[goMac]

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Report...h_to_0524.html

"Vice President Dick Cheney believes the US should not be pursuing a diplomatic path with Iran, and a senior aide to the vice president has been meeting with national security think tanks and consultants in Washington to "help establish the policy and political pathway to bombing Iran," Steve Clemons reported Thursday on his blog, The Washington Note."

"Cheney's team wants to work with Israel, nudging the country at some key moment to mount a small-scale attack on the suspected site of Iran's nuclear infrastructure, which could lead to an Iranian counter attack on US forces stationed in the Persian Gulf, Clemons reports."

[Saetre]

I'm a litte torn. I agree that there is a reasonable chance that this could lead to WWIII. Then again, I certainly don't trust Iran's president with nukes and if we are going to do something about it, now would be the time. It's quite the conundrum really.

[Saetre]

I do think that if we do something, we should keep Israel out of it as much as possible. Getting them involved will only add insult to injury, and increase the chances of igniting the powder keg.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

There will never be a WWIII.

China relies on the West for investment and to export goods to.
India relies on the West to export too, to import from and for job creation and investment.
Africa relies on Europe for most of its trade.
Russia has no friends anywhere. It's only choice is to forget about the USSR and join the EU.
North Korea likes to love it some American dollars.
Pakistan wants and is given American arms to keep it quiet.
Egypt hates Iran.
The UAE and Saudi Arabia hate Iran.
Even the Taleban and al-Qaeda hate Iran!
Iran's only friend Syria has its problems with Kurdistan, Turkey, Israel and Lebanon.

Bombing Iran is not the best choice however. Strangling the regime and sabotaging its nuclear projects with some James Bond stylee moves would be good. Make it look like an accident

[monkeybrain]

Old Ben, I think your logic is sound (including the James Bond stylee assault) but history doesn't really bear it out. I don't know the statistics offhand, but before the First World War the UK and Germany had very extensive trade, more so than even until quite recently. Certainly the world has never been so linked economically as it has been today, but I think still sometimes national sentiment will be more powerful.

Does Iran even have any proper launch systems for any nuclear weapons it may or may not have? I don't think a war in Iran would lead to a world war, since I don't really think many countries would support them, there would be too much to loose in any case. I'm sure many Middle Eastern countries would love Iran to go under, to give them a chance to increase their power.

Surely Iraq has proved (again) that attacking a foreign power to topple its regime is not effective (as in the reconstruction afterwards). Much better to try and subvert its regime over the long term, but certainly very hard.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Saetre 

I do think that if we do something, we should keep Israel out of it as much as possible. Getting them involved will only add insult to injury, and increase the chances of igniting the powder keg.

Exactly. The WWIII comment is based upon Cheney wanting to use Isreal to indirectly start a war. His entire goal is to cause a war that spills over between countries until it reaches the U.S., forcing us to go to war. That's how World Wars start.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain 

Does Iran even have any proper launch systems for any nuclear weapons it may or may not have?

They do. The Shahab-6 has a 5500km range.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Exactly. The WWIII comment is based upon Cheney wanting to use Isreal to indirectly start a war. His entire goal is to cause a war that spills over between countries until it reaches the U.S., forcing us to go to war. That's how World Wars start.

World wars start when there are many polarized fuedal or authoritarian regimes who do not need to rely on each other and feel it would be better to take other nations over. The conditions for this don't exist any longer as the number of authoritarian regimes and fuedal systems has decreased dramatically with globalism and there are now very close-knit economic ties that bind so many nations, cultures and individuals together.

Modern international warfare is best described as 'cooperative security operations'. For example, there is no war in Iraq right now. Wars are fought between national armies, and the Iraqi army was defeated in the first two weeks of the invasion. Every since then the Coalition has been involved in a security, policing and nation building operation.

I suggest the use of a non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) or e-Bomb to permanently put an end to the nuclear plants with minimum or no damage to Iran's people.

Electromagnetic bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

World wars start when there are many polarized fuedal or authoritarian regimes who do not need to rely on each other and feel it would be better to take other nations over. The conditions for this don't exist any longer as the number of authoritarian regimes and fuedal systems has decreased dramatically with globalism and there are now very close-knit economic ties that bind so many nations, cultures and individuals together.

