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Socialists win big in Spain
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rambo47
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:08 PM
 
With 79% of the votes counted the Socialist Party has apparently overtaken the majority Popular Party. Popular Party-controlled seats drop from 183 to 147 while the Socialists now control 164 seats in the 350-seat Parliament. Folks are crediting the recent terrorist attacks as a major reason for voting against the incumbents, blaming their support for the war in Iraq as having invited this recent tragedy.

I don't know enough about the policies of the Popular Party with regards to economics or social issues to really know what else influenced the election, but in any case this is a major western European government moving to Socialism. Is this a trend in western Europe? Has President Bush lost an ally in the U.S.'s involvement in the middle east?
     
theolein
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:10 PM
 
According to the BBC the Spanish Socialist Party has won the election. Up until the last week, the Conservatives were in the lead with quite a strong margin and the Socialists only starting to narrow that lead to within in three points before the bombing last week.

The bombings were initially blamed on ETA, the Basque seperatist group that has been carying on a campaign of terrorism for more than 30 years. The Conservative government initially seemd to be steering towards ETA, although it cannot be claimed that they tried to withhold any evidence. An attack by ETA would have benefitted them in that the populace sees the current government's anti-ETA campaign as good. An attack by Al Qaida would have negative effects because the vast majority of the Spanish populace (90%) were against the war in Iraq and would such an attack as a consequence thereof.

It seems, now that the Socialists have won, as if the attack did in fact have an effect on democracy by influencing the outcome of a national election.

Feel free to discuss, attack the Spanish, praise them or to just pick you noses.
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theolein
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:16 PM
 
Originally posted by rambo47:
...
I don't know enough about the policies of the Popular Party with regards to economics or social issues to really know what else influenced the election, but in any case this is a major western European government moving to Socialism. Is this a trend in western Europe? Has President Bush lost an ally in the U.S.'s involvement in the middle east?
There really isn't anything to worry about. The Socialists have been in power in Spain before (they lost the last two elections) and if they mess things up, they'll lose the next elections. It is, after all, a democracy.

Is it a trend in Western Europe? No. France is ruled by the conservatives, and so is Italy. Germany is Social democrat and the Uk is as well. So some are and some aren't. Nothing for politically confused and paranoid to worry about.

Has Bush lost an ally in the Iraq mess? 90% of the Spanish population were against the war, so the question you should be asking is if Bush ever had any ally there in the first place?
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fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:35 PM
 
It's a tragedy when fear becomes the main driver in an election. People who changed their votes because they were afraid re-electing the current administration would lead to more terrorism are cowards.
     
angaq0k
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:45 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
It's a tragedy when fear becomes the main driver in an election. People who changed their votes because they were afraid re-electing the current administration would lead to more terrorism are cowards.
I read something different.

They wanted a different government. Period.

If the previous one had been so good, they would have put it back in power I am sure.

Your interpretation is totally out of line.

Let's hear the Spanish people talk about it themselves...
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
daimoni
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:52 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 11, 2004 at 12:26 AM. )
     
voodoo
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:56 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
Has Bush lost an ally in the Iraq mess? 90% of the Spanish population were against the war, so the question you should be asking is if Bush ever had any ally there in the first place?
That is the case in Spain. The nation was never a Bush ally.
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TheMosco
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:56 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
It's a tragedy when fear becomes the main driver in an election. People who changed their votes because they were afraid re-electing the current administration would lead to more terrorism are cowards.
I also read it differently. 90 percent of people opposed the war yet they went into it anyway. Then they get attacked because of their involvement apparently. How is voting against the people that brought you into a war you didn't support being a coward? Thats the whole point a of democracy.
     
lil'babykitten
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Mar 14, 2004, 06:59 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
It's a tragedy when fear becomes the main driver in an election. People who changed their votes because they were afraid re-electing the current administration would lead to more terrorism are cowards.


About 90% of the Spanish population were against the War in Iraq. Despite that, their government signed up for it with Bush and Blair. I'd say that played an important part in the election results.
     
voodoo
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:02 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
And what do you think will be the main driver in the USA's upcoming Presidential election?
(Hint: it's not bunnies and puppies)

Hey, it's easy for you to call them cowards, but at least those people live in a country with free and open elections. As an American, that makes me jealous.
I understand how you feel.

