[NeilCharter]

Okay all you unix geeks out there - here's your chance.
I got an email from an Apple rep asking if there are any UNIX apps that should be in OSX.
He needs the info by tonight - so post your request by 5 pacific time and I'll pass it on.

Neil

[tz3gm]

rootless X11 support
MIT or Merit radius server
Linux emulation as in FreeBSD

damn, so many ideas, so little time, i'll get back to you...let me know if these are even possible at this stage of the OS development...

ps. well i know that the first one can be done, and is being done now, but it would be nice to have it included

[Gametes]

It looks to me -- and I'm a beginner, not an expert -- like Apple has pulled off pretty well all the Unix-needs-this-to-work apps, leaving only frivolous "fun" apps that show they actually know what Unix is and how to use it.
You know, elite software, and stuff like that. When you peak into the /usr/local/bin directory and see that Apple already has BitchX and Links, then you see that they have used OS X's Unixface, and aren't just faking it.
So, to further prove their X-savvyness, I recommend they go on and preinstall all the cool Unix apps everybody is going to install anyway.
osxfaq.com basically has a great list of ports, as does macaddict.
pine, etc.

Since I'm just a consumer-level user, I respectfully leave mention of professional apps to other users.

------------------
"This works that doesn't apple locked root out will it come back this hardware no longer kernal panics means apple going backwards this or that software now crashes..... build 4k29 ak47 On and on." -Scott_H, the one and only English mutilating, word modulating, Mac OS X moderator.
All that matters to me is the Dock perversion.

[tz3gm]

Originally posted by tz3gm:
rootless X11 support
MIT or Merit radius server
Linux emulation as in FreeBSD

damn, so many ideas, so little time, i'll get back to you...let me know if these are even possible at this stage of the OS development...

ps. well i know that the first one can be done, and is being done now, but it would be nice to have it included

can they put in gcc and other compilers?
is vi and ee there?
put those in too if they're not there
how about pine...sorry i wiped OSXPB off my imac 350Mhz

[zebu]

a couple that come to mind are:
vim my fav text editor
scp secure copy is a must in my environment
lsof awesome tool listing all the resources a process has and more
screens another can't live without utility for managing multiple terminal sessions on a remote host

[tz3gm]

Originally posted by zebu:
a couple that come to mind are:
vim my fav text editor
scp secure copy is a must in my environment
lsof awesome tool listing all the resources a process has and more
screens another can't live without utility for managing multiple terminal sessions on a remote host

yes i forgot yes yes yes...screens are very important....i use them in freebsd all the time esp. in case one screen is busy

[muchfresh]

SSH - was in there in PB apperently its not in the latest builds, critiacal
X Windows - Rootless X windows would make porting tons of UNIX apps very easy
OpenBSD security - OpenBSD has some cool security technologies Access Control Lists and File system encryption


but rootless x windows would be the coolest!

[Milio]

Oracle Server (and related tools)
WebTrends
ColdFusion Server

Commercial apps, but it's what I want.

[Ghoser777]

bzip2
a working renice/nice

That's all i need (for now)
F-bacher

[monodromy]

teTex was the first unix package which I compiled when I got OSX PB. So it would be great if it were included, with a dvi viewer. These
might tempt people in the mathematical sciences to switch
from linux.

[monodromy]

teTex was the first unix package which I compiled when I got OSX PB. So it would be great if it were included, with a dvi viewer. These
might tempt people in the mathematical sciences to switch
from linux.

[JB72]

Yup rootless X11 and a Linux emulator.



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JB71.338x

Dock Pervert? You bet your ascot I am!

[ratfink]

Originally posted by NeilCharter:
Okay all you unix geeks out there - here's your chance.
I got an email from an Apple rep asking if there are any UNIX apps that should be in OSX.
He needs the info by tonight - so post your request by 5 pacific time and I'll pass it on.

Neil

I havent looked to see if they're in there now, but I'd love to have PHP4 and PostgreSQL. These are larger scale apps, but I'd like to see them.

Geof

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"I can see the future, and it's a place about seventy miles east of here."