Um no. The reason a World War starts is when two countries began calling in so many alliances that eventually everyone is involved in the war. The dangerous thing is that Cheney is specifically trying to getting Israel to call in it's alliances forcing the U.S.A. to go to war.

Yes, traditionally World Wars have been started by one regime getting territory hungry. But really that sort of conflict, at least in World War I, was confined to two countries. What made it a World War is that both sides called in their alliances until everyone was involved.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Modern international warfare is best described as 'cooperative security operations'. For example, there is no war in Iraq right now. Wars are fought between national armies, and the Iraqi army was defeated in the first two weeks of the invasion. Every since then the Coalition has been involved in a security, policing and nation building operation.

Right. And Hillary Clinton is George Bush's uncle.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

I suggest the use of a non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) or e-Bomb to permanently put an end to the nuclear plants with minimum or no damage to Iran's people.

Star Trek called. They want their plot device back.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Electromagnetic bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If they existed, would they magically find their way to Iran's secret nuke sites?

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Um no. The reason a World War starts is when two countries began calling in so many alliances that eventually everyone is involved in the war.

First, don't um no me. Second, Iran has no real alliances. Everyone in the world involved in war because of action taken on Iran? Don't think so. War of words for a while, yes. The reality is most nations would prefer a non-hostile regime because that is good business. It's good for China, Russia, Iraq, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, etc

Personally I think the biggest threat to security in the world isn't Iran. It's Pakistan. General Musharaf won't be around forever to keep things stable and Islamism there has been growing for years.

If they existed, would they magically find their way to Iran's secret nuke sites?

They aren't secret. In case you didn't notice, inspectors have visited them many times but weren't allowed to make full inspections.

[Cipher13]

It's funny, isn't it... why the hell does the US Gvt care so much about the middle-east, but not about, say, Africa?

Gee, I wonder.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

First, don't um no me. Second, Iran has no real alliances.

Syria, Russia, China, and North Korea. The U.S. isn't the only one that could line North Korea's pockets.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Everyone in the world involved in war because of action taken on Iran? Don't think so. War of words for a while, yes. The reality is most nations would prefer a non-hostile regime because that is good business. It's good for China, Russia, Iraq, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, etc

Russia and China have limited interest in a stable U.S. economy. Our economy's manufacturing is based in China, so it's not like China really needs our goods because our goods come from China anyway. And Russia and China would both prefer if our economy was diminished in the world marketplace. If our economy runs into trouble, China becomes the worlds economic superpower. Countries that are at the bottom of the food chain have reason to suck up to us. Russia might be willing to suck up to us. China I don't think would.

Iran has been pursuing the diplomacy route with other countries while Bush has been twiddling his thumbs. You notice Russia and China are the first to oppose any U.S. action against Iran in the U.N. The Iraq war has stirred up a lot of anti-U.S. sediment. I really don't think we could count on any countries outside of Europe helping us with an Iran war, and those countries might even be willing to go against us.

Heck. Russia supplies Iran's army.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Personally I think the biggest threat to security in the world isn't Iran. It's Pakistan. General Musharaf won't be around forever to keep things stable and Islamism there has been growing for years.

Islam isn't the problem. Fundamentalism is.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

They aren't secret. In case you didn't notice, inspectors have visited them many times but weren't allowed to make full inspections.

Ok... Saddam was an idiot. Everyone knew it. The reason most smart people know he was probably telling the truth about not having weapons of mass destruction was because he sucked at lying. Ahmadinejad is not an idiot. He most likely has secret locations he is withholding from inspectors. That said, I don't think that alone is reason to go to war. This idea of the U.N. forcing inspections on sovereign nations is silly anyway.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Syria, Russia, China, and North Korea. The U.S. isn't the only one that could line North Korea's pockets.

All those countries don't give a damn who is in charge in Iran. China and Russia have super strong economic ties with nations who are not friends with Iran.

Russia and China have limited interest in a stable U.S. economy.

OMG now you're tickling me.

Our economy's manufacturing is based in China, so it's not like China really needs our goods because our goods come from China anyway.

Excuse me?