Strangely the PP (rightwing) received 44.52% of the votes in 2000 and got 183 congressional seats - more than half of them, yet less than half of the votes..
I don't know how the Spanish system is set up. Now it seems PSOE (socialists) has 42.65% of the votes and only 163 congressional seats.

There are 346 seats in total.

www.elpais.es
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slow moe
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:06 PM
 
Umm... excuse me, but umm.. you were attacked by al-Qaida not only for your gov't being allied with the US, but also because Spain took part in the Crusades a thousand years ago.

But whatever makes you feel better at the moment...
Lysdexics have more fnu.
     
lil'babykitten
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:12 PM
 
Well, MacNNs right-wing are pissed. At least the Popular Party in Spain reacted honorably to their loss.
     
angaq0k
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:15 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Well, MacNNs right-wing are pissed. At least the Popular Party in Spain reacted honorably to their loss.
Yep!

There is that thing called democracy...

;o)
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
voodoo
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:23 PM
 
Originally posted by slow moe:
Umm... excuse me, but umm.. you were attacked by al-Qaida not only for your gov't being allied with the US, but also because Spain took part in the Crusades a thousand years ago.

But whatever makes you feel better at the moment...
So the US was also in the Crusades? Ah of course.. who can forget Sir Billy Bob?

Making excuses seems to be the most important talent an American apologist ahem Bushist needs to have. No wonder. There is so much to excuse that you better be quick and be done with it as soon as possible so the list of things to excuse doesn't run out of control..

I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:27 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
So the US was also in the Crusades? Ah of course..
Actually, I think that was a reference to the alleged al Qaeda letter from a few days ago, which mentioned the "settling of old accounts" as well as the Coalition of the Brownnosers.

-s*
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:32 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:


About 90% of the Spanish population were against the War in Iraq. Despite that, their government signed up for it with Bush and Blair. I'd say that played an important part in the election results.
The Popular Party was leading the polls before the bombings. After the bombings that all changed. People changed their votes to appease to terrorists, cowardice won the day. Period. Try to put whatever spin on it you want, that's what happened.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:36 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
It's a tragedy when fear becomes the main driver in an election. People who changed their votes because they were afraid re-electing the current administration would lead to more terrorism are cowards.
word.

To let the terrorists influence your vote is to let the terrorists win.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:41 PM
 
To many Americans, all political developments must be summarizable in three words or less.

Any complexity beyond that is ignored.

-s*
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:47 PM
 
Any political development that takes more than 3 words to describe is being described with B.S.
     
lil'babykitten
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Any political development that takes more than 3 words to describe is being described with B.S.
That was BS.
     
Clone two
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:51 PM
 
<>
( Last edited by Clone two; Mar 15, 2004 at 06:05 AM. )
     
angaq0k
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Mar 14, 2004, 07:56 PM
 
Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
The Popular Party was leading the polls before the bombings. After the bombings that all changed. People changed their votes to appease to terrorists, cowardice won the day. Period. Try to put whatever spin on it you want, that's what happened.
They changed their vote because their government was using a not so subtle subterfuge to win their elections.

They lied. (I mean they focused on the least likely possibility when all suspicions lead elsewhere)

In the end they lost and accepted it.

Period.

People won
Party bullsh*t 0
( Last edited by angaq0k; Mar 14, 2004 at 08:04 PM. )
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
theolein
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:20 PM
 
I was surprised that the Spaniards reacted the way they did. I would have thought that most nations would react with anger towards those who had attacked them, and that they would support a government that would confront such an attack. So I would have agreed with Alan and fizzle, BUT, then I thought about it and realised that the Spaniards would have supported the government if the terrorists had been ETA, so in that regard they are not cowards. The spanish people clearly did not want the trumped up war against Iraq. They are angry that their government ignored the clear will of the people, and 90% of the people is quite a large majority. They are also angry because they see the government as having tried to purposefully put the blame on ETA before knowing any details whatsoever.

Anyway, I wouldn't call the Spaniards cowards. Not wanting to get involved in a war based on lies is intelligent if anything, the way I see it. I think the Americans were quite stupid to believe the rubbish that Bush told them.
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angaq0k
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:23 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
Anyway, I wouldn't call the Spaniards cowards. Not wanting to get involved in a war based on lies is intelligent if anything, the way I see it.
word.

To let party bull*** influence your vote is to let the bull*** win.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
theolein
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:24 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Any political development that takes more than 3 words to describe is being described with B.S.
This says more about your level of intelligence and comprehension than you realise, Alan.
weird wabbit
     
spacefreak
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:24 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
I read something different.

