[Hash]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Well, there you go. Here is your answer. You have "a damn attractive nice girl" who you can "call and ask to share a coffee . . .. whenever YOU want". She is not an object of affection for you, she is an object of possession. If this were about affection and not possession you would not be talking about her in this way.

Try treating her as a "damn attractive" HUMAN BEING.

Well, I think I do. I have been nice boss and rewarded her good work. Is it so bad?

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

My ex, who is an executive with Microsoft, had a "relationship" like that with his secretary.

Only one morning she called me up to tell me about a romantic dinner that they'd had and how she planned "to get him away from me." She told me lurid stories about them, dates, places, things fell into place. He insisted that he'd never slept with her, but he admitted his attraction to her and that was enough for me to say, "Good, now we're going to be single so you can 'explore' your feelings for her." I got a divorce attorney the next day, wished him well, and moved out. We are divorced now, of course, for about 10 years.

The secretary? She got fired from Microsoft about a week later.

It's many years later and my ex remarried about 6 years ago and so did I and I love him and wish him well, but that experience was terrible. Thankfully I met a man that is wonderful and even my ex likes him - they golf when he comes to town to visit our son or pick him up - but what a shitty experience all of that was.

Do what you want. But you need to think long and hard about how much your marriage means to you. I'm not saying fire that personal assistant. But if you love your wife and the attraction is that strong then you should consider transferring her.

Good luck.

Cody, I cannot transfer someone and kill their career because I am attracted to them. It is not their fault. It is mine and even then I did not do anything bad. We did not have any romantic dinners and other things you described.

[Cody Dawg]

People, calm down, after all, you can have a coffee with an attractive woman without being prosecuted, can't you?

You're the one gifting this woman based on your attraction to her not on her work, remember?



So how do you expect us to react?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Hash

Yup, I never understood too. Yet, I wanna see how you will deal with such situation. A damn attractive nice girl sitting right next your door everyday, one you can call and ask to share a coffee, or have some chat whenever YOU want (not asking her opinion). I wanna see how long you will keep your thinking unchanged.

This just isn't something you do when you're in a commited relationship.

One obviously can't eliminate all temptation in their lives, however, actively seeking out temptation does nothing but show a lack of respect for your mate and your relationship.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

With my co-worker, I am friendly, courteous, and professional with her and treat her like the peer she is. I also happen to have had sexual fantasies about her. Are you suggesting that fantasizing about a woman completely diminishes her humanity? That to fantasize about a woman for things besides her sexuality is acceptable but when fantasies about sexuality come into play it becomes a diminishment of her humanity and hence unacceptable?

Where I see a difference between Hash and myself is that he is doing all his talking about this women in terms of control. His whole explanation has been couched in the superior/subordinate work-based power structure. And when he talks about her outside of that dynamic he still uses the language of control to describe this woman. Me, I have a co-worker who I find sexually attractive. I don't have an interest in dominating her; I don't feel tempted by power to make her do things that I want when I want them done (which I can't). I don't see her as an object of possession.

Well, if you want to get into certain fields of feminist theory we could talk about the female gaze and the gaze of possession. Is that what you were trying to imply my actions were? Possession via glance?

Maybe you are right. I do remember days, especially in high school and university, when no one as attractive as my assistant, would ever talk to me - I was a loser in this regard. Now, its a bit different and it is a surprise to me. And thats damn hard for me as well. From pure human side, I want to talk with her and see her smile, while from the organization point of view, I am forbidden to do it. I know that those tea chats are not good idea too. And being a good husband, I know that its not good idea at all. The girl, btw, behaves splendidly and always is business-like and very correct, so she never gave a wrong impression. But the whole situation made me think hard about life and what is its meaning.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hash

Maybe you are right. I do remember days, especially in high school and university, when no one as attractive as my assistant, would ever talk to me - I was a loser in this regard. Now, its a bit different and it is a surprise to me. And thats damn hard for me as well. From pure human side, I want to talk with her and see her smile, while from the organization point of view, I am forbidden to do it. I know that those tea chats are not good idea too. And being a good husband, I know that its not good idea at all. The girl, btw, behaves splendidly and always is business-like and very correct, so she never gave a wrong impression. But the whole situation made me think hard about life and what is its meaning.

