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America, to be envied (Page 2)
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angaq0k
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Mar 22, 2004, 07:47 AM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
Nationalism is so 20th century. Get with the millennium. Globalization is the new game in town.

That said, Canada is clearly the best � country in the world. Look it up.

Oh and this is China�s century. Prepare to bow to your new overlords!
Although I am a fellow Canadian, I would not dare say it is the best country.

I do not believe any country is "the best". All have pretty important problems, once we remove the hype...

But the real problem is when you start to put countries on a flat surface and try to compare them. It does not work that way. You can only compare aspects (history, employment, life expectancy, etc.) but the list of items is so long, the cultures and values so different, that making a common denominator to compare them all is virtually impossible.

As to compare countries on the basis of their ideals, remember that a country does not think; it cannot have ideals. Only a population can do that, and as you can tell from polls, there is a variety of opinions. But basically, wherever you are, and whoever you are, people are people and they aspire to comfort, peace, and self-esteem.

The problem is when one decides that his or her ideals should be the ideals of everyone...

Regarding globalization, although the romantic aspect of it is very appealing, let's remember that this globalization is about the financial benefits of corporations (a minority) who cannot care for border fees and taxes. This also means an exportation of jobs to other countries (at the expense of the populations of industrialized countries).

I also agree it is China's century, and that explains why America is quick on its skis to cover the area of Middle East and the new countries of the ex-USSR, which means becoming friends with more totalitarian states...
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
Orion27
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Mar 22, 2004, 08:45 AM
 
Lerkfish:
"Don't say security, because we've proven ourselves the biggest threat to their security.
Don't say freedom, because any freedom we provide has strings attached.
Don't say stability, because we've only introduced instability"

Why don't you give us some examples of the above?


angaq0k
"Regarding globalization, although the romantic aspect of it is very appealing, let's remember that this globalization is about the financial benefits of corporations (a minority) who cannot care for border fees and taxes. This also means an exportation of jobs to other countries (at the expense of the populations of industrialized countries).

I also agree it is China's century, and that explains why America is quick on its skis to cover the area of Middle East and the new countries of the ex-USSR, which means becoming friends with more totalitarian states"

So corporations ( american ) provide jobs in India. That is a bad thing? Friedman of the NYT's thinks it may be a good model to introdudce to the Palestinians. I think the the decentralization of the corporation is a good thing. Aren't you complaining about the big corporate monolith? Your talking out of both side of your mouth AKA Kerry.

And making deals with more totalitarian states: With whom are you talking? Poland?
Germany? Romania? Turkey? _Albania,_Belarus
___Bosnia
___Croatia
___Czech Republic
___Estonia
___Germany
___Hungary
___Latvia
___Lithuania
___Moldova
___Poland
___Romania
___Russia
___Serbia
___Slovakia
___Ukraine
You will find a lot of grateful allies here!
     
christ
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Mar 22, 2004, 09:21 AM
 
OK - the USA is special.

We are all special.

Why is it that this non-American woman seems to think that it is necessary to proseletyse?

The USA is a self-interested country, full of folk that thinks that it is so special that the rest of the world wants to be citizens of their country. Other countries (maybe even most other countries) are similar.

These people are (in general) wrong.

Most folk want to be citizens of their own country, and not only do they not want to move to the USA (or elsewhere), they don't want their country remade in the image of the USA (or elsewhere).

People that spend a good deal of their time telling other people why they should be envious of someone else should be ignored, as they are nothing better than trouble makers and rabble rousers.

The USA, its people, and in particular its president, do not know what is best for other countries, and so it is about time that it stopped trying to enforce its way of life on them.

By what arrogance can any one country decide that this is it, they are the pinnacle of evolution, and everyone else should be remade in their image? Is it any wonder, when they display such arrogance, that they become a target for those that disagree?

No - the USA is not to be envied.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 22, 2004, 09:24 AM
 
they don't want their country remade in the image of the USA (or elsewhere).
That's a hard thing to buy when it seems like every other country is absolutely crazy about American popular culture. Music, movies, television, clothes, all of it gets inhaled by other countries while they say how they don't want to emulate us out of the corners of their mouths. Actions speak louder than words. Biggest example: Baywatch being the world's most popular television show...
     
eklipse
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Mar 22, 2004, 09:29 AM
 
Originally posted by christ:
OK - the USA is special.