They wanted a different government. Period.

If the previous one had been so good, they would have put it back in power I am sure.

Your interpretation is totally out of line.

Let's hear the Spanish people talk about it themselves...
A week ago, before the attacks, the Popular party was projected by all accounts to win by a 4-5% margin. So they didn't seem to want a different government last week.

It's sad to see terrorism "win", and even sadder to see a nation cower in fear and refuse to fight. Terrorists now know they can control Spain's actions.

Besides, what would al Qaeda have to do with Spain's decision to support the Iraq war? I thought there were no ties between the two...
     
angaq0k
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:28 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
It's sad to see terrorism "win", and even sadder to see a nation cower in fear and refuse to fight. Terrorists now know they can control Spain's actions.
It's sad to see bull *** "win", and even sadder to see a nation cower in fear and refuse to be respected. Bull***ters now know that they can't control Spain as a nation.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
theolein
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:29 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
A week ago, before the attacks, the Popular party was projected by all accounts to win by a 4-5% margin. So they didn't seem to want a different government last week.

It's sad to see terrorism "win", and even sadder to see a nation cower in fear and refuse to fight. Terrorists now know they can control Spain's actions.
Superficially, I would agree with you, but what would you say about ETA in that case. The Spanish government has not been easy on them.
weird wabbit
     
TheMosco
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:29 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
word.

To let the terrorists influence your vote is to let the terrorists win.
Isn't that was bush is trying to do?
     
voodoo
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:32 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
Besides, what would al Qaeda have to do with Spain's decision to support the Iraq war? I thought there were no ties between the two...
AQ is an organization full of insane, reality detached fanatics. You can't understand why they do things with logical reasoning.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
spacefreak
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:43 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
Superficially, I would agree with you, but what would you say about ETA in that case. The Spanish government has not been easy on them.
The ETA is specific to Spain, and they almost always target government officials and security forces, not civilians. I was more or less referring to foreign-based terrorism, or al Qaeda to be more specific.

Here we an apparent al Qaeda attack with the message "this is because you supported the US in Iraq". So the people of Spain cower as designed.
     
voodoo
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:49 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
The ETA is specific to Spain, and they almost always target government officials and security forces, not civilians. I was more or less referring to foreign-based terrorism, or al Qaeda to be more specific.

Here we an apparent al Qaeda attack with the message "this is because you supported the US in Iraq". So the people of Spain cower as designed.
not really.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
slow moe
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:50 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
So the US was also in the Crusades? Ah of course.. who can forget Sir Billy Bob?

Making excuses seems to be the most important talent an American apologist ahem Bushist needs to have. No wonder. There is so much to excuse that you better be quick and be done with it as soon as possible so the list of things to excuse doesn't run out of control..
http://www.google.com/search?q=al-Qa...utf-8&oe=utf-8

Whatever
Lysdexics have more fnu.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 14, 2004, 08:56 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
Here we an apparent al Qaeda attack with the message "this is because you supported the US in Iraq". So the people of Spain cower as designed.
Does it really need to be pointed out AGAIN that the people of Spain DIDN'T SUPPORT THE US IN IRAQ?
     
swrate
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Mar 14, 2004, 09:19 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
A week ago, before the attacks, the Popular party was projected by all accounts to win by a 4-5% margin. So they didn't seem to want a different government last week.

It's sad to see terrorism "win", and even sadder to see a nation cower in fear and refuse to fight. Terrorists now know they can control Spain's actions.

Besides, what would al Qaeda have to do with Spain's decision to support the Iraq war? I thought there were no ties between the two...

Voting PS instead of PP does not mean a nation refuses to fight terrorism.

and what does al Qaeda have to do with Spain's decision?
they are using Spain's implication as an excuse.

the ties: didn't Spain let their grounds/skies open for the US Air Force to attack Iraq?
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 14, 2004, 09:23 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
AQ is an organization full of insane, reality detached fanatics. You can't understand why they do things with logical reasoning.
I'd say that's dismissive. AQ is a group of people who are out to gain power and control through exploiting the beliefs of others, fear and intimidation of the public and spectacular displays of violence intentionally directed at innocent people. Insane? In the US court system, insanity means one is not responsible for his/her own actions and cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. AQ knows exactly what it's doing and is completely responsible for its actions. I think I understand why they do most things: They want power and control. The only thing they've done that didn't make sense (in terms of enhancing their power) was the way they lashed out at the Turks and Saudis a few months ago.
     
