[mixin visuals]

what do you think with some of the new volkswagen moves.

many thought the phaeton wouldn't be accepted as a luxury car coming from volkswagen, but the new Volkswagen Concept C is gonna hit the mark for real i think.

just check out the hot new convertible action

think this would be a hit? or think volkswagen is a flop?

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:


what do you think with some of the new volkswagen moves.

many thought the phaeton wouldn't be accepted as a luxury car coming from volkswagen, but the new Volkswagen Concept C is gonna hit the mark for real i think.

just check out the hot new convertible action

think this would be a hit? or think volkswagen is a flop?

It's a fashion accessory car - like the 307CC and the Megane.

VW have seriously lost the plot - the new Golf has had a very cool reception, apparently dealers are offering discounts already. The Phaeton - well, that'll be the 'Peoples Car' for people who have �50K lying aroung.

[mixin visuals]

people are making much more money now. how do you think vw has lost the plot?

[Spheric Harlot]

If Volkswagen is gonna keep repositioning its newer models in the traditional Audi market segment, who's gonna buy either and why?

-s*

[mixin visuals]

people that want to buy high quality cars?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:
people that want to buy high quality cars...

...buy Audi.

VW's traditional best-seller, the Golf, isn't. They added free air conditioning, and they're still not selling.

I dunno, but VW's original concept is an everyday-for-everyone car, affordable and durable.

No?

[qnxde]

I want the new GS430. **** that's a nice car.

[The Placid Casual]

Hmmm. Saw my first 'new' golf yesterday and was really unimpressed.

Bland, stodgy, and NO GTI until 2005/06!! Bad move right there.

[Eriamjh]

A hardtop convertible that folds into the trunk? That is SO 1957 Ford Skyliner.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I dunno, but VW's original concept is an everyday-for-everyone car, affordable and durable.

Problem being that they aren't afordable anymore. Gah ! Don't get me started on VAG. I really fscking hate the cars they make, all of them. And how many Phaetons do you see in a day ? About zero. I've seen a grand total of 3 or 4 Phaetons since they were released. It's a joke. (The Toureg is selling tough.. and that awful Porsche Cayenne even better).

[gorickey]

Does this VW model come with a nice VW emblem bigger then most standard hubbcaps on the front grill?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Problem being that they aren't afordable anymore. Gah ! Don't get me started on VAG. I really fscking hate the cars they make, all of them. And how many Phaetons do you see in a day ? About zero. I've seen a grand total of 3 or 4 Phaetons since they were released.

They're not affordable anymore. That was exactly my point.

That said, their cars are really nice, IMO. I like this cabriolet, too. And I see quite a few Phaetons out and about - though probably not half as many as what-used-to-be-a-"volks"-wagen would like (I hear they're magnificent cars).

And the HUGE ****ING LOGO they stick everywhere on their cars probably isn't helping things, by reminding people that they're spending top dollar for a high-quality car with a low-budget image.

-s*

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:
people are making much more money now. how do you think vw has lost the plot?

What?

Much more money now?

greg

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:
people are making much more money now.

qualify that: the people who used to buy VWs because they were cheap are making much more money now.

People who *would* buy VWs because they are cheap are making just as little - or less - money as those mentioned above did when they bought VWs when they actually were cheap.

-s*

[Vader�s Pinch of Death]

Very nice! VW are great cars. Better then any American Crap.

[engaged]

As someone else pointed out earlier - just exactly who is going to buy the Phaeton?! I sat in one a few months ago while my wife was dropping her Passat off for a service, and was most underwhelmed; build certainly wasn't anything special.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by engaged:
As someone else pointed out earlier - just exactly who is going to buy the Phaeton?! I sat in one a few months ago while my wife was dropping her Passat off for a service, and was most underwhelmed; build certainly wasn't anything special.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

It doesn't LOOK like anything special from the outside; that's true.

The people I've talked to who've ridden/driven one are unanimous: It is an exquisite, a truly marvellous car, well worth the price tag.

It's just the huge VW logo that doesn't jive with the rest of the experience.

-s*

[engaged]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I'm afraid you're wrong.

It doesn't LOOK like anything special from the outside; that's true.

The people I've talked to who've ridden/driven one are unanimous: It is an exquisite, a truly marvellous car, well worth the price tag.

It's just the huge VW logo that doesn't jive with the rest of the experience.

-s*

Fair enough - you've got friends that have driven it, and are duly impressed. All I stated was that, in my opinion, I expected better interior build quality - maybe it has improved as production has ramped up at the new plant they'be built. (Meant to say interior build in my earlier post.)

