[dfiler]

Originally posted by cpac:
um? last I checked they were there, and pretty damn big.

It is a logical fallacy to conclude that all black cars are long simply because limousines are long.

Just as car color has no effect on car size, brushed metal has absolutely no effect on window borders whatsoever. There isn�t even any such thing as �window border size� in OS X�s windowing system. There is no border region, only title bar, and content region.

[andretan]

I just hope it has built-in support for themes -- without installing any 3rd party software

[MasonMcD]

Here's a picture of metallized mail.

[nforcer]

Originally posted by andretan:
I just hope it has built-in support for themes -- without installing any 3rd party software

I hope first party theme support comes too. But I doubt it. Getting back to the issue...

The whole brushed metal thing is not very well defined. Due to the lack of specific description in the guidelines about when to use it, as critics predicted, brushed metal is being grossly overused in apps. If Apple were to make 10.3 entirely brushed metal with the way brushed metal looks now, I personally think Mac OS X would have an interface worse than the interface of that fisher price piece of crap called Windows XP.

I really don't get it. On one hand, Apple is very protective about its proprietary Aqua interface. Apple deals out cease and desist orders to theme makers like a pimp deals out hos. It goes after software developers for other platforms that mimic the Aqua design with an iron fist, and wants it so there can only be a single, recognizable "Aqua".

These actions make good business sense... establish your interface so people can instantly recognize your product. Get people to start associating with Macs again. And encourage "the other" OS developers to come up with something of their own.

But then Apple comes along with brushed metal which is very unlike Aqua. In effect, brushed metal completely destroys GUI consistency, and seemingly, at the same time, severely hinders Apple's goal of brand recognition. It's harder to get people to associate with 2 interface styles, much less 1.

Instead of giving developers and users a framework for creating their own themes to use on a per application basis, we have the choice of switching the look of certain (cocoa) applications between TWO Apple sanctioned "themes". A theme called Aqua, and a theme called "Aqua with a brushed metal background".

If Apple only insists on supporting these two "themes" that would be retarded. It would be like being able to only open 2 tabs in Safari, and the second tab just inverts the colors of the first page. Or something.

So in conclusion (what a tired way to conclude something), having 2 choices (brushed metal and aqua) is just inconsistent, and just retarded (Keanu Reeves would describe it like "My OS has 2 themes, haha. Whoa!"). Bring on a System-wide, Apple supported, theme framework!

(of course, this "system-wide brushed metal" crap is all based on a rumor from an unreliable source. But I still want themes )

[dfiler]

Originally posted by nforcer:
I really don't get it. On one hand, Apple is very protective about its proprietary Aqua interface. Apple deals out cease and desist orders to theme makers like a pimp deals out hos. It goes after software developers for other platforms that mimic the Aqua design with an iron fist, and wants it so there can only be a single, recognizable "Aqua".
...
But then Apple comes along with brushed metal which is very unlike Aqua. In effect, brushed metal completely destroys GUI consistency, and seemingly, at the same time, severely hinders Apple's goal of brand recognition. It's harder to get people to associate with 2 interface styles, much less 1.

There is very little difference between standard aqua and brushed metal. Draggable region disparity is the only one I can think of. Their are a few glitches with toolbars at this point but those should be resolved soon.

Do you actually think that the difference between the two is confusing users? I've witnessed novice users try to drag aqua windows by clicking on the content area. A milisecond later, they dragged it from the title bar and seldom make the same mistake again. Brushed metal does an excellent job of knurling draggable regions. In the platinum days, this was accomblished with pin stripes in the title bar and diagonal lines in the window resize widget.

There is definately a trade off here. Too many themes and the Apple brand suffers. Too many themes may also lead to functionaly different interfaces. Yet, some apps can bennefit from a choice in themes. Safari's brushed metal does a better job of framing page content into a single conceptual unit recoginized immediately with a single peripheral glance.

Will having a single theme confuse users: no
Will 1000 themes confuse users: sometimes
Will two themes confuse users (aqua+BM): ?

It seems that Apple has chosen wisely. Just enough 'themes' to provide developers a useful option yet not enough themes to cause problems. Third parties have filled the remaining gaps for people who truley need themes.

