[foo2]

Originally Posted by discotronic

What makes him a troll is other comments he has made.

I'm not going to say that the price of Apple's hardware is priced low because it isn't. I use both a PC and a Mac. Apple's hardware is priced for the most part top dollar. I was in the market for a monitor recently. I looked at the 20" ACD but I just couldn't see paying the price. I found some coupons for the Dell 2005FPW 20" monitor. It is just as good, IMO, as the Apple 20". I paid $430 total for it plus I have a 3 year warranty.

I have found Apple's hardware to be top notch for the most part. Some people's experience will be different than others. Overall, their support for their hardware makes them one of the best in the business.

Like you have already stated though. If it isn't a Mac it won't run OSX (emulators excluded)

Agreed. Dell hardware has fantastic pricing! I've got a Dell 20" LCD that I bought about a year and a half ago for $750, which at the time was an amazing price.

[ThePhoenix]

Originally Posted by foo2

OK - I'm curious - how's that? And please, let's not ignore Apple's Mac Mini's woefully bad USB2 speeds compared to the PC's USB2.

Let me clarify this as best I am allowed. I work for a company the deals with supporting services that require PCMCIA cards. Recently we have had several new models released from multiple manufacturers. I work at the top level of support. So the number of cases I see are highly filtered out from common type problems. 16 complaints out of the first 150 that reached my department, were Dell machines that would freeze upon inserting the card or Blue Screen of Death upon insertion. Out of the 150 complaints only 22 ended up being hardware compatibility issues. The reset either the account wasn't set up right or the driver wasn't installed properly or the device was getting slower than advertised speeds. After further investigation between the device manufacturers and Dell, Dell admitted that some of the parts they used in USB Controller chips were never certified to meet spec, and as proved failed to do so. The fix to get the cards working were to call a special dell phone number to get the laptop replaced. You compare this to the slow speeds of USB2 on the MacMini, I would rather a slow machine than a dead one.

Originally Posted by foo2

That's true. Say, priced an Apple power supply lately? Dell's PSs are cheap in comparison. Be thankful.

I expect Apple to use non standard parts, they are known to be different off the bat and is therefoe expected. People buying PCs expect standard PC parts in them. (To comment on a later note made, I have not had any experiences where other vendors used non standard parts, but I haven't been in the business of opening up other people's machines for aobut a year, so the whole industry may have gone that way)

Originally Posted by foo2

Not too unusual for consumer level support. The advantage is you don't need to train the people.

This is a valid troubleshooting step, but at least walk the customer through the porcess, don't tell them got to do it on their own and drop them

Originally Posted by foo2

How much?

You know that MS charges $245 per incident for professional level support (home support is $35 per incident - dirt cheap on both counts)? They're not making $$$ on support. Nobody does.

The Only Dell Support I have had any luck with is there one that is the same price as the machine essentially. The $1600 Gold Server package. Granted Apple has its high cost server support packages as well. But at least Apple's desktop support for standard users is tolerable at worst helpful generally.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by ThePhoenix

Let me clarify this as best I am allowed. I work for a company the deals with supporting services that require PCMCIA cards. Recently we have had several new models released from multiple manufacturers. I work at the top level of support. So the number of cases I see are highly filtered out from common type problems. 16 complaints out of the first 150 that reached my department, were Dell machines that would freeze upon inserting the card or Blue Screen of Death upon insertion. Out of the 150 complaints only 22 ended up being hardware compatibility issues. The reset either the account wasn't set up right or the driver wasn't installed properly or the device was getting slower than advertised speeds. After further investigation between the device manufacturers and Dell, Dell admitted that some of the parts they used in USB Controller chips were never certified to meet spec, and as proved failed to do so. The fix to get the cards working were to call a special dell phone number to get the laptop replaced. You compare this to the slow speeds of USB2 on the MacMini, I would rather a slow machine than a dead one.

Given that Dell doesn't write the drivers for their own hardware, I have to wonder why any of this is Dell's fault. They use Intel motherboards (at least in desktops), Intel drivers, and Intel USB devices. I'd like to see an engineering report of the 6000's problems - I'm interested now.

If a card causes a machine to bluescreen when it's placed into the PCMCIA device, a simple memory dump analysis will tell you the offending driver - and this should be an issue on 100% of the computers using that hardware, not just Dell. Once you have the minidump.dmp file it should only take seconds to point the finger at where the blame lies. If Dell really did have a problem with the 6000, what is the offending driver? I'd really like to know so I can look more closely at the driver. Please PM me and I'll give you the appropriate info so you can send the memory.dmp or cwindows\minidumps\*.dmp files to me so I can see what's going on.

Yes, I'm curious!

No, I don't work for Dell. Or anyone else in the IT industry. I'm just curious, and I really doubt this issue has much to do with Dell at all. Do other Quanta machines have the same problem?

I expect Apple to use non standard parts, they are known to be different off the bat and is therefoe expected. People buying PCs expect standard PC parts in them. (To comment on a later note made, I have not had any experiences where other vendors used non standard parts, but I haven't been in the business of opening up other people's machines for aobut a year, so the whole industry may have gone that way)

Why do people buying PCs expect standard PC parts?
Why is that a requirement, but it isn't a requirement for Macs? (The answer is obvious but rhetorical)
Why didn't the people that ordered the PCs for the company decide if they wanted non-standard parts (and then order from Dell) or if they wanted standard parts (and then order from someone else)?
Did someone force them to buy from Dell?

Honestly, this defies all logic. If standard parts are a company purchasing criteria, then by all means, buy machines with standard parts. But in corporate America today very few people ever upgrade their machines (new motherboard? Never.) so it isn't as if this is a significant issue for most folks. They buy a 3 year lease and a 3 year warranty from Dell and get rid of the machines after the 3 years are up.

