Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Quran Burning by Floridian Church

Quran Burning by Floridian Church (Page 7)
Thread Tools
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2010, 11:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Of course, the other variable one must include in any question is "are there variables for this question, if so what are they, and are they valid?".

No, that's a bullshit, copout answer.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. People aren't going to ask you if there are variables every time, they more often than not are going to take what you say at face value, so the onus is on you to speak/write accurately if you want to persuade effectively and be treated seriously.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2010, 11:44 PM
 
Aw... NM.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2010, 11:46 PM
 
Doofy,

You argue that Muslims are required by their religion to attempt to conver the whole world to Islam. But this commandment does not appear in The Five Pillars (neither the Sunni or the Shi'ia version). As the acts contained in the Five Pillars are the only duties required of all Muslims I wonder where you got your idea that all Muslims are commanded to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam. Did you read about it in the Qur'an? What about in the Hadiths? Where did you read that a command/requirement/duty of a Muslim is to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam?
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2010, 11:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
No, that's a bullshit, copout answer.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. People aren't going to ask you if there are variables every time
When I'm talking about questions and answers, I wasn't talking about conversation between people - I was talking about the internal conversation with myself during discovery. If I were to translate that internal discovery process into the same thing during a conversation with you, this thread would be several thousand pages long. And you'd owe me a keyboard.
It simply isn't a concise process.
Hence, you get the short version - which looks black and white.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
they more often than not are going to take what you say at face value, so the onus is on you to speak/write accurately if you want to persuade effectively and be treated seriously.
I'm aware of my Cassandra syndrome. And I've grown to love popcorn.
But I'm not telling you to believe me, I'm telling you to go read and find out for yourself. Instead of doing so you argue.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2010, 11:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Doofy,

You argue that Muslims are required by their religion to attempt to conver the whole world to Islam. But this commandment does not appear in The Five Pillars (neither the Sunni or the Shi'ia version). As the acts contained in the Five Pillars are the only duties required of all Muslims I wonder where you got your idea that all Muslims are commanded to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam. Did you read about it in the Qur'an? What about in the Hadiths? Where did you read that a command/requirement/duty of a Muslim is to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam?
Start with my current sig.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2010, 11:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You're confusing it with Christianity again.
I've never met a non-devout muslim. Have you?
Yes, many. You simply need something to conform to your preconceived notions, and are unwilling to admit you might be wrong. You're making yourself look foolish.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
When I'm talking about questions and answers, I wasn't talking about conversation between people - I was talking about the internal conversation with myself during discovery. If I were to translate that internal discovery process into the same thing during a conversation with you, this thread would be several thousand pages long. And you'd owe me a keyboard.
It simply isn't a concise process.
Hence, you get the short version - which looks black and white.



I'm aware of my Cassandra syndrome. And I've grown to love popcorn.
But I'm not telling you to believe me, I'm telling you to go read and find out for yourself. Instead of doing so you argue.


Another very compelling means of persuasion (in the future): admitting that you were wrong. It's okay, you're human just like the rest of us, right? No big deal. Especially powerful for those of us that have known you for many years here and know that this sort of thing is a very, very rare occasion
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Doofy,

You argue that Muslims are required by their religion to attempt to conver the whole world to Islam. But this commandment does not appear in The Five Pillars (neither the Sunni or the Shi'ia version). As the acts contained in the Five Pillars are the only duties required of all Muslims I wonder where you got your idea that all Muslims are commanded to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam. Did you read about it in the Qur'an? What about in the Hadiths? Where did you read that a command/requirement/duty of a Muslim is to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam?
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Start with my current sig.
Yeah, what about your current sig? Is that from the Qur'an or the Hadiths? And where is it stated that all Muslims are required to carry out those acts? More important, is the work in which that statement is made something that ALL Muslims agree to?

The reason I ask is that the only thing ALL Muslims agree upon is the Five Pillars--and even then there are difference between Sunni and Shi'ia--and there is nothing within the Five Pillars regarding conversion of all non-Muslims. If it is not part of the Five Pillars then it is not a duty/requirement/practice universally applicable to all Muslims.


