many Muslims were unfairly detained, questioned, and often remain under surveillance; what's your point?

Without investigating your point or the legitimacy of it, I must ask you: Even if (hypothetically) America is doing something terribly evil, how does this morally justify what is happening in Jordon?