[PHoynak]

I read the novel before I saw the movie. What was left out of the movie is that the Senate was filled with a lot of the Emperor's cronies by the time he takes total control....so of course they would seemingly give him this power easily.

[besson3c]

Budster:

Do you have a problem with Walmart? The big American beer companies? The big American media outlets? McDonalds? GM? Or, do you also boycott them all?

I'm just curious, what makes Lucas different than these other big companies created out of capitalism?

[willed]

Jesus. That was so bad.

I tried to like it, I really did. I love The Empire Strikes Back and this had been garnering positive comparisons with that movie, but most of my excitement evaporated throughout the movie.

Just seen it. Most of what were evidently supposed to be 'poignant' bits elicited laughs from the whole audience - and this was the sort of audience that cheered when the words 'Star Wars' first appeared on the screen. Special effects and fights were great (apart from Palpatine after he got electric shocked - that was hilarious), but the dialogue was absolutely terrible. It amazes me how Lucas can get away with that **** again and again.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by willed

Jesus. That was so bad.

I tried to like it, I really did. I love The Empire Strikes Back and this had been garnering positive comparisons with that movie, but most of my excitement evaporated throughout the movie.

Just seen it. Most of what were evidently supposed to be 'poignant' bits elicited laughs from the whole audience - and this was the sort of audience that cheered when the words 'Star Wars' first appeared on the screen. Special effects and fights were great (apart from Palpatine after he got electric shocked - that was hilarious), but the dialogue was absolutely terrible. It amazes me how Lucas can get away with that **** again and again.

I agree that the dialog wasn't stellar, but do you really think that the dialog in the original Star Wars trilogy was any better? When was the last time you sat down and watched these through the lens of a critical adult (as you are now)?

[Eug Wanker]

The original Star Wars was cheesy in some parts (and I watched it just a couple of months ago again), but not as cheesy as parts of this one. Many people (including me) laughed out loud at the melodramatic parts. I thought Palpatine's stuff was great though. And like I said, Yoda just rocked.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree that the dialog wasn't stellar, but do you really think that the dialog in the original Star Wars trilogy was any better? When was the last time you sat down and watched these through the lens of a critical adult (as you are now)?

Personally, I think this movie had some of the best dialogue of the six. In particular, I didn't find any of the love scenes cringe-worthy, which is more than I can say about Episode II. There were obviously flaws, but this was a great movie all things considered.

That being said, Yoda's suggestions about where to hide the children were completely ridiculous.

[Ghoser777]

What I still can't figure out is how Padme dies giving birth and Leia has memories of her mom being sad all the time. Did she watch holograms of her mother or something?

[Randman]

Name one of the six that did have good dialogue.

[MrForgetable]

"i'm pregnant"
:long pause and a W T F DID I DO face on Anakin:
"t-that's wonderful. this child is a blessing."

best acting. evar.

[Ryan1524]

^he must've drawn it from personal experience.

[d.fine]

Originally Posted by Randman

Just got back from seeing it and I am very happy. I'd go see it again in a second and I couldn't say that about the other two (I saw the original SW when I was 10). It made me want to stick Episode 4 in the DVD player as soon as I got home.

I did, watched right when I got home!

But I loved EP3 as well, found it to be the best EP, and would go back to watch it again, more than once!

[willed]

Originally Posted by Randman

Name one of the six that did have good dialogue.

I'll admit that the dialogue has never been the thing to watch a Star-Wars movie for; but the characters in the old ones had just that: character. There was real banter between Hans Solo and Leia; Luke was supposed to be young and stupid in the first one, but gradually matured; there were characters we cared about and who developed over the course of the three movies.

In this one, there is no connection between Anakin and Padme. I just cringed at the first 'love' scene - "you're so beautiful"... "oh stop it!" - the whole audience was laughing or grimacing. And all the rest were no better. This is partly because the guy who played Anakin can't act. He's like an annoyed teenager throughout. While this was understandable in the previous film, I thought in this one he was supposed to turn into the cool, calculating, evil Lord Vader in this one, not some stupid teenager who has hissy fits and tantrums all the time when he doesn't get his way.