We are all special.

Why is it that this non-American woman seems to think that it is necessary to proseletyse?

The USA is a self-interested country, full of folk that thinks that it is so special that the rest of the world wants to be citizens of their country. Other countries (maybe even most other countries) are similar.

These people are (in general) wrong.

Most folk want to be citizens of their own country, and not only do they not want to move to the USA (or elsewhere), they don't want their country remade in the image of the USA (or elsewhere).

People that spend a good deal of their time telling other people why they should be envious of someone else should be ignored, as they are nothing better than trouble makers and rabble rousers.

The USA, its people, and in particular its president, do not know what is best for other countries, and so it is about time that it stopped trying to enforce its way of life on them.

By what arrogance can any one country decide that this is it, they are the pinnacle of evolution, and everyone else should be remade in their image? Is it any wonder, when they display such arrogance, that they become a target for those that disagree?

No - the USA is not to be envied.
     
eklipse
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Mar 22, 2004, 09:32 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
That's a hard thing to buy when it seems like every other country is absolutely crazy about American popular culture. Music, movies, television, clothes, all of it gets inhaled by other countries while they say how they don't want to emulate us out of the corners of their mouths. Actions speak louder than words. Biggest example: Baywatch being the world's most popular television show...
People in general are 'crazy' about other peoples' culture - it's not just about America.
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 22, 2004, 09:59 AM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
People in general are 'crazy' about other peoples' culture - it's not just about America.
I can't get enough Abba. Ace of Base and Roxette.
     
Orion27
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Mar 22, 2004, 10:14 AM
 
CHRIST!

Like I said what would happen if we would cut and walk away?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 22, 2004, 10:15 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
I can't get enough Abba. Ace of Base and Roxette.
*SMACKDOWN*
     
Ayelbourne
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Mar 22, 2004, 10:19 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
I can't get enough Abba. Ace of Base and Roxette.
Well, I sure can. Don't care for any of 'em.

However, the fact remains that they all scored number one crossover hits in the U.S., if I recall correctly. ABBA scored eight number one albums and nineteen top ten hits in Great Britain, and one number one single coupled with three top ten singles in the U.S.. If you ask me though, I think it has more to do with being able to write catchy pop tunes than cross-cultural fascination. It certainly doesn't mean Americans who like(d) that type of music want(ed) to move to Sweden.


Also, I think that fact that "Baywatch" was a number one show anywhere does the human race no credit whatsoever.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 22, 2004, 10:26 AM
 
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:06 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I think it's a tie, don't you?



-s* (likes ABBA - sometimes)
     
phoenixboy
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:14 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
I can't get enough Abba. Ace of Base and Roxette.
abba kicks a$$ on britney spears!

So keep on living And don`t start giving The devil good reasons To get you in the seasons of heartbreak Baby are you tough enough?
     
Lerkfish
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:16 AM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
Lerkfish:
"Don't say security, because we've proven ourselves the biggest threat to their security.
Don't say freedom, because any freedom we provide has strings attached.
Don't say stability, because we've only introduced instability"

Why don't you give us some examples of the above?
hmm...the fact that you ask for examples seems to indicate you've missed my point. Perhaps a more revealing post would be if you provided examples of how we've increased security, freedom without strings, or stability.
Why don't you give us examples of those?

but, if you have to have everything spelled out:

"Don't say security, because we've proven ourselves the biggest threat to their security.
----- Bush has made an enemies list of nations next on the chopping block. The administration has made it clear even long time allies must toe the USA line or be faced with consequences. The administration has preemptively regime changed a nation that ultimately was no threat. The administration has made it clear that the UN is "irrelevant". The president has labeled himself a "war president", and has said "bring it on" to various terrorist groups.
Don't say freedom, because any freedom we provide has strings attached.
Not just this administration, but all american administrations have had this "whatever is in america's best interests" mentality, whether it is regime changing or threatening countries, or simply strongarming or influencing through embargoes, trade or behind the scenes diplomacy, the US has always granted "freedom" with limits, and with strings attached. We have even done the opposite, taken a democracy and replaced it with a Shah that we felt we could more easily control. Its all about control, which of course, makes the oxymoron: controlled freedom. obviously another cannot be truly free if they are only free to work in our interests.
Don't say stability, because we've only introduced instability"
Since Bush has been in office, how many military operations have we been involved in that "regime changed" a country? Two? ok, so in less than 4 years we've changed the face of a region dramatically. Even if those changes are for the better...that introduces a huge amount of instability.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:17 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
I can't get enough Abba. Ace of Base and Roxette.
Bowie, Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Hendrix (who was of no interest to America until after he hit it big in Europe), milli vanilli, Modern Talking, sushi, karaoke, and "American" rocket science.