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Mar 14, 2004, 09:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Does it really need to be pointed out AGAIN that the people of Spain DIDN'T SUPPORT THE US IN IRAQ?
Um, they elected a government to represent their beliefs. They can't cop a plea *now*

Of course Spain supported the US liberation of Iraq - there's plenty of evidence to support that fact.

Is not the government of Spain comprised of Spanish citizens?
     
fizzlemynizzle
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Mar 14, 2004, 09:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Does it really need to be pointed out AGAIN that the people of Spain DIDN'T SUPPORT THE US IN IRAQ?
But Spain's government did. AQ timed their "punishment" of the people for the government's stance less than a week before an election in the hope it would result in a fear-driven kneejerk reaction. And that's exactly what happened.

Next time you accuse Americans of being political sheep, you might want to check your own backyard first..
     
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Mar 14, 2004, 10:05 PM
 
Will the upcoming "black winds of death" help Bush or Kerry?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 14, 2004, 10:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
Will the upcoming "black winds of death" help Bush or Kerry?
It'll help the one that is against terrorists.
     
slow moe
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Mar 14, 2004, 10:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
Will the upcoming "black winds of death" help Bush or Kerry?
I thought Kerry was the "Black Wind of Death", no?
Lysdexics have more fnu.
     
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Mar 14, 2004, 10:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
It'll help the one that is against terrorists.
I agree.

OBL wants a fight, doesn't he?
     
theolein
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Mar 14, 2004, 10:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Um, they elected a government to represent their beliefs. They can't cop a plea *now*

Of course Spain supported the US liberation of Iraq - there's plenty of evidence to support that fact.

Is not the government of Spain comprised of Spanish citizens?
I don't know how things work in the US, but from what I have seen, regardless of which party is in power, if the vast majority of the populace is against some issue, then the politicians generally rush to appease those wishes. As an example of this I'll give Bush's initial refusal to stand before the committee investigating the 9/11 attacks. When this proved to push his approval rating down a few points he reversed his decision.

In Spain, it was well recorded that 90% of the population was against the war in Iraq. Yet the government went AGAINST the wishes of the people. Now they are paying the price for not doing the bidding of the population.

If the Conservatives had won the election, would you then call the Spaniards cowards? If the Socialists don't remove their troops from Iraq, will you still be calling the Spaniards cowards?

Personally I think the American right wing will attack anyone, at least verbally, who doesn't do their bidding, no matter how ludicrous, false or abusive that bidding is. Perhaps the Spaniards ARE cowards, perhaps they are simply angry with a government that didn't do their bidding. I think that the Spaniards are damn right in not wanting to follow Bush into the insane adventure in Iraq.

Bravery is one thing, stupidity another, and the ones who are looking stupid at this point in time are those who fell for Bush's lies and propaganda in invading Iraq.
weird wabbit
     
slow moe
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Mar 14, 2004, 11:02 PM
 
How many socialists does it take to change a light bulb?

One to petition the Ministry of Light for a bulb, fifty to establish the state production quota, two hundred militia to force the factory unions to allow production of the bulb, and one to surreptitiously dial an '800' number to order an American light bulb.
Lysdexics have more fnu.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 14, 2004, 11:13 PM
 
Being a coward is not preferable to being dead.

It's the same thing.

You exist, but leave no evidence that you do.

Cowards are never wrong and never right.

They're never anything at all.
     
nonhuman
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Mar 15, 2004, 02:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
word.

To let the terrorists influence your vote is to let the terrorists win.
Which is smarter, my brother or a hamster?
     
James Christ
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Mar 15, 2004, 02:19 AM
 
Conservaties = scare developing and poor nations = terrorism

Lefties = make peace with deal making.
     
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Mar 15, 2004, 02:22 AM
 
Originally posted by James Christ:
Conservaties = scare developing and poor nations = terrorism

Lefties = make peace with deal making.
What is a Conservatie?
...
     
nonhuman
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Mar 15, 2004, 02:23 AM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
What is a Conservatie?
A miraculous new invention that increases the lifetimes of your ties by up to 200%!
     
ghost_flash
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Mar 15, 2004, 02:24 AM
 
Originally posted by nonhuman:
A miraculous new invention that increases the lifetimes of your ties by up to 200%!
Can it Conservauntie too?
...
     
 
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