I know saying 'the dialogue was terrible' sounds to some like a minor point for a Star Wars film, but the point is that ultimately it's not all about the special effects and battles, it is as George Lucas says, about the story. Without good characters you can't make a gripping story, and you can't make characters without good dialogue and good acting. Episode III has neither of these. Therefore the characters, and the degree to which I care about them and the story, were diminished.

[Randman]

I dunno. I thought Obi-Wan was the star, especially in episode 3. MCGregor did an amazing job of making the role his while also channeling the spirit of Alec Guiness, and he didn't have much to work with.

[willed]

Originally Posted by Randman

I dunno. I thought Obi-Wan was the star, especially in episode 3. MCGregor did an amazing job of making the role his while also channeling the spirit of Alec Guiness, and he didn't have much to work with.

I agree - McGregor did well considering the adverse circumstances (i.e. The Script), but he and Palpatine could not hold the movie together on their own.

[Big Mac]

I saw the film tonight. . . I was not disappointed - of course, I was not disappointed by Episode II, either, so that definitely puts me outside geekdom consensus. I have to tentatively place ROTS in a dead heat with ROTJ, so that my ranking is TESB, ANH, ROTJ and ROTS, ATOC, TPM. I would really love to go back through the thread (the first page especially) to pick out the first posts to echo my sentiments, but I don't have the will to do so. Here are some of my thoughts:

*First of all, I have to say Millennium hit the nail on its head when days ago he suggested that the movie would miss a lot of key details provided by the novelization. I have not read the book yet, but my brother showed me the third comic, and even it reveals a number of omitted details.

*I suppose many of us laughed at what should have been a dramatic scene - Vader's exclamation. It should have been played far more subtly. I would have preferred to see him fall on one knee and bow his head, while hearing only his breathing. And it may have been over the top, but it would have been satisfying for Vader to choke the Emperor for a few seconds, in order to display his potential supremacy over his master and to foreshadow (aftershadow?) Vader's ultimate destiny.

*Even more laughable than the Vader exclamation was Palpatine's voice shift during the altercation with Mace. Meekly: I told you the Jedi would betray me, help me my boy. Sinisterly: No, I won't let you, ultimate power! I had to crack up over that one.

*The poster who said that Anakin's abrupt transition to the dark side could be explained by his behavior in the previous films is partially correct, IMO. The poster who wrote that the Anakin had no choice but to join Palpatine after his betrayal of Windu also has the partial answer. And I do like the theory that the emperor was able to influence Anakin the rest of the way once the door was open by his internally conflicted psyche. Those explanations serve to rationalize Lucas' treatment about 80-90% of the way. Nonetheless, it still felt as if Anakin fell to the dark side too quickly.

*I think part of the problem we have with the transformation is that Anakin was never shown to be the purely or mostly good person he was billed as. ATOC showed us a petulant little bitch - "He's holding me back!" Now if Anakin had shown himself to be more noble in the previous episode, the transformation would have been more dramatic.

*There was a lot to pack into ROTS, so I can't blame Lucas for rushed pacing. There is a delicate balance to be achieved in pacing a film. The fact is, it's probably for the best that the action came at a furious pace, given Lucas' obvious deficiencies in dramatic and interpersonal direction.

*It would have been nice to see Yoda get in a glancing blow with his miniature saber when he fought Palpatine. The encounter does show that Mace was superior with the saber, while Yoda was the highest master of the Force. And at 900 years, fought he well. . .

*I'll have to pick up the novelization at some point, but does anyone know if Anakin explicitly accuses Padmé of adultery in the novel? He sees Obi, says she brought him with her and begins to choke her, so the subtext is definitely there. Who knows, perhaps direct treatment of that subject would have pushed the film over to an R rating, but if Elastic Girl was able to broach the subject with Mr. Incredible certainly Anakin could have had the same freedom. . . Now if Anakin had fallen to the dark side as a result of that kind of suspicion of Padmé, he would have gained more sympathy in my book. Not enough to overlook slaughtering children, but certainly a good amount more.

*Yoda's last minute instructions to Obi-Wan on Jedi communication with the Force beyond seemed a bit rushed, but that can be explained away by noting that they were rushed to get away from the Empire. However, a bit of a stretch it is, for me to believe that it took that long (in the course of a thousand year Jedi Order) for a Jedi apparition to finally contact another and impart that esoteric knowledge.