You can't blame Dell because your company decided to use them. They chose them for a reason - if it's an issue, find out what that reason was and fix the problem at that level; there's nothing inherently bad with Dell.... or nonstandard parts if you realize the implications of what you've bought. (With a Dell, you'll pay 50% less money, and there's a tiny chance that someday you might need to fix the motherboard or power supply out of warranty, in which case you'll probably either toss the machine altogether (new ones, newest technology P4/2.8s w/1 year warranty, WITH 19" LCD monitors, are $529 these days) or else spend an extra $30-$50 in repair parts.

Big deal.

[jc20]

Originally Posted by budster101

You get'em.

Maybe they should make a mini-long-commerical-spoof on Dell?
Call it:

"A nightmare on Dell Street"?

Try this:
http://illwillpress.com/tech.html

[JoshKurtz]

I've had two Dell Inspiron laptops and had a couple problems, namely weight (heavy as a sack of bricks) and heat (the processor fan vent is underneath so you can't place the laptop on any other surface than a desk or table or, like I did, a tv dinner tray).
My biggest gripe about Dell's support staff is their lack of ability to speak the English language. Most of the time I would have to call back once or twice to get someone who could communicate well enough to help me.
As soon as my last Dell went out of warranty I traded it for an iBook.
I haven't had to deal with Apple's support staff yet so I can't comment on them.

[eobiont]

Where I works we have been Dell customers for about 6 years and have about 8500 dell computers. We replace on average 3 parts per day(15 a week, 780 per year) that is nearly a 10% per year failure rate, which I think is pretty high. No this includes mice that get mucked up and keyboards too, but most of the repairs are bad power supplies, and more recently we have been having problems with heat.

In the last 6 years we have had two occasions where we had to do full motherboard replacements on two models, the Optiplex GX200 had a video ghosting problem that require mobo swaps, and now with the new GX280 Small form factor there is a capacitor that is blowing due to heat troubles. This will also require a swap out of the mobo. Swapping out the motherboard adds significant cost to the original purchase parts. Lost time of our technicians and more importantly lost time to our users.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by eobiont

Where I works we have been Dell customers for about 6 years and have about 8500 dell computers. We replace on average 3 parts per day(15 a week, 780 per year) that is nearly a 10% per year failure rate, which I think is pretty high.

That's actually a 10% INCIDENCE rate. A 10% replacement rate would be replacing 850 computers every year.

Originally Posted by eobiont

In the last 6 years we have had two occasions where we had to do full motherboard replacements on two models...<snip>...Lost time of our technicians and more importantly lost time to our users.

Those were some major screw ups, and as I recall it took Dell a long time to figure them out. What they SHOULD have done was provide replacement boards AND compensated you for your time in replacing them. But on the other hand, the only thing Apple did when they finally admitted that the original AirPort Base Station had a problem was replace them (with refurb units) after you sent in yoru broken unit. Not much better service there.

[driven]

Originally Posted by jc20

Try this:
http://illwillpress.com/tech.html

That's friggin' hillarious!!!

[SmileyDude]

Originally Posted by foo2

That's true. Say, priced an Apple power supply lately? Dell's PSs are cheap in comparison. Be thankful.

Well, in Apple's defense, they aren't using ATX boards with ATX power connectors. Dell does use ATX boards with ATX connectors -- but they use a different pinout, which means that for the average user, they have to buy from Dell. It's one thing to have a special connector -- it's another thing to use the same exact connector but in a different pinout. That's downright dirty, in my opinion.

Just so that I'm not accused of spitting out unsubstantiated accusations at Dell, check out
http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/dellconverter.html for an example of this.

[just a poster]

Fun experiment: purchase two identical DELLs and set them up side by side.

In the process of installing software from the same media I guarantee between the freezes, hiccups and outright crashes you will not have the same experience twice.

Will the machines work? Sure - but you can't trust them for anything mission-critical.

[klinux]

Originally Posted by ThePhoenix

Dell also is known within the hardware manufacturing and support industry for using parts that do not get certified approval or meet the basic specs to save on cost. For example many of the Dell Inspiron 6000s use USB Controllers that fail to meet the USB spec.

Additionally Dell is known to make their own proprietary parts taht don't meet specs. At my last job we had 8 identical Dells.

Flamebait.

First all, stop being vague and show some evidence. For examples, the parts that do not get certified approval, which are the parts and what certification did they not pass? If you flip over a Dell laptop, power adaptor, etc you will find it ugly as hell because it is printed with certifications all over the world. This go with the strategy of saving cost by making it work in as many place as possible.

Second, as you have mentioned it is well know that Dell uses proprietary parts like its own PSU or MB. Why is it surprising to you to find out tha it does not use the standard PSU size?

To call it not meeting "spec" (whose spec?) is misleading. Wheny ou buy Dell (for business), you should have know it that you are not buying it as assembled standard off-the-shelf parts, you are buying Dell the package. If you did not, let this be a lesson. If you want standard off-of-the-shelf parts you shuld have gone with your local whitebox. For your information, this is moe common than you think. I know Sony also used proprietary parts for its VAIO lines too. Apple too. Yawn.

And eight Dells? Eight? Please, that is anectodal number - that is like saying i have a Toyota Camry and it failed therefore Toyota Camry is unreliable. We have a few hundred just at one location along. Some lines have switched to HP but Dell turned out to be better of the two.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by just a poster

Fun experiment: purchase two identical DELLs and set them up side by side.

In the process of installing software from the same media I guarantee between the freezes, hiccups and outright crashes you will not have the same experience twice.

Will the machines work? Sure - but you can't trust them for anything mission-critical.

