[vmarks]

We hear a lot about the moderate Muslim who doesn't agree with the actions of folks committing beheadings.

We also hear a lot of agitating that this moderate does not exist, or that everything is the fault of The West and Zionists, depending on who the speaker is.

I would like to take this opportunity to introduce to you the moderate Muslim.

Zainab Al-Suwaij spoke at the Republican National Convention in New York.
The speech is available here: http://victormarks.com/2004RNC/2004%...20Congress.m4a -- option-click or save to disk, play in itunes of winamp.

Who is Zainab Al-Suwaij? She is one of the founders of the American Islamic Congress, http://aicongress.org . "The American Islamic Congress (AIC) is a social organization that is dedicated to building interfaith and interethnic understanding. Our organization grew out of the ashes of September 11. The vicious terrorist attacks made many American Muslims realize that we had been silent for too long in the face of Muslim extremism. We believe American Muslims must take the lead in building tolerance and fostering a respect for human rights and social justice. We have a responsibility to help our country rebuild from this attack, and to our religion to reassert that we are moderate and peace-loving people."

As an Iraqi woman Muslim, her opinion and her organization are especially notable.

Next, I would like to introduce you to Kamal Nawash.

Nawash founded the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terror.

"The Coalition was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts.

The Coalition promotes a modern secular interpretation of Islam which is peace-loving, democracy-loving and compatible with other faiths and beliefs. The Coalition’s efforts are unique; it is the only mainstream American-Muslim organization willing to attack extremism and terrorism unambiguously. Unfortunately most other Muslim leaders believe that in terrorist organizations, the end justifies the means.

As written recently by Khaled Kishtainy, columnist at Al-Sharq Al-Awsat Newspaper, “I place on the Islamic intellectuals and leaders of Islamic organizations part of the responsibility for [this phenomenon] of Islamic terrorism, as nearly all of them advocate violence, and repress anyone who casts doubts upon this. Naturally, every so often they have written about the love and peace of Islam – but they did so, at best, for purposes of propaganda and defense of Islam. Their basic position is that this religion was established by the sword, acts by the sword, and will triumph by the sword, and that any doubt regarding this constitutes a conspiracy against the Muslims.”

-- http://freemuslims.org/about/

These are two organizations headed by two people who recognize a problem and are working for change. They deserve our respect and aid.

Not all is as hopeful: The following is a story of mixed reactions.

Arab News ( http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...d=7&m=9&y=2004 )carries a tut-tutting article about the new jihadist magazine for women, containing the usual protestations about jihad being a spiritual struggle, these people are un-Islamic, etc.


It is particularly and bitterly ironic that this story would appear today, in the wake of the most vivid example since 9/11 of the fact that large and highly motivated groups of Muslims do not think that jihad is simply a spiritual struggle, but warfare against unbelievers, including children. It is also ironic that it would come from Saudi Arabia, a country whose Embassy in the United States was advocating violent jihad and oppression of the dhimmis as recently as last November.


Some highlights of the Arab News piece:

RIYADH, 7 September 2004 — A cross-section of Saudi women has come out strongly against the launch of a new Internet magazine targeting Saudi and other Arab women as well as children in the Al-Qaeda-inspired drive against “infidels in the Arabian Peninsula.”

They said that by calling on women to join in the preparations for Jihad, the deviant group was straying away from the path of Islam, which stands for mercy, compassion, tolerance and justice.


“What do they want to achieve?” asked radio journalist and broadcaster Samar Fatany from Jeddah. “They really need to think about the consequences of their actions. What they are preaching is extremism and revenge which are totally un-Islamic.”


She was confident that the website would have no adverse impact on Saudi women who are “God-fearing and in no way influenced by misguided teachings.”



Oh, and what has caused all these un-Islamic teachings to proliferate? Why, America and Israel, of course:

According to Fatany, the situation reflects the weakness of the Arab world and the inaction on the part of the international community to stand up for justice and peace. She said the “unjust US foreign policy on the one hand and Israeli atrocities against Palestinians on the other have also been responsible for breeding such negative tendencies in the region.”