And Russia and China would both prefer if our economy was diminished in the world marketplace.

OMG you tickled me so hard I'm in pain from laughing!

If our economy runs into trouble, China becomes the worlds economic superpower.

LOL. How do you become the world's economic superpower when just about everything the world wants and relies on is a product of Europe, Japan and the US, all protected by copyrights and patents?

Iran has been pursuing the diplomacy route with other countries while Bush has been twiddling his thumbs.

Iran pursuing diplomacy with who?

You notice Russia and China are the first to oppose any U.S. action against Iran in the U.N.

The both oppose Iran having nuclear weapons.

The Iraq war has stirred up a lot of anti-U.S. sediment.

Sediment. Nice.

I really don't think we could count on any countries outside of Europe helping us with an Iran war, and those countries might even be willing to go against us.

Against how? Who?

Heck. Russia supplies Iran's army.

And opposes Iran obtaining nuclear weapons.

Islam isn't the problem. Fundamentalism is.

I said Islamism.

This idea of the U.N. forcing inspections on sovereign nations is silly anyway.

Certainly not as silly as your sudden expertise in politics that you managed to cram in between talking about Nintendo superiority.

Please, goMac, leave a debate like this for people who are up to scratch. Sometimes it is better to be a silent observer.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

All those countries don't give a damn who is in charge in Iran.

So then why would the help us? You just defeated your own argument.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

China and Russia have super strong economic ties with nations who are not friends with Iran.

Such as...?

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

LOL. How do you become the world's economic superpower when just about everything the world wants and relies on is a product of Europe, Japan and the US, all protected by copyrights and patents?

Products from the U.S.? Everything has been shipped overseas, manufacturing.... research. China makes our goods already.

Patents and copyrights? Who's going to enforce U.S. patents in China? Santa Clause? The tooth fairy? Paris Hilton? A nun with a ruler?

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Iran pursuing diplomacy with who?

China, Russia, and North Korea. You know, the countries we're talking about.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

The both oppose Iran having nuclear weapons.

No they really aren't. Where did you get that idea? Iran is a primary supplier of fuel to China and Russia, and China has very heavy fuel requirements these days.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Certainly not as silly as your sudden expertise in politics that you managed to cram in between talking about Nintendo superiority.

You don't hang out in the political forum much, do you?

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Please, goMac, leave a debate like this for people who are up to scratch. Sometimes it is better to be a silent observer.

If you don't want your opinions challenged, don't post to begin with. Not everyone can deal with opposing viewpoints maturely.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

World wars start when there are many polarized fuedal or authoritarian regimes who do not need to rely on each other and feel it would be better to take other nations over.

You know what. I realized you're right. You just described the U.S.'s role in the world.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Patents and copyrights? Who's going to enforce U.S. patents in China?

Jeez whiz.

It's called the World Trade Organisation (WTO). Talks with the WTO over this issue reached very good conclusions just yesterday. A month earlier China promised to tackle copyright violations and piracy, resulting in many Chinese businesses being inspected and goods taken away by authorities.

And the rest of your extremely amateur knowledge of the world, like your theory that China wants to be the superpower and that they and Russia would prefer a world without the US, I mean, you don't even have a clue about how the global stock exchanges work. If you did you wouldn't have said all the crap you did so far. The world is -> nothing <- without American success. China knows this well and invests heavily in the NASDAQ and NYSE. Here's another one: Arabs own 7% of all stock traded on Wall Street.

Iran is a primary supplier of fuel to China and Russia, and China has very heavy fuel requirements these days.

Russia and China are opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons. You can stop playing your Nintendo for a few minutes every half hour to patronise people with your expertise but it won't change real world facts.

Iran is behaving like a pariah. We don't need to change the regime there because they have a partial democracy. But we can stop their nuclear program by sanctions, sabotage or even force and nobody would take action over it.

You don't hang out in the political forum much, do you?

With who, Nintendo addicts?

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You know what. I realized you're right. You just described the U.S.'s role in the world.

You're a joke for comparing the US to Nazi Germany or Japan and have just insulted every war veteran who died fighting that war and every victim of that world war.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

The world is -> nothing <- without American success.