That's blatently wrong. The IT techs at companies worldwide use the same (per-company) image for Dells and they work fine. This unsubstantiated nonsense is silly.

[elvis2000]

Originally Posted by discotronic

I can't speak of Dell's support because fortunately I have never had to deal with them but Apple's can't be beat in my opinion.

FWIW, I had a bum network card in my Dell and the guys were *at my house* the next day with the replacement. Hmmmmm.

[DrBoar]

I have owned or used at work about 10 macs, all have worked well. (But I do hate the dual 1.25 that makes a lot of noise despite PSU replacement, also my G4/400 sawtooth is quite loud)


Apple support were terrible with the Sawtooth, I told them that the problem was the 120 mm fan and how I had demonstrated that finding. They then promptly replaced the PSU and returned the computer as loud as before A Dell 3GHz CPU running F@H 24/7 is so quite that I have to lean very close to even hear the whoosing of the fans. The G4 on the other hand fills the whole room with a irritating drone as soon as it on

At work two of two iMac G4 had to be replaced within weeks of arrival. We have about 50 Dells and most of them are up and running when they are replaced after 5-7 years. The current crop range from 800 MHz PIII to 120 MHz Pentiums, still up and running. The Dell cases has also been easy to get into, HP and Compaq on the other hand have given me severe trouble just to replace a hard disk and have had the memory slots as well placed as in the Powermac 8200

[ghporter]

I believe (though it's not going to be easy to prove) that if you get a like number of Dell and Apple users together with similar experience and skill levels, they will have more in common than they will have differences. And that will be true of their support requirements as well, though their experiences will obviously differ because of the different structures of the two companies.

[The Godfather]

My wife's laptop power supply started to fall apart (wires getting unattached from the brick). She called Dell, waited on the phone for like 20 minutes. The guy who answered understood the problem quickly and shipped a new power supply that day.

[t6hawk]

Originally Posted by ThePhoenix

Dell's support is aka New Delli. Its all outsourced to India.

Outsourced to India? Nope. Dell is building a multimillion $ call center in Edmonton Canada. They are presntly occupying 5 floors of a tower in the downtown area. That last I heard is now their primary call center. I could be wrong tho.

This is the position description requirements for a tech support agent (from Dell's site):
- Thorough knowledge of PC operating systems, applications, and technologies.
- Ability to analyze and solve technical problems by effectively communicating with customers.
- Excellent telephone, verbal, and written communication skills.
- Ability to deal professionally with irate customers.
- Must be flexible to work shiftwork.
- High school diploma.

Irate customers huh? They must know their service sucks if they have THAT in the requirements for the job.

[jcadam]

Dell used to make good stuff. I remember owning a DELL 486SX. It was big, solid, and heavy, even with a big, honkin 80 MB hard drive. It even included an extra CPU socket so you could plug in an Intel Overdrive CPU upgrade (which I did), and some extra VRAM sockets so you could upgrade the frame buffer to a full 1MB. It still worked perfectly (even with all the card slots full of upgrades, running OSs from DOS/Windows 3.1, Windows 95, and Linux) when it was retired to a shelf in the garage after several years of usage. DELL even pimped its customer support like it was something to be proud of back in those days. You could call them and get an actual American on the phone in under 5 minutes.

I started my first real job after college and was given a shiny new black DELL to use at my desk. It cost $800. By this point in history, Dell had discovered the secret of 'teh suck' -- It was a complete piece of garbage, though the specs looked fine on paper. I think there is a pretty clear cut dividing line in quality between the older Dells that came in the big beige cases, and the new ones that come in the compact black cases.

Oh, and the day Apple outsources its customer support to India is the day AppleCare becomes worthless.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by t6hawk

Outsourced to India? Nope. Dell is building a multimillion $ call center in Edmonton Canada. They are presntly occupying 5 floors of a tower in the downtown area. That last I heard is now their primary call center. I could be wrong tho.

This is the position description requirements for a tech support agent (from Dell's site):
- Thorough knowledge of PC operating systems, applications, and technologies.
- Ability to analyze and solve technical problems by effectively communicating with customers.
- Excellent telephone, verbal, and written communication skills.
- Ability to deal professionally with irate customers.
- Must be flexible to work shiftwork.
- High school diploma.

Irate customers huh? They must know their service sucks if they have THAT in the requirements for the job.

No, they just realize that some people are both clueless and will blame Dell for every single little problem that influences them or their computers. Believe it or not, when people call into any computer company, they don't tend to be happy.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by jcadam

Dell used to make good stuff. I remember owning a DELL 486SX. It was big, solid, and heavy, even with a big, honkin 80 MB hard drive. It even included an extra CPU socket so you could plug in an Intel Overdrive CPU upgrade (which I did), and some extra VRAM sockets so you could upgrade the frame buffer to a full 1MB. It still worked perfectly (even with all the card slots full of upgrades, running OSs from DOS/Windows 3.1, Windows 95, and Linux) when it was retired to a shelf in the garage after several years of usage. DELL even pimped its customer support like it was something to be proud of back in those days. You could call them and get an actual American on the phone in under 5 minutes.

I started my first real job after college and was given a new DELL to use at my desk. It cost $800. It was a complete piece of garbage, though the specs looked fine on paper. I think there is a pretty clear cut dividing line in quality between the older Dells that came in the big beige cases, and the new ones that come in the compact black cases.

Oh, and the day Apple outsources its customer support to India is the day AppleCare becomes worthless.

While I too strongly prefer that jobs remain in America, the build quality of Dells hasn't really changed - it's still among the best in the industry. Your new Dell may have been garbage - I don't know - but Dell has always offered a considerable span of varying speed levels, and so you can buy a new computer at anywhere from $300 to $800 nowadays with a different form factor, motherboard, and AGP/PCI-Express/No graphics port, and much more. If your company bought something you didn't like, you should talk to them about it - again, the type of computer your company buys isn't Dell's fault - your company (someone) decided that would be the best computer for your job requirements.