Another Saudi female journalist Hala Al-Nasser said the promoters of the Internet magazine were giving a twist to the concept of Jihad. “To me, Jihad means constant struggle and perseverance with oneself for the cause of peace.” She said Saudi women would not be attracted by the kind of message being put out on their website.


-----

I'll end on a high note:

From Nonie Darwish:

Among the Chechnyan terrorists that did the unspeakable in a Russian school yesterday where reported to be several Arabs. I am not surprised, but how many Arabs in the Middle East even try to connect the dots and link their current Radical culture of Islam to these unspeakable deeds around the world? They simply do not see the connection and unfortunately the world media is not doing its job in telling the Arab World about it. CNN feels that being “objective” is never to blame Arab culture and end up supportive of Arab views in its delivery of news in the Middle East and around the world.

Until age 30, I lived as a Muslim in the Middle East. Horrible news such as those from Chechnya or other incidents in the Philippines, India, the Sudan or Pakistan, were always covered up and twisted to portray Muslim terrorists around the world as just victims of terrible discrimination. They were always portrayed as “freedom fighters” in the minority who need to rise against the majority Christian or non-Muslim population in their midst. The larger picture in these countries and the reasons behind the turmoil was never explained in any other way. I will never forget the prayers that many gave in support of minority Muslims all over the world who were believed to be the frontier for Jihad in spreading Islam in the “lost” world around them of Dar-El-Harb, the land of war to be conquered by the sword.


I once had a guest from Egypt in my home who was the most kind and wonderful man you will ever meet. While watching Chechnya rebels on TV I saw him pray and cry for their success against the Soviet Union. Praying for killing never seemed holy to me.


The World has been seeing Arab radical terrorism growing without much international outcry for half a century. I started seeing many men and women in my culture of origin turn into robotic monsters with a wish to destroy life on earth to go to heaven. Many thought it is only against Israel and its interests and ignored it. The World and its lazy media is not doing Arabs or the rest of the world any favor by sticking their heads in the sand like ostriches. Even after 9/11, many in the West and the UN are still finding excuses for terrorism. Even the Arab’s best friends, the French, thought they will get special treatment from terrorists by selling out the US and supporting Saddam Hussein. But in the eyes of the terrorists the French were always just temporary friends until the right time came to strike; one enemy at a time.


Where are Muslim demonstrations against terror? All I noticed was celebrations in the Arab world after 9/11. Taking a stand against terrorism and for reformations in the Muslim world is viewed as an Israeli conspiracy. The very few courageous Arab writers who think and speak independently are often attacked and terrorized for their views, and accused of being puppets of the Zionists. Apparently standing strong against terrorism and for reformations in the Muslim world is viewed as “Zionist” conspiracy no matter how heinous the murders conducted by militant Islamists.



Since 1967 there have been thousand of Arab terrorist attacks. Israel had only one against the Arabs by a crazy man that was condemned by almost all of Israel’s citizens. The Israeli government never tried the Arabs who beat the attacker to death after he surrendered. Yet I hear apologists for terrorism here cite that one incident as justification for the thousands and thousands terrorist attacks Israel and America over the years. Even worse, how many resolutions by the UN Commission on Human Rights condemning an Arab country for human rights violations have ever been proposed or passed? The answer is zero. But the number of Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations is 26. Imagine that. Is there any doubt that much of the state-sponsored and culturally encouraged terrorism all over the Middle East by the Arab states is not a violation of someone’s human rights? Could it be that the UN is contributing to the problem?


After I saw the horror on the faces of the Russian children who looked malnourished and poverty stricken to begin with, I decided to make a stand against the Islamic culture of terror I grew up in and the madness resulting from its teachings. The intense and repetitive teachings of hate produce inhumane robots. Make no mistake about it, my motivation is out of love for the goodness in the Muslim world to prevail and that I do know exists. Accusing me of being part of a “Zionist conspiracy” is a joke at this point from the other side to cover up what is going on.