Quoted so it doesn't get edited away. I think that line says a lot about you.

Oh and FYI, the world was something long before America came along, and will be long after it destroys itself. Just a little history lesson.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Quoted so it doesn't get edited away. I think that line says a lot about you.

Go ahead and quote it a billion times. The EU knows it, the middle east knows it, Africa knows it, Asia knows it and Russia knows it. That's why they are all heavily invested in it. Israel could bomb Iran's nuclear plants and there would be little change except that Iran won't be able to roll back the changes that are reshaping the region. Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak and WWIII never happened.

Oh and FYI, the world was something long before America came along, and will be long after it destroys itself. Just a little history lesson.

America will never destroy itself. The US is at the forefront of changing the world into a new world order (more equal, more free, more human rights, but a hard hand against anyone who wants to go back to the stone ages) and is helped along by the EU, many of the Arabian elite, India, China, Japan and most of everyone else. Attacking the US is just something fashionable and trendy. Makes insecure people feel powerful. Used to do it myself when I was younger.

Want to carry on attacking the country that has made the most important contribution to humanity in the whole of history? Go ahead.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Go ahead and quote it a billion times. The EU knows it, the middle east knows it, Africa knows it, Asia knows it and Russia knows it. That's why they are all heavily invested in it. Israel could bomb Iran's nuclear plants and there would be little change except that Iran won't be able to roll back the changes that are reshaping the region. Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak and WWIII never happened.

You're a fool if you truly think that. The world is DIFFERENT without the US, but "nothing"? Hah.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

America will never destroy itself. The US is at the forefront of changing the world into a new world order (more equal, more free, more human rights, but a hard hand against anyone who wants to go back to the stone ages) and is helped along by the EU, many of the Arabian elite, India, China, Japan and most of everyone else. Attacking the US is just something fashionable and trendy. Makes insecure people feel powerful. Used to do it myself when I was younger.

Want to carry on attacking the country that has made the most important contribution to humanity in the whole of history? Go ahead.

Ah, ignorance. So terribly amusing.

American will never destroy itself? No, of course not. Not like the Roman empire did... or the French empire... or the British empire... or the Egyptian empire... shall I continue?

More equal? More free? Freedom to believe what you want and say what you want? The latter is already disappearing, and the only reason people have the freedom to think what they want is because nobody has found a way to prevent that yet... give it time.

The country that has made the most important contribution to humanity? Are you serious? Which contribution would this be? I would honestly give that honour to the Roman empire. What has the US done that's so special in the grand scheme of things?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it isn't important, or influential; I'm simply saying that your hyperbole is unjustified, and incorrect.

I'm also sure you don't care, but you have completely disqualified any remark you could possibly make, in my mind, by playing the "...when I was younger" card in the same paragraph as the "trendy" card. Please.

EDIT: Changed "sentence" to "paragraph".

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

What has the US done that's so special in the grand scheme of things?

Is this serious?

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

American will never destroy itself? No, of course not. Not like the Roman empire did... or the French empire... or the British empire... or the Egyptian empire... shall I continue?

The US is not and does not have an empire. My god.

BTW, Italy, France, Britain and Egypt still exist and are still important players.

More equal? More free? Freedom to believe what you want and say what you want? The latter is already disappearing, and the only reason people have the freedom to think what they want is because nobody has found a way to prevent that yet... give it time.

Bull. It's bad economics to take away freedom of innovation, speech and expression. If you're really interested in preserving your freedom you should be here defending nations that give you those freedoms instead of relegating them to doom.

Americans have been dying for over 200 years to defend liberty and you go and just spit on all of it, even when Americans put their credibility and lives on the line for others.

What has the US done that's so special in the grand scheme of things?

I'm not going to answer that. No one should have to answer that.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Is this serious?

Deadly. What makes the accomplishments of the US dwarf that of every other civilisation in history, as Obi suggested they did?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

It's called the World Trade Organisation (WTO). Talks with the WTO over this issue reached very good conclusions just yesterday. A month earlier China promised to tackle copyright violations and piracy, resulting in many Chinese businesses being inspected and goods taken away by authorities.

