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oeyvind · Jun 17, 2002, 10:38 PM

<a href="http://www.oeyvind.org/news/story/0618020953.html" target="_blank">Just FYI: a bad bug</a>. Might not affect everyone.

malvolio · Jun 17, 2002, 10:43 PM

Hmmm, still butt-ugly compared to OmniWeb, and lacking Mozilla's tabbed browsing. At least I can do my on-line banking with it.
I do find it amusing that the very first item in the IE contextual menu is Internet Explorer Help...
(Oy, still no way to turn off pop-ups!)

[ 06-17-2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: malvolio ]

CharlesS · Jun 17, 2002, 10:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Eug:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CharlesS:
Well, it seems to be a full installer. It seems that my program is no longer the only means by which you can reinstall IE.

I was wondering how long that rather bizarre situation was going to last.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm... maybe they did that knowing that people are going to be uninstalling IE with all these other browsers available, only to find out too late they can't (easily) reinstall IE later.<hr /></blockquote>Well, it's long overdue. I'll be the first to admit that Pacifist was not an ideal way to install IE, because you got the 5.1.1 version that was on the install CD, and it was next to impossible to get the 5.1.3 update if you hadn't already saved it earlier. I actually reinstalled my copy of Mac OS X just so I could save the IE update file from Software Update and send it to people who sent me e-mail asking about this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />P.S. Congrats on getting your BootCD app into the latest Macworld's recommended list.

<hr /></blockquote>Thanks!

asxless · Jun 17, 2002, 11:44 PM

IE 5.2 seems to have a lower limit than Mozilla & OmniWeb on the number of bookmarks it can handle in its 'Favorites' menu.

I thought I'd give IE another try and imported the Bookmarks from my main browser Mozilla. IE gobbled them up but won't allow direct selection of all of them via the Favorites menu. The last half dozen folders of Bookmarks are missing the pop-out arrow and hence won't display the contents. Selecting the folder opens another window with the contents. So they are there but not directly selectable in the farovites menu

BTW OmniWeb imported the same Mozilla Bookmark file and allowed direct selection of all bookmarks.

asxless in iLand

D3k61 · Jun 17, 2002, 11:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
It's not a terrible invasion of privacy, but it is an invasion of privacy IMO. If you got new tires put on your car and the people at the shop changed all of the presets for your radio stations to stations they advertise on, you'd probably be pretty annoyed. Basically that's what happened here. I installed an upgrade, like new tires, and when they were servicing my computer they saw fit to advertise for themselves by changing my home page.<hr /></blockquote>Your argument would make sense if the people at the shop were putting new tires on your car for free.

While I'm certainly not a fan of M$, complaining about having to spend 10 seconds changing your homepage back is beyond ridiculous... get a grip people.

Rickster · Jun 18, 2002, 12:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1. Quartz rendering still looks like ass compared to OmniWeb. Brows over to slashdot or almost any other site and compare what you see to OmniWeb. OmniWeb is crips and clean and IE text looks like crap. It's the same with Chimera and Mozilla. What does Omni do differently to make everything look so nice?<hr /></blockquote>The CoreGraphics rendering options for QuickDraw Text introduced in 10.1.5 aren't the same as using the ATSUI or Cocoa text systems directly; among other differences, QuickDraw Text still does part of the layout process but calls CoerGraphics for rendering individual characters. So certain aspects of the text produced may not look the same.

Wil did some investigation of uising ATSUI directly for OmniWeb 5 some months ago... at least according to some of the people who saw it, its layout and antialiasing is even better than the Cocoa text ssytem we're using now. Should be fun.

Eug · Jun 18, 2002, 12:31 AM

"No other applications can be running during this installation. Click Continue to automatically quit all other running applications. Click Cancel to leave your disks untouched."

OK, now the arguments against the installer in this thread seem even more nitpicky. Initially I wondered if it just went ahead and closed everything without permission, and hence the dislike of it. Nope, it politely asks you if it can do so. If not you can terminate the installer. And then, once installed, it doesn't even do a complete optimize or ask for a reboot. Thus the install process takes literally under 1 minute. And people are complaining about it for this free program?