It is time for the world media and the UN to take a serious stand against Islamic, yes, Islamic, terror. The UN should immediately issue a very strong resolution condemning terrorism with serious consequences to Oil rich Arab countries that finance terrorism or teach that terrorists are heroes going to heaven. No “ifs,” “ands” or “buts” and no diluted language by the international media. The out-of-control culture in the Middle East needs a wake up call and a dose of reality. I cannot defend the cruel teachings and hate speech in my culture of origin any more. No other Arab with any integrity should. There is no cause in the world that should justify this insanity. I lived it and know what will end it. What is needed immediately is a united world stand against the Arab’s stagnant and barbaric view of the world and of themselves. The world cannot stand by, confused and equivocal about 9/11 and Islamic terrorism any more.


Please, America and the good people of the world, save my Arab culture of origin from itself.


Please.


End.


It is time for the World media and the UN to make a serious stand against Islamic, yes Islamic, terror. The UN should immediately issue a very strong resolution condemning terrorism with serious consequences to Oil rich Arab countries that finance terrorism or teach that terrorists are heroes going to heaven. The out-of-control culture in the Middle East needs a wake up call and a dose of reality. I cannot defend the cruel teachings and hate speech in the Arab world that I grew up with. No other Arab with any integrity should. There is no cause in the world that should justify this insanity. I lived it and know what will end it. What is needed immediately is a united world stand against the Arab’s stagnant and barbaric view of the world and of themselves. The world cannot stand by, confused and equivocal about 9/11 and Islamic terrorism any more.

[vmarks]

Oh, I left one out:

Iraqi columnist Aziz Al-Hajj wrote on the progressive Internet site http://www.elaph.com : "What kind of national cause is this that uses children like gasoline for igniting a total war of destruction in the name of national and religious liberty?… The Islamic-Arab terrorism has turned into the greatest danger in the world, and threatens civilization, security, and life everywhere. It is today the symbol of evil, religious fanaticism, and moral degradation, and it is the essence of political crime in today's world… Islamic terrorism is the outcome of 'moderate' political Islam, as it is generally described. The latest proof of this is Sheikh [Yousef] Al-Qaradhawi's religious legal ruling [ fatwa ] calling for the killing of all Americans in Iraq…

"The Arabs and the Muslims today contribute nothing to civilization and progress except for blood, severed heads, scorched bodies, and the abduction and murder of children. The Jihad for religion and Arab chivalry have turned into the art of exploding, booby-trapping, and spilling blood. What an innovation and what a social contribution the Arabs have made in the 21st century!!"

[vmarks]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...jrl10609091035

A Palestinian militant^H^H^H^H^H^H^H terrorist of Hamas wires a makeshift explosive device as children stand near him, in a narrow alleyway of the refugee camp of Jebaliya, outside Gaza City, Thursday Sept. 9, 2004.

[djohnson]

Very interesting...

[placebo1969]

Originally posted by vmarks:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...jrl10609091035

A Palestinian militant^H^H^H^H^H^H^H terrorist of Hamas wires a makeshift explosive device as children stand near him, in a narrow alleyway of the refugee camp of Jebaliya, outside Gaza City, Thursday Sept. 9, 2004.

[PacHead]

I'm sorry, but had that bomb exploded, then I have one simple question to ask.

Where are the parents of those children ?

Any culture or people that willingly uses children or puts them willingly in danger is sick. Those people obviously do not hold the same values that we do. I guess that's why when we see some interview with the mother of some murdering maniac, terrorist who has just been "martyred", some of them say "Oh allah, blah blah blah, I hope my other children follow in this glorious path, blah blah blah". Maybe that's why they have like 9 children a piece.

[vmarks]

My third post above was NOT to draw attention to just that incident, but to show it as counterpoint to the very very young (but I hope growing) publicly moderate Muslim organizations that protest and work to counter their murderous brothers.

Don't focus on that incident, there are thousands like it. Focus on it in light of these new voices we're hearing.

[placebo1969]

Originally posted by vmarks:
My third post above was NOT to draw attention to just that incident, but to show it as counterpoint to the very very young (but I hope growing) publicly moderate Muslim organizations that protest and work to counter their murderous brothers.

Don't focus on that incident, there are thousands like it. Focus on it in light of these new voices we're hearing.