[tz3gm]

Originally posted by JB72:
Yup rootless X11 and a Linux emulator.

do u think that they can do the rootless X11 and the linux emulator....a big big big one

[Oneota]

I'd like to see emacs with mouse-menu support. I know it probably depends on the X11 libraries to work, but I find it really tough to use emacs without being able to click the cool little menus.

[TikTokk]

SAMBA SAMBA SAMBA!

I'd also like to see SAMBA on the CD.

[tz3gm]

Originally posted by NeilCharter:
Okay all you unix geeks out there - here's your chance.
I got an email from an Apple rep asking if there are any UNIX apps that should be in OSX.
He needs the info by tonight - so post your request by 5 pacific time and I'll pass it on.

Neil

do you know for sure or what seems likely that will get in at all, otherwise we're all wasting hot air....

pls. let us know what seems reasonable and what doesn't

[spledekowitz]

GIMP!!!

EVEN more important:

-ALL the JPG, ect libraries to have complete functionality under X windows (or a rootless X window)

-Window Maker (Not sure if this would be needed or not with the rootless X thing)

-Koffice/StarOffice/or a similar product

Some version of TeX, preferably teTeX, with an editor/previewer. Maybe they should include TexShop.

[naepstn]

VNC Viewer and server, please!!!

Pretty sure my company would buy me a G4 for use at work if it came with this software. It might well require rootless X11 first, but while we're in the begging mood...

[lgerbarg]

Originally posted by barney (not the dinosaur):
Some version of TeX, preferably teTeX, with an editor/previewer. Maybe they should include TexShop.

My vote would have to go for LaTeX2e ;-)

Louis

[Hinson]

An X version of emacs (AFTER the rootless X11, of course), latex, dvips, dvipdf, latex2html and other latex/dvi related apps.

-Jay

[JB72]

Oh of course a compiler.

But, I wonder if he is asking about quick/easy Unix apps that they could just bundle with the OS, as opposed to those that would require some real work. If they're going to get srious I would like to see Gimp and VNC server built into Aqua (in addition to X11 & Linux emulation, or course.)


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JB71.338x

Dock Pervert? You bet your ascot I am!

[MadBrowser]

My plea to Apple is to NOT REMOVE gnutar and ssh!

I've heard they're axed because of licensing reasons... Very bad

A version of "ls" that is colorized!

Now that's easy to include and has NO disadvantage.

[tz3gm]

from all of this...it seems what is imp't is...

X11 and linux emulation...
rootless X window support
can be done in time?

[The DJ]

ssh
samba
but nothing over the 10 Megs.
i want utilities, no programs like teTex etc. ppl can go download that themselves.

[tz3gm]

neilcharter are you there? or is this list gonna go to waste?

ssh: This is a must. The lawyers are probably still scared of the blatantly unconstitutional US export restrictions. Come on Apple, take a stand here.

gnutar: A bit trickier, given that nobody (including Stallman) can say for sure how the GPL would apply in this case. tar is ok in most cases, there is a problem with long filenames but if you run into that problem you know enough to download and install gnutar anyway. (The gnutar situation illustrates why any open source software I write will have a BSD license, not GPL).

I'd also like to see lynx or links, they're very useful over a telnet^H^H^H^H^H^H ssh connection, and even locally when you need a really fast browser.

[gorgonzola]

I doubt they can have X11 rootless properly working in time, maybe for a summer update?

Tell them that PLEASE include a fully working standard version of gcc.

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[crazyjohnson]

Originally posted by barney (not the dinosaur):
Some version of TeX, preferably teTeX, with an editor/previewer. Maybe they should include TexShop.

Sweet . . Sweet . . . Sweet . . . that would go over real well with the education crowd. I think TeXShop is open source . . . so maybie Apple could make iTeX!

[NeilCharter]

So I made a list from everything you guys posted and sent it off. I also included the link to the forum so they can go and see for themselves what people want. I guess that if you still have suggestions - post them even now and someone will probably see it. The guy who wanted the info was responsible for setting up the Science and Edu site for OSX.

Anyway, thanks for all your help and maybe you'll get what you asked for.