I hate to break it to you, but China can't stop their own pirates, and they don't really want to. They'll make a few busts to appease the WTO, but everyone knows that they don't really control the pirates.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

And the rest of your extremely amateur knowledge of the world, like your theory that China wants to be the superpower and that they and Russia would prefer a world without the US, I mean, you don't even have a clue about how the global stock exchanges work. If you did you wouldn't have said all the crap you did so far. The world is -> nothing <- without American success. China knows this well and invests heavily in the NASDAQ and NYSE. Here's another one: Arabs own 7% of all stock traded on Wall Street.

How much American money do you think is in China?

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Russia and China are opposed to Iran having nuclear weapons.

That's funny. They drag their feet every time Iran is talked about in the UN.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

You can stop playing your Nintendo for a few minutes every half hour to patronise people with your expertise but it won't change real world facts.

Isn't your recess time over by now?

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Iran is behaving like a pariah. We don't need to change the regime there because they have a partial democracy. But we can stop their nuclear program by sanctions, sabotage or even force and nobody would take action over it.

Iran isn't stupid. If their nuclear program is sabotaged, they're probably going to have a pretty good idea of who did it. And Iran would take action over that.

Honestly, if we had some real diplomacy time with Iran, I don't think this would be a problem. The Iranians, while partisan, don't seem unreasonable. They certainly aren't North Korea. Iran doesn't want money, they don't even really have any motivation for war. I don't see them nuking Israel because they know they'd get nuked back, and they'd probably kill a lot of Arabs.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Deadly. What makes the accomplishments of the US dwarf that of every other civilisation in history, as Obi suggested they did?

Can you believe Cipher is sitting there on his American computer saying that in a world that America transformed so that people would be able to communicate and express themselves so freely and quickly?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

You're a joke for comparing the US to Nazi Germany or Japan and have just insulted every war veteran who died fighting that war and every victim of that world war.

I like to think those U.S. troops fought so that the U.S. wouldn't become another Nazi Germany or Japan, which is the same reason I don't like the U.S.'s recent military actions.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Can you believe Cipher is sitting there on his American computer saying that in a world that America transformed so that people would be able to communicate and express themselves so freely and quickly?

Psssst. The first computers weren't American. And Cipher most likely is not sitting on an American made computer.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

The US is not and does not have an empire. My god.

BTW, Italy, France, Britain and Egypt still exist and are still important players.

Those empires were the greatest of their time. The US is the "greatest" of ours. Is the comparison not fair? And no, they're not important players at all amongst the US, China, Russia, etc. They're remnants.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Bull. It's bad economics to take away freedom of innovation, speech and expression. If you're really interested in preserving your freedom you should be here defending nations that give you those freedoms instead of relegating them to doom.

Americans have been dying for over 200 years to defend liberty and you go and just spit on all of it.

It is bad economics, potentially (though not necessarily), which is why you only limit speech and expression to what is acceptable. Most people won't say things that are considered seditious, but what about those who do?

Such a superiority complex. No other cultures have given for liberty have they?

I wouldn't visit your country if you paid me, by the way. It has degenerated into everything that disgusts me. Mind you, my country is following suit, which makes it even worse; though its progress is far behind yours.

And no, I'm not spitting on you countries history - I praise it; it's what it is NOW degenerating into that disgusts me, because the principles it was founded on are being thrown out the window... and they were good principles.

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

I'm not going to answer that. No one should have to answer that.

Answer the question or relinquish the point.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

Can you believe Cipher is sitting there on his American computer saying that in a world that America transformed so that people would be able to communicate and express themselves so freely and quickly?

Firstly I'm sitting on a seat made in Taiwan, using a computer. Secondly, the keyboard and mouse are made in China, as I imagine are most of the components inside the tower itself.

I should clarify something, I suppose; I don't dislike the past actions of America so much. The abolition of slavery, women's rights, etc, were all major steps forward. I should make it clear that it is RECENT American actions and policies that I find dispicable.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by goMac 

How much American money do you think is in China?

Less than there are Chinese products in America. Did you read about the trade surplus?

That's funny. They drag their feet every time Iran is talked about in the UN.

It's not funny and they have not dragged their feet. Russia and China are adamant. No nuclear weapons for Iran. End of story.