I would argue having an awareness of one's motivations is as important, if not more so, than the actions performed based on those motivations. So, good for you for doing some of the hard work to figure out why you are liking so much this in-appropriate situation with your executive assistant.

Having said that, I can't stress enough the point that you DO, DO, DO have a choice in what goes on here. You are not compelled by this woman's beauty to act the way you do. So, you need to make some decisions about this situation and how to resolve your personal conflicts with it. And remember, any decisions you make effect you, your wife, your executive assistant, your colleagues, and your corporation.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You're the one gifting this woman based on your attraction to her not on her work, remember?



So how do you expect us to react?

Well, I think that gifts were for good contribution for a project work we had finished by Christmas and then another one later. But you are right, if it was someone else, I would not make such expensive gifts. But I want to stress that the gifts were purely my idea, and in no way hers. She was very surprised to get the gifts. Afterwards, I apologized for excessively expensive gifts and she told me its OK, dont worry. I understood it as she got it correct and understood me being ashamed for my tasteless gifts. Nice woman.

[Cody Dawg]

Just keep it up.

Someday when she doesn't do something that you want or makes a mistake you are not going to be able to correct her. You will have absolutely no leg to stand on.

SHE WILL SO *OWN* YOU.

Oh, and another thing? Take this from a woman: She knows that you are attracted to her and, sorry to break it to you, she's probably lost every ounce of respect she had for you by now for a lot of reasons. The main one being that she knows you're married and you two keep having your semi-flirtatious relationship and that means that your marriage means very little to you and any woman worth her salt will totally disrespect you for that.

She's probably using you and you don't even know it.

[Hash]

You obviously have a good point. But I cannot find any evidence of flirt. Really. Does having a cup of coffee and a chat with your assistant count as flirt? Do gifts count as flirt? I would not say so. And Cody, as every woman, I think, you're too harsh on other girls (and you are attractive too, right?) BTW, if you had a coffee with a man, who likes you (and women feel it, you know), does it count as flirt to you?

[Hash]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

I would argue having an awareness of one's motivations is as important, if not more so, than the actions performed based on those motivations. So, good for you for doing some of the hard work to figure out why you are liking so much this in-appropriate situation with your executive assistant.

Having said that, I can't stress enough the point that you DO, DO, DO have a choice in what goes on here. You are not compelled by this woman's beauty to act the way you do. So, you need to make some decisions about this situation and how to resolve your personal conflicts with it. And remember, any decisions you make effect you, your wife, your executive assistant, your colleagues, and your corporation.

Yes I know. I do have a choice. you know, its frightening to have such a choice. I know one wrong step will completely kill my career and family life. Yet, deep inside, I continue to question the official wisdom. Make no mistakes, it is entirely in my head. No one knows about my thinking, corporation, assistant, other office workers. Even say, lets imagine its someone else, not work related. Still, the issue remains, see? I know I hate the choice, cause I am sure for 99.9% that I will stick to society rules and let other choices disappear. But you know you do not have your fate written in stone. 0.01% will remain and perhaps linger with you till your death - the question "what if..what if". It is not about my assistant. It is about the choices we make. And it makes me sad, you know. Now, I understand my wife much better. I sort of sorry to make her continue our family life and forsake her choices. Now I know how hard it was on her.