Anyways, it doesn't really seem hugely snappier to me on initial testing, but further testing and time will tell (no pun intended). (It's possibly somewhat faster, and certainly it doesn't feel slower. The problem here is I haven't done real testing using complicated pages loaded on my hard drive.) The anti-aliasing looks quite nice on some pages, but makes the readability slightly worse on others.

I haven't had the .gif-related BBOD (beachball of death) yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if I get it again later, since it's inconsistent for me to get that. Some days it will be frequent, whereas some weeks I never get it.

On some pages I still get the (partially) blank screen of weirdness though. Eg. with <a href="http://www.excite.com" target="_blank">www.excite.com</a> sometimes the page just doesn't seem to display properly until I drag the corner of the screen to make the corner of the window redraw.

[ 06-18-2002, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Eug ]

me · Jun 18, 2002, 02:08 AM

Though IE is making good ground, I'm still not pleased. My beefs:

Some text still looks like $hit
I really dislike the buttonbar and addressbar being separate
Still has those weird IE buttons, pulldown menus
faux striping is really annoying when themed
no open link behind this window
no sheets
probably still has security holes

Reasons I'd stick with OmniWeb:
Better d/l manager
pop up and ad blocking
spell check
better text quality
I already paid

JLL · Jun 18, 2002, 03:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TheMosco:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'd prefer a browser that respects open standards, even at the cost of making sites that use Microsnarf's "standards" look like crap.<hr /></blockquote>so if you go to <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/</a> in IE, it displays the navbar correctly. Most other others dont. Myabe IE is more complient then you think.<hr /></blockquote>IE doesn't highlight the menu items when the mouse is hovering above them - Mozilla does.

ratlater · Jun 18, 2002, 05:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rickster:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1. Quartz rendering still looks like ass compared to OmniWeb. Brows over to slashdot or almost any other site and compare what you see to OmniWeb. OmniWeb is crips and clean and IE text looks like crap. It's the same with Chimera and Mozilla. What does Omni do differently to make everything look so nice?<hr /></blockquote>The CoreGraphics rendering options for QuickDraw Text introduced in 10.1.5 aren't the same as using the ATSUI or Cocoa text systems directly; among other differences, QuickDraw Text still does part of the layout process but calls CoerGraphics for rendering individual characters. So certain aspects of the text produced may not look the same.

Wil did some investigation of uising ATSUI directly for OmniWeb 5 some months ago... at least according to some of the people who saw it, its layout and antialiasing is even better than the Cocoa text ssytem we're using now. Should be fun.

<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for clearing that up Rick, I was wondering if you guys did some fancy hacking of your own to make OmniWeb look so great or if the Carbon implementation was lacking some functionality.

I don't know how you could make OmniWeb look any better than it already does, I think I'll probably just faint the first time I use OmniWeb 5.0

-matt

ratlater · Jun 18, 2002, 05:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D3k61:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
It's not a terrible invasion of privacy, but it is an invasion of privacy IMO. If you got new tires put on your car and the people at the shop changed all of the presets for your radio stations to stations they advertise on, you'd probably be pretty annoyed. Basically that's what happened here. I installed an upgrade, like new tires, and when they were servicing my computer they saw fit to advertise for themselves by changing my home page.<hr /></blockquote>Your argument would make sense if the people at the shop were putting new tires on your car for free.

While I'm certainly not a fan of M$, complaining about having to spend 10 seconds changing your homepage back is beyond ridiculous... get a grip people.<hr /></blockquote>So your saying that because something is free all rules go out the window? Because IE is freeware they can have the installer delete all other web browsers on the system? I'm what's the big deal, it is free after all, and it'll only take 10 minutes to re-download OmniWeb, Mozilla, and Chimera.

My favorite part is M$ proclaiming the change of homepage is a feature you get by updating:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This latest version�� version 5.2�� provides all the latest security and performance enhancements for Internet Explorer�5 for Mac�OS�X and a new home page�� <a href="http://www.msn.com��" target="_blank">www.msn.com��</a> for Internet Explorer. It also provides support for the new Quartz� text smoothing feature provided in Mac�OS�X version�10.1.5 and later, so text on your screen is easier to read.<hr /></blockquote>That's taken from M$'s mactopia page. Gee, thanks M$ for this new homepage, before I couldn't use msn.com as my homepage. Give me a break.

