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Synotic · Jan 21, 2005, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
This always shows the templates. I would like to see how Pages looks without a template. Just a normal empty page and how it looks if you type text yourself starting from an empty page. If possible with the ruler(s) turned on. I would also like to see how the palettes (especially the document palette) look in German.

Well here's a blank page:

(click to enlarge)

I like how there's no particular distinction between the normal word-processing use of Pages and the page layout part� the templates are just basic documents with shapes thrown around and text wrap turned on, and sometimes the columns feature enabled. Moving stuff around is a lot more natural than it is in Word; moving around an embedded table or an image was always a pain. Tables are, by the way, handled quite nicely. It imported a semi-complex Word document, which I created, pretty well. I'll try and get a comparison in here, soon.

Stecchino · Jan 21, 2005, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by podshop:
Thanks for posting the link with the screen shots. I am really anxious to try out Pages, and after looking at it in more detail, I know I will have to get iWork. Apple just makes things so easy to use and intuitive. I can't wait to dump M$ Word.

I'm not sure where you are in Nebraska, but I'm in Council Bluffs, Iowa just east of Omaha. The Mac-carrying stores around here are slim to none, but hopefully I'll get a chance to see iWork, iLife '05, and the Mac mini 'face to face' soon.

Thanks again.

I'm in Lincoln and ditto regarding Mac-carrying stores. Nebraska Furniture Mart in Omaha had a pretty good selection of Macs the last time I was there but that is the only store I've seen in this region.

Did you order a Mac Mini as well? Sounds like you REALLY liked this recent keynote address.

TETENAL · Jan 21, 2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Synotic:
Well here's a blank page:

Thanks. Could you also make a screenshot of the document palette in German?

I like how there's no particular distinction between the normal word-processing use of Pages and the page layout part� the templates are just basic documents with shapes thrown around and text wrap turned on, and sometimes the columns feature enabled. Moving stuff around is a lot more natural than it is in Word; moving around an embedded table or an image was always a pain.

Are there images that are linked to a certain position in text (so that if text moves to another page the image follows) or are images only at a fixed position on a page (like the app name suggests)? Is it possible to have small "inline" images that behave like characters?

Ilja · Jan 21, 2005, 01:28 PM

Is there anything known about the .pages fileformat? What kind of structure (xml?), is there a spec?

BZ · Jan 21, 2005, 01:39 PM

Yup. Arrived yest. I will play with it all weekend.

BZ

mdc · Jan 21, 2005, 01:42 PM

will be delivered before 4:30pm. niiiice.
i hate waiting for fedex.

Synotic · Jan 21, 2005, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Thanks. Could you also make a screenshot of the document palette in German?

Is this what you're looking for?

Are there images that are linked to a certain position in text (so that if text moves to another page the image follows) or are images only at a fixed position on a page (like the app name suggests)? Is it possible to have small "inline" images that behave like characters?

Yes, yes, and yes. Pages is pretty cool when it comes to image/object wrapping:

All objects on a page can either "move with text" or be "fixed on page" as the palette shows. The first image shows the fish with "fixed on page" with no wrapping. In the second image, the fish has object wrap enabled, with text flowing on both sides and the text fitting in its little crevices� it's a transparent PNG. If you look at the second full size example, you'll see that the selected photo has a correspond blue "marker." The photo is set with "moves with text" and object causes wrap. You can drag the photo anywhere within the text, and the marker is set, and then the photo goes wherever your settings tell it to. The marker is part of the text, so as the text changes, the marker moves, and subsequently, the photo moves. It works intuitively when you use it.

Originally posted by Ilja:
Is there anything known about the .pages fileformat? What kind of structure (xml?), is there a spec?

It looks to be just like the Keynote format� a package containing all linked files and an XML file, which defines the document. If you want to play with it, you can download my example Pages document here. You'll have to control-click on the unzipped document and choose "Show Package Contents," and then you should see the "index.xml.gz." Just double-click on that and you have your XML file, which you can open in TextEdit; it's not terribly readable, but it's better than Word.

TETENAL · Jan 21, 2005, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Synotic:
Is this what you're looking for?

Yes, thanks a lot!

Yes, yes, and yes. Pages is pretty cool when it comes to image/object wrapping

Very cool. Can you embed tables and diagrams like this as well? Is it possible to embed text frames? And last question, can you mix different columns numbers on one page?

galarneau · Jan 21, 2005, 03:47 PM

How well does the Keynote 2 exporting work?

I have a desktop Mac at home, but will need to give a couple presentations this year for work, so I'm hoping that I can export to Quicktime or Flash, and then still be able to control the presentation from a remote 9e.g. next slide, prev slide, pause etc)

The iWork website says something about exporting to "Quicktime Interactive", but I'm not really sure what that means.