BTW, how was it garbage?

[itguy05]

You people defending Dell are HILARIOUS. Never met a Dell that was worth the cardboard box it came in. And I've been in IT for many ( more than 10) years and only recently got into Macs.

Let's discuss a couple Dell fallacies:
1)Dell is cheap- Not really. They advertise good deals but when you realize that the machines are low end De-celerons, shared graphics, small HD, etc. you realize that a POS it is. And that's if you can order that machine. They are not displayed on the website or are not available. Dell is under investigation by many states for this bait and switch. For every cheap Dell, you can find 50-100 vendors that have similar, better quality systems for the same or cheaper. Dell often comes in on the expensive side of things when you compare similar PC systems. Dell thrives on the low end bottom feeders, so that's why they seem cheap.

2)Dell has huge market share - Not really. They only have ~30% of the PC market. Sounds huge until you realize most ofthe PC market doesn's buy Dell. And most of those are to companies who got suckered into buying Dell.

3)Dell has good build quality - If you think Dell is good, I'd hate to see what you think bad is. Dell's business model is a lot like Wal-Mart. Buy the cheapest components you can find and sell it cheap. Problem is you get just that - a cheap piece of junk. No matter how you cut it. A bunch of parts that are cheap and barely designed to work together. If there is a way to cut a corner, Dell will cut that corner. The build quality is and always has been poor. Poorly fitting cases, cheap, low spec power supplies and other stuff makes up a Dell.

Dell is one of the worst computer companies in PC land. The only thing that they have going for them is they duped America into thinking they are good compauters. Blame that on bombarding people with ads every day about their stuff. But they are far from the best. The worst, actually.

[klinux]

Originally Posted by t6hawk

Irate customers huh? They must know their service sucks if they have THAT in the requirements for the job.

Yeah, like your company only has happy customers calling. Apparently between honesty and bullsh!t you prefer the latter.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by itguy05

You people defending Dell are HILARIOUS. Never met a Dell that was worth the cardboard box it came in. And I've been in IT for many ( more than 10) years and only recently got into Macs.

Why do people feel they constantly must post their 'credentials'? Support your opinions; don't worry about credentials.

Let's discuss a couple Dell fallacies:
1)Dell is cheap- Not really. They advertise good deals but when you realize that the machines are low end De-celerons, shared graphics, small HD, etc. you realize that a POS it is. And that's if you can order that machine. They are not displayed on the website or are not available. Dell is under investigation by many states for this bait and switch. For every cheap Dell, you can find 50-100 vendors that have similar, better quality systems for the same or cheaper. Dell often comes in on the expensive side of things when you compare similar PC systems. Dell thrives on the low end bottom feeders, so that's why they seem cheap.

False. Dell currently (www.gotapex.com) offers the Dimension 4700 with PCE-Express graphics port, integrated graphics, AND 19" LCD monitor, shipped and delivered, for $529. It's a P4/2.8 with hyperthreading and uses one of Intel's premium chipsets. Included sound, keyboard, mouse, etc. - all the normal stuff. No Celerons here. Displayed on the website constantly, and clearly marked and advertised. Please show vendors using the 915 chipset with 19" LCD for less, shipped and delivered. I don't think you can. That's a sale price. And there are plenty of similar sales if you can wait a week or so until ordering. Dell just had $750 off all of their laptops for the first 15000 online purchases...it was gone in just hours.

2)Dell has huge market share - Not really. They only have ~30% of the PC market. Sounds huge until you realize most ofthe PC market doesn's buy Dell. And most of those are to companies who got suckered into buying Dell.

LOL. 30% market share is massive. It's *incredible*. It's 10-15x larger than Apple. You don't think that's huge? One out of every three PCs sold is a Dell - you don't think that's incredible?

3)Dell has good build quality - If you think Dell is good, I'd hate to see what you think bad is. Dell's business model is a lot like Wal-Mart. Buy the cheapest components you can find and sell it cheap. Problem is you get just that - a cheap piece of junk. No matter how you cut it. A bunch of parts that are cheap and barely designed to work together. If there is a way to cut a corner, Dell will cut that corner. The build quality is and always has been poor. Poorly fitting cases, cheap, low spec power supplies and other stuff makes up a Dell.

Dell is one of the worst computer companies in PC land. The only thing that they have going for them is they duped America into thinking they are good compauters. Blame that on bombarding people with ads every day about their stuff. But they are far from the best. The worst, actually.

Please detail how. All of the reviews, including Consumer Reports, suggest they're right up there with Apple near the top.

[klinux]

Originally Posted by itguy05

You people defending Dell are HILARIOUS. Never met a Dell that was worth the cardboard box it came in. And I've been in IT for many ( more than 10) years and only recently got into Macs.

Let's discuss a couple Dell fallacies:
1)[b]Dell is cheap

2)[b]Dell has huge market share

3)[b]Dell has good build quality

Dell is one of the worst computer companies in PC land. The only thing that they have going for them is they duped America into thinking they are good compauters. Blame that on bombarding people with ads every day about their stuff. But they are far from the best. The worst, actually.

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind against Dell. Were you beat up by Michael Dell as a kid? Why the anger?

In anycase, I have also been in IT for 10+ years and switched to Mac from OS X 10.1.

I am not even going to debate the three fallacies you have mentioned. Had you mentioned something that could be debatable i.e. Dell diverging from its core compentency by entering consumer electronics market - smart or bad move? That is something to discuss. But you managed to turn three things that are true factual with Dell into so-called an dpoorly fallacies is a pure joke.