-matt

Developer · Jun 18, 2002, 07:28 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:

[So your saying that because something is free all rules go out the window? Because IE is freeware they can have the installer delete all other web browsers on the system? I'm what's the big deal, it is free after all, and it'll only take 10 minutes to re-download OmniWeb, Mozilla, and Chimera.<hr /></blockquote>They didn't do that, did they?
If a company gives you a free ball pen, they don't have the right to destroy one of your old ones. But they sure have the right to print their company name onto it to promote their own stuff.
Same with Microsoft. They gave you a free gift, and it initially promotes their own site. The previous default start page (livepage.apple.com) now forwards to Netscape. What do you expect from them? To give away a free app that promotes a competitor with every new window you open?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My favorite part is M$ proclaiming the change of homepage is a feature you get by updating:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This latest version�� version 5.2�� provides all the latest security and performance enhancements for Internet Explorer�5 for Mac�OS�X and a new home page�� <a href="http://www.msn.com��" target="_blank">www.msn.com��</a> for Internet Explorer. It also provides support for the new Quartz� text smoothing feature provided in Mac�OS�X version�10.1.5 and later, so text on your screen is easier to read.<hr /></blockquote>That's taken from M$'s mactopia page. Gee, thanks M$ for this new homepage, before I couldn't use msn.com as my homepage. Give me a break.<hr /></blockquote>See, you knew it beforehand, so why did you install it if you don't like that? Nobody forced you to do the update. Not Microsoft, and not Apple's Software Update. You live in a free country and you have a free will. Then use it!

KaptainKaya · Jun 18, 2002, 09:29 AM

Wow, I never meant for this thread to get so out of hand...all I wanted was to let everyone know it was out and to post what their thoughts on the browser itself were, not people flaming each other over stupid stuff like resetting the homepage or quitting all apps to install IE. Oh well.

D3k61 · Jun 18, 2002, 09:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
So your saying that because something is free all rules go out the window? Because IE is freeware they can have the installer delete all other web browsers on the system? I'm what's the big deal, it is free after all, and it'll only take 10 minutes to re-download OmniWeb, Mozilla, and Chimera.<hr /></blockquote>No, I'm not saying "because something is free all rules go out the window"... how you came to that conclusion is beyond me. I'm saying that M$ has the right to advertise their free product that you willingly downloaded and installed.

JLL · Jun 18, 2002, 10:38 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
Same with Microsoft. They gave you a free gift, and it initially promotes their own site. The previous default start page (livepage.apple.com) now forwards to Netscape. What do you expect from them? To give away a free app that promotes a competitor with every new window you open?<hr /></blockquote>Previously IE used the setting in the Internet Prefpane, but is doesn't do that now. I don't mind that they changed the default page, but they could at least still look in the Internet prefs.

gorgonzola · Jun 18, 2002, 11:04 AM

After switching my default font to Lucida Grande in Mozilla and IE, I can't see any differences in the way it's rendering that text...what's different about IE's rendering compared to OW's?

Developer · Jun 18, 2002, 11:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gorgonzola:

After switching my default font to Lucida Grande in Mozilla and IE, I can't see any differences in the way it's rendering that text...what's different about IE's rendering compared to OW's?<hr /></blockquote>The QD->Quartz text lacks the typographical features of ATSUI and seems to use a different method (maybe the old smear by 1 Pixel) for synthesizing bold fonts.

Compare the 3 (QD->Quartz, ATUSI->Quartz, Cocoa->Quartz) with Apple Chancery to see the differences in the typographical features and with Geneva bold to see differences in synthesized bold.

el_humpo · Jun 18, 2002, 02:23 PM

Installer VISE is a piece. It looks bad and installs slowly. Why doesn't everyone use Apple's Installer.app?

MrBS · Jun 18, 2002, 02:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by el_humpo:
Installer VISE is a piece. It looks bad and installs slowly. Why doesn't everyone use Apple's Installer.app?<hr /></blockquote>Does Installer.app let you change the system prefs?
~BS

KaptainKaya · Jun 18, 2002, 02:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by el_humpo:
Installer VISE is a piece. It looks bad and installs slowly. Why doesn't everyone use Apple's Installer.app?<hr /></blockquote>Sad thing is, the IE 5.1.4 update used it but 5.2 doesn't.

