[besson3c]

Paging Spheric Harlot and others...

My wife is prepping a classical trumpet audition DVD of her plus piano. I'm trying to figure out the best way to record her with the gear that we have, or at least assessing what sort of gear is out there and how much it would add.

A lot of these musicians just do the room mic thing with classical performances like this, in large part because trumpet players like having a lot of reverb in their recordings so it sounds more church cathedral-like, and also where the trumpet generally sounds the best in this context.

In the past I messed around with software reverb using Audacity, but the results seemed really fake. Do you know of any software based reverbs I can play with that will give her the option of recording in more places? Even if the software reverb just adds a little in making the room sound larger it needs to sound natural.

We have a pretty nice mic and preamp, do you think we should give serious thought into some other gear?

Any other recording tips, particularly on the audio side of things?

Thanks in advance guys!

[BadKosh]

Find a better room to record in. Keep microphones to a minimum. Keep mics away from trumpet, so it won't distort the microphones. What kind of mics are you using? What mixer? Keep away from software as much as possible to keep it real. How are you recording the piano?

For so few instruments, I would be using a pair of PZM types back about 8 feet from the trumpet and a foot from the piano. You may want to experiment with distances before doing the real recording.

[Spheric Harlot]

^ good starting advice.

Worrying about the reverb is the cart before the horse at this point in your explanations.

FWIW, my approach to reverb is that if a casual listener will notice the reverb, it's either too much, it's the wrong reverb, or you're adding it specifically as an attention-drawing effect.

[subego]

I'm with everybody in the room department.

Likewise, actual reverb from a room > processed reverb. Every time.


I have a mic fetish too, so I'm interested in what you be using.

[besson3c]

Thanks guys!

I bought an Audio-Technica AT825 years ago, that is what I was planning on using for this, unless there is a huge upgrade available that isn't crazy expensive?

We don't need to go absolutely crazy with this recording, since it is a recording to do a very basic pre-screening assessment of the trumpet playing. I'm sure there are better mics out there, but the quality of the recording will not be assessed by the audition process, we just need something that does reasonable justice to the sound of the trumpet. That isn't to say that I wouldn't be curious at looking at options, I just wanted to put this into context.

If nothing more I'm looking for ideas like BadKosh's to work with what we have, for now the one mic (no mixer).

[BadKosh]

How close is the mic to the piano, and exactly WHERE?

Do you plan to equalize your mics prior to recording?

I would suggest the piano be towards the side of the room, with the mic placed to best record the piano, as the trumpet will still be heard, even when 10 feet away and not aimed at the mic.

[besson3c]

The traditional physical setup for this that you'd find in a live performance is the piano player facing the trumpet player so that they can make eye contact, the trumpet bell facing the audience.

There is some room to play with distances and such, but the ability to have easy eye contact must be there.

[subego]

How many recording inputs do you have?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

How many recording inputs do you have?

Two.

Audio Technica mic -> USB Mobilepre -> laptop



We are using the XLR inputs, and have a splitter thingy to go from the single mic output to the two XLR inputs for the MobilePre. The mic is a stereo mic.

[subego]

I could be wrong here, and (I hope) Spheric and BK will smack me down if I am, but I'm seeing ideal placement to balance out the piano and trumpet being at odds with a "normal" sounding stereo field.

[BadKosh]

UUUGGH!! A 'stereo mic' . Put it towards the furtherest side of the piano. Maybe bring a big mirror for the eye contact as recording is more critical because of the mic. I still say have the trumpet about 8-15 feet from the mic. Use it flat, no roll off in the bass as it will make the piano sound tinny. i would have the mic about 14" from the long side of the piano (assuming a grand style of piano). The trumpet, off to one side will make for a nice recording, but not blast the electret.

Specs on the mic:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTAT825

[finboy]

You should be able to get two SM57s cheap, you can even rent them some places if you need to. I've recorded/amped thousands of hours back in the old days, and the only thing they didn't work for was harmonica.

I don't know how they would work through a USB preamp thingy, since all we had then was analog (and very, very simple analog at that). You certainly need to prototype all of this with plenty of time before the actual session.

For pianos, we used to put the mic on a boom or flex over the open grand case. For uprights it's a little harder, but you should be able to walk around the setup with a piece of flexible tubing to your ear and put the end of it in various places to see where your ear pics up the best sound.

[subego]

Shit. I'll lend you a pair of 57s if you want to try them out. Gratis.

[besson3c]

I've played with SM57s at gigs a number of times, they are pretty standard fare.