[OreoCookie]

Take this:

Originally Posted by Hash

We've been working together for few months. Gifts were made for Christmas (and on occasion of finishing a very important project, for which she made excellent contribution which really saved my a**) and on occasion of a corporate party (Dior cosmetics). She really made excellent job and I wanted to reward her. My boss is I think is happy as far as our projects are going well; I do not report to him everyday and I bet he gives *** about my 5 pm tea chat with my assistant. However, I agree that if there is something tarnishing corporate image, then he would not hesitate for a second. The question is whether smiles of my assistant and our tea chats are a damage to the corporate image And I do not intend to have it evolve further.. though deep inside I would not maybe refuse..but I am far from being sure she ever would permit any kind of private attention.

From purely business point of view, things have been upbeat since her arrival to office and she is an excellent organizer. The previous one has not been that effective though she was much more experienced. People, calm down, after all, you can have a coffee with an attractive woman without being prosecuted, can't you?

And this:

Originally Posted by Hash

Well, I think I do. I have been nice boss and rewarded her good work. Is it so bad?

Add your thread title `What is appropriate?' and you'll have an answer.
Cody Dawg nails it: even though these gifts as such may have been appropriate, it's the meaning they have assumed for you which matters.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Just keep it up.

Someday when she doesn't do something that you want or makes a mistake you are not going to be able to correct her. You will have absolutely no leg to stand on.

SHE WILL SO *OWN* YOU.

Oh, and another thing? Take this from a woman: She knows that you are attracted to her and, sorry to break it to you, she's probably lost every ounce of respect she had for you by now for a lot of reasons. The main one being that she knows you're married and you two keep having your semi-flirtatious relationship and that means that your marriage means very little to you and any woman worth her salt will totally disrespect you for that.

She's probably using you and you don't even know it.

You have a point, although some women like men with power.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

With my co-worker, I am friendly, courteous, and professional with her and treat her like the peer she is. I also happen to have had sexual fantasies about her. Are you suggesting that fantasizing about a woman completely diminishes her humanity? That to fantasize about a woman for things besides her sexuality is acceptable but when fantasies about sexuality come into play it becomes a diminishment of her humanity and hence unacceptable?

Where I see a difference between Hash and myself is that he is doing all his talking about this women in terms of control. His whole explanation has been couched in the superior/subordinate work-based power structure. And when he talks about her outside of that dynamic he still uses the language of control to describe this woman. Me, I have a co-worker who I find sexually attractive. I don't have an interest in dominating her; I don't feel tempted by power to make her do things that I want when I want them done (which I can't). I don't see her as an object of possession.

Well, if you want to get into certain fields of feminist theory we could talk about the female gaze and the gaze of possession. Is that what you were trying to imply my actions were? Possession via glance?

No, I was implying that your post sounded knee jerk PC...not that it necessarily was, it just sounded that way, especially with the little angry face. Whatever dominance-related issues posted here are not my concern at all. I thought your "Human being" remark was ironic in that you had posted something before about a "hot woman". I don't give a damn who's in control.

[Hash]

Yes, i see consensus is that such gifts are not appropriate. There is nothing like flirt (at least for me). There will be no romantic dinners and so on. But I want to continue to give her gifts for her good work and on appropriate occasions. I do not demand anything from her, no any kind of special attention. But giving gifts and seeing someone else being happy is all I want to achieve. It seems donating millions to funds is OK, giving soups to homeless is fine, but giving gifts to an attractive woman is strictly no-no Thats what I am wondering about, the social limits and their strange borders.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Hash

Yes I know. I do have a choice. you know, its frightening to have such a choice. I know one wrong step will completely kill my career and family life. Yet, deep inside, I continue to question the official wisdom. Make no mistakes, it is entirely in my head. No one knows about my thinking, corporation, assistant, other office workers. Even say, lets imagine its someone else, not work related. Still, the issue remains, see? I know I hate the choice, cause I am sure for 99.9% that I will stick to society rules and let other choices disappear. But you know you do not have your fate written in stone. 0.01% will remain and perhaps linger with you till your death - the question "what if..what if". It is not about my assistant. It is about the choices we make. And it makes me sad, you know. Now, I understand my wife much better. I sort of sorry to make her continue our family life and forsake her choices. Now I know how hard it was on her.