KidRed · Jun 18, 2002, 02:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TheMosco:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'd prefer a browser that respects open standards, even at the cost of making sites that use Microsnarf's "standards" look like crap.<hr /></blockquote>so if you go to <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/</a> in IE, it displays the navbar correctly. Most other others dont. Myabe IE is more complient then you think.<hr /></blockquote>IE doesn't highlight the menu items when the mouse is hovering above them - Mozilla does.<hr /></blockquote>Mozilla also has rendering probs on the nav box when scrolling up and down (it repeats itself-redraw issue)- IE doesn't. So there's always a trade off with any browser.

Developer · Jun 18, 2002, 03:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:

Does Installer.app let you change the system prefs?<hr /></blockquote>The IE 5.2 update did not change any system preferences.

ratlater · Jun 18, 2002, 03:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:

[So your saying that because something is free all rules go out the window? Because IE is freeware they can have the installer delete all other web browsers on the system? I'm what's the big deal, it is free after all, and it'll only take 10 minutes to re-download OmniWeb, Mozilla, and Chimera.<hr /></blockquote>They didn't do that, did they?
If a company gives you a free ball pen, they don't have the right to destroy one of your old ones. But they sure have the right to print their company name onto it to promote their own stuff.
Same with Microsoft. They gave you a free gift, and it initially promotes their own site. The previous default start page (livepage.apple.com) now forwards to Netscape. What do you expect from them? To give away a free app that promotes a competitor with every new window you open?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My favorite part is M$ proclaiming the change of homepage is a feature you get by updating:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This latest version�� version 5.2�� provides all the latest security and performance enhancements for Internet Explorer�5 for Mac�OS�X and a new home page�� <a href="http://www.msn.com��" target="_blank">www.msn.com��</a> for Internet Explorer. It also provides support for the new Quartz� text smoothing feature provided in Mac�OS�X version�10.1.5 and later, so text on your screen is easier to read.<hr /></blockquote>That's taken from M$'s mactopia page. Gee, thanks M$ for this new homepage, before I couldn't use msn.com as my homepage. Give me a break.<hr /></blockquote>See, you knew it beforehand, so why did you install it if you don't like that? Nobody forced you to do the update. Not Microsoft, and not Apple's Software Update. You live in a free country and you have a free will. Then use it!<hr /></blockquote>Your pen example would work if this were the first time I had ever downloaded and installed IE. If it were the first time IE was on the system then I would expect them to choose a homepage for me. The problem is I had already set a homepage, and updates should not change preferences that are already in place.

Also, I didn't know about the homepage changing because I direct downloaded from versiontracker. Yes, I should have read all about the update before installing, but I didn't expect it to muck around with my settings and just wanted to see if they made any improvements. And based on some testing and reading other people's thoughts it doesn't look like they did anything beyond security patches and enabling Quartz rendering. I'll stick with the companies and people that care about making quality products, namely the OmniGroup.

-matt

MrBS · Jun 18, 2002, 04:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:

Does Installer.app let you change the system prefs?<hr /></blockquote>The IE 5.2 update did not change any system preferences.<hr /></blockquote>System Preferences>Internet

Admitidly, I haven't installed IE, but the main issue of this thread has been them changing your Default Browser. If that's true, that's changing System Preferences. Unless I'm mistaken.
~BS

Developer · Jun 18, 2002, 04:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:

Does Installer.app let you change the system prefs?<hr /></blockquote>The IE 5.2 update did not change any system preferences.<hr /></blockquote>System Preferences>Internet

Admitidly, I haven't installed IE, but the main issue of this thread has been them changing your Default Browser. If that's true, that's changing System Preferences. Unless I'm mistaken.<hr /></blockquote>No, this update did not change the system preferences. Not the default browser and not the start page in the system preferences.

Usually system preferences looses track of OmniWeb if you trash it and install a newer version. I suspect some people didn't notice that until they checked after the IE update and attributed it to Microsoft.

Proudest Monkey · Jun 19, 2002, 05:35 PM

someone mentioned that IE 5.2 is a "boring upgrade" on paper, but when you unlock the hidden features its gets more exciting. so.... WHAT ARE THE HIDDEN FEATURES?????????????????

Moderator · Jun 19, 2002, 05:56 PM

Just upgraded....already hate the anti-aliased text..

it reminds me of a poorly designed Flash site..except now everything reads like that.