Maybe I'll have to buy an iBook or something :-(

mcsjgs · Jan 21, 2005, 04:22 PM

I really like what I've seen so far. Stuff for the rest of us.

Tsilou B. · Jan 21, 2005, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by galarneau:
How well does the Keynote 2 exporting work?

I have a desktop Mac at home, but will need to give a couple presentations this year for work, so I'm hoping that I can export to Quicktime or Flash, and then still be able to control the presentation from a remote 9e.g. next slide, prev slide, pause etc)

The iWork website says something about exporting to "Quicktime Interactive", but I'm not really sure what that means.

Maybe I'll have to buy an iBook or something :-(

If you can configure the remote of your PC laptop so that it can send arrow key presses to the Quicktime Player, you only need Quicktime Pro on your PC so that you can switch to full screen. Of course, you cannot use the new presenter view of Keynote 2 that way.

AKcrab · Jan 21, 2005, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by AKcrab:
I hear the html output is horrible. Can anyone confirm?

mdc · Jan 21, 2005, 04:47 PM

mine *just* arrived, after i install it i will try the .html output and tell you.

Stecchino · Jan 21, 2005, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by mdc:
mine *just* arrived, after i install it i will try the .html output and tell you.

Excellent, thank you!

mitchell_pgh · Jan 21, 2005, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by AKcrab:

I'm guessing it's on par with Quark.

mdc · Jan 21, 2005, 06:34 PM

could someone else try the html exporting? because mine is not working. the pages look horrible.

take a look for yourself

in happier news, keynote 2 is amazing

Synotic · Jan 21, 2005, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Can you embed tables and diagrams like this as well? Is it possible to embed text frames? And last question, can you mix different columns numbers on one page?

Yes, all "objects" work the same way. There are table objects, chart/diagram objects and text objects (frames). With columns, there are two things: the current page's column setting, and the column setting of text frames/objects and square shapes. Here's an illustrated version:

You can insert a square shape or text frame, select it, and then use the columns palette to modify it as needed. Then the objects can be moved around anywhere you want.

Regarding the HTML support, I can confirm that it's a mostly useless feature. If you just want to export a straight word document, then it's somewhat sufficient. But for anything else, I'd just export to PDF and link that� everything is perfectly maintained, of course. The HTML feature is probably just there because Word has it; you shouldn't use it. Also, I, having some web experience, can say that this isn't something that can be "improved"� you can't reliably transform an absolutely positioned print document to a dynamic web document.

mitchell_pgh · Jan 21, 2005, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by mdc:
could someone else try the html exporting? because mine is not working. the pages look horrible.

take a look for yourself

in happier news, keynote 2 is amazing

That page loaded perfectly for me... what version of Safari are you running?

AKcrab · Jan 21, 2005, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
That page loaded perfectly for me... what version of Safari are you running?

Huh.. Looks pretty messed up with windoze firefox..
It loads, but I don't think it's "right".

edit: a comparison PDF is really needed.

electric monk · Jan 21, 2005, 07:32 PM

Looks fine with Omniweb.

Second the PDF comparison requirement.

mdc · Jan 21, 2005, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
That page loaded perfectly for me... what version of Safari are you running?

1.2.4 (v125.12)

Originally posted by AKcrab:
Huh.. Looks pretty messed up with windoze firefox..
It loads, but I don't think it's "right".

edit: a comparison PDF is really needed.

comparison .pdf

cpac · Jan 21, 2005, 07:38 PM

well it's definitely screwed up in IE6 (stuck at work for now).

Anybody run the source through a HTML validator?

juanvaldes · Jan 21, 2005, 07:40 PM

latest Safari, OW, Camino, IE etc all display crap.

Here is a PDF snapshot of the Johnson template for comparison sake. Link pdf

electric monk · Jan 21, 2005, 07:41 PM

In Omniweb anyway the border is screwed up, otherwise looks ok.

bbales · Jan 21, 2005, 07:43 PM

ARghghghggh. Have to have 10.3.6. I'm still on 10.3.4. Will have to update before I can install. I'm a little irked...

And I was not having any trouble with 103.4, so had planned on staying there awhile!

Oh well, it's snowing like crazy in Illinois so I might as well do this tonight.

Mediaman_12 · Jan 21, 2005, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by cpac:
well it's definitely screwed up in IE6 (stuck at work for now).

Anybody run the source through a HTML validator?

No point really. It doesn't put a doctype at the start, so the W3C's validator just stops in it's tracks.
Anything that Exports to HTML, as if it's just another document format is a disaster. They ALL only work because HTML browsers are so forgiving of exceptionally poor code.