Iran isn't stupid. If their nuclear program is sabotaged, they're probably going to have a pretty good idea of who did it. And Iran would take action over that.

They can't do sh!t.

Honestly, if we had some real diplomacy time with Iran, I don't think this would be a problem. The Iranians, while partisan, don't seem unreasonable.

Don't seem unreasonable?

1. They want Israel wiped off the map.
2. They deny the holocaust occured.
3. They held a conference to prove the holocaust didn't occur.
4. They've been sending terrorists and agitators into Iraq for 25 years.
5. The leadership has frequently held rallies crying for the 'death' of other nations and their people. These nations have included the US, UK, Denmark, Iraqi Sunnis, Saudis, Israelis and others.
6. Iraqis would have far greater security and stability today if it wasn't for Iranian interference.

Iran doesn't want money, they don't even really have any motivation for war. I don't see them nuking Israel because they know they'd get nuked back, and they'd probably kill a lot of Arabs.

Iran would use nuclear weapons to blackmail other nations and to be allowed to get away with anything it wants including creating more havoc in Iraq. The not so secret war that has existed in the middle east for 1000+ years has been between Shia and Sunni Muslims. The Persians have invaded the middle east many times but never had control of Mecca and Medina. This is the real battle that goes on behind the scenes. You let Iran have nukes and they'll checkmate the whole region. That would destabilise the world. Attacking Iran's nuclear facilities is the lesser of the two evils. That's why there are no countries who support Iran with nuclear weapons.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Those empires were the greatest of their time. The US is the "greatest" of ours. Is the comparison not fair?

No it isn't fair. An empire has an emperor or messianic figure of worship. Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan were empires. The US is not, can't be and doesn't want to be.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

No it isn't fair. An empire has an emperor or messianic figure of worship. Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan were empires. The US is not, can't be and doesn't want to be.

Ah yes, I used to argue semantics when I was young.

If you'd kindly note I never called the US an empire. I merely classified its level of power and influence with others that happened to be empires.

If you're gonna play the semantic game, play it right.

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Ah yes, I used to argue semantics when I was young.

If you'd kindly note I never called the US an empire. I merely classified its level of power and influence with others that happened to be empires.

If you're gonna play the semantic game, play it right.

You're playing the semantics game now that you got cornered on your comparison, but at least you've allowed an open door for me to make a point on your 'empire' theory.

The US, EU and China are in the process of creating the world's first stable global economy and merged stock exchange. China wants a Sino-American economy, not the downfall of the US. (they have even brought over architects from California to create Los Angeles style neighborhoods). It's not going to happen overnight because there are small but overcomable obstacles such as the value of the Yuan and human rights issues. But it is going to happen...well, it is happening as we speak so it's not even a theory.

Russia is at a crossroads. It still has to shake off the shadow of Soviet Union and come to terms with itself as a smaller keyplayer on the world's stage. They are currently transforming themselves into a major provider of energy to Western Europe and could very well become an EU member state in about 20 years when they no longer will have the resources they have today and will need to be subsidised.

Iran means little to China and Russia compared to the future that lies ahead for them. If anyone thinks the US is heading for a fall, forget it. Important American strategists hold conferences with foreign statesmen, businessmen and politicians every year (conspiracy theorists know this as Bilderberg Conferences). It is at these conferences that all the world's developed and developing nations and companies lay down their plans for a stabler world. Arabs, Russians, Japanese, Chinese and Indians have all been there taking part. It is only the pariahs like Iran who are not present because the Iranian regime does not represent the way forward.

Iran's fate has been decided like it or not. We'll stop their nuclear weapons program if they go forward with it. We don't need to remove the regime by force. The Iranian people will do the rest.

So believe what you want while playing your Nintendo or Taiwanese made American computer. Over and out.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

You're playing the semantics game now that you got cornered on your comparison, but at least you've allowed an open door for me to make a point on your 'empire' theory.

Uh, how do you go from you being wrong, to thinking I'm cornered? That's an interesting leap. Care to elaborate? No, probably not, because you don't have anything to go on. Right?