*My biggest issue with the film: So we're left to conclude that either Leia was recalling visions of Mrs. Organa or that the Force communicated that fleeting vision of Padmé after birth. In my view it was rather needless to have Padmé die in Episode III. Thanks a lot, George, she died of a broken heart? Palpatine still could have deceived Vader by telling him she had died. Rather than dying after childbirth, she could have gone into hiding on Alderaan, occasionally looking in on Leia, and perishing, unseen, with the destruction of the planet. Unless I'm missing something, Lucas really missed a great opportunity to create a profound denouement. . .

An Aside On ROTJ: Yoda and the other masters failed to overcome Palpatine, so how could he have held out any expectation that the poorly trained Luke would succeed in his stead?

Despite my questions and critiques, we really could not have expected much more from ROTS. Lucas should have let a group of super-nerds "beta test" it in order to address some of our concerns. . . As if that would ever happen. VGJ, GL - not terrific, but very good.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I saw the film tonight. . . I was not disappointed - of course, I was not disappointed by Episode II, either, so that definitely puts me outside geekdom consensus. I have to tentatively place ROTS in a dead heat with ROTJ, so that my ranking is TESB, ANH, ROTJ and ROTS, ATOC, TPM.

Agreed.

An Aside On ROTJ: Yoda and the other masters failed to overcome Palpatine, so how could he have held out any expectation that the poorly trained Luke would succeed in his stead?

Well, don't forget that Mace had Palpatine beaten before Anakin interfered. At any rate, I think Yoda had no choice but to believe that Luke would fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One.

Despite my questions and critiques, we really could not have expected much more from ROTS.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Diggory Laycock]

I saw it on Thursday night - and watched it again (via the torrent) last night.

1 - Loved the visual theme - much more in tune with the 'later' films - lots of Imperial white starting to appear.

2 - I had a case of "LOTR Battle Sequence Syndrome" at certain points - (especially at the start) - There's so much detail going on in the background, that you can't help try to see it all - and end up scanning the screen, and not really watching the main action.

3 - (work with me on this one..) Padme dies not because of a broken heart - but because of sudden withdrawal of Jedi-Crack. Think about it - Anakin's love juice will be stuffed with Midichlorians, as will the twin foetuses - as soon as they're born, whammo - no more Midichlorians for you Padme. Sudden death. And that's why Jedis can't have children.

4 - No wonder Vader is so evil - he has to see the world through a VirtualBoy Game:



5 - Are all the clones called Cody?

[willed]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Lucas should have let a group of super-nerds "beta test" it in order to address some of our concerns. . . As if that would ever happen. VGJ, GL - not terrific, but very good.

I wish he'd have run it past an intelligent person and a decent script writer instead. The Daily Telegraph summed it up nicely when its header for its ROTS review was 'Critics vs fans'.

Well, at least the fans enjoyed it, and I guess that's the main thing.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Budster:

Do you have a problem with Walmart? The big American beer companies? The big American media outlets? McDonalds? GM? Or, do you also boycott them all?

I'm just curious, what makes Lucas different than these other big companies created out of capitalism?

What is your reading comprehension level?
I was using this argument against those supporting Lucas. The same people who defend Lucas are those out there boycotting Walmart.

I like Capitalism. Look at any of my posts. I've lost more jobs because I'm a conservative than I care to count, and it is because of hateful and mean spirited leftist idiots.

If a product is worth it, I'll say so, and if I believe it is just bull-marketing and no value, I'll say that as well. It's called freedom of speech. I think his last several movies lacked any value, and am saying so. Ok with you?

Also, I'm against the Budweiser employee being canned for drinking a Coors. (Pun intended).
That's just wrong. Is there something wrong with sampling the competition? No derailment attempt here, I'm being consistent after being attacked by a person that doesn't have his facts straight.

This has nothing to do with Lucas' politics for me. The movies just suck, and I'm shy of giving him any more of my money. "Star Wars" The longest toy commercial ever made.

I also railed against Microsoft and Gates, for making an inferior product that has taken over the world. Now that is evil.

