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Weyland-Yutani · May 13, 2005, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Apparently the law was broken in that the dog was supposed to have been turned over to animal control and wasn't. The vet kept the dog and then they performed their "experiment" on the dog.

Now I'm even more confused

cheers

W-Y

Cody Dawg · May 13, 2005, 04:09 PM

So am I. I'm just reporting what they told me.

All I know is that the only thing that will make this entire issue more dramatic is if someone shows up to claim that it was their pet that was dissected.

CollinG3G4 · May 13, 2005, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

How's the sheltered housewife lifestyle working out for ya?

Sir Arthur Dent · May 13, 2005, 04:44 PM

I think it gives her too much free time.

budster101 · May 13, 2005, 04:55 PM

How's the attacking nice people in your copious free time going?

Sir Arthur Dent · May 13, 2005, 04:59 PM

It doesn't get them to shut up, so I guess not very well.

Captain Obvious · 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4

How's the sheltered housewife lifestyle working out for ya?

No sh!t. Get out of the house sometime or spend more time raising your kids rather than sitting in front of the computer looking for crap to spew. Who wastes their time calling and emailing people about asinine news stories that are in no way connected to them.
Get a hobby, volunteer someplace, or go workout so you can retain what little you have of your youth so your husband doesn't trade up to a smarter, younger, more emotionally stable wife.

And high school kids capable of taking an advanced placement bio class are most likely able to drive, already picking their own college, probably old enough to enroll in the military, and on the cusp of being able to vote if they are not already there. And that’s not even bring up the choices of drugs, alcohol, diet, and sexual experience they make.
I’d say that is a hefty amount of responsibility they take over themselves and their lives. They can handle watching some mongrel get dissected and probably want to see the process since they are taking a class for individuals with a greater than average interest in the science. In fact most parents would pay for such classes to be available for their kids so they can get an educational jump on their peers at less advantaged schools.

Glad they killed the stupid thing and that it was used for a productive endeavor. Otherwise it would have been just another pointless existence of an already over populated species.

BlueSky · May 13, 2005, 05:40 PM

It was ghoulish, it was wrong, end of story.

Originally Posted by budster101

There is one word in the English language that is always pronounced incorrectly. What is it? (Nobody has yet to answer this correctly....)

Incorrectly.

Sir Arthur Dent · May 13, 2005, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bluesky

It was ghoulish, it was wrong, end of story.

I still don't see what makes this any different from when I dissected live frogs in high school.

starman · May 13, 2005, 08:13 PM

Have you thought about the possibility that this might spark some kid's interest in medicine? 30 years from now he could be one of the top surgeons in the country, saving your ass from Something Nasty.

Mike

starman · May 13, 2005, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Well, I just got off the phone from a producer from news and he said that they are now focusing on the veterinarian who allegedly dissected a live dog in front of the students.

Apparently what they did was illegal and prosecutors are considering charges right now.

Also, the AVA has been asked to make a statement about the practice of doing such a thing.

The bunch of them are in hot water.

The fact is that it shouldn't have been done on a LIVE DOG.

It's not as horrific as it first appeared, but just because the person conducting the live autopsy on the dog happened to be a veterinarian and it occurred in a vet's office does not mean that what they did is acceptable. It's not.

I hope they do file charges against the veterinarian, to be honest. It was just wrong.

No, it wasn't, and you're not helping the situation. What you're doing is fueling the fire that the news people want - the need for drama. You weren't there, you're only getting the side of the story they want you to hear or know about. Have you talked to any of the kids or their parents? I bet not.

Mike

klinux · May 13, 2005, 08:23 PM

Stop calling it a dissection when it is a vivisection. To put in term people here understand it's like calling a G5 and G4+.

Second, it was operated clearly in a clinical surrounding and in an ethical manner - which I have no objection to either.

Lastly, I too have performed vivisection myself (sterile condition, no less) in mammalian physilogy lab. It would have been great if we can use canine (or heck, sheep) but 1) cost, 2) regulation, but most importantly 3) there is not that much more incremental educational benefit, if you will, comparing a rabbit to a dog. And yes, it was a terminal surgery where the animal is put to sleep at the end in an ethical manner.

klinux · May 13, 2005, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

High Schoolers are NOT CAPABLE of being responsible for their own lives

<snip>

Believe it or not, the dog, though anaesthatised still would have felt something! and this is cruel and unusual.