Earlier in this thread you brought up the point about VW selling in what has been, until now, Audi territory. I do find it interesting - all the 'branding' in the VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) which in Europe comprises more brands than I think you see in the US; VW, Audi, Skoda and Seat.

[angelmb]

VW ---> Volvo Wannabe

[daimoni]

.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by daimoni:
What. In the hell. Do you mean by that?

The problem with VW is that they're so big now and they've put their marque between a rock and a hard place. Same as the Audi marque. Meanwhile it seems like they've positioned Skoda and Seat as the people's car replacement.

Yes, that appears to be what's happening, except that Seat seems to be going the "temperamental sporty Southern European" route.

Skoda is being sold as "wow, that design for what a price!"

That kind of leaves VW out in the cold.

The Phaeton isn't helping (or selling, I believe).

-s*

[Spliff]

Too bad Volkswagen can't build a reliable car. I really like the Jetta: the way it looks inside and out, and the way it drives.

But every mechanic I've talked to (at least a dozen) tells me to stay away from Volkswagen. Their brakes last maybe a year at most. They have electrical problems. Etc., etc., etc. I've talked to few few Volkswagen owners and they say the same thing. They love the way the car drives, but it's always going into the shop for something.

How many years have they been making cars? You think they would've got it right by now.

[ambush]

I want *square* VW....


Like the 1992 passat, golf

1995 golf/jettas WERE SO ELITE compared to the **** they have now

[cenutrio]

The new Megane is killing the Golf niche.


French and Italian manufacturers have invested a lot and are very close to German built quality.

[daimoni]

.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Spliff:
Too bad Volkswagen can't build a reliable car. I really like the Jetta: the way it looks inside and out, and the way it drives.

But every mechanic I've talked to (at least a dozen) tells me to stay away from Volkswagen. Their brakes last maybe a year at most. They have electrical problems. Etc., etc., etc. I've talked to few few Volkswagen owners and they say the same thing. They love the way the car drives, but it's always going into the shop for something.

How many years have they been making cars? You think they would've got it right by now.

That's odd. I bought a new VW Fox in 1989, drove it for over 200,000 miles in 11 years, and I replaced the brakes once, at 95K. It still had the original clutch, the engine and trans had never been repaired, despite once driving over 50 miles, on the freeway, with only 1 quart of oil in it (I drove it another 60,000 miles after that). I put one pair of struts/shocks on it, and a couple of sets of tires, a starter, and a couple of batteries, and that's it.

I owned an '82 Rabbit diesel for 8 years, drove it for 245,000 miles, with the same type of repairs; it was still getting 45mpg when I drove it in for a trade. I was just tired of it.

I owned an '86 Golf diesel, drove it for 4 years, with 175,000 on the odo when I traded it in. No major repairs on that one either.

Mechanics also see only cars with troubles; if you go to a Chevy dealer, you'll see a shop full of Chevys. Does that mean you shouldn't buy a Chevy? Well......maybe that was a bad example!

My next car may well be a VW, probably a diesel.

[frido:mac]

Hello!

I�ve driven a friends new golf 5 when we picked it up from the dealer 2 weeks ago (it was a 140 hp TDI), it drives really nice, but the dashboard is cheaper than the Golf 4�s and the factory CD stereo is horrible... but my main gripe is the price: EUR 26,000 ($32,000) for a Golf without much accessories (beside manual climate control, Winter tyres and winter package) is WAY too much! (and that is coming from someone who drives a EUR 30K compact car, an Audi A2). I think VW has seriously gotten too expensive...

Bye, Frido.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Spliff:
Too bad Volkswagen can't build a reliable car. I really like the Jetta: the way it looks inside and out, and the way it drives.

But every mechanic I've talked to (at least a dozen) tells me to stay away from Volkswagen. Their brakes last maybe a year at most. They have electrical problems. Etc., etc., etc. I've talked to few few Volkswagen owners and they say the same thing. They love the way the car drives, but it's always going into the shop for something.

How many years have they been making cars? You think they would've got it right by now.

I don't think that unreliability can be raised at VW whilst keeping a straight face...

Some of their models really are indestructible.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by frido:mac:
Hello!

I�ve driven a friends new golf 5 when we picked it up from the dealer 2 weeks ago (it was a 140 hp TDI), it drives really nice, but the dashboard is cheaper than the Golf 4�s and the factory CD stereo is horrible... but my main gripe is the price: EUR 26,000 ($32,000) for a Golf without much accessories (beside manual climate control, Winter tyres and winter package) is WAY too much! (and that is coming from someone who drives a EUR 30K compact car, an Audi A2). I think VW has seriously gotten too expensive...

