[The Final Dakar]

Lie

Ms. Reid interviewed more than 100 people in the American offices of a global consulting firm and had access to performance reviews and internal human resources documents. At the firm there was a strong culture around long hours and responding to clients promptly.

...

Some people fully embraced this culture and put in the long hours, and they tended to be top performers. Others openly pushed back against it, insisting upon lighter and more flexible work hours, or less travel; they were punished in their performance reviews.

What is fascinating about the firm Ms. Reid studied is that these people, who in her terminology were “passing” as workaholics, received performance reviews that were as strong as their hyper-ambitious colleagues. For people who were good at faking it, there was no real damage done by their lighter workloads.

But the fact that the consultants who quietly lightened their workload did just as well in their performance reviews as those who were truly working 80 or more hours a week suggests that in normal times, heavy workloads may be more about signaling devotion to a firm than really being more productive. The person working 80 hours isn’t necessarily serving clients any better than the person working 50.

In other words, maybe the real problem isn’t men faking greater devotion to their jobs. Maybe it’s that too many companies reward the wrong things, favoring the illusion of extraordinary effort over actual productivity.

The industry that gave us the banking crisis, ladies and gentlemen.

[Mike Wuerthele]

Maybe it’s that too many companies reward the wrong things, favoring the illusion of extraordinary effort over actual productivity.

The Navy in the nineties was THIS. ALL THE WAY THIS.

[The Final Dakar]

I think it's going to be fairly widespread. Maybe it's because companies are superficial or maybe because it's easier to judge people than actually looking at their work.

[The Final Dakar]

It occurs that if this type of view is widespread, it easily explains a large part of the pay gap for women. If your actual productivity is ignored and instead they focus on a schedule where you balance work and family, suddenly you're not a team player.

It also propagates a view that companies take a 40 hour work week for granted and are more interested in lackeys than professionals.

[subego]

FWIU, that article is a pretty spot-on description of how business operates in Japan.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

I'd like to find a way to make my people stop working 60+ hours /week, I really want them to knock it off.

"Why are you still here?"
"I want to get X done."
"Go home."
"In a minute..."

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

FWIU, that article is a pretty spot-on description of how business operates in Japan.

Yes, I read a book by a japanese reporter a month or two back and their system is fuuuuuuuucked. It also explains so many of their societal problems. BTW, if you value traditional families and procreation, supporting these types of business practices is not for you.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I'd like to find a way to make my people stop working 60+ hours /week, I really want them to knock it off.

"Why are you still here?"
"I want to get X done."
"Go home."
"In a minute..."

It's called hiring a second person. The first person obviously has too big of a workload.

Also a lot of other businesses make employees get their OT approved. Assuming they're not on salary, which is another can of worms.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Nah, there are plenty of people, they just don't understand pacing and prioritization (for a long time I didn't either). That project will still be there tomorrow, or even the day after that, you don't need to go apeshit in an attempt to slay everything that crosses your desk in under 24 hours. If it's something I need posthaste, I'll let you know, otherwise prioritize and move on. It's a marathon not a sprint. (And yes, in that office they're all salaried.)

[mattyb]

Maybe it’s that too many companies reward the wrong things, favoring the illusion of extraordinary effort over actual productivity.

One of the first things that ambitious types do in companies is buy a second suit jacket - to leave hanging over their chair at all hours. Makes it look like you're working late.

As for rewarding the wrong things, its not just the illusion of effort, its also dishonesty. While some might categorize me as the worker bee who never got promoted therefore I must be a jealous arsehole, I have never worked with a manager that was 100% honest 100% of the time. I have even been told that I am too honest.

Luckily I have a job that allows me to earn more than first or second level managers in the same company.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Nah, there are plenty of people, they just don't understand pacing and prioritization (for a long time I didn't either).

I hope the issue is they're under 30 and really love their job.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

My main issue with the article: while the observation is that "faking" the company culture gets you a better performance review, which can be entirely subjective, that doesn't mean the people faking work are actually getting as much work done. Frankly, it looks like that article was written by a person with a gender studies degree, not someone with real experience in the area of business.

The bottom line is, I need to see a peer-reviewed study (thereby eliminating confirmation bias) of numerous businesses (to get a broader picture) before agreeing with her assessment.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

doesn't mean the people faking work are actually getting as much work done.

That wasn't what I took away from the article. What I took away was that companies don't care if you're getting work done. They just want your loyalty and devotion. Case in point:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/findin...170414888.html

Reid writes that when she approached the firm's leaders with her findings, they showed no desire to modify their expectations of long work hours. Instead, they said a man who reveals his lack of interest in being fully committed to his work is not the kind of employee they want. Moreover, they asked how they might teach women to pretend they were working more, too.

Lie to me, they said.

Disregarding the above, there's been studies done and the efficiency and productivity of having someone work extended hours gets diminishing returns over time. This is common sense; If you're working 60+ hour weeks, you get less free time, therefore have less outlet to relieve stress, eat worse, and get less sleep. None of that is good for a person or their efficiency. Henry Ford figured this out in the 1920s.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

The bottom line is, I need to see a peer-reviewed study (thereby eliminating confirmation bias) of numerous businesses (to get a broader picture) before agreeing with her assessment.

Oh that's completely fair. This is one study. What I think is less in need of proof is that companies really elevate working long hours regardless of outcome.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I hope the issue is they're under 30 and really love their job.

Under 30? No (except for one). Love their job? Oh yeah. Who wouldn't love being paid an extravagant salary to give someone else's money away?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That wasn't what I took away from the article. What I took away was that companies don't care if you're getting work done. They just want your loyalty and devotion. Case in point:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/findin...170414888.html

Lie to me, they said.