So while you may argue as if the commandment to attempt to convert the world to Islam is a belief held by all Muslims, it really isn't. ONLY the beliefs and duties outlined in the Five Pillars are held by all Muslims. Anything else asserted to be a belief held by all Muslims is simply false.
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Sep 12, 2010 at 12:20 AM. Reason: incorrect usage of a modifier.)
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Yes, many. You simply need something to conform to your preconceived notions, and are unwilling to admit you might be wrong. You're making yourself look foolish.
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Another very compelling means of persuasion (in the future): admitting that you were wrong. It's okay, you're human just like the rest of us, right? No big deal. Especially powerful for those of us that have known you for many years here and know that this sort of thing is a very, very rare occasion
And it doesn't occur to you guys that you might be wrong?

One example (direct quote from any pol lounge thread) from each of you stating that you're wrong, please.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Yeah, what about your current sig? Is that from the Qur'an or the Hadiths? And where is it stated that all Muslims are required to carry out those acts? More important, is the work in which that statement is made something that ALL Muslims agree to?
If you don't know where that quote's from then you need to go do more reading.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And it doesn't occur to you guys that you might be wrong?
Not in this case. Your notion that all Muslims are just waiting to kill us all is just plain ridiculous, and show how little you understand about human behavior, motivations and variety of beliefs.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And it doesn't occur to you guys that you might be wrong?
Really? Still?

*Sigh* I'm running out of patience for dealing with these absolutely retarded arguments (no offense Doofy, this thread is not vintage Doofy), and I'm also still waiting for a response to this:

What about all of the Muslim Americans that served and died in the US miliary? Is them risking their lives for US interests somehow a part of their quest for worldwide submission?
One example (direct quote from any pol lounge thread) from each of you stating that you're wrong, please.

Are you kidding? I'm wrong all the time about all sorts of shit and I admit this... I'm not sure if I want to bother digging something up though, this is starting to all seem like a pointless exercise, especially after all of this you are still stuck on this idea that you are "right" about a point that you seem to have conceded had variables that you did not account for. All I'm doing is trying to point out to you that your argument, as you stated it, was fatally flawed. If you still do not see this, I think I might be done here. If you want to have a take two at it, fine, but your original argument was flawed. Period.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
If you don't know where that quote's from then you need to go do more reading.
If you don't know that belief in and adherence to the Five Pillars are the only universal belief of ALL Muslims than you need to do more reading.


It's pretty simple, Doofy. You made a generalized statement about ALL believers in the Islamic faith. And you have been shown by me and others that your generalized statement is false. The only statement applicable to ALL Muslims is their belief in and adherence to the Five Pillars. What you have asserted to be a belief by ALL Muslims does not, in fact, fall under the Five Pillars; Therefore it is not a belief held by ALL Muslims. Thus, your statement is both wrong and logically false.

Better luck next time.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Are you kidding? I'm wrong all the time about all sorts of shit and I admit this... I'm not sure if I want to bother digging something up though
No, I'm not kidding. Indulge me. And you Karl.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
this is starting to all seem like a pointless exercise, especially after all of this you are still stuck on this idea that you are "right" about a point that you seem to have conceded had variables that you did not account for.
I didn't say I didn't account for variables.
Stop twisting.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
If you don't know that belief in and adherence to the Five Pillars are the only universal belief of ALL Muslims than you need to do more reading.

D- must try harder.
Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that the koran is the perfect, untainted word of allah.

Last time I looked, that wasn't in the pillars.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that the koran is the perfect, untainted word of allah.
Umm Doofy, have you forgotten what we have been talking about? We have been talking about actions required of believers of Islam in order to be considered a Muslim. Whether a Muslim believes "that the koran is the perfect, untainted word of allah" is irrelevant to being a Muslim. Being a Muslim is defined by the beliefs and actions outlined in the Five Pillars. And nowhere in the Five Pillars does it say that Muslims are commanded to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam.

In essence, you asserted Muslims must attempt to perform action X in order to be considered a Muslim.

Except, the document that actually defines what actions are required of a Muslim list actions A , B , C , D, and E.
The document that defines what actions are required of a Muslim never mentions action X.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Umm Doofy, have you forgotten what we have been talking about?
No, D, but it appears that you have.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
We have been talking about actions required of believers of Islam in order to be considered a Muslim.
No we haven't. We've been talking about the duties required of muslims, not what defines them as muslims.


Right. 6am. Tired. Night night.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No, D, but it appears that you have.