I hope you do not work at my company. I will have you replaced ASAP.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by discotronic

I know exactly what I said. How many Macs have you owned? I have owned a Mac since the early 90's. I am usually on an (at most) 2 year upgrade cycle. The only system I have had a real problem with in all those years has been the iMac G5. After going through the regular repairs that didn't solve the issue, Apple replaced the system. Am I happy I bought a lemon? No. Did Apple step up to the plate and make it right? Yes.

A video card problem is a minor issue. If a bad video card makes a PowerMac a crap product you should just stop using computers right now.

Also, I still think you are a troll. I remember you from a couple months back. You are only "interested in OSX and not Apple hardware". Go home to MS troll.

Troll? hardly. What if I am only interested in OSX and not Apple hardware? Big Deal. Sorry, Im not going anywhere, either

[just a poster]

Originally Posted by foo2

That's blatently wrong. The IT techs at companies worldwide use the same (per-company) image for Dells and they work fine. This unsubstantiated nonsense is silly.

foo2,

It's not the image IT techs at the customer site use that are the issue. DELL seems to deliver computers with inconsistent images out-the-box.

I've set up literally hundreds of DELLs and I invite you to perform the experiment I propose: purchase two identical hardware products from DELL and set them up side by side, simultaneously, with your software.

[just a poster]

There is a customer service feature that DELL does better than anybody else. If I enter the service number (aka serial number) of the computer at their support site, DELL returns a list of drivers for all devices originally packaged in that system.

I can't count the number of times that has been a godsend as I was reinstalling Windows on a failed DELL box and didn't bother keeping or misplaced my original CDs from DELL.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by just a poster

foo2,

It's not the image IT techs at the customer site use that are the issue. DELL seems to deliver computers with inconsistent images out-the-box.

I've set up literally hundreds of DELLs and I invite you to perform the experiment I propose: purchase two identical hardware products from DELL and set them up side by side, simultaneously, with your software.

You don't put your corporation's image on them? You leave them as-shipped? How odd. Anyway, I know exactly how Dell images their machines (Sysprep, essentially) and yes, a given type will be exactly the same - you can script the install once you get it to make it compliant with your corporate standards fairly easily.

Or you can solve all of these problems by doing what everyone else does and simply have your own imaging process, so that you and only you can control what is put onto the machines.

Anyway, what issues, *exactly*, do you experience, and what makes you believe it isn't simply a problem with the IT techs?

[just a poster]

Originally Posted by foo2

You don't put your corporation's image on them? You leave them as-shipped? How odd. Or you can solve all of these problems by doing what everyone else does and simply have your own imaging process, so that you and only you can control what is put onto the machines.

In most environments (ie, where computers are purchased in onesies and twosies), this is the case. It is much too difficult to maintain a consistent Windows image with the number of patches coming out and the differences in hardware.

Originally Posted by foo2

Anyway, what issues, *exactly*, do you experience, and what makes you believe it isn't simply a problem with the IT techs?

Just glitches and the like. The more obvious being windows not redrawing completely, redrawing one way on one machine and another on the second, icons and text in different sizes, stuttering (5-10 second hangs) at different parts of the startup process. Sometimes the machine goes through the process of adding new hardware, sometimes not (all this without adding any peripherals). One computer will need 30 critical updates from windowsupdate.com, one will need a couple fewer or more.

These type of issues are common upon first startup to the desktop in modern DELLs preloaded with Windows - there's not much an IT tech can screw up at that time.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by just a poster

In most environments (ie, where computers are purchased in onesies and twosies), this is the case. It is much too difficult to maintain a consistent Windows image with the number of patches coming out and the differences in hardware.

Study up on RIS. It's very easy to have exactly one image for all desktops worldwide, regardless of hardware, HAL, and patches. Sysprep is another method of doing essentially the same thing. These solutions have been available since Windows 2000 shipped.

Just glitches and the like. The more obvious being windows not redrawing completely, redrawing one way on one machine and another on the second, icons and text in different sizes, stuttering (5-10 second hangs) at different parts of the startup process. Sometimes the machine goes through the process of adding new hardware, sometimes not (all this without adding any peripherals). One computer will need 30 critical updates from windowsupdate.com, one will need a couple fewer or more.

These type of issues are common upon first startup to the desktop in modern DELLs preloaded with Windows - there's not much an IT tech can screw up at that time.

Unfortunately, that's exctly how it looks here - it looks like your entire IT management strategy is a bit messed up. For one thing, you should have an automated method to distribute patches - manually going to Windowsupdate.microsoft.com in a corporate environment is silly. Check out SMS or WSUS or SUS.

For the other issues, try to find out why it's happening, and then eliminate that problem. It can be done - it just requires some thought and troubleshooting.

[theolein]

I used to manage a small company's IT and we bought Dell's in 2002, mainly for price reasons (I initially wanted IBM) and we had a lot of hardware problems with the machines. No fewer than 3 of the 20 machines were DOA. After the outsourced tech repair replaced various hardware, in one case the entire insides of the machine (cpu, ram, motherboard, powersupply), two of those machines would still intermittently refuse to recognise the DVD drives. Note that the BIOS was not seeing the drives, so it was nothing to do with Windows.

The total cost in lost time was astronomical.

This might be an exception, and Dell might be quite good, but, judging from the large amount of complaints about Dell and its tech support, I suspect that the quality is simply not that good, on average.

I also suspect that it has a lot to do with Dell's never ending quest to cut prices. Something has to give eventually when the margins become ever smaller and price pressure higher, and that something is more often than not quality.

There are, I think, good reasons why IBM's eqiupment has always been more pricey than Dell's. Sadly, the market itself does not care, and cheaper almost always wins. Now that Lenovo owns IBM's hardware side, I suspect that IBM equipment prices will go down and quality too.