All imports.



-s*
     
paully dub
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:54 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Bowie, Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Hendrix (who was of no interest to America until after he hit it big in Europe), milli vanilli, Modern Talking, sushi, karaoke, and "American" rocket science.

All imports.



-s*
Naturally the case could be made that most of the above artists were heavily influenced by R&B and Blues music coming from the States. And we haven't even begun to talk about other influences, like Reggae or Latin music.

But then again we wouldn't have all this music if it weren't for the slave trade, which brought all these talented indivuals over to the western hemisphere in the first place.

Gotta give the US a lot of credit for that!

Adopt-A-Yankee
     
Ayelbourne
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:59 AM
 
Oh, man, it would have been better for everybody if you hadn't brought up Milli Vanilli. *shiver*

Actually, come to think of it, it's arguable that Milli Vanilli presaged the current state of pop music in the U.S. today...
     
Nicko
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Mar 22, 2004, 12:00 PM
 
Originally posted by paully dub:
Naturally the case could be made that most of the above artists were heavily influenced by R&B and Blues music coming from the States. And we haven't even begun to talk about other influences, like Reggae or Latin music.

But then again we wouldn't have all this music if it weren't for the slave trade, which brought all these talented indivuals over to the western hemisphere in the first place.

Gotta give the US a lot of credit for that!
Ofcourse it depends on how far back in time you wanna go
     
christ
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Mar 22, 2004, 12:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
CHRIST!

Like I said what would happen if we would cut and walk away?
Why don't you just try it, and see.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
christ
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Mar 22, 2004, 12:23 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
That's a hard thing to buy when it seems like every other country is absolutely crazy about American popular culture. Music, movies, television, clothes, all of it gets inhaled by other countries while they say how they don't want to emulate us out of the corners of their mouths. Actions speak louder than words. Biggest example: Baywatch being the world's most popular television show...
Look at this in context.

How many Iraqis were "absolutely crazy about American popular culture"?

And yet you feel that it is your duty to export your way of life to Iraq.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 22, 2004, 12:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
Oh, man, it would have been better for everybody if you hadn't brought up Milli Vanilli. *shiver*

Actually, come to think of it, it's arguable that Milli Vanilli presaged the current state of pop music in the U.S. today...
The Monkees were faking *long* before Milli Vanilli.

And to be honest, bringing up Modern Talking pained me more...

-s*
     
angaq0k
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Mar 22, 2004, 07:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Orion27:
CHRIST!

Like I said what would happen if we would cut and walk away?
Before you walk away, you might want to take a good look at what was done in your name and see how you can fix it. And then apologize.

And the others should join in;

France, Great Britain, Switzerland, Canada, USSR, etc. Make them all accountable for their actions (and inactions) and see all that they can do to repair their own mistakes as well... And then apologize as well.

No, the U.S. is not the only one to blame...

Then leave the people of those countries make their own accountable for their actions and judge them appropriately.

Then sit down and start to talk for real, see if we can all learn from our mistakes, and see if we can try to do better from now on.

Come on. We are all grown ups now...
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 22, 2004, 07:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Bowie, Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Hendrix (who was of no interest to America until after he hit it big in Europe), milli vanilli, Modern Talking, sushi, karaoke, and "American" rocket science.

All imports.



-s*
the british invasion stands out, but half the names you listed above built their styles on their intense love of.. the blues.

rocket science was definitely a multinational effort. but robert goddard had a liquid fueled rocket flying in 1926.. he was first.

you won't hear me stick up for edison, though.
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 22, 2004, 07:50 PM
 
Originally posted by christ:
Look at this in context.

How many Iraqis were "absolutely crazy about American popular culture"?
I don't know, I haven't asked any Iraqis. Have you? How much American culture have they ever been exposed to since Saddam was in power?