This assertion, that aqua vs brushed metal causes confusion, is competely ridiculous. Brushed metal windows do not confuse or even surprise novice users.


People can find the handle on a car door no matter what color the car is painted. Its when the handle changes location, shape, and/or function that usability is hampered.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

I really don't care if all the windows are metal but I can't see the menu bar and dropdown menus being metal.

[techtrucker]

Originally posted by MasonMcD:
Here's a picture of metallized mail.

Thanks...it's not too bad, really.

Steve W

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by Vanquish:
who cares ? we have themes don't we ?

Exactly. I'm running Watercolor blue... And before that it was either Sosumi or Milk.

I just opened up Mail to see what a "true aqua interface" looks like, according to tikki, then I realized my OS has been tampered with. No Aqua here.

[MindFad]

Don't like the all metal idea at all. Oh well, it's been all SmoothStripes Gloss for a while now. (Thanks, Max!)

[nforcer]

Originally posted by dfiler:
This assertion, that aqua vs brushed metal causes confusion, is competely ridiculous.

I never asserted that brushed metal causes confusion. I said I don't see a lot of logic behind Apple providing 2 "themes" (even though one is just a changed background with the bottom corners of the window rounded, and more draggable region like you mentioned) when they have worked so hard to protect the integrity and "pureness" of Aqua. Right now it's as if things are sort of half-baked. You can get themes with third party support, but they could break at anytime. Brushed metal, on the other hand, is "built in" to the system. Since Apple has broken their tradition of "Aqua only" by allowing a brushed metal "theme" for windows of certain apps with 10.2, why not go all the way and implement full theme support for 10.3? And if the rumor is true, what's the point in changing over completely to brushed metal in 10.3?

To offer two choices to something that should otherwise be user defined and selectable is just kind of odd to me. It's like putting on clothes. I mean, what if you opened your closet and you could only choose between a black turtleneck and jeans or a pinstriped suit. I mean, to be confined to that selection... hmm, I think I've figured out who is behind this madness now...

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Liudger:
Safari has no border

Really? Think so? Click the liitle book icon on your bookmarks bar. That's what they are referring to.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by dfiler:
It is a logical fallacy to conclude that all black cars are long simply because limousines are long.

Just as car color has no effect on car size, brushed metal has absolutely no effect on window borders whatsoever. There isn?t even any such thing as ?window border size? in OS X?s windowing system. There is no border region, only title bar, and content region.

Ah, see my post above.

[nforcer]

Originally posted by techtrucker:
Thanks...it's not too bad, really.

Steve W

Except... the resize rect is much too big and overlaps part of the NSTextView. The captions of disabled items in the toolbar are harder to read than when on the standard aqua background (especially applies for disabled toolbar icons near the edges where brushed metal gets darker... like the Delete item). And the resize widget with a dot doesn't seem as refined as the Aqua resize widget... although that's just me.

[dfiler]

Originally posted by KidRed:
Ah, see my post above.

And metalness still has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with border size.

All apps can have any size of 'border' no matter whether they are metal or not.

Originally posted by nForcer:
To offer two choices to something that should otherwise be user defined and selectable is just kind of odd to me.

When you start with the assumption that themes should be 'user defined and selectable', than hard-coding two themes would be odd. However, the initial assumption is something which is being disputed in this thread.

Apple doesn't have to choose between a single look and complete theming capability. Their choice to offer two standard alternatives does not imply that a zillion alternatives would be even better.

Another analog:
Businesses usually mandate the color of paper used for their printed or copied documents. It is quite reasonable for the company to mandate particular colors for particular tasks and to provide guidelines for when workers are permitted to choose. It is also reasonable to limit these choices to two colors.

It may be that the optinum number of stock themes is 3 or 4 or perhaps even 11. Yet, I've yet to hear any real justification for a particular number other than...

'I want themes' or 'Aqua must be pure'.

[beni]

AArrrgggg
Brushed metal depresses me. I absolutely hate it. I started hating it the day QuickTime changed from being a simple "content centric" app to being a nasty-trying-to-look-like-a-physical-device thing. And what's up with final Cut? it's neither Brushed metal, nor Aqua.

I want a pure Aqua experience.