Neil

[JBL]

I see I am too late, but for what it is worth...

I would like to see some sort of implimentation of LISP. I believe there are opensource versions of Common Lisp. Maybe Scheme also.

I would also like to see a PostScript to PDF converter. This would be useful since I have a lot of PostScript files which I could easily generate under MacOS 8 but everything in OS X wants PDF. Again, I believe there is such a beast that comes as part of the Gnu GhostScript package.

[gabrielf]

MySQL with a nice GUI
A GUI to Apache so you can configure it for real not just on/off
PHP4

I don't know if these are already included but it would be nice with some firewall software and maybe some ip-routing software.

/Gabbe

I'm not too fussed about the client version of macosx, but for god's sake if you're going to ship a RDBMS with the operating system, ship PostgreSQL ahead of MySQL. MySQL might be okay for some quick and dirty database work but PostgreSQL is miles ahead in supporting the advanced features that serious database developers demand, such as:
1) transactions
2) relational integrity
3) OO features
4) etc..

[gorgonzola]

Originally posted by gabrielf:
MySQL with a nice GUI
A GUI to Apache so you can configure it for real not just on/off
PHP4

I don't know if these are already included but it would be nice with some firewall software and maybe some ip-routing software.

/Gabbe

Almost all of this sounds like Mac OS X Server 2.0 material. Go check out www.apple.com/macosx/server and see the list of the stuff it supports. If they've listed this on here and haven't added "like Mac OS X" it's unlikely.

This GUI front end to Unix servers is a Server kind of feature. Too bad.

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it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

[rtamesis]

The NASA Glenn Macintosh Users Group has a list of scientific apps they'd love to see on Mac OS X. See http://www.architosh.com/news/2001-0...asaglenn.phtml for a list of these apps.

Several interesting and important suggestions have been made on this thread. Allow me to comment on them in addition to providing my "wish "list".

X11 support (either rootless or full screen) would be, of course, very nice but I fear Apple would view this as a serious compromise of their user interface. It probably wouldn't be as only highly technical users would be likely to use it but still don't hold your breath.

As for the gnu toolchain (gcc, g77, gdb etc.) this is not a small task. Stan Shebs at Apple is currently working to get all the NeXT/Apple gcc patches merged back into FSF gcc proper. The process of syncing to the current version can then begin. I believe they are committed to doing this and that it will be to their advantage as their own dev tools (PB etc.) all depend on gcc and the OS itself is build with them. Additionally Apple is already aware of how important Fortran is to many scientists but currently g77 is tied to the current version of the gnu tools. It will happen, just not overnight.

Also a linux emulator (like FreeBSD's Linux binary compatibility package) was mentioned. This again is an intriguing suggestion but one that would require and enormous amount of work. The emulator in FreeBSD works by remapping system calls within the kernel as Darwin (MacOSX) uses the xnu kernel (in conjunction with Mach) not the FreeBSD kernel a direct port would seem very difficult. Furthermore Darwin (MacOSX) natively uses the Mach-O binary format (with subordinate support for the legacy CFM binary format) so support for the Linux/*BSD ELF format would have to be added first. This raises the question of what one would even use a Linux compatibility environment for. The vast majority of Linux binaries for which there is no source available (ie commercial apps) are exclusively built for the x86 architecture. This would mean the hardware would also have to be emulated on PPC in addition to the binary format and the Linux to BSD kernel mapping - in short a gargantuan task resulting in very poor performance. One could of course run binaries from the LinuxPPC and MkLinux projects without the x86 hardware emulation but all source is available for those and I think time would be better spent doing native ports.

In the short term I would personally suggest including a TeX implementation with a good front end (NeXT had excellent tools in this regard) and ghostscript with a simple cocoa based previewer app (sort of a ghostview clone as gv depends on X). Ghostscript is very important as OSX lost native handling of postscript in the transition from OPENSTEP (of course it gained native handling of PDF).