Speak for yourself. In high school I, and many of my peers, was very capable of handling my own life. If it was up to the likes of you, you probably would not even teach evolution, sex education, drive, shop (auto or woodwork), because kids cannot handle themselves.

Second, what proof do you have that the dog (or any animal) properly anesthetized can feel anything? Here is what I know: anesthesiology is a science. It has been thoroughly studied and refined in the last couple hundred years. It is a difficult medical specialty that takes many many years. The moral and ethical aspects have been throughly reviewed and addressed. We continue to learn and perfect it. I have had hands-on experience that tells me know that my subjects cannot feel a thing.

For you to flippantly dismiss it is insulting, not too mention shedding a negative light on your intelligence as well.

Cadaver · May 13, 2005, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I've got the ENTIRE story, now.

I called on behalf of the media company I do work for and got the story.

This is the story:

A family found a large feral dog living in the woods (in Utah.) They captured the dog and brought it home because they wanted to see if they could tame the dog. They could not. They then brought it to their veterinarian and the veterinarian determined that because the dog could not be set free and there was no hope for rehabilitating the dog, the dog needed to be euthanized.

Apparently the substitute science teacher is a retired biologist and has been awarded many teaching awards and has been filling in for the regular biology teacher only for the week that the regular teacher was away. He has been taking the class in question, a senior advanced biology class, on field trips all week.

One of those field trips was to the veterinarian. The veterinary clinic was going to euthanize the dog and somehow the subject of watching a live dissection arose. The veterinarian invited the class to observe. Permission slips were sent home.

One girl opted not to go. Her mother also called the local news station, "Local 4 news," according to the school district spokesperson and complained. The news station jumped all over it.

Apparently the dog was 100% sedated and under anesthesia and the procedure occurred in the veterinary clinic and the students and biology teacher were only observers and not participants. The students in question were a small group of high school seniors who were in advanced biology.

The spokesperson's name is Annette and she was very nice. She said that she is going to issue an official press release later today and link it to the school website.

I still do not think they should have involved the high school students with this, but it was a set of circumstances that conspired to make this issue as large as it has become. Again, the substitute teacher was just filling in for the regular biology teacher and the entire class has been on a series of field trips during the week in question and this was one of the field trip subjects.

Anyway, y'all heard the entire story here first - the real story behind the story.

Amazing when you have all the facts, eh Cody Dawg?!
As already said, next time get the facts before making a knee jerk reactionary post about something, ok?

And as an aside, when I was a kid in Cub Scouts, we took a tour of a local veterinary hospital and were allowed to observe (with appropriate parental consent) a surgery on a dog. I think it was for a bowel obstruction or something like that (i.e., not just done for our amusement).

Especially since the school kids in this story were told ahead of time, and were required to get parental permission, and allowed to opt out, and the animal was going to be put down anyway, and the vivisection was done under full general anesthesia by a doctor of veterinary medicine, I see no harm in it at all. Personally, as a school kid, I would have found it fascinating.

As I've posted before, I'm a physician, and I think if I wasn't allowed to participate in actual dissections as a school kid (not virtual-reality simulations or pre-recorded videos), I may not have gone in to medicine.

Cadaver · May 13, 2005, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

Believe it or not, the dog, though anaesthatised still would have felt something!

Why would you say that?
I had surgery about two years ago, and I didn't feel anything.
My father had a coronary bypass about three years ago, and he didn't feel anything (so he says).
Unless the general anesthesia was administered incorrectly, and there's no one suggesting that's the case AFAIK, then where do you get off saying that? Or are you just trying to get a rise out of people because it makes for a 'sensational' story?

tavilach · 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by starman

No, it wasn't, and you're not helping the situation. What you're doing is fueling the fire that the news people want - the need for drama. You weren't there, you're only getting the side of the story they want you to hear or know about. Have you talked to any of the kids or their parents? I bet not.

Mike

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

No sh!t. Get out of the house sometime or spend more time raising your kids rather than sitting in front of the computer looking for crap to spew. Who wastes their time calling and emailing people about asinine news stories that are in no way connected to them.