I take it you guys think that there should be separation/separate micing for the piano and trumpet? How would we prevent bleeding from one mic into the other? The trumpet is loud and stuff.

[subego]

How would you prevent bleeding in this case? Not easily.

[besson3c]

It is very kind of you to offer to lend me the SM57s subego!

I'm pretty sure what is standard, what I've seen done with recording this sort of setup is a simple room mic, because the performers are going after making you feel like you're sitting there in the audience, where the trumpet and piano are balanced organically rather than having track separation and mixing and all of that (in fact, synthetic balancing might be a distraction with a recording like this - room trumpet plus more traditionally engineered piano might seem a little manufactured?) The same is true for any classical setup I've ever seen that comes to mind - I've never seen individual instrument mics, although I'm not an expert and can only speak to my recollection/observations.

For one, like I said, the eye contact is needed for that organicness, and if we're talking about recording in a large room with natural reverb there will be bleeding anyway, right?

Is there a good argument to replace our single Audio Technica stereo mic (which I bought years and years ago as a naive college kid and am happy to to replace if necessary) with something like an SM57? I was told at the time that the mic I have is of slightly better quality than an SM57, which is mostly sort of your warhorse, versatile mic which will suit most purposes, but is not necessarily the ideal mic for trumpet. Is this accurate?

[subego]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the mic in and of itself, but I think a mono recording will be more like what an audience member hears than the stereo.

Of course, we hear it in the audience in stereo, but there's all kinds of complicated shit with separation which isn't well simulated inside a tiny basket like that.

The tried and true stereo method takes three mics spread out. Google "decca tree". There are two-mic methods, but most of those are spread out as well.

The 57s aren't really ideal if you want a natural "in the audience" sound, they're just widely available. You'd pretty much have to use two, and your high-end would be weak.

[subego]

@BK,

What would you say making lemonade and only using one channel of the stereo mic?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the mic in and of itself, but I think a mono recording will be more like what an audience member hears than the stereo.

Of course, we hear it in the audience in stereo, but there's all kinds of complicated paint with separation which isn't well simulated inside a tiny basket like that.

The tried and true stereo method takes three mics spread out. Google "decca tree". There are two-mic methods, but most of those are spread out as well.

The 57s aren't really ideal if you want a natural "in the audience" sound, they're just widely available. You'd pretty much have to use two, and your high-end would be weak.

Makes sense.

Were the stereo mics in vogue at some point or something? It does seem like a silly concept, I'm not really sure why they were recommended to me at the time, other than maybe the idea that two mics are better than one for less directional pickup or something?

[Spheric Harlot]

The point about using separate mics is that having a single stereo mic in one location is going to make balancing the instruments AND making them sound good a matter of much experimentation.

Recording a piano with 57s will result in a pretty cool sound, but "natural", it will be not.

This is for a classical demo. If all there is at this point is a stereo electret condenser, then that's going to be the primary mic.

[BadKosh]

Since you have 2 inputs that can do Phantom power, Try and find a pair of the Crown large PZM mics. Also get two boom mic stands. I use this method and have used a pair of these for almost 18 years. I record things like the Cicada invasion, thunderstorms, steam locomotives, fireworks etc, where full range and dynamic range are important. The best feature is the almost complete lack of phase distortion.

Hang the mics about 3 inches below the normal attach points on the boom stands so they hang down from the XLR connectors. Tape the mic cable to the end of the stand . One, over the long end(deep frequencies) of the piano facing the other short side of the piano. It will give you the fullness without tinniness and the wideness within the depth of field. Place the other one the other side of the piano(high end strings) but face it towards the back side of the piano facing the trumpet. See if you can place it inside the piano cover(assuming its a grand style) to get both the high end of the piano and the trumpet.

For a PZM, the pick-up pattern is from the plate, up about 35 degrees and to the sides about 50 degrees. The closer you get the more detail. They are a proximity type mic, so the distance matters. This is where I'd start *IF* you decide to try these mics. The lack of phase distortion means the overall sound will be far more clean.

An alternate would be to have the PZM mics 'facing the stage, but have the mics about 15-25 feet from the stage/musicians area and pointed in about 35-40 degrees, and about a foot apart. This will be very close to the "Binural" style of recording where through headphones it sounds like you are not wearing them, and when listening on the home stereo, you still get the spatial image. This is how I record thunderstorms and fireworks.

I hope this isn't info overload. I've just found that having good mics and through experimentation learning how they sound best in all sorts of horrid places and conditions.

[subego]

It's awesome for me. I know very little PZM arcana.