How much do you want to bet there will be the silhouette of the golden arches in front of the setting sun in Baghdad within 10 years, right alongside the silhouettes of those mosques?

Sure enough it happened in Japan, USSR and China it will happen in the mid east.

And yet you feel that it is your duty to export your way of life to Iraq.
I never said anything of the sort.
     
Ayelbourne
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Mar 22, 2004, 08:22 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
you won't hear me stick up for edison, though.
Hey, if it wasn't for Edison, we'd all be watching television by candlelight...
     
angaq0k
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Mar 22, 2004, 08:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
Hey, if it wasn't for Edison, we'd all be watching television by candlelight...
LOL!
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
ghost_flash
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Mar 22, 2004, 09:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
Hey, if it wasn't for Edison, we'd all be watching television by candlelight...
You got light? Shait. I'm relying on the glow from my Powerbook and the television so I can read a book. err.
...
     
christ
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Mar 23, 2004, 04:36 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
I never said anything of the sort.
Maybe you didn't, but your President has. (I used 'you' to mean 'citizens of the USA', sorry for my confusing use of English)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 23, 2004, 06:28 AM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
the british invasion stands out, but half the names you listed above built their styles on their intense love of.. the blues.
...which is based upon central-African court music and the "old way" of singing imported from Europe (still to be found on the Orkney Islands) and abandoned by white US churches in the 19th century.

How far back do you want to go?

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
rocket science was definitely a multinational effort. but robert goddard had a liquid fueled rocket flying in 1926.. he was first.
The US space program was pretty much run by Wernher von Braun, who was imported from the Nazis after the war. (He was never tried for his crimes, BTW, IIRC.)

-s*
     
Ayelbourne
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Mar 23, 2004, 07:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
...which is based upon central-African court music and the "old way" of singing imported from Europe (still to be found on the Orkney Islands) and abandoned by white US churches in the 19th century.

How far back do you want to go?
Which, I suppose, begs the question: would the slaves taken from Africa and bought from slave traders by Americans have been so "blue" if they hadn't been slaves taken from Africa? As I understand it, field hollers (for example) were a form of long range communication, but they were also a codified transmission of an oppressed and terrorised people that the "masters" didn't understand. The calls were allowed because it was believed to increase productivity when the slaves sang during forced labor. Some historians argue (quite reasonably, in my opinion) that all early gospel music was codified protest against slavery "hidden in plain sight", as it were - a plaintive belief in eventual liberation from oppression, tyranny and terror. Not in the afterlife, but in reality.
     
Sven G
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Mar 23, 2004, 07:54 AM
 
... And don't forget the Spaghetti Westerns: a great example of European-American cultural cross-pollination.

For example:





etc. etc.
( Last edited by Sven G; Mar 23, 2004 at 09:17 AM. )

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 23, 2004, 11:32 AM
 
Originally posted by Ayelbourne:
Some historians argue (quite reasonably, in my opinion) that all early gospel music was codified protest against slavery "hidden in plain sight", as it were - a plaintive belief in eventual liberation from oppression, tyranny and terror. Not in the afterlife, but in reality.
I was separating the content from the delivery.

Gospel, however, is church music, not field music. The choral style goes back to vocal music imported in the (IIRC) 16th century, and was practised by white ministries up until the mid-19th century, when it was passed on (as "Old Style") to the first permitted black congregations, while the white churches moved on to the "New Style" of church choral still practised in American churches today. The style of delivery, with "shouting", "growling", etc., goes back to African traditions (and is incidentally also found in instrumental blues and jazz).

-s*
     
Ayelbourne
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Mar 23, 2004, 12:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I was separating the content from the delivery.

Gospel, however, is church music, not field music. The choral style goes back to vocal music imported in the (IIRC) 16th century, and was practised by white ministries up until the mid-19th century, when it was passed on (as "Old Style") to the first permitted black congregations, while the white churches moved on to the "New Style" of church choral still practised in American churches today. The style of delivery, with "shouting", "growling", etc., goes back to African traditions (and is incidentally also found in instrumental blues and jazz).

-s*
Seeing as you are "the organ guy", I will definitely defer to your authority on this! Say, since I have you on the line, I remember reading that "blue notes" are attempts to replicate microtonalities of denser African scales. Is that true?
     
 
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