I'm sure she spends a lot of time with her kids, but I agree with the latter statement.

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Amazing when you have all the facts, eh Cody Dawg?!
As already said, next time get the facts before making a knee jerk reactionary post about something, ok?

Originally Posted by Cipher13

Oh, the jealousy card. No. I'm disgusted by your reactions. You were pissed off until you found out the real story, too, you say; well, I'm afraid all the hints were there, you just don't like being reasonable. You love getting up in arms about things.

Permission slips. Student observation. What the hell was your original problem? Seriously.

Unbelievable.

Go smoke some ****ing weed.

Cody Dawg just loves to post threads that will undoubtedly split the MacNN community into two per-thread factions: "Yes, Cody, I agree with you!" or "No, Cody, you're wrong" (and, worst of all, she then criticizes anyone taking the latter approach until her hands get tired). I wish that she'd restrict her posts to the Political/War Lounge, whether or not they relate to specific politic views. The people there probably enjoy this type of debate more than the average forumgoer. I, for one, just want to partake in peaceful (and sometimes mindless, although oftentimes meaningful) discussions, whether or not I agree or disagree with certain views. I'm sure other people can relate to that, my maturity level notwithstanding.

For the record, I'm disgusted by the idea of dissecting a dog, but I'm far more disgusted by these threads that always alienate a part of the community.

I'm sure you'll have a fun time with what I've just said, Cody. By all means, tear me apart. I'm not going to argue with you.

P.S. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack, Cody. It probably comes off that way, and I apologize for that. I'm sure that you're a good person with good intentions, but I'm just asking you to try to refrain from turning this community into a raging fire of dispute.

Cody Dawg · May 13, 2005, 11:25 PM

"A raging fire of dispute?"

When - or where - have I EVER indicated I wanted everyone in the forum to argue?

Believe it or not - and I'm sure you will probably not believe it - I don't post threads to cause friction.

I posted the thread because I think that it was/is outrageous and was wrong.

The reason I come here is because I learn a lot from certain people. People like MacNStein, SimeyTheLimey, Millenium, ThinkInsane, ghporter, Athens, budster101, WDLove, and others have really significant INTELLIGENT things to say. Even Randman, whom I disagree with on about 50% of issues, I find has interesting comments to make.

So, when I post a thread it's because I want to test the moral, social, and political barometer. Maybe my opinion isn't the norm - which I find to be the case sometimes - and then I like to explore what others think and WHY.

The people who actually take the time to explain why they feel the way they do are the ones that are really quite interesting and I enjoy reading what they have to say.

I find it very interesting that people will actually come to a thread over and over and over again to say how much they despise the thread or disagree with it - yet they still keep posting! It's amazing. I have to say that THAT is probably more interesting than the subject matter of this thread, to be honest.

Cody Dawg · May 13, 2005, 11:31 PM

Here is the latest link and update about this story from their local news.

By the way, the Humane Society in Utah is one of the organizations pressing to have action taken against the veterinarian and biology teacher.

hyteckit · May 14, 2005, 01:33 AM

After disecting the dog for educational purposes, please donate the dog meat to 3rd world countries for food.

awaspaas · May 14, 2005, 02:40 AM

Are we actually debating the effectiveness of anesthesia? I thought I saw that come up.

Vivisection in general? That's nothing new. Done it myself several times.

High schoolers seeing something they're not prepared for? Permission slips... advanced course... maturity... etc.

Or is it the fact that it's a cute widdle puppy-dog? That's the whole dolphins caught in the tuna-net issue. What about the damn tuna??

Did I hear a PETA somewhere? Don't get me started on them - anybody see the Penn & Teller episode about those idiots?

Anyway, it sure looks like we're stretching on finding things to be outraged about.

goMac · May 14, 2005, 03:21 AM

After reading this whole thread I hereby declare Cody Dawg the official MacNN Drama Queen.

Not that I'm really in a position to. Such a thing would have to be ratified by a 2/3 Senate vote...

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 03:30 AM

No, if I were a TRUE drama queen I'd be yelling about the fact that my baby got chocolate all over and around the keys of my new PowerBook. I'm trying to clean it out right now...for the last hour, actually.

Ewww...