MacGorilla · Jan 21, 2005, 09:33 PM

I just got Pages tonight and I must say, it's spiffy!

AKcrab · Jan 21, 2005, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by mdc:
1.2.4 (v125.12)

comparison .pdf

There go my hopes for a decent, integrated, wysiwyg, html editor.

tkmd · Jan 21, 2005, 10:30 PM

Im trying out the keynote 2 right now a problem has already arisen. If I type a word on the front sheet the program (a medical term) not in the dictionary the cpu becomes pegged at 100% and in 2 minutes the progam quits! WTF? I trashed the old keynote program and preference. Any other idea's Is this happening to anyone else?

insha · Jan 22, 2005, 02:59 AM

Got my copy of iWork '05 today (this morning) and i am impressed with Keynote 2 and Pages. I have played around with Pages a little bit and thus far I am having a ball using it.

Pages template are pretty cool and the export to Word is awesome. I exported out an already existing template to Word and it kept all formating and positioning of the template in the Word file, along with all styles.

Needless to say that this is just the first impression and I will be playing around with iWork '05 over this weekend. If the initial joy is any indication for this duo apps, specifically the new comer Pages, I won't be surprised if I stop using Word any longer.

Hairllama · Jan 22, 2005, 04:43 AM

Hey, to all you Nebraska guys, don't forget CompUSA in Omaha. I make a trip every time I'm in the area. I'll be heading in tomorrow to see if they have the new hardware. As for iWork, I got it today. I'll hold out my final judgement until I have time to get use to it. My first impression is that it is very un-Apple like. Text formatting is cumbersome and menus just don't seem to be in the right place. It feels like a shareware app that i would try for a week and dump. I really hope it gets better, I was hoping to drop Word.

Fritzi · Jan 22, 2005, 04:57 AM

Could anyone please post the build numbers of Pages and Keynote2?

Thanks!

Mr Heliums · Jan 22, 2005, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Fritzi:
Could anyone please post the build numbers of Pages and Keynote2?

Thanks!

Could I ask why?

tterp · Jan 22, 2005, 06:32 AM

Pages and Keynote doesn�t work with Cocoaspell, they better fix this asap before it hits countries with languages not in the Mac OS X spelling-API - the programs are useless to them as it is.

/tterp

Fritzi · Jan 22, 2005, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Mr Heliums:
Could I ask why?

Sure. My ordered copy is due in one week over here in Europe. Since I was so excited I couldn't wait and acquired a pre-release version to play around with. Now, there are some video playback issues (video has some greenish parts) that I hope will be resolved in my package next week...

macintologist · Jan 22, 2005, 08:05 AM

How does Pages hold up as a Word replacement? In Word all I do is normal word processing, take notes, sometimes use tables, Find & Replace using variables and asterix, and that's about it.

Can Pages have a page-width zoom like in Word, where the Zoom is dependent on how much you drag the window open. So if you drag the window to fill your whole screen, the Zoom automatically increases to 144% or something. Can Pages do this?

walrusjb · Jan 22, 2005, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by tkmd:
Im trying out the keynote 2 right now a problem has already arisen. If I type a word on the front sheet the program (a medical term) not in the dictionary the cpu becomes pegged at 100% and in 2 minutes the progam quits! WTF? I trashed the old keynote program and preference. Any other idea's Is this happening to anyone else?

Not here. Have you tried a permissions repair/reboot since you installed it?

Cadaver · Jan 22, 2005, 09:29 AM

My quick 2�...

Keynote 2 = kick ass. Think everything good about Keynote 1 plus everything good about PowerPoint 2004.

Pages = cross between word processor and page layout program like Microsoft Publisher. Not yet sure how good of a pure word processor it will be. I'll have to play with it some more. Did OK in importing some generic Word documents, with only slight alterations in formatting (but no worse than apps like NeoOffice/OpenOffice, Mellel, Nisus, etc). Definately a nice page-layout program for people who need something flexible, but for whom InDesign is too much or too expensive (and Quark, given its price, is not even worth mentioning). Clearly, Pages is designed as a layout program with word processor abilities, vs. Word's word processing first, with layout abilities. Not yet sure which will be best for me in the long run.

MacGorilla · Jan 22, 2005, 10:01 AM

I am using it as a word processor and it reminds me of FrameMaker, which is a good thing. It seems very powerful and easy to use. Lots of little features that make life easier, such as a place to put revision #, author and comments. Makes tracking my various drafts a breeze.

tkmd · Jan 22, 2005, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by walrusjb:
Not here. Have you tried a permissions repair/reboot since you installed it?