Apple is lucky that there is a market niche for more expensive, but on the whole better quality machines, but that market will never be very big. The Mac mini will help there to a certain extent, but it won't make a huge difference.

Foo2 is right in one respect, though. Any IT organisation needs good planning and management, regardless of what hardware and OS you use. Sadly, a lot of IT organisations are under to save money, and often quality suffers as a result, even though this often leads to higher support costs.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by theolein

I used to manage a small company's IT and we bought Dell's in 2002, mainly for price reasons (I initially wanted IBM) and we had a lot of hardware problems with the machines. No fewer than 3 of the 20 machines were DOA. After the outsourced tech repair replaced various hardware, in one case the entire insides of the machine (cpu, ram, motherboard, powersupply), two of those machines would still intermittently refuse to recognise the DVD drives. Note that the BIOS was not seeing the drives, so it was nothing to do with Windows.

The total cost in lost time was astronomical.

This might be an exception, and Dell might be quite good, but, judging from the large amount of complaints about Dell and its tech support, I suspect that the quality is simply not that good, on average.

The only places I see large complaints are on the internet, and as a proportion of total users (1 of ever 3 PCs is a Dell in many markets) Dell has far higher numbers than everyone else, so one would expect to see significantly more complaints.

When one looks at objective data, though, Dell is quickly shown to be among the very best - typically in first or second place in the industry.

Unfortunately, one doesn't get a very good sense of problems when reading forums such as this one. Add to that the fact that Dell is so common and it's even less informative.

I also suspect that it has a lot to do with Dell's never ending quest to cut prices. Something has to give eventually when the margins become ever smaller and price pressure higher, and that something is more often than not quality.

Intel motherboards? Intel chipsets? Intel CPUs? Maxtor hard drives? nVidia and ATI graphics? Samsung RAM? Pure crap, eh? Not even the most foolish would believe that. The hardware used in the industry is very generic, but Dell's builder (Intel) is among the best in the world.

[Big Mac]

Last weekend I was watching a financial analyst talk about how wonderful Dell is because it is the WalMart of PCs. He actually made that comparison in a positive way.

[itguy05]

Originally Posted by foo2

False. Dell currently (www.gotapex.com) offers the Dimension 4700 with PCE-Express graphics port, integrated graphics, AND 19" LCD monitor, shipped and delivered, for $529. It's a P4/2.8 with hyperthreading and uses one of Intel's premium chipsets. Included sound, keyboard, mouse, etc. - all the normal stuff.

That's funny - going to Dell's website directly at http://www1.us.dell.com/content/prod...=04&l=en&s=bsd

shows it at $758 with a 15" flat panel, 40Gb, 256MB, and a whopping 90 day warranty. Sure, it's a Peee4, but that's about all that's good with it.

LOL. 30% market share is massive. It's *incredible*. It's 10-15x larger than Apple. You don't think that's huge? One out of every three PCs sold is a Dell - you don't think that's incredible?

No, I don't. GM makes and sells the largest amount of cars but one would never confuse them with a quality car manufacturer.

Please detail how. All of the reviews, including Consumer Reports, suggest they're right up there with Apple near the top.

Dell has an unsatisfactory rating from the Better Business Bureau
Dell's recent showing in many of the PC magazine polls has been slipping.

Where I work we went from IBM on the desktop to Dell (and now are at HP) and few really like them. From what I gather (I play with servers all day and we're still IBM) from talking to the client relations folks, the Dells we got are garbage and all are "corporate machines".

The desktops have networking issues and will frequently drop the connection for no reason (not sure of the model - on of the corporate models). Laptops cannot take the rigors of travel (D600/800) and have had numerous issues. The AIOs from Dell are also slow and are proving to be unreliable as well.

I've seen (and used) 3 year old ThinkPads that were put through Hell and Back that keep on working. A 1 year old D600 that had a less demanding life is already a POS with creaks, wobbling screen hinges, etc. And it's not just 1 or 2 machines, but quite a few.

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind against Dell. Were you beat up by Michael Dell as a kid? Why the anger?

Nope - never been to Texas. But anyway, being in the industry I've seen what Dell has done to the business and it's sickening. Dupe the public into buying garbage machines at a really cheap price. Sort of like how Wal-Mart has done the same thing to retailing.

I am not even going to debate the three fallacies you have mentioned. Had you mentioned something that could be debatable i.e. Dell diverging from its core compentency by entering consumer electronics market - smart or bad move? That is something to discuss. But you managed to turn three things that are true factual with Dell into so-called an dpoorly fallacies is a pure joke.

That's nice, Klinux. Your posts are mostly humorous for me as well. Your lack of insight never ceases to amaze me.

Look inside a Dell box and you will see how the corners are cut. Low end power supplies, inferior motherboard designs (ever wonder why Dell places in the middle-bottom to the bottom of the pack in similarly configured systems)

I hope you do not work at my company. I will have you replaced ASAP.

Naah, I'm way too successful for that.

Intel motherboards? Intel chipsets? Intel CPUs? Maxtor hard drives? nVidia and ATI graphics? Samsung RAM? Pure crap, eh? Not even the most foolish would believe that. The hardware used in the industry is very generic, but Dell's builder (Intel) is among the best in the world.

Reference Intel motherboards. Which means that the performance is not that great.
Intel CPUs are not the best (nor have they been for a long time) - AMD is currently the king of the x86 CPU world. Not even the P4 Emergency Edition (err, EE) is all that great.
Maxtor hard drives - let me introduce you to something known as "contract manufacturing". Some manufacturers (and retailers) will get vendors to produce "special" versions of their products for them. That's what Dell and many other large OEM's do.
It's also well known that Dell bastardizes the nVidia, ATI, and even Intel Drivers and BIOS'es so that your only hope for drivers is Dell.