Lata'

[dlefebvre]

I saw it last night. I was not disappointed, because I was expecting so much worse.
The story wraps it up nicely and it ties well to ep. IV. Great action scenes and special FX, It was entertaining. But...

The main problem is Lucas being God Almighty of the Star Wars universe. Nobody has the balls to tell him when he's wrong. The main difference between this trilogy and the previous one? On episode V and VI, he didn't direct and even if he wrote the story, someone else wrote the screenplay. If ep. III would have been produced by a decent studio they would have forced him to rewrite the dialogues. We are talking about B Movie grade dialogues. It was never a strong point of the 6 episodes but at least on ep. V and VI, there was a director to coach the actors.

Even if Lucas is a good technical director, ep. III is plagued by bad director's choices. Could the emperor have overacted just a little bit more? The scene where he's disfigured after his fight with Windu is straight out of a bad monster movie. It would have been more creepy and evil if he had stayed calm and in control instead of overacting evilness. I was expecting one of the 3 Stooges to poke him in the eye at any time.
The scenes between Anakin and Padme were horrendous. I would have expected better acting out of dead fishes. Natalie can act, but not in this movie. It's probably not her fault if she was not properly directed. Some directors can do miracles with actors. Lucas is not one of them.
Vader getting off the table with Frankeinsten moves and screaming «Nooooooooooooo»? After more than 100 years of movie making, it takes balls to pull that one off. We know George that you loved Frankeinsten as a kid, we get the reference without going to the extent of highlighting it with a bold marker while screaming at us to look at it.

Don't get me wrong, the whole story is great. It's just sad that so much efforts and money was spent on amazing art direction, cinematography and special effects while the acting and dialogue suffered. At least Ewan McGregor proved he's a great actor against all odds. As much as I loved ep. IV, V and VI while I was a kid, I guess I'm 20 years too old to really enjoyed this one.

[xi_hyperon]

Saw it today and enjoyed it for what it was: a Star Wars movie. I'm looking forward to watching episode IV again when I have the chance.

[budster101]

"Its interesting to note that the best of hte origional three episodes is widely regarded as being 'The Empire Strikes Back' and its also the only of the origional three episodes that had a ghost writer for the story (and it was directed by someone else). The Revenge of the Sithe is also known to have had a ghost writer, and it is also widely regarded as the best of the prequel trilogy - coincidence?"

From another forum.

[Big Mac]

budster, while GL was given writing credit for TESB, the screenplay credits went to Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan - TESB was not ghost written, it was written by two others.

Now has anyone given any thought to my alternate death scenario for Padmé? The more I think about it, I become increasingly convinced that my way was the far superior way to kill her off.

[dlefebvre]

The writing of Empire is officially credited as : George Lucas (story) Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan (screenplay). Amongst other things, Kasdan wrote; Raiders of the Lost Ark, Silverado, The Big Chill and The Bodygard (oh boy!)

The writing of Return of the Jedi is credited as : George Lucas (story and screenplay) and laurence Kasdan (screenplay)

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by budster101

"Its interesting to note that the best of hte origional three episodes is widely regarded as being 'The Empire Strikes Back' and its also the only of the origional three episodes that had a ghost writer for the story (and it was directed by someone else). The Revenge of the Sithe is also known to have had a ghost writer, and it is also widely regarded as the best of the prequel trilogy - coincidence?"

From another forum.

the entire general idea came from GL's mind. not the ghost writers.

ALSO... the first movie was my fav.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Agasthya

Natalie Portman needs to be nominated for the opposite of an Academy Award. She sucked badly.

Through no fault of her own, if you ask me. Even a good actress like Portman cannot survive in the airless vacuum of Lucas' script. She did about as well as one can do under the circumstances.

Overall, a very good movie. I was, however, TRULY appalled by the slaying of the Younglings. It was gratuitous, unnecessary. Better he should have dropped a ceiling on them so the bodies weren't visible later. Bah. It was not needed to establish Vader's evil, and I think it alienated the younger audience members to no good purpose.

Ian McDiarmid was fantastic as Palpatine/Sidious. But Jimmy Smits, while a wonderful TV star whom I love, simply doesn't know what to do with the role of Bail Organa.