Perhaps change is occurring. However, if this board is any indication, it will be a long time before this crap gets any better.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Don't focus on that incident, there are thousands like it. Focus on it in light of these new voices we're hearing.

Yes, I have heard about the freemuslims site, and checked it out before. Hopefully more of them step up to the plate. Those deserve our support, I agree.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...jrl10609091035

A Palestinian militant^H^H^H^H^H^H^H terrorist of Hamas wires a makeshift explosive device as children stand near him, in a narrow alleyway of the refugee camp of Jebaliya, outside Gaza City, Thursday Sept. 9, 2004.

You must be joking, that photograph just shows a masked man in military uniform looking at the other side, while lowering to reduce his surface.

On topic of moderate muslims, espescially the american based group and the Iraqi-commentator, you also must be joking: Don't you remember what Bush said, something like that:" The war on terror can't be won, but we can try to make it -the use of terrorism- less acceptable..."

What you just posted is one part of that tactic, to finance seemingly islamic born, but changed to atheistic or agnostic belief-systems, people that are willing to condemn and criticize the violent aspects of Islam and the Quran, in order to try to make Islam a pacifistic religion.

Just like the US preached the jihad for the muslims decades ago, in order to recruit mujahideens that could be sacrificed in the war against the Soviet-Union in Afghanistan, and tried to manipulate the islamic religion to be more violent than it was, it is nowadays trying the exact opposite to try to manipulate the islamic religion to be more pacifistic than it ever was.

Islam is neither of the two extremes, it's not the decades ago US-preached radical jihad-ideology, nor is it the nowadays favoured and propagated pacifistic treehugging religion, it's in the middle:

When attacked or oppressed, violence to stop the attackers as well as the oppression is prescripted. Retaliation for killed civilians is though only allowed, not prescripted.

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Another great post by vmarks.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
You must be joking, that photograph just shows a masked man in military uniform looking at the other side, while lowering to reduce his surface.

On topic of moderate muslims, espescially the american based group and the Iraqi-commentator, you also must be joking: Don't you remember what Bush said, something like that:" The war on terror can't be won, but we can try to make it -the use of terrorism- less acceptable..."

What you just posted is one part of that tactic, to finance seemingly islamic born, but changed to atheistic or agnostic belief-systems, people that are willing to condemn and criticize the violent aspects of Islam and the Quran, in order to try to make Islam a pacifistic religion.

Just like the US preached the jihad for the muslims decades ago, in order to recruit mujahideens that could be sacrificed in the war against the Soviet-Union in Afghanistan, and tried to manipulate the islamic religion to be more violent than it was, it is nowadays trying the exact opposite to try to manipulate the islamic religion to be more pacifistic than it ever was.

Islam is neither of the two extremes, it's not the decades ago US-preached radical jihad-ideology, nor is it the nowadays favoured and propagated pacifistic treehugging religion, it's in the middle:

When attacked or oppressed, violence to stop the attackers as well as the oppression is prescripted. Retaliation for killed civilians is though only allowed, not prescripted.

Taliesin

yes and there is nothing near his right foot with a wire running to his hands and there is no child in the background holding his ears shut... hmm waiting for it to explode prematurly or does he jsut enjoy the feeling of somthing over his ears?

[vmarks]

http://www.interesting-people.org/ar.../msg00121.html

Logic, apparently lots of decent Muslim folks are willing to recognize a tragedy when they see it.

"Dear Professor Farber,
I ran across this page today, and wanted to share it with the IP list:

http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148

I do not really know how to express it, but the article is more eloquent than I am. As a muslim, I too would like to say sorry for 9-11.

mohammad al-ubaydli"

[mojo2]

WOW! What an insightful topic. But the thread title??

"WITHER" is likely the fate of any thread topic starting with the word, "WHITHER."

Sorry.

(Pronunciation Key)
whith·er Listen: [ hwr, w- ]
adv.
To what place, result, or condition: Whither are we wandering?
conj.

To which specified place or position: landed on the shores whither the storm had tossed them.

To whatever place, result, or condition: "Whither thou goest, I will go" (Ruth 1:16).

My answer to your question posed more than a YEAR ago, is: Apparently, nowhere.