No we haven't. We've been talking about the duties required of muslims, not what defines them as muslims.


Right. 6am. Tired. Night night.
Yeah, go to bed. You are way too tired and not making any sense.


The "duties required of muslims" are what is outlined in the Five Pillars. Those five duties are what is required of Muslims in their religious practice. The first of those five duties is required to be performed for someone to even be considered Muslim.

But NOWHERE in the Five Pillars is there mention of a commandment to attempt to convert the world to Islam. It is just not there.
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Sep 12, 2010 at 01:52 AM. Reason: fixed punctuation mistake.)
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No, I'm not kidding. Indulge me. And you Karl.
I'll pass, I think this is a game of putting the focus somewhere else so that this conversation can proceed in you trying to make this whole debate a wash so that you don't have to admit to be wrong, which you don't have in you.


I didn't say I didn't account for variables.
Stop twisting.
I'm done here.

I pointed out the fallacy in the construction of your argument, dmcmacdaddy pointed out the weakness in your argument from a religious standpoint, neither of which you are able to counter yet you continue on. I'm no longer convinced that you have any desire to be reasonable. There is little point in having a discussion with people that are not being reasonable... See ya!
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm done here.

I pointed out the fallacy in the construction of your argument, dmcmacdaddy pointed out the weakness in your argument from a religious standpoint, neither of which you are able to counter yet you continue on. I'm no longer convinced that you have any desire to be reasonable. There is little point in having a discussion with people that are not being reasonable... See ya!
Besson,

How long have you been here? When has Doofy ever tried to be reasonable? You are suddenly deciding it is not worth it to have a discussion with Doofy because he is unreasonable??? If you didn't want to have an unreasonable discussion with Doofy you should have never said anything to him in the first place.


As for me, I know Doofy is unreasonable. I like to engage in these verbal joustings with him because he challenges me and I like to push myself to the limits of what is possible with logical debate. Heck, I have already proven him wrong logically with a basic algebraic example but he keeps coming back for more. I will give up participating in this debate with Doofy when I have refuted all his arguments by logical means. When that happens, he will still make his claims to "knowing" what Islam is all about and anyone still interested in arguing with him--for the sake of arguing--will do so. But when logic breaks down I have to bow out. I lose all interest in the experience at that point.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No we haven't. We've been talking about the duties required of muslims, not what defines them as muslims.
I think I will just quote myself here.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
In essence, you asserted Muslims must attempt to perform action X in order to be considered a Muslim.

Except, the document that actually defines what actions are required of a Muslim list actions A , B , C , D, and E.
The document that defines what actions are required of a Muslim never mentions action X.
Here I am talking about the specific actions required of Muslims, the five items that make up the Five Pillars.
And you mention X as being a duty "required of muslims" when it is not. A , B , C , D, and E are the "duties required of muslims", not X.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Besson,

How long have you been here? When has Doofy ever tried to be reasonable? You are suddenly deciding it is not worth it to have a discussion with Doofy because he is unreasonable??? If you didn't want to have an unreasonable discussion with Doofy you should have never said anything to him in the first place.


As for me, I know Doofy is unreasonable. I like to engage in these verbal joustings with him because he challenges me and I like to push myself to the limits of what is possible with logical debate. Heck, I have already proven him wrong logically with a basic algebraic example but he keeps coming back for more. I will give up participating in this debate with Doofy when I have refuted all his arguments by logical means. When that happens, he will still make his claims to "knowing" what Islam is all about and anyone still interested in arguing with him--for the sake of arguing--will do so. But when logic breaks down I have to bow out. I lose all interest in the experience at that point.


Yeah, but I think a lot of the times when he is being unreasonable he is just blowing off steam and being a blowhard character for the fun of it, although at times like this it seems like he actually thinks that there is nothing logically or rationally wrong with generalizing about billions of Muslims without exception. I haven't really figured it all out, because I really would like to think that he's not incapable of a decent argument that is a little bit beyond BadKosh territory.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 01:48 AM
 
Here's the quick summary for those of you following along at home.