No I tracked it down to coccoaspell. CoccoAspell worked with Pages but in Keynote crashed the app if there was a spelling error.

bbales · Jan 22, 2005, 11:10 AM

I'm doing some playing around with Pages. At first, it was so different from APpleWorks that I was overwhelmed. Now I've figured out more of how to make it look the way I want.

One MAJOR complaint: spelling. First of all, the keyboard shortcut has been changed to apple-semicolon. I've been using AW in all of its manifestations since MacWrite. The shortcut has ALWAYS been the same (apple and =). WHy on earth would they change that?

But I can adapt to that -- after all, MacWrite had a feature allowing you to skip over two or three words, and that feature was eliminated years ago. I still miss it, though.

But inexplicably, when you do check spelling, you don't get a way to easily add words to your own dictionary. I know it's there and I still have to experiment with it to figure it all out, but I guess my point is, it shouldn't be that much work!

So far I'm very much on the fence for using this for general word processing. I can see some of the benefits for hybrid kinds of documents, but I would have preferred to see more sense in the word processing functions.

That said, I'm going to keep playing. I dont' want to dismiss it without giving it a fair chance. Another downside is that I'm going to have to re-create keyboard shortcuts. I have shortcuts (using QuickKeys) for such standard tasks as inserting the date and getting a word count. Recreating these is going to be a little trickier.

Hairllama · Jan 22, 2005, 11:46 AM

My biggest problem so far is the way I have to open yet another pallet to change fonts, set justification, etc. I miss having the most critical formatting tools on the toolbar. Also if you turn off the "show templates for new docs" in the preferences, I can't find a way to choose a template without changing prefs again. There's no expandable menu, nothing. Pages seems really dependent on having all these extra pallets hanging around. I guess Steve is trying to get me to upgrade to wide screen displays. Overall, Pages seems rushed and unfinished.

Here's my next beef; why call two bundled programs iWork. Don't you really need more than two apps to bundle them in a suite. Also iWork just sounds silly. Maybe iWorks, or how about "Two Programs in a Box".

macintologist · Jan 22, 2005, 11:57 AM

Can Pages have a page-width zoom like in Word, where the Zoom is dependent on how much you drag the window open. So if you drag the window to fill your whole screen, the Zoom automatically increases to 144% or something. Can Pages do this?

If yes, I'm buying it. If no, I'm sticking with Word

MacGorilla · Jan 22, 2005, 11:59 AM

You can change font, alignment, etc from the Format menu. I haven't had to use a pallet yet for formatting.

midwinter · Jan 22, 2005, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by macintologist:
Can Pages have a page-width zoom like in Word, where the Zoom is dependent on how much you drag the window open. So if you drag the window to fill your whole screen, the Zoom automatically increases to 144% or something. Can Pages do this?

If yes, I'm buying it. If no, I'm sticking with Word

That's an option in the view menu. Once you select "fit width," when you resize the document, it'll automatically adjust zoom.

midwinter · Jan 22, 2005, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Hairllama:
My biggest problem so far is the way I have to open yet another pallet to change fonts, set justification, etc.

Format>Font
Format>Text

There are even keyboard shortcuts for alignment.

But it's a fair complaint that even in the customize toolbar options, there's nothing there for font size and alignment.

Here's my next beef; why call two bundled programs iWork. Don't you really need more than two apps to bundle them in a suite. Also iWork just sounds silly. Maybe iWorks, or how about "Two Programs in a Box".

Wasn't Office originally Word and Excel?

midwinter · Jan 22, 2005, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by bbales:
But inexplicably, when you do check spelling, you don't get a way to easily add words to your own dictionary. I know it's there and I still have to experiment with it to figure it all out, but I guess my point is, it shouldn't be that much work!

control+click>learn word

Stecchino · Jan 22, 2005, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Hairllama:
Hey, to all you Nebraska guys, don't forget CompUSA in Omaha. I make a trip every time I'm in the area. I'll be heading in tomorrow to see if they have the new hardware. As for iWork, I got it today. ...

CompUSA! I did forget it.

MacGorilla · Jan 22, 2005, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by midwinter:
That's an option in the view menu. Once you select "fit width," when you resize the document, it'll automatically adjust zoom.

I have mine at 125% which is great for my older eyes

insha · Jan 22, 2005, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by macintologist:
Can Pages have a page-width zoom like in Word, where the Zoom is dependent on how much you drag the window open. So if you drag the window to fill your whole screen, the Zoom automatically increases to 144% or something. Can Pages do this?

If yes, I'm buying it. If no, I'm sticking with Word

Yes it does. Just make sure that the "Fit Width" option is checked and then the page will resize according to the width of the window.

EDIT: oops, did not read midwinter's post before posting.