No, I understand where you are coming from. Self-doubt is just an asbolutely horrible experience to have but it frequently helps you to grow as a person. Let me tell you my story.

I divorced a woman I loved very much because I couldn't stand being married to her: We weren't right together as a married couple. I walked out of the courthouse the day we were divorced still loving her very much. It took me a long time to get over loving her and to get over my inner struggle regarding the "rightness" of divorcing someone I loved very much. And that was a VERY hard lesson to learn. Even now, several years later, I consider my divorce one of the biggest personal failures in my life--I took the vows and my commitment to her and myself very seriously. But in the end it did work out for the best for us. I still see her occassionally--we travel in the same group of friends--and we are friendly and pleasant. She has what she wants out of life and I have what I want out of life.

So, when you talk about those questions of self-doubt and sacrifice, I have a sense where you are coming from. And it is good this sense of self-doubt is engendering a sense of kindredness with your wife. I am sure she has had many moments herself of self-doubt in her life, including doubts about you and her marriage to you.

I would suggest that you take this experience you are having, think on it, and use it to help you grow to be a more understanding, more compassionate person with those around you, to spend more time "wearing their shoes". I think you will find this will be of great benefit to you in all your inter-personal dealings and will be of especial benefit in your relationship with your wife.

Good Luck to you!

[Hash]

thank you

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

My ex, who is an executive with Microsoft, had a "relationship" like that with his secretary.

And now it's explained why Cody uses a Mac.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Just keep it up.

Someday when she doesn't do something that you want or makes a mistake you are not going to be able to correct her. You will have absolutely no leg to stand on.

SHE WILL SO *OWN* YOU.

Oh, and another thing? Take this from a woman: She knows that you are attracted to her and, sorry to break it to you, she's probably lost every ounce of respect she had for you by now for a lot of reasons. The main one being that she knows you're married and you two keep having your semi-flirtatious relationship and that means that your marriage means very little to you and any woman worth her salt will totally disrespect you for that.

She's probably using you and you don't even know it.

Cody, firstly, any woman you love owns you. Thats true. Cause you do not want to lose her.

Secondly, I am married and I am drinking tea with her and giving her gifts. I do also give gifts to my family and much more expensive ones to my wife. Why would my assistant disrespect me?

Thirdly, while you can say she is using me, in the same way, i am using her excellent professinal services. Thats what counts as well. While the company may not value her contribution highly enough, it means big deal to me

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hash

You obviously have a good point. But I cannot find any evidence of flirt. Really. Does having a cup of coffee and a chat with your assistant count as flirt? Do gifts count as flirt? I would not say so. And Cody, as every woman, I think, you're too harsh on other girls (and you are attractive too, right?) BTW, if you had a coffee with a man, who likes you (and women feel it, you know), does it count as flirt to you?

Women see a lot more than men give them credit for.

They also are a lot nicer than men give them credit for. They'll do a lot of things just to be nice to men they know like them.

You're married. Act professional.

[SSharon]

As others have said, I think it's crucial to tell your wife that you are buying gifts for another woman. Do you ever talk to your wife about her or do you find yourself avoiding her in conversation. On a similar note, do you ever mention your wife when having your coffee/tea chats? If she hears you mentioning your wife it sends a message that you are married (I'm sure she already knows) and committed to her.

How has no one asked for pics by the way, or did I miss it?

[Hash]

Originally Posted by goMac

Women see a lot more than men give them credit for.

They also are a lot nicer than men give them credit for. They'll do a lot of things just to be nice to men they know like them.

You're married. Act professional.

I do get the message in the last paragraph. But could you elaborate more on first 2? It seems to have quite a deep meaning and I would like to understand it clearer.

[thunderous_funker]

The fact that you're her boss is the sticky wicket. If it weren't for that fact we'd simply be talking about any other case of office attraction and sexual tension.