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

The US, EU and China are in the process of creating the world's first stable global economy and merged stock exchange. China wants a Sino-American economy, not the downfall of the US. (they have even brought over architects from California to create Los Angeles style neighborhoods). It's not going to happen overnight because there are small but overcomable obstacles such as the value of the Yuan and human rights issues. But it is going to happen...well, it is happening as we speak so it's not even a theory.

Russia is at a crossroads. It still has to shake off the shadow of Soviet Union and come to terms with itself as a smaller keyplayer on the world's stage. They are currently transforming themselves into a major provider of energy to Western Europe and could very well become an EU member state in about 20 years when they no longer will have the resources they have today and will need to be subsidised.

Iran means little to China and Russia compared to the future that lies ahead for them. If anyone thinks the US is heading for a fall, forget it. Important American strategists hold conferences with foreign statesmen, businessmen and politicians every year (conspiracy theorists know this as Bilderberg Conferences). It is at these conferences that all the world's developed and developing nations and companies lay down their plans for a stabler world. Arabs, Russians, Japanese, Chinese and Indians have all been there taking part. It is only the pariahs like Iran who are not present because the Iranian regime does not represent the way forward.

Iran's fate has been decided like it or not. We'll stop their nuclear weapons program if they go forward with it. We don't need to remove the regime by force. The Iranian people will do the rest.

Over and out.

Not a word of that has any relevance whatsoever to what I personally was discussing, and I have no problem with any of it. You might be right, you might be wrong; I don't care for global economics.

What you have done, however, is sidestepped our previous discussion, without revisiting anything I said. Close, but no cigar. I'll take that as you conceding the points about your beloved country and its degeneration.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

So believe what you want while playing your Nintendo or Taiwanese made American computer. Over and out.

Aw, so *not* "Over and out" then, post-edit?

Well, regardless, I'll say again - my computer is not American, and I don't own a Nintendo newer than the 64.

The more you simply assume you know, the more incorrect you'll be.

[Taliesin]

Obi Wan's Ghost seems to be angry about something that has nothing to do with the topics he posts about. Maybe he is frustrated that he has lost his body and can't engage in procreational activities anymore.

May the force be with him.

Taliesin

[madagaska]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

No it isn't fair. An empire has an emperor or messianic figure of worship. Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan were empires. The US is not, can't be and doesn't want to be.

Your country has morphed traditional imperialism into economic imperialism, with horrific consequences. They always create a justification for their actions which attempts to throw the most positive light onto their conquests. Man.. take your blinkers off.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost 

. . . the country that has made the most important contribution to humanity in the whole of history?

Do you really believe that about the United States? If so, that's a pretty scary belief to hold about a country. Hell, I have lived here my whole life (almost 37 years) and don't feel that way about the United States. How long have you lived in the United States, Obi Wan?

So, you plan to ignore the contributions to humanity from

• Classical Rome and Greece: The foundations of the democracy which we practice today
• The Middle Kingdom period in China (under the Han Dynasty)
• Medieval Europe and its development of a segmented commercial class (the specialization of work whereby you have a miller, weaver, baker, butcher, etc.)
• Moorish influence on the arts and commerce
• The Mughal period in INdian history
• Europe during the Renaissance
• England and then the US during the Industrial Revolution

Oh, and I do think Cheney is trying to start a war-by-proxy with Iran--started by Israel and maybe Iraq--to give us an excuse to go in there and bomb them as we "come to the aid" of the countries that started the war.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Yes, traditionally World Wars have been started by one regime getting territory hungry. But really that sort of conflict, at least in World War I, was confined to two countries. What made it a World War is that both sides called in their alliances until everyone was involved.

Traditionally???
We had 2 (two) world wars so far and only one has been started because a regime got territory hungry!
Sorry but it's very hard for me to see a tradition here!

btw, which 2 countries was WWI confined to in the beginning?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

It's funny, isn't it... why the hell does the US Gvt care so much about the middle-east, but not about, say, Africa?

President Bush doesn't care about black people.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by badidea 

btw, which 2 countries was WWI confined to in the beginning?

France and Germany. I don't think WWI actually ever left these two countries.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by goMac 

France and Germany. I don't think WWI actually ever left these two countries.