Doofy
Statement: One of the "duties required of muslims" (X) is to attempt to convert the entire world to the Islamic faith.
Proof: Some un-named passage in the Qur'an, or maybe one of the Hadiths. Doofy doesn't say from where he got his quote.


dcmacdaddy
Statement: The five "duties required of muslims" (A , B , C , D , E) are A) profession of faith ; B) daily prayer ; C) fasting during the holy month ; D) giving of alms to the poor/needy ; E) pilgrimage to Mecca.
Proof: The beliefs and/or practices Muslims define for themselves as being essential duties of a Muslim. These are known both within and without the Muslim world as the Five Pillars of Islam.


So contestants, which one of these two statements regarding the "duties required of muslims" is correct? Anyone???
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Sep 12, 2010 at 01:55 AM. )
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 02:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'll pass, I think this is a game of putting the focus somewhere else
Don't be silly Bess. I'm calling you out. Your argument shifted to my "admitting I'm wrong" (which I'm not), so I'm asking you to show where in the history of the NN you've ever admitted you're wrong.

I can't recollect you ever stating that you're wrong on the MacNN forums. If you have done, I didn't read it.

Didn't your mom ever tell you not to fool around with an eidetic?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 02:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
I think I will just quote myself here.

In essence, you asserted Muslims must attempt to perform action X in order to be considered a Muslim.
Again, I didn't assert that at all.
Your logic is arse-about-face.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Here I am talking about the specific actions required of Muslims, the five items that make up the Five Pillars.
And yet you forget that ALL muslims view the koran as the direct word of allah, thus ALL directives within the koran are the direct commandments of allah and are to be followed in order to keep him happy.

Your argument is basically akin to saying that jews only have to follow the ten commandments whilst completely forgetting about the 613.

You really should stick to criticising religion, not sticking up for it, D.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
As for me, I know Doofy is unreasonable.
But I'm not unreasonable, D.
You're simply refusing to accept that you're wrong.

I don't know what you guys take me for. Do you think I'm one of your average tea-partiers or something? I'll be honest here - I'm mind-bendingly intelligent, way beyond the comprehension of most people. This is why you're having trouble understanding me. And why I have trouble communicating with you. I have to dull myself to function in the real world.



Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
I like to engage in these verbal joustings with him because he challenges me and I like to push myself to the limits of what is possible with logical debate.
See what I mean? You're pushing the limits and I'm barely ticking over.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Heck, I have already proven him wrong logically with a basic algebraic example but he keeps coming back for more.
No D, you've proven what you thought I was saying is capable of being placed into a simple string of letters which looks like a formula but is actually nothing more than a string of letters.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
screener
Senior User
Join Date: May 2009
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 05:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
One of the places where they take them to do this (a "country park") is a mile away from one of my rental houses. This is not isolated - it's happening everywhere here in England. It's real, it's coming. You're next.

Wake the f up!
One of your rental houses.
Guess I was close to getting who you are.
Another infraction.

Winger paranoia.

Agreeing with Beck who is a total loon says a lot as well.
Another infraction I guess.
     
screener
Senior User
Join Date: May 2009
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 05:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I was talking about the internal conversation with myself during discovery. If I were to translate that internal discovery process into the same thing during a conversation with you, this thread would be several thousand pages long.
Geezus H Christ.
     
screener
Senior User
Join Date: May 2009
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 05:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
I will give up participating in this debate with Doofy when I have refuted all his arguments by logical means. When that happens, he will still make his claims to "knowing" what Islam is all about and anyone still interested in arguing with him--for the sake of arguing--will do so. But when logic breaks down I have to bow out. I lose all interest in the experience at that point.
So what's the point, call it like it is and move on.
Geez, close to another infraction.
I'm such a "tard".
     
screener
Senior User
Join Date: May 2009
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 05:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
although at times like this it seems like he actually thinks that there is nothing logically or rationally wrong with generalizing about billions of Muslims without exception. I haven't really figured it all out, because I really would like to think that he's not incapable of a decent argument that is a little bit beyond BadKosh territory.
This is the time you got it right.

Geez, personal attack.
Not long for this forum.
     
screener
Senior User
Join Date: May 2009
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 05:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm no longer convinced that you have any desire to be reasonable. There is little point in having a discussion with people that are not being reasonable... See ya!
And when called on it, infraction.