Athens · May 14, 2005, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

In other civilized countries, they just eat dogs...

-t

I have no problems with Dogs and Cats being added to the Menu

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 03:34 AM

Sure. It's a cultural thing. In France they eat horses and we sneer at that here.

Here we eat cows and in India they sneer at that.

It's a weird wild world we live in.

Athens · May 14, 2005, 03:41 AM

Yup thats why I think if we have one animal on the menu we should put all animals on the menu. I wonder if there is a different taste and texture between different breeds of dogs for example. Who knows, perhap Lassie type dogs, I think collies taste better then Huskies hehe. Would add a lot of different choices to the current meet selectoin. Yummmm

Randman · May 14, 2005, 03:47 AM

Some kid probably becomes a serial killer from this.

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 03:48 AM

The sad thing is that if a kid DID do this - on his own or with a buddy - as a result of this experience and wanting to replicate their "experiment" and got caught, they'd end up doing time or going away to juvenile or something.

11011001 · May 14, 2005, 04:12 AM

Well, thank you for giving us a fairly unbiased report of what you found out, even though you are obviously against it. The original article is very poor journalism in that sense.

klinux · May 14, 2005, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

The sad thing is that if a kid DID do this - on his own or with a buddy - as a result of this experience and wanting to replicate their "experiment" and got caught, they'd end up doing time or going away to juvenile or something.

As they should. So what's the problem?

If I see a surgery being performed on TV, does that mean I should or could do it? As I mentioned before, this is not some random event. It is performed in a clinical surrounding under controlled conditions by a professional. Stop making it sound like worse than it is.

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 05:16 AM

It's bad no matter what you say.

A veterinarian took a stray dog and cut it up in front of a class of students.

That's the beginning and the end. There aren't too many veterinarians around doing things like that. The reason that it's big news is because it's just wrong, period. If you don't understand that then you have a problem, IMO.

tavilach · May 14, 2005, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It's bad no matter what you say.

People are entitled to their opinions, and you're entitled to yours. To constantly insist that you are undoubtedly correct is just obnoxious! You can feel strongly about something (although, as I've stated, I'd rather you felt strongly in the Political/War Lounge), but your opinion is just that: An opinion. There is no absolute right and wrong in this world. Even if there was, I'm quite confident that you would not be fit to be the judge.

cc_foo · May 14, 2005, 06:36 AM

Did they film it so that they won’t have to do it again?

And (since this is a Mac forum), did they transfer it via FireWire™ to an iMac™ to edit it with iMovie™ before burning it with iDVD™?

How much RAM did the iMac have?

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 06:42 AM

tavilach: Where did I EVER say that *I* am correct? I did not - anywhere.

I am stating my opinion, that's all. Like you state yours. Because you state your opinion doesn't make me think that you are insisting that YOU and you alone are correct in your assumptions and presumptions.

Where you get off saying that I am "insisting" that I am correct is a load of crap.

Sir Arthur Dent · May 14, 2005, 07:28 AM

I think it was the "no matter what you say" part that seems to convey that you think the immorality of the story is fact rather than opinion. Maybe I'm not mature enough to understand how that works, though. I mean, I don't even have honor roll kids to brag about!

SimpleLife · May 14, 2005, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

We dissected earthworms when I was in school and that also disgusted me.

I consider a dog a more sentient being than a worm - or a frog. Typically, dogs are beloved family members.

I wouldn't want to dissect a live frog either. I think that's wrong also.

I'm sure that was a horribly painful experience for that poor dog. I feel so sorry for it.

OK.

So you have it that animals should not be subjected to live dissection?

Would feel sorry for animals used to test your beauty products? Are you sure that anything you buy has not been tested on animals first?

SimpleLife · May 14, 2005, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

I personally am not mad about it, I just think its wrong because we have other means to teach this stuff. 15 years ago I would have agreed with it for education, today there is just no reason for it. But there are much worst things out there like cosmetic products being tested on Animals, and lab experiments that do hurt animals. This is just another thing to me that I think is stupid but not worth working myself over.

A few years back, I had a class in Human anatomy. There were corpses everywhere and we were invited to touch and get a feel for the human body (in a Medical School). So I saw intestines, eyes, skinless bodies and various body parts on display. The atmosphere was one of quiet respect, and the medical students were great and very helpful in explaining how organs were related.