Proudest Monkey · Jun 19, 2002, 06:39 PM

damn M$ still hasn't fixed the most annoying bug in the world ... clicking on the IE icon in the dock always launches a new window. i hope i am just missing something in the prefs, but i've looked a couple of times and found nothing. Yup, just looked again, nothing.

Developer · Jun 19, 2002, 08:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Proudest Monkey:

damn M$ still hasn't fixed the most annoying bug in the world ... clicking on the IE icon in the dock always launches a new window. i hope i am just missing something in the prefs, but i've looked a couple of times and found nothing. Yup, just looked again, nothing.<hr /></blockquote>That's not a bug, it's a feature. Every app is required to do that by the Aqua HI guidelines.

Simon Mundy · Jun 19, 2002, 08:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Proudest Monkey:
damn M$ still hasn't fixed the most annoying bug in the world ... clicking on the IE icon in the dock always launches a new window. i hope i am just missing something in the prefs, but i've looked a couple of times and found nothing. Yup, just looked again, nothing.<hr /></blockquote>Preferences --> Interface Extras --> "When another app asks IE to go to a page" = Use the front browser window

Spheric Harlot · Jun 20, 2002, 09:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Proudest Monkey:

damn M$ still hasn't fixed the most annoying bug in the world ... clicking on the IE icon in the dock always launches a new window. i hope i am just missing something in the prefs, but i've looked a couple of times and found nothing. Yup, just looked again, nothing.<hr /></blockquote>That's not a bug, it's a feature. Every app is required to do that by the Aqua HI guidelines.<hr /></blockquote>NB: They are required to open a new window only if there is no window open already.

-s*

Developer · Jun 20, 2002, 09:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

NB: They are required to open a new window only if there is no window open already.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, and that's how Internet Explorer behaves.

ablaze · Jun 20, 2002, 09:59 AM

I just hit accidentally an "e" on the keyboard when I was surfing on <a href="http://www.kde.org," target="_blank">http://www.kde.org,</a> and I noticed, that IE 5.2 jumped to the first Link beginning with an "e". This is a nice feature. Don't know if this was also possible in pre�5.2 versions.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 20, 2002, 10:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

NB: They are required to open a new window only if there is no window open already.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, and that's how Internet Explorer behaves.<hr /></blockquote>Well, that's good then.

(I don't actually use IE myself, only *very* rarely, since nothing I've read on this thread has wakened an interest in switching from Omniweb.)

-s*

sandman · Jun 20, 2002, 01:19 PM

Check out <a href="http://www.bored.com" target="_blank">bored.com</a> . When scrolling down the scroll bar is redrawn over and over. Also, many, many shockwave/ flash games do not work such as Cubis. I'm not a big gamer, but it angers me when friends stop by and say, "No shockwave games work on your computer." Also, many java implementations do not work. For instance, an online Princeton review course will not properly work in any browser on OS X. I find it quite sad that I have to boot into OS 9 to browse a certain web page (it does not work in Classic mode either).

Boondoggle · Jun 20, 2002, 09:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't know how you could make OmniWeb look any better than it already does, I think I'll probably just faint the first time I use OmniWeb 5.0

-matt
<hr /></blockquote>I think I might die of old age before I get the chance to faint....

Homer1946 · Jun 20, 2002, 10:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As for the start page: A company makes you a gift and promotes its own stuff with it. What's the problem? If you don't like it you just change it back (or just don't update. Versiontracker mentioned it).<hr /></blockquote>I will chime in. One of the advantages of OS X it the fact that it allows you to do mulitple things at once, like running an install while you have some free time while the processor is doing something else. For MS to require quitting all applications violates that principle and it bad form. To excuse this is making excuses for all sorts of bad decisions. I mean, why not have to wait until a program completely launches before you can do anything else, it doesn't take too long to launch a program, why not require a restart after every install (whether it is really neccessary or not), after all, you are taking time out to do an install, you could always wait until later of just not install the software, ect....

Also, IE is not a free Web Browser. It is owed to Apple and to Mac Users as part of an aggreement between MS and Apple and is, for all intents and purposes, Apple's official system supplied web browser. We are in the right to judge it firmly.

-R

[ 06-20-2002, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Homer1946 ]