Back in the ME to XP upgrade days, Dell was very slow to update its consumer drivers for XP. That left many people without video, LAN, etc. drivers for their Dell systems as the generic drivers wouldn't work due to Dell's customized BIOS'es. Dell's response was "we only guartantee that your system will work with the OS it shipped with and if you want XP, buy a new computer". This has been well documented on the Web and elsewhere.

The same theme applies - if you want a quality computer, don't buy a Dell.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by itguy05

That's funny - going to Dell's website directly at http://www1.us.dell.com/content/prod...=04&l=en&s=bsd

shows it at $758 with a 15" flat panel, 40Gb, 256MB, and a whopping 90 day warranty. Sure, it's a Peee4, but that's about all that's good with it.

You didn't notice that I put "it's a sale" in my original text?
You didn't notice that I explicitly showed how to get that price, in my original text?
Your honesty isn't...forthcoming. That's annoying in a debate like this one.
You can still go to www.gotapex.com and redeem yourself though - go take a look. Be sure and post what you find, and how it's $529 as I said.

Original Comment: Dell has huge market share - Not really. They only have ~30% of the PC market.

and

No, I don't. GM makes and sells the largest amount of cars but one would never confuse them with a quality car manufacturer.

Your original comment was that you didn't think Dell had huge market share. It's comical that you don't think a company that sells 1 of every 3 PCs isn't huge.

Dell has an unsatisfactory rating from the Better Business Bureau
Dell's recent showing in many of the PC magazine polls has been slipping.

Can't comment on 'many magazine polls', but again, you're back to a poll - where the number of users complaining influences the outcome. Even basic statistics should tell you that any online poll is inherently a self-selected, invalid sample.

And Dell and the Better Business Bureau? http://www.centraltx.bbb.org/commonr...html?bid=41453 shows they are a member in good standing. Another Dell computer company in Austin has all of *two* complaints against it in the past 3 years, so somehow I suspect that's another Dell or another entity.

Where I work we went from IBM on the desktop to Dell (and now are at HP) and few really like them. From what I gather (I play with servers all day and we're still IBM) from talking to the client relations folks, the Dells we got are garbage and all are "corporate machines".

What an odd choice for a corporation.

The desktops have networking issues and will frequently drop the connection for no reason (not sure of the model - on of the corporate models). Laptops cannot take the rigors of travel (D600/800) and have had numerous issues. The AIOs from Dell are also slow and are proving to be unreliable as well.

All I can say is that Consumer Reports doesn't agree with you, and they're generally thought to have the best and most unbiased reporting in the industry.

I've seen (and used) 3 year old ThinkPads that were put through Hell and Back that keep on working. A 1 year old D600 that had a less demanding life is already a POS with creaks, wobbling screen hinges, etc. And it's not just 1 or 2 machines, but quite a few.

You obviously don't like Dells.

Reference Intel motherboards. Which means that the performance is not that great.

You can overclock on your gamerz/hackerz box at home. For real work, I'll stick with reliable and safe. Reference Intel motherboards are exactly what you want for work.

Intel CPUs are not the best (nor have they been for a long time) - AMD is currently the king of the x86 CPU world. Not even the P4 Emergency Edition (err, EE) is all that great.

That's amusing. Really. But for reliable work, you don't want to switch to the vendor of the week and the chipset of the week. SLI systems don't enter into the picture either. This isn't buying a machine for your game closet. This is enterprise purchasing - thousands of machines. Performance, if within 5-10%, isn't part of the criteria. There are many other factors involved, and given what I've read above, I suspect your familiarity with them approaches zero. The criteria frequently has more to do with cost, reliability and having Intel inside (with mature, well-tested drivers and mature, well-tested compatibility) than almost anything else. And at that Dell does very, very well.

Maxtor hard drives - let me introduce you to something known as "contract manufacturing". Some manufacturers (and retailers) will get vendors to produce "special" versions of their products for them. That's what Dell and many other large OEM's do.
It's also well known that Dell bastardizes the nVidia, ATI, and even Intel Drivers and BIOS'es so that your only hope for drivers is Dell.

False. I can buy an ATI or nVidia AGP or PCI-Express card from Dell and use the vendor's current driver set. Laptops are another story, but that's industry-wide, and isn't just a Dell issue. The BIOS, of course, is motherboard-specific, which, also, is industry-wide, so you can't blame Dell for any of that. In fact, you can't blame Dell for most of what you've said.

Back in the ME to XP upgrade days, Dell was very slow to update its consumer drivers for XP. That left many people without video, LAN, etc. drivers for their Dell systems as the generic drivers wouldn't work due to Dell's customized BIOS'es. Dell's response was "we only guartantee that your system will work with the OS it shipped with and if you want XP, buy a new computer". This has been well documented on the Web and elsewhere.

It has also been well documented on the Web and elsewhere that Martina Sirtis did por_. That's false too.

The same theme applies - if you want a quality computer, don't buy a Dell.

Consumer Reports and the industry disagree with you.

[ghporter]

From PC Magazine's 2003 Service and Reliability Survey:
07.10.03
Service Reliability-Desktops

For the 12th time in 13 years, Dell earns an A or A+ for desktop PCs. This year, Dell has company at the top: Apple, not on the charts last year because of its modest share among survey takers, joins Dell with an A+.

PC Magazine has a rigorous and well built survey program that is conducted by a third party. Every year, they run this survey and post the results in July. And as the quote points out, Dell stays on top. Note that last year Apple's market share had grown enough for its products to show up on the survey-and of course Apple rated highly.

Here's the survey results from last year. Note that Dell still has problems with their laptops, but they are at the top with servers and desktops.