So the clear solution is to resign your post so you can declare your undying love for her with a clear conscience before all. My extensive research into romantic films indicates she will instantly recognize the purity of your love and rush into your newly destitute, mailroom lackey arms.

No. Really. She will. I promise. What are you waiting for?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hash

I do get the message in the last paragraph. But could you elaborate more on first 2? It seems to have quite a deep meaning and I would like to understand it clearer.

If she knows you like her she might be nice to you because... well... you like her. It doesn't mean she doesn't like you back. It just means she's trying not to be mean about it.

I dunno. Maybe there really is a connection. But you can't say you've got your marriage worked out when you're considering cheating.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker

The fact that you're her boss is the sticky wicket. If it weren't for that fact we'd simply be talking about any other case of office attraction and sexual tension.








So the clear solution is to resign your post so you can declare your undying love for her with a clear conscience before all. My extensive research into romantic films indicates she will instantly recognize the purity of your love and rush into your newly destitute, mailroom lackey arms.

No. Really. She will. I promise. What are you waiting for?

Well, nice put as always, thunderous_funker. You know, I do intend to resign from manager position, after 2 years and return to research. With all that administration duties, I was unable to conduct research. Whether I will be employed as mailroom lackey, remains a question to be answered But it is not related with my assistant, who also will leave in next 18 months - because of her MBA studies graduation and leaving for a financial services firm. Thats next logical step in her career and I do fully support her in that. I have seen few people in my life with such iron will and determination, clarity of mind and heart, yet being such attractive females. Reminds me of lady Thatcher, not that I knew her in her 20s I wish her to find a good husband (she complained once she could not find any), and fulfil her dreams, whatever they are, cause for that she was working that hard. I did not help many people in my life; indeed, many consider me to be a cold, calculating person without much emotions. Yet, I do feel great when I help someone, even if it is my assistant. It is unfortunate, that corporate and social norms do not encourage it. But if it stays within limits, I guess, I will have something positive to remember about me being in office as a manager aside from successful projects and my boss satisfied reading my reports and presentations.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by goMac

If she knows you like her she might be nice to you because... well... you like her. It doesn't mean she doesn't like you back. It just means she's trying not to be mean about it.

I dunno. Maybe there really is a connection. But you can't say you've got your marriage worked out when you're considering cheating.

Yeah, thats good. There is really something like that. I guess she knows I like her and she tries to be not mean to me. Thats all.

[thunderous_funker]

In all seriousness, my usual solution for inappropriate crushes (and what you have is obvioulsy a crush and we've all established its inappropriateness) is to confess them. Usually its something that can be laughed about afterwards. Nothing like just saying it and getting it out there to reveal it as harmless and silly.

In fact, I've found that confessing the crush is usually the quickest way of dissolving it.

And in the event that she shares your attraction, you'll both be able to make whatever decisions effect your personal and professional lives with eyes wide open.

[Cody Dawg]

Hash:

For each and every "gift" you give this woman are you buying your WIFE a "gift" too?



Now you should feel a pang of guilt if you are not.

Because, first, your wife is much more important and at least AS important and secondly, men often overlook their wives.



Now, my ex that is the Microsoft exec?

Here is what he does: He has a personal assistant now and he trusts her and what he does - I swear to God - is to throw his credit card on her desk and say, "I appreciate your work lately. Go buy yourself something on me say, up to $200, or go to lunch with your girlfriends." We were just discussing that recently, oddly enough, and he still does it.

That is SO smart.

Because:

1. There is nothing implied in the type of gift
2. The woman gets what SHE wants
3. It is not private "gifting" of an inferior which, in some companies, is taboo
4. It minimizes their personal relationship
5. You can account for it and in some instances write it off as an expense

I'd say you do something similar. If you don't want to give her free rein with a credit card (and I bet you would your wife, right?) then get her a gift certificate(s).