[BadKosh]

I think this thread is also amazing as we have chimed in to help Besson even though we have vastly different backgrounds and opinions.

I just want Besson & associates to end up with a great recording, which highlights a fine performance which might lead $omewhere.

Back in the late 1970's into the Mid 1980's I did some live sound re-enforcement for some really fine performers like (gasp!) Leon Redbone, and such. They stuck me with hard to deal with performers as I was really good with the equipment, was totally unimpressed with the performers (which they got) and was there just to make them sound as good as their records. Leon would always ask for me during the 5 performances he did in DC during that time, and even though he was kind of weird, we hit it off. He used to travel from gig to gig by train just like the performers of the early 1900's. His instruments were tuned to the pre 1915 change in tuning. I still like Sheik of Araby, and Walking Stick. (his was worth about $15K with the gold handle. He said that his appearance on Saturday Night Live paid for it! LOL

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by subego 

It's awesome for me. I know very little PZM arcana.

I'll answer any questions you have! I really respect the Crown PZM's. In 1991, I let someone borrow them and they blew out both electrets. (Fuq!) so I sent them back to Crown, who replaced them with blowout proof versions. They were more smooth, so I really liked them.

I use a DC powered pro mixer so I can sit in a tent in the mountains with little tents about 20 feet on either side, and take that to my Macbook Pro running CD Spindoctor also off of batteries, so no AC hum. This is how I recorded thunderstorms. I would go to a near state park, set u my tent, and then 2 small tents with packing quilts on top to keep the rain sound to a minimum and the mics facing out of the front. I was amazed when lightning struck about 40 feet from my tent and STILL left an electric pop before the sound hit the mics.

[subego]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

I think this thread is also amazing as we have chimed in to help Besson even though we have vastly different backgrounds and opinions...

1) That's an awesome story
2) I hate your politics, but you're hugely likable outside of that.

[subego]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

I'll answer any questions you have! I really respect the Crown PZM's. In 1991, I let someone borrow them and they blew out both electrets. (Fuq!) so I sent them back to Crown, who replaced them with blowout proof versions. They were more smooth, so I really liked them.

I use a DC powered pro mixer so I can sit in a tent in the mountains with little tents about 20 feet on either side, and take that to my Macbook Pro running CD Spindoctor also off of batteries, so no AC hum. This is how I recorded thunderstorms. I would go to a near state park, set u my tent, and then 2 small tents with packing quilts on top to keep the rain sound to a minimum and the mics facing out of the front. I was amazed when lightning struck about 40 feet from my tent and STILL left an electric pop before the sound hit the mics.

This is all hugely interesting. I have a film background, so all my experience with location recording is with shotguns.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by subego 

This is all hugely interesting. I have a film background, so all my experience with location recording is with shotguns.

COOL! some questions. Do you ever pick up the mechanical noise from booms? what kind of shotgun mics? Obviously they are cardioid??? What kind of main pickup angles are you getting?
I've seen a 16mm camera (old Mitchell I think) with a pair of shotguns out about 3 feet on either side used for a guy filming steam locomotives in the late 1980's. I have a copy on DVD and it sounds really good.

[BadKosh]

OK, so where is Besson?????????

[subego]

You don't get any mechanical noise if the boom operator knows what they're doing. The only motions you'll see are a gentle change of the angle on the wrists, or twisting at the waist. Arms get locked*, and the handgrip never changes once recording begins.

The standards are Sennheisers and Schoeps. The Schoeps are more neutral, but the Senns are RF condensers, so humidity doesn't trash them like it will with the Schoeps.

With the Senns, the MKH 416 (short gun) and the 816 (long gun) are the industry standards, though they have newer models now (MKH 8060 and 8070).

For Schoeps, the CMIT 5U is sort of a "medium gun". The Colette MK 41 capsule is the short gun.

I'm horrible with angles, so I'd be pulling numbers out of my ass.

I've been looking into wireless, but putting it off because to do it right I need an FCC license, which seems like a pain in my ass.



*To be pedantic, slightly unlocked is less fatiguing over long periods.

[subego]

I'm curious about the PZMs. You weren't mounting them on a surface?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Since you have 2 inputs that can do Phantom power, Try and find a pair of the Crown large PZM mics. Also get two boom mic stands. I use this method and have used a pair of these for almost 18 years. I record things like the Cicada invasion, thunderstorms, steam locomotives, fireworks etc, where full range and dynamic range are important. The best feature is the almost complete lack of phase distortion.