Never would a book of Human anatomy could have provided me with the awe, and the humility and the understanding I now have for life. Looking at an uterus in a book is one thing. Holding one in the palm of your hand gives you a better idea of your place in the world.

I am grateful for that experience.

What I have a problem with dissection classes is the lack of respect for these animals who are left for our use to understand get. I am not certain teachers make that point often or strong enough. Kids being witnesses of a dissection (or doing it) should be also prepared of what it means and involves before being given the frog to open.

SimpleLife · May 14, 2005, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Where you get off saying that I am "insisting" that I am correct is a load of crap.

Well, "it's bad no matter what you say".

Eug Wanker · May 14, 2005, 08:23 AM

Athens · May 14, 2005, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

A few years back, I had a class in Human anatomy. There were corpses everywhere and we were invited to touch and get a feel for the human body (in a Medical School). So I saw intestines, eyes, skinless bodies and various body parts on display. The atmosphere was one of quiet respect, and the medical students were great and very helpful in explaining how organs were related.

Never would a book of Human anatomy could have provided me with the awe, and the humility and the understanding I now have for life. Looking at an uterus in a book is one thing. Holding one in the palm of your hand gives you a better idea of your place in the world.

I am grateful for that experience.

What I have a problem with dissection classes is the lack of respect for these animals who are left for our use to understand get. I am not certain teachers make that point often or strong enough. Kids being witnesses of a dissection (or doing it) should be also prepared of what it means and involves before being given the frog to open.

Would you have a problem if the dog was given pain killers, skull cracked open while it was alive and the teacher started poking parts of the brain to demonstrate what ever to them while the dog is alive?

My issue isnt with using animals for lessions, for high school my issue is using a live animal to demonstrate with. Because the students only watched, they didnt have a dog each they could have learned the same thing from a TV. Save the dog per student part for secondary learning.

SimpleLife · May 14, 2005, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

Would you have a problem if the dog was given pain killers, skull cracked open while it was alive and the teacher started poking parts of the brain to demonstrate what ever to them while the dog is alive?

We do that with cats in experimentations over brain organization. Interventions on the brain requires usually only local anesthesia because the brain does not have sensorial cells. Interventions on humans with a needle to stimulate the brain is also done the same way. It is an important element in teaching on the functionning of the brain.

Whether this should be done in High School is another question I will not venture responding to. On the other hand, kids living on the farm know more about anatomy and have a better perspective than urban kids in general. I guess there is an issue of perspective regarding what is acceptable or not in a teaching setting.

I understand that these images are repulsive, because we are not used to that (and I hope no one will ever be!) but this type of process is necessary at other levels of the education system.

My issue isnt with using animals for lessions, for high school my issue is using a live animal to demonstrate with. Because the students only watched, they didnt have a dog each they could have learned the same thing from a TV. Save the dog per student part for secondary learning.

Somehow, I doubt Schools will start to hunt dogs to do demonstrations of that sort every year for every bio classes. I do agree on the use of recorded documentation as making more sense than participating to an hecatomb. Yet, the opportunity presented there is priceless; as I wrote earlier, it all comes down to the way this is introduced, processed, and interpreted afterwards.

budster101 · May 14, 2005, 10:17 AM

SimpleLife: Well said.

Stradlater · May 14, 2005, 01:49 PM

I love dogs, I lived with many while growing up. On that note...

I don't see what the fuss is.

1. CD, high school is hardly "kids" being subjected to something when they had to receive prior permission. If this is an AP-level Bio class, it even makes more sense.
2. The "poor dog" is sedated for the procedure, so it doesn't feel anything.
3. Dogs are bred specifically for experimentation throughout the U.S., so if using a "stray dog" is an issue here (and I find no evidence in this article that it WAS a "stray") then the biggest complaint I can see is not using a dog that was bred for this purpose (on the flip side, if the stray is picked up and put in the pound, odds are that it'll be euthanized anyway).
(I think most of these things have been said; I just wanted to reiterate.)

When I was in high school, I was given the opportunity to work in a prestigious lab for experience. This involved seeing a full-grown pig's beating heart exposed after sedation and cutting him open. Pigs are just as "sentient" as dogs, and are just as intelligent as most of our furrier friends, if not more intelligent. It was a good learning experience for me, and it provided greater results for humans and heart failure.