One more thing? Keep a copy of the gift certificates because, believe it or not, some companies will fire your @ss if they find out that you've been gifting your personal assistant. Even if it is innocent it can easily be misconstrued. And, as far as meeting her alone in places? She can so sue your company for sexual harassment at some point. All her lawyer has to say is, "Mr. Hash, have you EVER been alone with Ms. Sexy at ANY point?" At that point it is game, set, and match for you - and your company.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker

In fact, I've found that confessing the crush is usually the quickest way of dissolving it.

Hash, in the interest of Fair and Balanced and with all due respect to t_f, I tried that once and BOY DID IT EVER BACKFIRE. Tread carefully w/ that little item.

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah. Do NOT admit it.

That will totally annhilate ANY respect she has for you and maybe she'll go to YOUR boss and tell him about your "crush." Who knows? Maybe you'll end up working for HER then!

[thunderous_funker]

I was assuming from his posts that they were on good enough terms she wouldn't blackmail him. Obviously if she's that kind of person, you might want to just get another assistant and save yourself the mileage.

The boss thing makes it very delicate, but then again, if its that delicate Hash shouldn't stay her boss. IMO, if you couldn't confortably admit to her that you've had an involuntary, harmless and silly reaction to the kind attention of an attractive younger woman then the situation really is untenable and you shouldn't keep her on your staff.

Something along the lines of "apologize for any weird signals", innocent and harmless reaction to a natural situation and that her value to you as a professional is unquestioned ought to be possible. She'd either take it well, you'd laugh and diffuse the tension and get over it (my experience 80% of the time) or she'd confess to not being comfortable to remain in the situation. Either way, problem resolved.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Hash:

For each and every "gift" you give this woman are you buying your WIFE a "gift" too?



Now you should feel a pang of guilt if you are not.

Because, first, your wife is much more important and at least AS important and secondly, men often overlook their wives.



Now, my ex that is the Microsoft exec?

Here is what he does: He has a personal assistant now and he trusts her and what he does - I swear to God - is to throw his credit card on her desk and say, "I appreciate your work lately. Go buy yourself something on me say, up to $200, or go to lunch with your girlfriends." We were just discussing that recently, oddly enough, and he still does it.

That is SO smart.

Because:

1. There is nothing implied in the type of gift
2. The woman gets what SHE wants
3. It is not private "gifting" of an inferior which, in some companies, is taboo
4. It minimizes their personal relationship
5. You can account for it and in some instances write it off as an expense

I'd say you do something similar. If you don't want to give her free rein with a credit card (and I bet you would your wife, right?) then get her a gift certificate(s).

One more thing? Keep a copy of the gift certificates because, believe it or not, some companies will fire your @ss if they find out that you've been gifting your personal assistant. Even if it is innocent it can easily be misconstrued. And, as far as meeting her alone in places? She can so sue your company for sexual harassment at some point. All her lawyer has to say is, "Mr. Hash, have you EVER been alone with Ms. Sexy at ANY point?" At that point it is game, set, and match for you - and your company.

Cody, of course I give gifts to my wife on similar occasions.
My first gift to the assistant, amazingly, was exactly what your ex did - I gave her 200$ gift certificate
We have been together alone on many occasions, mostly in office. Can't say its criminal offense in any way, cause I had to stay overtime as well she. Thats all.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yeah. Do NOT admit it.

That will totally annhilate ANY respect she has for you and maybe she'll go to YOUR boss and tell him about your "crush." Who knows? Maybe you'll end up working for HER then!

Firstly, I do like the girl, but that does not means i have crush. You people assumed way too much from the gifts. We had only once a dance during corporate party, when I thanked her for coming to the company and thats all. So there will be no admissions of "crush". There aint any, simply put.

[Cody Dawg]

There was enough *something* to post a thread about it, wasn't there?



Anyway, we all wish you the best, Hash.