From the "tard" with love.
( Last edited by screener; Sep 12, 2010 at 06:02 AM. )
     
screener
Senior User
Join Date: May 2009
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 06:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm mind-bendingly intelligent, way beyond the comprehension of most people. This is why you're having trouble understanding me. And why I have trouble communicating with you. I have to dull myself to function in the real world.
I don't really care anymore, what an ass.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
you forget that ALL muslims view the koran as the direct word of allah
Correct. They do.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
thus ALL directives within the koran are the direct commandments of allah and are to be followed in order to keep him happy.
INcorrect. Simply because Allah said to do action X in the Qur'an does NOT mean Muslims must do action X. As I have said before, there are only five actions a Muslim MUST do; Those five actions are described in the Five Pillars. Performing the actions describe in the Five Pillars is mandatory; Performing other actions are optional.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Your argument is basically akin to saying that jews only have to follow the ten commandments whilst completely forgetting about the 613.
Well, not all Jews strive to adhere to all 613 commandments, only the orthodox and ultra-orthodox strive to adhere to all 613 commandments.


Here is an example from Christianity of a similar phenomenon to what we find in Islam. Jesus says to do lots of things in the Gospels (Love your neighbor, Turn the other cheek, etc.) but the only actions required of a Christian--for believers of almost all sects of Christianity--are declaration of the Nicene Creed and an adherence to the Ten Commandments (which are Jewish in origin and adopted by Christianity).

There is no Christian sect that says "You must do EVERYTHING Jesus said to do in the Gospels. Just like there is no strand of Islam that says you must do EVERYTHING Allah said to do in the Qur'an. No matter much you wish it to be true there is no requirement for Muslims to do everything Allah says to do in the Qur'an. Just like there is no requirement for Christians to do everything Jesus says to do in the Gospels.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 11:34 AM
 
Doofy,

Where is it written that ALL Muslims MUST perform every action pronounced by Allah in the Qur'an?

Where is the statement of practice from Muslims that says we think we must do everything Allah says to do in the Qur'an?
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You're confusing it with Christianity again.
I've never met a non-devout muslim. Have you?
when I was in university, there was a practicing Muslim girl who hung out with us. she always wore a bikini when we went to the beach. would you consider that "non-devout"?

not all Muslims fit the mould that you've been conditioned to hate. get to know a few, you'll find that most of them aren't all that different from most of us.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:14 PM
 
Of course, this whole discussion points to the biggest shortcoming of religious belief systems (apart from the mere existence of religious beliefs in the first place).

The biggest shortcoming of religious belief systems is that while sacred texts may be "divinely inspired", the act of recording the sacred texts will be inherently flawed as the act of recording the sacred texts must be done by humans who are inherently flawed. In other words, divine speech will always become not-fully-divine writings as inherently flawed humans are the vehicles transferring the divine speech to a different medium. And in this act of transference some of humanity's flaws will contaminate the divinely inspired words.



Remember, in the context of religious thought, speech is perfectly divine, writing is not.

Mark 1:2-3 - As it is written in the prophet Isaiah, "See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way; the voice of one crying out in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,'"
[The "voice of one crying out in the wilderness" is perfection; The writings of the person recording said voice are not perfect.]

Luke 1:1-3 - Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you
[Another "servant of the word"--a servant of divine speech--attempts to record in writing an account of the holy and divine speech. And because the servant is human the recording will be flawed and imperfect because humans* are flawed and imperfect.]
*In the history of the whole world there has existed only one perfect human, and that was Jesus Christ. He was perfect because he was "the Word made flesh". He was divine speech transmogrified into perfect human form.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14- And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.
[Here is an explicit declaration that the spoken word is divine, in fact, the spoken word is divinity itself.]


Some research into the ideas of Speech Act Theory will illustrate how the topic of divine speech can be best discussed/analyzed. But as in the debate I had with Railroader regarding "knowledge" of the sources of beliefs in Christianity, we are veering into epistemological territory now. This is far away from your original point that ALL Muslims are required to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam.
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Sep 12, 2010 at 12:34 PM. )
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
dcmacdaddy
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 12:39 PM
 
For those of you just joining us, or catching back up with this thread after some time away, this is where we are at. Doofy and I are arguing whether or not it is a duty of ALL Muslims to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam. Doofy claims it is, I claim it is not.