The last twenty minutes seemed like a frantic effort to close all loopholes and tie up all loose ends, in characteristic Lucas fashion. Still, there remain lots of stupid inconsistencies like Leia's recollection of her mother.

I loved the story about Darth Plageis as told by Palpatine! Cool backstory!

Originally Posted by Randman

He doesn't die but he's only on screen for a few seconds and doesn't speak.

Eeeeennntt!!! I'm sorry, but you are not correct. He distinctly says, "Excuse me."

BTW, Hayden Christensen was much better than expected and did a good job. He's come a long way since the Little Orphan Ani that killed all those Tusken Raiders. Way to go!

Oh, and it's not true that Episode V was the only one not directed by Lucas. Richard Marquand directed Episode VI and Irwin Kershner directed Episode V, the rest by Lucas.

Interesting choice to have Obi-Wan leave Anakin to die after wasting him verbally. No effort to save his life and bring him to trial. Not terribly Jedi. It was devastatingly sad: "You were the Chosen One! I loved you! You were my brother!" Honestly, I was weeping as Anakin burst into flames. The whole crowd stared at me, but I was bawling.

[JoshKurtz]

(and I can't believe I actually remember he's a Gungan since I only saw Phantom Menace twice (once at theatres, once on HBO.

I remembered because of the Weird Al song, "And in the end some Gungans died, some ships blew up and some pilots fried.."
I thought Ep III was great. I got a little choked up throught the second half of the movie.

[Angus_D]

Well, I watched it this evening and I thought it was OK. Certainly not genius cinema and just downright awful in places.

Also, it's the first movie I've seen where I've really noticed the anti-piracy watermarking... Which I thought was lame and distracting. At least 3 times I noticed a weird half-second or so of red overlay in a distinctive pattern which seemed to register as something like a Rorschach ink blot, but I can't be sure (it was gone too quickly to really notice what it was).

Lame.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by selowitch

BTW, Hayden Christensen was much better than expected and did a good job. He's come a long way since the Little Orphan Ani that killed all those Tusken Raiders. Way to go!

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I forgot. He'll never be considered a great (or even good) actor, but Christensen did a much better job this time IMO. There were even a few moments where I thought he was downright charismatic. All thing's considered, I think he did about as well as he could. I was impressed.

Interesting choice to have Obi-Wan leave Anakin to die after wasting him verbally. No effort to save his life and bring him to trial. Not terribly Jedi. It was devastatingly sad: "You were the Chosen One! I loved you! You were my brother!" Honestly, I was weeping as Anakin burst into flames. The whole crowd stared at me, but I was bawling.

I think Lucas did a great job with that part. In this one movie, three Jedi were put in this same situation and all three did the "wrong" thing. Anakin executed Dooku even though he knew it was wrong. Mace would've killed Palpatine if Anakin hadn't stopped him. Finally, Obi-Wan left Anakin to die in the end. I think those scenes showed just how far the Jedi had fallen. Furthermore, notice how Anakin was in a different situation each time -- from murderer to defender to victim.

[willed]

Originally Posted by dlefebvre

I saw it last night. I was not disappointed, because I was expecting so much worse.
The story wraps it up nicely and it ties well to ep. IV. Great action scenes and special FX, It was entertaining. But...

The main problem is Lucas being God Almighty of the Star Wars universe. Nobody has the balls to tell him when he's wrong. The main difference between this trilogy and the previous one? On episode V and VI, he didn't direct and even if he wrote the story, someone else wrote the screenplay. If ep. III would have been produced by a decent studio they would have forced him to rewrite the dialogues. We are talking about B Movie grade dialogues. It was never a strong point of the 6 episodes but at least on ep. V and VI, there was a director to coach the actors.

Even if Lucas is a good technical director, ep. III is plagued by bad director's choices. Could the emperor have overacted just a little bit more? The scene where he's disfigured after his fight with Windu is straight out of a bad monster movie. It would have been more creepy and evil if he had stayed calm and in control instead of overacting evilness. I was expecting one of the 3 Stooges to poke him in the eye at any time.
The scenes between Anakin and Padme were horrendous. I would have expected better acting out of dead fishes. Natalie can act, but not in this movie. It's probably not her fault if she was not properly directed. Some directors can do miracles with actors. Lucas is not one of them.
Vader getting off the table with Frankeinsten moves and screaming «Nooooooooooooo»? After more than 100 years of movie making, it takes balls to pull that one off. We know George that you loved Frankeinsten as a kid, we get the reference without going to the extent of highlighting it with a bold marker while screaming at us to look at it.