My third suggestion is sort of all encompassing. As the best way of making most freely available Unix software available to OSX, Apple (and others in the Darwin and OSX community) should be become very active with the OpenPackages project. OP seeks to unify the port and source collections of FreeBSD, BSD/OS, Darwin, OpenBSD and NetBSD. A single package distribution and update mechanism across all BSD derived OSs would be an enormous advantage to all involved - If it ever gets off the ground and is well supported by Apple, this will be a really big deal.

Sorry for the length of this note � looks like I got really carried away. Seriously though I would encourage anyone interested in seeing particular Unix functionality included in Mac OS X to email Apple. Indications are that Apple is quite surprised and excited by the amazing interest that has been shown in the BSD foundation of OSX and while they may strive to cover it all up and not mention the U word in certain consumer markets they are defiantly interested in pursuing sci/tech and enterprise markets with their new OS.

[chasnhisimac]

This is the stuff I've compiled to use with my OSX PB machine
ssh (the newest instead of whatever came with beta)
newest apache
php
lynx
mysql (please... quick and dirty GUI for starting, stoping, adding users!)
pine
ps - fix it so that it doesn't have 4 lines of code about memory allocation errors
samba
bitchx (couldn't get it to work from a remote ssh session.. only from local terminal.. include an irc you can use remotely)
one of the most important.. there is a preinstalled sendmail, but please include a popper application so you can use outlook/eudora without a hassle.

[chasnhisimac]

i almost forgot.... make nslookup work instead of trying to use my own computer as the dns server and failing

[jamesa]

I heard that SSH has been taken out. Arrrggghhhh! It should be an option that can be turned on in the control panel!

And how about PINE, so we can remotely login and check our mail? Tie that in with mail.app so the two progs use the same mailbox and you're laughing!

[Mac Write]

I want (and any web developer who works on unix web servers) would like to see install packages from Apple with a compiled Apache/php/mysql. This will be very useful the the web developer (no gui since thats for the server version ).

Apple should also have a web site with downloadable packages of all the major unix apps (apache, php, mysql etc). This will help all new and expereinced users.

Mac OS X is going to be great!!

[Gee4orce]

They must include cc and make (and probably a few other things that these need). Given those tools, almost everything else can be built with a bit of work.

Note that I don't mean give away the whole developer suite of project builder et al, although that would be nice too.

Development tools will really help X be taken seriously.

[Henriok]

How about Citrix MetaFrame? VNC is good, but MetaFrame rocks!

[gorgonzola]

PB/IB should be free. It will encourage a ridiculous amount of development for Mac OS X. Especially since it's the only Cocoa development environment -- if they want to push Cocoa, they should make it free. Everything points to the tools being free, but let's see.

I seriously doubt Apple will provide installers for *any* servers like php/mysql for Client. You can get them off a website though and they just work.

look at macosxhints.com they have the links there. works fine.

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the oddball newsletter
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it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

[Gametes]

ummm....they're free.

[Gavin]

My short list:

compiler/make etc.
lynx
bzip2
mysql
php4

It's been said before but I'll repeat it:
Apache/MySQL/PHP4 should be ready to go out of the box, no screwing around with downloading and installing.

And I need a text editor that can do colored text for HTML, PHP, Perl, SQL and Javascript all at the same time. The Project Builder editor is close, but not quite.

With the server / programming tools and the best graphics and media tools like photoshop all on one box Apple can own the web developer market.

All the things that go into a decent Linux distribution should come on a second disk as an optional install. OSX should have a UNIX system that rivals the best Linux distribution, if for no other reason than bragging rights.

[griffman]

Gavin -

Have you tried jedit for the editor? I believe it handles all those languages; I'm using it for PHP and HTML right now, and really like it.

-rob.

[clebin]

I really, really think Apple should look at NT's Administrative Tools and make a simialr feature-set based on Open Source techonologies.

GUIs for MySQL and LDAP that are as good as Microsoft's for SQL Server and ActiveDirectory.

Anything that helps Macs operate in corporate networks - and anything that helps open-source technologies take over from NT Domains and AD.

Chris

[zverushka]

Gnome for X11
Enlightenment for Gnome..
Is it possible to make 1 user as regular OS X aqua and another user as Gnome/enlightenment?