Bye, Frido.

I agree, price is now an issue. The VFM aspect has gone, and without a GTI to rely on as yet, the cool aspect has gone too.

When people say golf, many automatically think of the Mk1 GTI model. It is iconic. I think sales will pick up when hotter models hit the streets... There are a lot of people who just upgrade from Golf GTI to GTI...

I know I am still more than satisfied with my 1996 GTI...

[villalobos]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:
people that want to buy high quality cars?

So you consider VW as 'high quality' cars? Fun to drive, maybe. But high quality certainly not.

villa

[villalobos]

Originally posted by KarlG:
That's odd. I bought a new VW Fox in 1989, drove it for over 200,000 miles in 11 years, and I replaced the brakes once, at 95K. It still had the original clutch, the engine and trans had never been repaired, despite once driving over 50 miles, on the freeway, with only 1 quart of oil in it (I drove it another 60,000 miles after that). I put one pair of struts/shocks on it, and a couple of sets of tires, a starter, and a couple of batteries, and that's it.

I owned an '82 Rabbit diesel for 8 years, drove it for 245,000 miles, with the same type of repairs; it was still getting 45mpg when I drove it in for a trade. I was just tired of it.

I owned an '86 Golf diesel, drove it for 4 years, with 175,000 on the odo when I traded it in. No major repairs on that one either.

Mechanics also see only cars with troubles; if you go to a Chevy dealer, you'll see a shop full of Chevys. Does that mean you shouldn't buy a Chevy? Well......maybe that was a bad example!

My next car may well be a VW, probably a diesel.

That's precisely the point here. Newer VWs are terrible. TERRIBLE. VW used to make practical fun-to-drive reliable cars. The quality has gone down the sink in the recent years (especially for the Golfs and Jettas in the Mark IV platform).
But yeah, in spite of that I still love my golf.

villa

[CaseCom]

We own a 2001 Jetta GLS. We like the car, it's fun to drive, nice interior, get a lot of use out of the sunroof. But, about a year ago the front brakes were completely shot. Metal on metal. Had to have the pads and rotors replaced. On a two-year-old car. Maybe the calipers got stuck at some point, don't know. Now, it appears to be slowly leaking windshield washer fluid, of all things.

A friend of a friend bought a new Jetta VR6 a few years back. Loved driving it, but recurring electrical problems drove her nuts. She sold it after about two years.

Last year to replace my Honda Civic I went shopping for a wagon, something with room on the inside but not too big on the outside. Narrowed it down to a Passat GLX wagon ($29K) vs. Subaru Forester XS Premium ($24K). I liked them both, but I ended up going with the Forester for price and for reliability. I don't regret it.

VW is kind of boxed in here in the U.S. The models they rolled out in 98-99 we innovative in part for incorporating semi-luxury touches (soft-touch surfaces, grab handles that slowly retract instead of snapping back), but their competitors are catching up with them on this, and they remain at a price disadvantage with many of their competitors. Plus about any reputable consumer survey shows reliablity problems with the Golf and Jetta.

I like VW, but their next-gen Golfs, Jettas and Passats needed to hit the streets this year, not 2005 or 2006. The Passat wagon has been popular over here because about their only serious competition in the U.S. is Subaru's Legacy/Outback. When the next-gen Legacy/Outback hits the streets this summer with a much-improved interior, it's going to take a big chunk out of Passat wagon sales.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally posted by villalobos:
That's precisely the point here. Newer VWs are terrible. TERRIBLE. VW used to make practical fun-to-drive reliable cars. The quality has gone down the sink in the recent years (especially for the Golfs and Jettas in the Mark IV platform).
But yeah, in spite of that I still love my golf.

villa

Not true. Mid-90s Passats and Jettas had terrible electrical problems. They were/are infamous for it.

greg

[Eriamjh]

I had a '98 Beetle that was a piece of Sheisse. Sold it and bought a '77 Lincoln.

[ASIMO]

It appears that German car makers are really missing the mark of late (meaning '90s onward), quality-wise. Are the two biggest offenders not VW and MB?

[jld]

I love my VWs. I used to have a '70 baja beetle, and now I've got and '86 gti g60. They're the most fun cars for the money, IMO.

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by mixin visuals:


what do you think with some of the new volkswagen moves.

many thought the phaeton wouldn't be accepted as a luxury car coming from volkswagen, but the new Volkswagen Concept C is gonna hit the mark for real i think.

just check out the hot new convertible action

think this would be a hit? or think volkswagen is a flop?