Don't get me wrong, the whole story is great. It's just sad that so much efforts and money was spent on amazing art direction, cinematography and special effects while the acting and dialogue suffered. At least Ewan McGregor proved he's a great actor against all odds. As much as I loved ep. IV, V and VI while I was a kid, I guess I'm 20 years too old to really enjoyed this one.

Great review IMO.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by JoshKurtz

I thought Ep III was great. I got a little choked up throught the second half of the movie.

Me too. Maybe DVD will change it for me, but I thought it was a good movie.

Saying that, I can't watch either of the other two in sequence -- I watch the good parts only. It doesn't take long.

[Eriamjh]

I liked it. I won't repeat what was said about it here. Instead I offer a new question: Who the f*&ck was Sypho Dyas, the Jedi who "ordered" the clones in Episode II? Why did he order them? Why didn't anyone notice the HUGE charge on his Jedi credit card?

This was not explained at all.

[PlacidTubs]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

I liked it. I won't repeat what was said about it here. Instead I offer a new question: Who the f*&ck was Sypho Dyas, the Jedi who "ordered" the clones in Episode II? Why did he order them? Why didn't anyone notice the HUGE charge on his Jedi credit card?

This was not explained at all.

It was either Palpatine, or more likely, Dooku working under Palpatine. The clones were ordered to actually fit in with his plan of causing a war in order to rise to power, kill off the jedi and rule the galaxy. I thought this was pretty obvious.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by lavar78

I think Lucas did a great job with that part. In this one movie, three Jedi were put in this same situation and all three did the "wrong" thing. Anakin executed Dooku even though he knew it was wrong. Mace would've killed Palpatine if Anakin hadn't stopped him. Finally, Obi-Wan left Anakin to die in the end. I think those scenes showed just how far the Jedi had fallen. Furthermore, notice how Anakin was in a different situation each time -- from murderer to defender to victim.

I have to disagree with you here, lavar. The Jedi had not fallen, unless you wish to indulge in dark side porpaganda of the kind that led Anakin to his downfall. Anakin did the wrong thing, but his descent to the dark side was already well under way by the time he scissored Dooku. Mace's judgment was sound, as his suspicion of Anakin was well justified. Palpatine posed a grave threat to the galaxy, and he correctly decided that summary capital justice was necessitated. Obi-Wan felt grave misgivings over his duty to dispatch Anakin, whom he (apparently) loved like a brother. He simply could not bring himself to finish the job, even though that would have been more humane and far more expedient for the forces of good. In those three situations Anakin acted as murderer, accessory to murder and would-be murderer. Even when Anakin was placed in the position of victim, he showed no remorse but instead seethed with Sith "orange eye" hatred. I believe Lucas went to some trouble to indicate that fact to the audience, in order to partially account for Obi-Wan's final choice toward Anakin.

This line of discussion brings up a good point. The Jedi Order is benevolent and promulgates peaceful relations throughout the galaxy, but it is not a defenseless faith. Even Yoda, the highest Jedi in the "canon," is one of the strongest physical combatants. Yoda actually insists on the destruction of the Sith. If one is to posit that the Jedi fell in the prequels, where does that leave things in respect to the sequels? The council may have been too trusting of Anakin, but the legitimacy of their actions in response to his treachery must be defended.

[Ghoser777]

There were a couple cool self-fullfilling prophecies in the movies:

- Anakin's fear of losing Padme leads him to actions that cause Padme's death
- The Council's fear that Palpatine was influencing Anakin lead to Anakin being influenced by Palpatine

Maybe more...?

[MrForgetable]

I couldn't help but think of Oedipus the entire movie.. running into his fate rather than away from it.

[SamuraiDL]

friggen awesome!!!