I still say that a large market share translates into a numerically large number of failures, but Dell's FAILURE RATE is still fairly low.

[Todd Madson]

Having been in the IT world for many years and in the support world for more years than I
care to count, irate customers are part of the business. The anonymity of telephone contact
allows individuals to unload their worries and frustrations on phone drones with little worry of
reprisal. It's part of the business.

[jcadam]

I got irate on the phone with a customer service rep twice in my life:

1.) With Deutsch Telekom (From my time in Europe, I've learned that German companies suck at customer service, at least I was yelling at 'the supervisor', though she did yell back).
2.) WIth a customer service rep from KDS (the company that makes cheap monitors). Had a monitor fail on me during the warranty period. Its refurbished replacement arrived DOA. Its refurbished replacement worked for a day. They finally sent me a brand new one express overnight after I said "It is clear to me that your products are junk." Meh. The brand new replacement is sitting in a closet right now, dead after 6 months of use.

[klinux]

Originally Posted by itguy05

going to Dell's website directly at

Please. Only suckers and Mac fans who like to quote retail price go directly to Dell and price things out. Most Dell purchases are through sales and promotions which Dell has constantly like retailers e.g. Macy's.

Originally Posted by itguy05

I'm way too successful for that.

Among the many things you have said, this is the one I doubt the most.

All these rants against Dell's proprietary parts are so misplaced when you yourself has argued that many large computer manufacturers do that. Apple being one of them of course.

For everything you said, it comes down to anectodal evidence - "what I tried and did not work and therefore I will generalize it to the world". It goes back to as if you bought a lemon Camry and generalize the Toyota is an unreliable manufacturer. Others have posted more concrete evidence and also their own background which appears to be more extensive than yours.

Folks, I think it is time to give up an itguy05. He's obvious a troll/flamebait.

[BoomStick]

I have 2 Dells, one that I bought just last week.

The first I bought last December is an 8300 P4 2.4 and it has worked fine with the exception of the tons of adware, spyware and viruses that plague it daily.

The second is the newest one is a 4700 P4 3.0 and I got it off the Dell outlet section for $460 plus a $200 19" FPD.

I use them to translate Publisher files to PDF and to play games on only.

I don't consider the Dells "bad" computers, just inexpensive disposable computers as they are obsolite within a week of purchase.

However I have a room full of G4's and they have been relatively trouble free over the years given the occasional hard disk upgrade.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

I have 2 Dells, one that I bought just last week.

The first I bought last December is an 8300 P4 2.4 and it has worked fine with the exception of the tons of adware, spyware and viruses that plague it daily.

So download (free) Microsoft Antispyware from www.microsoft.com/antispyware. It should take you all of 2 minutes to completely fix that problem now and forever.

The second is the newest one is a 4700 P4 3.0 and I got it off the Dell outlet section for $460 plus a $200 19" FPD.
I don't consider the Dells "bad" computers, just inexpensive disposable computers as they are obsolite within a week of purchase.

How so?

However I have a room full of G4's and they have been relatively trouble free over the years given the occasional hard disk upgrade.

No malware, that's true.

[BoomStick]

Thanks, I'll do it now.

My 8300 cost twice what the 4700 did and the 4700 is now superior for half the cost.

Meh, they do their job and play Battlefield Vietnam just fine.

All real work I put on the G5 anyways.

[BoomStick]

I just read that the spyware and adware compnies are paying to be taken off the search list, rendering the software useless.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

I just read that the spyware and adware compnies are paying to be taken off the search list, rendering the software useless.

For some company's antispyware, sure. Not Microsoft's.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

My 8300 cost twice what the 4700 did and the 4700 is now superior for half the cost.

That's not Dell's fault that you bought something and paid too much. The magazines could've told you that a) price drops per performance very quickly, which is a very good thing for the users and b) the Dell 8x00 series offers only marginally more performance at greatly increased cost.

In short, why didn't you read benchmarks before buying, if that was an issue? Why do you blame Dell for your purchase? They're just offering a product.....it's up to people to decide to buy it or not. You determined that the extra 3-5% speed was worth anywhere from 25 to 50% more money.

The Dell 4x00 series has long been the price/performance champ, with AGP port for games and current good Intel chipset.

[BoomStick]

It's that way with ALL pc's.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

It's that way with ALL pc's.

What's a better alternative? Would it be better if your hardware (CPU, GPU, etc.) never increased, and prices stayed the same? Of course not. The free and open market and free and open competition means that vendors will compete for your business, performance will continue to go up, and prices will continue to go down. To have it any other way is foolish.

A computer is just like anything else that's mass-produced and deals with technology that you buy - a car, phone, TV, etc - it will drop in value. That's just how it works.

[BoomStick]

Like I said, I buy pc's to be disposable.

I keep it for a year and give it away and I'll keep a mac for 5 years usually before rendering it to mundane tasks. I have a 7300 that does nothing but rip files for a proofer now and it is as healthy as ever.

I have an old iMac doing nothing but billing and email.

[klinux]

Originally Posted by foo2

So download (free) Microsoft Antispyware from www.microsoft.com/antispyware. It should take you all of 2 minutes to completely fix that problem now and forever.

Or Yahoo! toolbar with anti-spy, Spybot, or AdAware. All free and all highly rated too.

[foo2]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

Like I said, I buy pc's to be disposable.
I keep it for a year and give it away and I'll keep a mac for 5 years usually before rendering it to mundane tasks. I have a 7300 that does nothing but rip files for a proofer now and it is as healthy as ever.
I have an old iMac doing nothing but billing and email.

Agreed; PCs are far less expensive and so it's much easier to have a current, fast PC on your desk.

(Was there another point to that?)