Volkswagen will become a has-been if they don't fix that fuel system defect soon.

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by ASIMO:
It appears that German car makers are really missing the mark of late (meaning '90s onward), quality-wise. Are the two biggest offenders not VW and MB?

Yup, according to Consumer Reports they are.

Back in another era, you ruled if you had a VW or a Mercedes, or BMW.

Now only BMW seems to be making reliable cars from Germany, and their new 7-series is having loads of problems. So is the X5.

[kk]

I have a 1983 VW Rabbit and it's still going strong. These things are little tanks. They are cheap on gas, sturdy, great at holding their own in a heavy rainstorm -- I don't know why they ever stopped making them. And of course there are no computer chips to go wrong - and no airbags to squash the dog or whatever.

It does have air conditioning (& yes, everything still works) & radio, tapedeck etc.

It's always fun to arrive in Los Angeles and see VW Rabbits zooming around everywhere - and they haven't even made this car for at least 12 years or so.

Am sorry to hear the Golf isn't doing so well - I always thought of it as an eventual upgrade, a sort of big brother to the Rabbit.

[Spliffdaddy]

Your VW Rabbit's future ailments...

CV joints

Fuel pump (Bosch Jetronic...when the fuse blows, buy another pump asap)

Motor mounts (all of 'em)

Shift lever bushings.

Upper strut bushings (klunk, klunk).

Parking brake lever ratchet mechanism.

[benb]

I think the R32 looks fun. A bit pricey, but fun. And were getting 5,000 here in the states. But, for $30,000 I can think of other cars I would buy first.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by benb:
I think the R32 looks fun. A bit pricey, but fun. And were getting 5,000 here in the states. But, for $30,000 I can think of other cars I would buy first.

I have driven the R32 a fair bit... it's an awesome car! Great fun to drive, and with enough power to have some real fun.

Shame it is hitting the US 8 months late

However, even if it were cheaper, I would still buy another Renault Sport Clio 182... (Don't know if you have them in the States).

[shunt]

96 Golf GL, plain jane with 221,000 miles on still runs like a top. On my fourth set of tires, never put a penny into it except regular maintenance and normal wear stuff (clutch, brakes, etc.) I do my own work anyways and parts are dirt cheap.

Made on a wednesday

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by kk:
I have a 1983 VW Rabbit and it's still going strong. These things are little tanks. They are cheap on gas, sturdy, great at holding their own in a heavy rainstorm -- I don't know why they ever stopped making them. And of course there are no computer chips to go wrong - and no airbags to squash the dog or whatever.

It does have air conditioning (& yes, everything still works) & radio, tapedeck etc.

It's always fun to arrive in Los Angeles and see VW Rabbits zooming around everywhere - and they haven't even made this car for at least 12 years or so.

Am sorry to hear the Golf isn't doing so well - I always thought of it as an eventual upgrade, a sort of big brother to the Rabbit.

Rabbits and Golfs are the same car. When VW brought out the Golf in '74 they didn't think Americans would go for the name so they called it the Rabbit in North America, the Golf everywhere else ... Then in '84 or '85 they started calling it the Golf here too.

[angelmb]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
Some of their models really are indestructible.

indestructible?, again, Volvo Wannabe, indestructible means e.g. Volvo 200 series

[AutoJC]

Originally posted by daimoni:
I wish we had the Megane available here in the States.

I like the Vel Satis myself.

In the states, it would be built and powered by Nissan, so what the heck?

[AutoJC]

Renaults could easily be adapted to American drivng routines.

The current crop is borrowing more and more from its alliance with Nissan.

Already some Laguna and Vel Satis models are powered with Nissan drivetrains. Some models are being built in mexico, so they're only a stone's throw away.

In the states, Renault needs badly to improve upon its image as a car that one can't get fixed or serviced. Sharing common refernce platforms with Nissan cars (the Megane is on the Tsuru/Sentra platform, I think) will go a long way to making the car feasible in America.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Mechanics also see only cars with troubles; if you go to a Chevy dealer, you'll see a shop full of Chevys. Does that mean you shouldn't buy a Chevy? Well......maybe that was a bad example!

Well, if the mechanic sees one brand of car where the same cars keep coming back to the shop way more often than other brands, then I would trust the mechanic... :/

Kind of like which takes less time to fix - the general public may not believe it, but ask a tech support guy who services both Macs and PC's which takes him longer to fix if it's F'ed up!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by AutoJC:
Renaults could easily be adapted to American drivng routines.

The current crop is borrowing more and more from its alliance with Nissan.

Already some Laguna and Vel Satis models are powered with Nissan drivetrains. Some models are being built in mexico, so they're only a stone's throw away.