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I have to disagree with you here, lavar. The Jedi had not fallen, unless you wish to indulge in dark side porpaganda of the kind that led Anakin to his downfall. Anakin did the wrong thing, but his descent to the dark side was already well under way by the time he scissored Dooku. Mace's judgment was sound, as his suspicion of Anakin was well justified. Palpatine posed a grave threat to the galaxy, and he correctly decided that summary capital justice was necessitated.

Oh, I completely agreed with Mace's decision, but my point was that it still goes against the Jedi way (at least according to Anakin). They may not have "fallen," but they screwed up in almost every way possible in the 3 prequels. They couldn't find the Sith Lord right under their noses, they allowed the "Chosen One" to be corrupted right before their eyes, and all but two of them were killed (among other things). Instead of being in control, they were flailing about and flying by the seats of their pants.

[selowitch]

I'm about to ramble again.

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

I liked it. I won't repeat what was said about it here. Instead I offer a new question: Who the f*&ck was Sypho Dyas, the Jedi who "ordered" the clones in Episode II? Why did he order them? Why didn't anyone notice the HUGE charge on his Jedi credit card? This was not explained at all.

Beautifully and humorously put. "Jedi credit card" indeed! Hah.

There are definitely some yawning plot holes Lucas has opened up and left bare, the worst of which is reconciling Padmé's early death with Leia's recollection of her in Episode VI.

LUKE: Leia ... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
LEIA: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
LUKE: What do you remember?
LEIA: Just ... images, really. Feelings.
LUKE: Tell me.
LEIA: She was very beautiful. Kind, but ... sad. Why are you asking me all this?
LUKE: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

Now, some have suggested that Leia mistakenly believes that Breha Organa, Bail's wife, is her real mother, which accounts for this snippet of dialogue. I don't buy it.

I've always thought it was odd that Leah and Luke right after that discuss Vader as being Luke's father, but the conversation never turns to the fact that it means Vader is [i[her[/i] father, too — the one who tortured her in Episode IV and presided over the destruction of her beloved planet of Alderaan.

I suppose one could argue that something in the Force prompts Vader to help Leia by holding her back from attacking Tarkin and hatching the plan to allow her to escape with the rest of the crew of the Millenium Falcon.

OFFICER: "She'll die before she tells you anything!"
VADER: "Leave that to me."
Was there unwitting pride in his voice when he said, "I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion"?

Originally Posted by PlacidTubs

It was either Palpatine, or more likely, Dooku working under Palpatine. The clones were ordered to actually fit in with his plan of causing a war in order to rise to power, kill off the jedi and rule the galaxy. I thought this was pretty obvious.

What a minute. It's clear the Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi Master who served on the council. There has to be more to that story, but they never explained it. Strange, given Lucas' penchant for overexplaining everything and leaving no loose ends.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Randman

Well, considering it is a thread on SW and for people who've seen it. Maybe you should start a thread on people who don't plan to see it and you can all bond. :

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by selowitch

What a minute. It's clear the Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi Master who served on the council. There has to be more to that story, but they never explained it. Strange, given Lucas' penchant for overexplaining everything and leaving no loose ends.

The supplemental materials serve to explain the rest of the story. The Episode III Visual Dictionary states:
"Dooku's turn to the dark side began with the murder of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, his former friend and confidant in the Order. Assuming control of the plans Sifo-Dyas had set in motion to create a clone army for the Republic, Dooku saw to it that all mention of the planet Kamino was erased from the Jedi Archives." Sifo-Dyas had surreptitiously commissioned the creation of the clone army on behalf of the Jedi and the Republic. Here is a good compilation of the Sifo-Dyas back story.

[Diggory Laycock]

General Grievous, what's going on there?

He has lungs (and a cough), but can survive in the vacuum of space.

hmmmm.....

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The supplemental materials serve to explain the rest of the story. The Episode III Visual Dictionary states:...

Supplemental, Schupplemental! The movies need to stand on their own. Lucas failed to explain it. I can conclude that Dooku and Palpy had something to do with it, but I am just guessing. The movie left this hole unexplained.

As for the Leia lines about her mother, she is simply mistaken. Her memories can be explained by vague images through the force.

Her mother being sad certainly applies. Sad enough to die at childbirth.