Life is a beautiful thing, sure. Understanding life can be even more beautiful. High schoolers are going to get much more out of this event than they ever would have gotten out of a textbook, TV, or computer version.

The Godfather · May 14, 2005, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

But as I understand it the dog was euthanized. Meaning it was put to sleep. The animal doesn't die instantly, but death is inevitable and it doesn't feel any pain.

Yes the dog was "alive" when it was opened but it felt no pain and would never wake again. Cut or not. I'm a bit unsure why this is considered inhumane..

Were the dog strapped down and cut open while awake, now that is inhumane.

The reason for my confusion here is that this is not something out of the ordinary. This is frequently practiced on animals in physiology studies and education.

cheers

W-Y

It is about RESPECT FOR LIVING THINGS. Sedated or not, the dog was alive and his intestines aren't things to be played with. Exceptions are made for education of students that can take advantage of this, but it is unacceptable for high school advanced biology. They should have done it with a dead animal, which is 100% fair play for medical education.

I mean, at what level in medical/veterinary school education are students allowed to cut open dead animals? This biology teacher sneakily granted these privileges to HS [advanced] biology students.

Regardless of everything said before: questionable morality + illegality = wrong.

The Godfather · May 14, 2005, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Have you thought about the possibility that this might spark some kid's interest in medicine? 30 years from now he could be one of the top surgeons in the country, saving your ass from Something Nasty.

Mike

Were the Nazis right when they did cruel medical experiments on living people? They claimed it was for the advancement of medicine.

The Godfather · May 14, 2005, 10:17 PM

Could you clarify please? The dog was brought to the vet to be healed (from bowel obstruction) or to be euthanized?

DeathToWindows · May 14, 2005, 10:34 PM

Let's see... I've dissected everything from an earthworm to a fetal pig and a dogfish shark... assuming the sedation was to the point of knocking out the neural functions, there shouldn't be a problem - generally, organs are still "active" in some sense after death

Zimphire · May 14, 2005, 10:39 PM

Hey Budster

The Godfather · May 14, 2005, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by cc_foo

Did they film it so that they won’t have to do it again?

And (since this is a Mac forum), did they transfer it via FireWire™ to an iMac™ to edit it with iMovie™ before burning it with iDVD™?

How much RAM did the iMac have?

The dog was probably snapped with a camera-cellphone and emailed with subject: "Hey look at this mutilated dog"

Cadaver · May 15, 2005, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

Could you clarify please? The dog was brought to the vet to be healed (from bowel obstruction) or to be euthanized?

Referring to my post??

To be healed (which it was). All we did was get to stand in the back for a little while and watch, a few at a time getting a closer look.

It was all 100% legit. And fascinating, I might add. And sanctioned by the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) and the vet clinic which was part of the Michigan State University veterinary medicine program. Well, sanctioned by the BSA back in 1979 or '80 - don't know if it would still fly these days seeing as how people (*cough*Cody Dawg*cough*) tend to react.

The Godfather · May 15, 2005, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Referring to my post??

To be healed (which it was). All we did was get to stand in the back for a little while and watch, a few at a time getting a closer look.

It was all 100% legit. And fascinating, I might add. And sanctioned by the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) and the vet clinic which was part of the Michigan State University veterinary medicine program. Well, sanctioned by the BSA back in 1979 or '80 - don't know if it would still fly these days seeing as how people (*cough*Cody Dawg*cough*) tend to react.

Yes. I was referring to your post. I admit I didn't read a key phrase, and I should have understood what you said.

However, you mentioned that you PARTICIPATED in a DISSECTION in high school. The AP-biology class in this story OBSERVED a VIVISECTION. What you did in highschool had more educational value, more humanity, more legality, the surgery was a necessary procedure, and the dog was not sacrificed. It is very different from what the bio teacher did.

Cutting up a dog in the name of science can be either right or wrong. It depends on the details: healing surgery vs. vivisection vs. dissection, AP-biology vs. medical school, death-row vs. stray, participation vs. observation, necessary death vs. unnecessary death, and finally legal vs. illegal.