Hang the mics about 3 inches below the normal attach points on the boom stands so they hang down from the XLR connectors. Tape the mic cable to the end of the stand . One, over the long end(deep frequencies) of the piano facing the other short side of the piano. It will give you the fullness without tinniness and the wideness within the depth of field. Place the other one the other side of the piano(high end strings) but face it towards the back side of the piano facing the trumpet. See if you can place it inside the piano cover(assuming its a grand style) to get both the high end of the piano and the trumpet.

For a PZM, the pick-up pattern is from the plate, up about 35 degrees and to the sides about 50 degrees. The closer you get the more detail. They are a proximity type mic, so the distance matters. This is where I'd start *IF* you decide to try these mics. The lack of phase distortion means the overall sound will be far more clean.

An alternate would be to have the PZM mics 'facing the stage, but have the mics about 15-25 feet from the stage/musicians area and pointed in about 35-40 degrees, and about a foot apart. This will be very close to the "Binural" style of recording where through headphones it sounds like you are not wearing them, and when listening on the home stereo, you still get the spatial image. This is how I record thunderstorms and fireworks.

I hope this isn't info overload. I've just found that having good mics and through experimentation learning how they sound best in all sorts of horrid places and conditions.

If confuses me, but I appreciate it! If I'm going for the room's reverb, why would I want the trumpet mic close to the trumpet, and if it is not close, how do I prevent the bleeding?

[besson3c]

What model of PZM did you have in mind exactly, BadKosh?

PZM Series

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If confuses me, but I appreciate it! If I'm going for the room's reverb, why would I want the trumpet mic close to the trumpet, and if it is not close, how do I prevent the bleeding?

You don't.

You get the recording right, instead.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

You don't.

You get the recording right, instead.

How can I get the recording right without it sounding like it was recorded in a large room, or are you saying I put the trumpet mic a distance away from the trumpet so it can pick up the reverb, while I record with the piano mic right on the piano?

If so, wouldn't that combination be weird and make the two sound divorced from each other, losing intimacy?

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm curious about the PZMs. You weren't mounting them on a surface?

No. I have the large plate versions PZM 30GPG about 5 inches square and since the physics is the sound waves at the boundry layer (about 1/16") off the plate is where the electrets 'hole' is having more area really doesn't make t sound any better. When I was recording steam locomotives I experimented by putting them on the ties outside the rails to get the mechanical noise from the valve gear as well as the chuffing. I didn't like the overall sound as much as when I put them on blocks of sponge, with an angle of about 30 degrees and had them about 12 feet back from the tracks as the loco went by.

I have hung mine from the mic cables for 15 years. I just rotate the cable to point them to the desired angle. I have experimented with them on tables, carpet floors, and hanging on the walls, but this turned out to be a constraint. I use my billion year old pair of Koss Pro 4 AA's with the isolation to listen to the sound stage, separation etc before I commit to the recording.

This summer we had an owl that would hoot it up about 3-4 am. I hung the mics from a pair of 6' tall metal plant hooks that you stake into the ground. I used a #64 rubber band to secure the mic cables off the hook by about 4 inches. I started the recording about 2:45 am, but I guess the owl decided to not show. Every night I set up the gear the dam owl would be a no-show. Finally I did get a recording of it, but the owl was about 1/2 mile away, so not a really good recording. I used a MacBook Pro, external firewire drive to hold 4-6 hours of recording and my DC mixer. sometimes you just can't win. I'm still playing with a "Tube Sock" thing on a set of wire hooks to keep my PZM's away from any rain, etc for a better way to record thunder storms because the tents are too old and the packing quilts were thrown away during my last move. I think they were decaying from being put away damp.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How can I get the recording right without it sounding like it was recorded in a large room, or are you saying I put the trumpet mic a distance away from the trumpet so it can pick up the reverb, while I record with the piano mic right on the piano?

If so, wouldn't that combination be weird and make the two sound divorced from each other, losing intimacy?

The "Large Room" will provide its own real echo/reverb. If you use your stereo mic instead of two distinct microphones the image will be more dependent on where you pointed the mic. Since you don't have your horn section in its own closet, the trumpet volume will be directly affected by distance from the mic.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

The "Large Room" will provide its own real echo/reverb. If you use your stereo mic instead of two distinct microphones the image will be more dependent on where you pointed the mic. Since you don't have your horn section in its own closet, the trumpet volume will be directly affected by distance from the mic.

I see, I think! Thanks...

Which PZM mic model did you have in mind with your recommendation? PZM Series

[BadKosh]

PZM 30D set to bright.

[subego]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

No. I have the large plate versions...

That's really good to know. Had no idea that was even worth trying, let alone it could be preferred.