I hope you know that it started between Austria-Hungary and Serbia and that Germany was "only" one of the allies that got involved!

[goMac]

Originally Posted by badidea 

I hope you know that it started between Austria-Hungary and Serbia and that Germany was "only" one of the allies that got involved!

Yeah. The war wasn't entirely contained to the Western front. But that's where the most significant fighting was.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Yeah. The war wasn't entirely contained to the Western front. But that's where the most significant fighting was.

It would be better for you to acknowledge your lack of knowledge and hear others out. You would learn more than when you pretend to know everything (WWI, the definition of imperialism, the history of dealing with Iran, the Chinese trade surplus, the WTO, international stock markets, the list of things you have no clue about goes on forever).

Reading your comments here (and Cipher's cliché and monochromatic views about the USA) I feel pretty embarrassed for you.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

It would be better for you to acknowledge your lack of knowledge and hear others out. You would learn more than when you pretend to know everything (WWI, the definition of imperialism, the history of dealing with Iran, the Chinese trade surplus, the WTO, international stock markets, the list of things you have no clue about goes on forever).

Reading your comments here (and Cipher's cliché and monochromatic views about the USA) I feel pretty embarrassed for you.

Until its no longer trendy to hate America, you'll never get through to these types. He's not capable of admitting he doesn't know everything, and therefore won't consider the possibility that he doesn't. You won't get a productive debate out of him.

[Cipher13]

Whether or not it's "trendy" to hate America, that in no way influences how I feel about the country. There are genuine reasons for my disgust, and once they're rectified, I will gladly alter my position.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Yeah. The war wasn't entirely contained to the Western front. But that's where the most significant fighting was.

Well, that's all you ever see in the movies.
(The British were somewhat involved in that bit, too, btw.)

There was a LOT more going on that the drawn-out stalemate at the Western front: World War I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by goMac 

France and Germany. I don't think WWI actually ever left these two countries.

Austro-Hungarian Empire
Serbia
Russia
Britain
Italy
Togoland
...

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Whether or not it's "trendy" to hate America, that in no way influences how I feel about the country. There are genuine reasons for my disgust, and once they're rectified, I will gladly alter my position.

There are plenty of other nations and cultures you could be disgusted with whose civil standards are extremely low, ethics even lower and their positive contribution to the world is almost zero. If you have no hidden agenda and really have two balls between your legs try expressing your feelings about them too.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by madagaska 

Your country has morphed traditional imperialism into economic imperialism, with horrific consequences.....

Such horrors as

-subsidizing Britain, Germany and Japan after the war to the tune of billions of dollars
-bringing Japan and Germany into the modern era directly after they were both horrendous regimes
-helping the development of the European Union
-helping Jews re-establish their safety and cultural homeland for the first time in centuries
-bringing down the Soviet Union
-opening up and modernizing China
-lifting, supporting and demanding human rights and civil standards throughout the world
-creating employment opportunities throughout the world
-encouraging anyone of any color, creed or nation be successful as long as they are willing to work and be civil
-supporting countries that deserve support
-supporting countries that don't deserve support (that is too generous!)
-creating demand for natural resources, without which those "oil rich" countries wouldn't know what to do with their oil
-investing massive amounts of money and donations everywhere you can name
-putting the lives of soldiers at risk to defend the liberty of others against ideologies that should not spread
-encouraging free trade and free movement to foster global tourism

Of course for everything good you do there will be either a negative reaction or consequence. That's better than doing nothing and watching the world become worse or less civil. And every nation has corruption so there's little point in trying to make the US look like an evil bloodthirsty empire, especially when you have grown up living off all the benefits of US creativity.

Man.. take your blinkers off.

I'm not the one with the blinkers on.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

There are plenty of other nations and cultures you could be disgusted with whose civil standards are extremely low, ethics even lower and their positive contribution to the world is almost zero. If you have no hidden agenda and really have two balls between your legs try expressing your feelings about them too.

Of all the "other nations and cultures" I could be disgusted with, which of those have the power and influence to actually ****ing do something?

Oh, right, none. Let me know when the Democratic Republic of the Congo has the political stability to start making decisions that are actually useful to anyone outside their capital.