Doofy
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It's a duty of every muslim to bring the whole world to submission. You cannot be a muslim without accepting this duty. Period.
dcmacdaddy
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
Being a Muslim is defined by the beliefs and actions outlined in the Five Pillars. And nowhere in the Five Pillars does it say that Muslims are commanded to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Doofy
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vacation.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 12, 2010, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
There is no Christian sect that says "You must do EVERYTHING Jesus said to do in the Gospels".
Have you actually read what Jesus said to do? It would seem not, since you use the word "everything".

This is pointless. I'll get back to my hols.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
BadKosh
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 08:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
And I'm looking forward to referencing videos of the dead nurses, doctors, and staff that were murdered by Christians in clinic bombings.
Why not swap those for the photos of Christians killed by Muslims all over the middle east and Africa.
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 09:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why not swap those for the photos of Christians killed by Muslims all over the middle east and Africa.
Because, we can rely on you to post those photos.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 09:59 AM
 
A Brisbane lawyer decided to roll some "grass clippings" up in pages of the Koran and the Bible to see which smoked better. His YouTube video and account have been deleted.
Australian lawyer smokes pages of Bible and Koran, asking 'Which is best?' - Telegraph
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 12:26 PM
 
ironically, the video was probably taken down due to the pot smoking rather than because of any religious offense.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
For those of you just joining us, or catching back up with this thread after some time away, this is where we are at. Doofy and I are arguing whether or not it is a duty of ALL Muslims to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam. Doofy claims it is, I claim it is not.

Doofy

Originally Posted by Doofy
It's a duty of every muslim to bring the whole world to submission. You cannot be a muslim without accepting this duty. Period.
dcmacdaddy

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Being a Muslim is defined by the beliefs and actions outlined in the Five Pillars. And nowhere in the Five Pillars does it say that Muslims are commanded to attempt to convert the whole world to Islam.
Simply put .... dcmacdaddy is correct and Doofy is wrong. Being a "muslim" is defined by the Five Pillars of Islam. Period. Everything else beyond that is subject to interpretation. Furthermore, the Holy Qur'an itself speaks to this in Sura 2 verse 256 .....

2.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.


I've yet to experience a Muslim even attempt to proselytize me ... let alone by force. Now Jehovah's Witnesses on the other hand ....

OAW
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
And when called on it, infraction.

From the "tard" with love.
Dude,

we already have one hyteckit, and thats surely more than enough. Could you please try to add to the discussions here, instead of taking away from them?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 13, 2010, 01:05 PM
 
I forget what the consensus of this thread is. Do I have to officially come out and disavow/condemn hyteckit and screener because of my liberal leanings or do you geniuses realize he doesn't represent the more rational among us?
     
cgc
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Down by the river
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Nov 28, 2010, 03:53 PM
 
Sorry to drag up a thread that went silent, but I think if Muslim leaders would publicly denounce violence by their followers we'd see the handful of violent Muslims as the fringe they are. Since violence/overreaction seems accepted or at least tolerated as part of Muslim behavior we (non-Muslims) see it as sanctioned behavior and stereotype all Muslims.
"Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes." Frank Drebin, Naked Gun 33 1/3: The Final Insult
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Nov 28, 2010, 03:54 PM
 
What makes you think this isn't already happening? Which Muslims leaders have been silent?
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Nov 28, 2010, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
Sorry to drag up a thread that went silent, but I think if Muslim leaders would publicly denounce violence by their followers we'd see the handful of violent Muslims as the fringe they are. Since violence/overreaction seems accepted or at least tolerated as part of Muslim behavior we (non-Muslims) see it as sanctioned behavior and stereotype all Muslims.
They have been. Even those involved in the "Ground Zero Mosque"; Fox even had a report containing one such condemnation back when Fox was in favor of the mosque. However, those complaining about Muslim leaders not denouncing terrorism don't seem to want to actually *hear* muslim denouncing terrorism (makes it difficult to claim that all Muslims support terrorism).
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Nov 28, 2010, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What makes you think this isn't already happening? Which Muslims leaders have been silent?
Bullshit. You can not conclusively prove that someone has been silent.

The proof needed is that Muslim leaders spoke up.
I don't recall any of the known Muslim leaders to have spoken up against it.

-t
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Nov 28, 2010, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't recall any of the known Muslim leaders to have spoken up against it.

-t
There you go then; it's settled, isn't it?
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:39 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,