Oh, one more thing. Even though we have known Leia and Luke are brother and sister, their kissing in Empire seems even creepier to me now.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Diggory Laycock

General Grievous, what's going on there? He has lungs (and a cough), but can survive in the vacuum of space.

The explanation I heard was that the battle actually took place in the thin upper atmosphere of Coruscant, so it was possible for an organic being to survive a brief excursion outside the ship.

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

As for the Leia lines about her mother, she is simply mistaken. Her memories can be explained by vague images through the force. Her mother being sad certainly applies. Sad enough to die at childbirth.

Well, sure. Assuming your interpretation is correct, though, doesn't that make for an awfully weak subplot? I think that scene with Leia and Luke on Endor was very moving and important, but it really gets badly undermined by what we now know from Episode III.

As a fan, I find things like that frustrating.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by willed

While this was understandable in the previous film, I thought in this one he was supposed to turn into the cool, calculating, evil Lord Vader in this one, not some stupid teenager who has hissy fits and tantrums all the time when he doesn't get his way.

Vader a cool calculating evil guy? You're talking about the Vader who force chokes anybody who says anything bad about the force, disposes his senior officers when they screw up like they're made in a factory in China, and childishly insults his former master when they next meet calling him weak and an old man? Nope, the Vader of the classic trilogy still sounds like a whiney, I will always get my way teenager to me.

[Randman]

Anyone know why Dooku was a Count and not a Lord? I know in reality, it was in homage to Chris Lee's portrayal of Count Dracula but it was never explained in the movie. Also, was he a Sith? Yoda said always two Sith, never more, never less.
So, if he was a Sith, why didn't he have a Darth name? And how was he doing stuff when Darth Maul was around?

Finally, did anyone else realize that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One after all? He did bring balance to the Force, being good, then bad and finally good as he was the one who killed the Emperor, though a couple of decadent decades late.

Also, does that good action redeem his many bad ones? And, how does he become a spirit at the end of Jedi? He doesn't know how to (he was mystified by Obi-Wan's disappearance in Episode 4).

[Weyland-Yutani]

Dooku was Darth Tyrranus.

I liked this movie - ep. 3.

It was good.

cheers

W-Y

[Randman]

How could he be Darth Tyrranus if in Episode 1, there was Darth Sideous and Darth Maul?

[sminch]

terrible, terrible stuff.

crappy acting. awful dialogue. more melodrama than ever. plot holes. pointless scenes.

if it weren't for the action sequences it would have been a total writeoff, but even so i'd barely want to sit through it again if i was given a ticket for free (and it was a rainy thursday afternoon). why didn't we see more of the wookie army, dammit? and why does yoda remind me of a cross between my granny and my crotchety old cat? why did i laugh at the most poignant scenes? ah yes, that's right - they were bloody terrible. it wasn't even worth it as a chance to watch the lovely ms portman, mostly beacuse i was too busy cringing at her lines to watch the screen

when i have to honestly say that the best things were the title music and the noises the ships made in space, then i have to conclude that this was dire in the extreme. the ships do make cool noises though, don't they?

sminch

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Randman

How could he be Darth Tyrranus if in Episode 1, there was Darth Sideous and Darth Maul?

Easy. Dooku wasn't made Sidious' apprentice (and didn't gain the Sith Lord title) until Maul died. He probably was simply a Dark Jedi until then.

Originally Posted by Randman

Anyone know why Dooku was a Count and not a Lord?

It probably had something to do with his noble upbringing, unrelated to his later status as Sith Lord.

Originally Posted by Randman

Finally, did anyone else realize that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One after all? He did bring balance to the Force, being good, then bad and finally good as he was the one who killed the Emperor, though a couple of decadent decades late.

Sure. No offense, but you'd have to be pretty dense to miss that one.

Originally Posted by Randman

Also, does that good action redeem his many bad ones?

Not in my opinion, no.

Originally Posted by Randman

And, how does he become a spirit at the end of Jedi? He doesn't know how to (he was mystified by Obi-Wan's disappearance in Episode 4).

I agree it doesn't make much sense except to give us a sense of resolution. It was widely claimed that Lucas was going to "finally explain" why some Jedi disappear when they die and become ghosts while others do not. But he didn't.