Why Apple? Why?

Btw. I use the Smooth Stripes theme (A bit of a contradiction, I know), which is wonderful. You should all try it.

[ambush]

I chose Camino over Saf mainly because of the ugly brushed metal UI

[Morenix]

And what's up with final Cut?

FCP is for professional use. Most of professional people don't like themes, but simple interfaces.

Mac OS 9 interface it's a good example of simple interface at all.

[beni]

Originally posted by Morenix:
And what's up with final Cut?

FCP is for professional use. Most of professional people don't like themes, but simple interfaces.

And photoshop, Illustrator and Quark is not??

Aqua is a simple interface. There is certainly a lot of room for improvement, but in my opinion, it is a well though out interface.
I think consistency is very important.

[squish]

Btw. I use the Smooth Stripes theme (A bit of a contradiction, I know), which is wonderful. You should all try it.

Black text is easier to read against a white background rather than an inconsistent dark grey background that gets lighter in the middle of the window. Look at iPhoto. Some of the text is beveled. it's hideous and makes it harder to read.

My point saying that all brushed metal windows have huge borders wasn't entirely true, you're right that some apps don't have borders.

I was just saying that most of the apps that apple makes (address book, iphoto, itunes, ical, ichat, idvd, imovie, etc.) have useless borders around the window edges.

I think another point to make is that most content in windows is white. When I use a metal window (like an ichat IM window) the borders just *feel* constricting and tight. Using Adium is nicer because there are NO borders. If Adium chat windows were metal, it would look awkward (at least to me) to have metal on the title, middle and bottom bars, and then have the rest white.

That's why brushed metal looks big and clunky to me. Sometimes it just *feels* like it's taking up too much space, and sometimes (a lot of times) it actually is.

[Morenix]

Aqua is a simple interface. There is certainly a lot of room for improvement, but in my opinion, it is a well though out interface.
I think consistency is very important.

Aqua isn't so simple.
Aqua controls, spaces and menus are too big and colorful.
Applications that meets profissional needs, have too much arrays of controls (text fields & labels, radio & check boxes, etc). These applications are forced to implement self-controls due the Aqua interface.

[dfiler]

Originally posted by squish:
That's why brushed metal looks big and clunky to me. Sometimes it just *feels* like it's taking up too much space, and sometimes (a lot of times) it actually is.

Some of what is at issue here is the relation between GUI design and screen size/resolution. While the 'borders' you hate can be aggravating for people with small screens, they are good for people with large screens and poor vision or hand-eye coordination.

Aqua is well suited for apps that use little if any white space between widgets. Mail.app is an excellent example of an App with zero white space.

White space is a term I am borrowing from the field of visual design. It refers to the empty content area around text and images (or widgets). The optimal amount of white space differs for each app and is seldom zero. This is one of the hardest parts of design to quantify and to reach consensus about. Too little white space and relationships between different parts of the content are obscured. Too much white space and saccade (visual-scan) speed is decreased.

Since widgets such as text fields and table views contain many pure white pixels, standard-aqua white space is less suitable for its intended purpose. One characteristic of brushed metal is that its empty content regions are more visually distinguished from contained widgets. However, the introduction of white space between widgets in a window tends to necessitate white space around the window edges.

These are the 'borders' that some people find distasteful. They aren't required, but designers, when left to their own devices, are likely to end up with similar brushed metal designs; ones which have borders. If everyone had the exact same screen size, white space usage would be much less of an issue.

[SubGeniux]

I don't know, but I just dislike the b/metal theme overral. It does have it's place but I just find myself using a 3rd party tool to switch it to the striped look, which I prefer a million times more.
B/meal is clunky, horrible, scraggy, uninteresting looking, looks like it's been hacked together by a 4 year old alien child; it is just cheap looking. It looks much worse than the platinum of the olde days, striped aqua is a godsend for me, going back to os9, or any other OS just makes me realise how much i love and prefer the striped look, not that i need reminding.

Safari-stiped = professional, tasteful, clean and simple

Safari-brushed = crappy, clunky , weird lokin oddity

Anyhoo, each to their own, but one of the reasons I moved to X, apart from its other strengths, was the great looking GUI.
Nuff said

subgeniux