In the states, Renault needs badly to improve upon its image as a car that one can't get fixed or serviced. Sharing common refernce platforms with Nissan cars (the Megane is on the Tsuru/Sentra platform, I think) will go a long way to making the car feasible in America.

That, and never mentioning its country of origin.

I'm curious about some of the comments that seem to bash Audi. My partner just bought a 2001 A6 Quattro. I think its lovely.

[CaseCom]

Shoulda thought to post this earlier:

VW Says Profit Fell 57% in '03, Forecasts 'Lousy' First Quarter

By CHRIS REITER and NEAL E. BOUDETTE
Staff Reporters of the Wall Street Journal

March_9,_2004_8:59_p.m.

Hampered by the weak dollar, a U.S. price war and troubles at its core brand, Volkswagen AG reported a 57% drop in net profit for 2003 and said it expects a "lousy" first quarter.

The world's fourth-largest auto maker by unit sales blamed sluggish demand in Europe and rising price competition in other regions of the world for its first-quarter outlook. It is hoping for a rebound in the rest of 2004, in part because of accelerated cost-cutting programs that Volkswagen thinks can save it �4 billion ($5 billion) over the next two years, �2 billion more than it had previously envisioned.

Also Tuesday, Chief Executive Bernd Pischetsrieder said Volkswagen would offer incentives in the U.S. of about $2,000 per car. For months, Mr. Pischetsrieder has insisted that Volkswagen wouldn't join General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. in an incentives war that has gutted auto profits in the U.S.

Analysts weren't sure that would have much of an impact because GM and Ford offer incentives valued at more than $4,000 per vehicle. So far this year, Volkswagen's U.S. sales have fallen 27%.

Speaking at a news conference at the company's headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany, Mr. Pischetsrieder said Volkswagen is counting on extra cost cuts to contribute to profit growth this year. But he acknowledged that increasing operating profit is "undoubtedly an ambitious goal" in view of the weak global economy and unfavorable exchange rates.

Analysts are skeptical of the cost-cutting plan. Increasing profit in 2004 "is a bit of a stretch," said Stephen Cheetham at Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. in London. The cost-reduction measures, which don't include any layoffs, plant closings or major changes to vehicle-development programs, "are pretty tame stuff," Mr. Cheetham added. "I can't imagine they'll be able to cut costs enough so quickly, so I'm pretty gloomy."

Volkswagen's troubles underscore the difficulties facing most car makers around the world. Just a few years ago, Volkswagen was racking up profits and market share with cars such as the New Beetle and the sporty Jetta sedan. A bid to add luxury models under the Volkswagen brand has increased costs without pumping up sales or profits so far.

At the news conference, Volkswagen detailed its 2003 results. Net profit fell to �1.1 billion ($1.36 billion) from �2.6 billion in 2002. Revenue was flat at �87.2 billion, while operating profit fell 62% to �1.8 billion.

The breakdown of earnings by division highlighted two trouble spots: the core Volkswagen brand and North America.

In 2003, the group comprising its Volkswagen, Skoda, Bentley and Bugatti brands incurred an operating loss of �62 million, as a result of �711 million in restructuring and other charges. A year earlier, the group had �2.5 billion in operating profit.

The trouble was most acute in the fourth quarter, when �591 million of the charges were booked and the Volkswagen-brand group had a loss of �330 million. Volkswagen has been counting on a boost from the launch of its redesigned Golf, its top-selling model. But so far, sales have been slow, and Volkswagen has had to offer free air conditioning and other incentives that eat into profits to lure buyers.

The Audi division, meanwhile, held its own, limiting its drop in operating profit to 11%.

The North American market also provided a big setback in 2003. Due to the declining dollar and a bitter price war in the U.S., Volkswagen's North American operations, which include the Volkswagen and Audi brands, had a loss of �99 million last year. A year earlier, the operations rang up operating profit of �1.3 billion.

Volkswagen has little hope of turning things around quickly in the U.S., either. The company hasn't any new models coming out in North America this year, because the new Golf won't be in U.S. dealerships until 2005.

Giving only a broad outline of the cost-cutting effort, Mr. Pischetsrieder said Volkswagen would speed efforts to reduce purchasing, parts, production, development and other costs. He offered few concrete details, but said the company plans to trim about 5,000 jobs from its world-wide work force of 337,000 through early retirements and attrition. Between 2,000 and 2,500 of those jobs would be eliminated in Germany, where labor costs are high.

In Frankfurt trading, Volkswagen shares fell �1.25, or 3.2%, to �38.15.