That doesn't mean all companies are like that, or that the "study" was even coordinated and executed in a proper fashion. A huge red flag is where the author kept focusing on women. Females aren't the only ones who enjoy free time. And in this day and age, neither are they the only ones who have families to care for (single fathers are quite common nowadays) and other responsibilities to meet.

Disregarding the above, there's been studies done and the efficiency and productivity of having someone work extended hours gets diminishing returns over time. This is common sense; If you're working 60+ hour weeks, you get less free time, therefore have less outlet to relieve stress, eat worse, and get less sleep. None of that is good for a person or their efficiency. Henry Ford figured this out in the 1920s.

While studies show that there is a diminishing return, none have ever shown that less work gets done if you apply more hours to it. I like to take naps and meditate during the work day, it keeps me fresh and on-point. Our NPO office has a lounge with recliners adjacent to the break area, and I encourage our people to make use of it when they feel tired or stressed.

[subego]

What you're describing seems different from what the article is talking about.

A normal corporation won't consider naps as work.

That sounds like I'm being snarky, but I'm not. I generally work from a couple hours from when I get up to a couple hours before I go to sleep. You totally need naps to make that work effectively, I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing there are very few bosses who see things that way.

It's related to the "look busy" thing. I hate that. When I'm actually busy, I'm blowing your ****ing mind, so shut up and let me take a break already.

I had one boss who always made faces when I would step away for a cigarette. My other boss asked me once "what's in those things? You go away for five minutes and come back to work like you're on fire".

One of those bosses "gets it".

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

That doesn't mean all companies are like that

No, it doesn't. However it does line up with the perception of certain companies or sectors. I seem to recall Steve Jobs was working his people to oblivion when working on the Macintosh.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

A huge red flag is where the author kept focusing on women. Females aren't the only ones who enjoy free time. And in this day and age, neither are they the only ones who have families to care for (single fathers are quite common nowadays) and other responsibilities to meet.

That's not a red flag, it's called a point of focus. Further she notes that men who focus on family or don't put in the hours are also unfairly punished.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

While studies show that there is a diminishing return, none have ever shown that less work gets done if you apply more hours to it.

That's a strange way to look at it.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I like to take naps and meditate during the work day, it keeps me fresh and on-point. Our NPO office has a lounge with recliners adjacent to the break area, and I encourage our people to make use of it when they feel tired or stressed.

That's great. Guess what, that doesn't apply to 99% of people working.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

My other boss asked me once "what's in those things? You go away for five minutes and come back to work like you're on fire".

It's called nicotine.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's called nicotine.

Nicotine doesn't really perk you.

[osiris]

One gig I had offered free booze and cigarettes on fridays as a way for employees to relax.
This is a major ny ad agency that worked in the alcohol, condom and tobacco segments of advertising.

American Express once had masseuses - along with in house dentist, doctor, gym and cafeteria for employees. We were expected to work but also relax. I'm sure Apple has a similar approach.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by osiris 

American Express once had masseuses - along with in house dentist, doctor, gym and cafeteria for employees. We were expected to work but also relax. I'm sure Apple has a similar approach.

I believe Silicon Valley (and google in particular) in the 2000s was known for basically bringing all the perks of home to the office (child care, gym, laundry, etc.) to encourage people not to leave the building.

[osiris]

it's a hard call for me though, I hate working long hours for someone else, but yet I've been called a slave driver when I've had my own spinoff projects. It's hard to get people to work like that, I mean to get them to work an 80+ hour week. Looking back, I feel bad for parents who had kids they never really spent time with. Maybe I'm a closet socialist lol

[The Final Dakar]

I honestly don't know how people do it. I remember hitting a 60 hour week after a stretch of 50s and I was completely spent. I also remember long tracts of doing nothing because the focus just wasn't there any more.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I believe Silicon Valley (and google in particular) in the 2000s was known for basically bringing all the perks of home to the office (child care, gym, laundry, etc.) to encourage people not to leave the building.

There's the "Google 10", which is the 10 pounds you put on once you start working there because there's food everywhere. Like, tasty food.

[The Final Dakar]

Ah yes, I didn't mention the well catered cafeterias.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I honestly don't know how people do it. I remember hitting a 60 hour week after a stretch of 50s and I was completely spent. I also remember long tracts of doing nothing because the focus just wasn't there any more.

For me, it's "merely" a question of believing in the project. If I do, I find dumping my entire life into it pretty exhilarating.

[osiris]

free delicious yummy food everywhere, free drinks....

[The Final Dakar]

But where are the concubines?

[subego]

That's one of the things they generally get right on a film set. There's always food.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by subego 

That's one of the things they generally get right on a film set. There's always food.

oh yeah. and the bigger the budget the bigger the buffet

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

For me, it's "merely" a question of believing in the project. If I do, I find dumping my entire life into it pretty exhilarating.

I kind of get that. I also would posit my physical well being is not suited for the task. Still, we're talking people who supposedly do this shit or extended periods. Even with coffee and drugs it's beyond me.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by subego 

For me, it's "merely" a question of believing in the project. If I do, I find dumping my entire life into it pretty exhilarating.

That's the truth, it's a rush. I hate when people go through something half hearted, or worse, want to take a break just when you're getting ready to shoot... but this is admittedly quite selfish. But isn't all art this way?

[subego]

Originally Posted by osiris 

oh yeah. and the bigger the budget the bigger the buffet

And you know you're in trouble when it starts sliding.

I was on a shoot where in the beginning there were Power Bars at the craft service table, and by the end I had to threaten the PM with violence just to get us some orange juice in the morning.

This was just one aspect of a shoot which turned out bad enough I almost precipitated a walk-out.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by subego 

And you know you're in trouble when it starts sliding.

I was on a shoot where in the beginning there were Power Bars at the craft service table, and by the end I had to threaten the PM with violence just to get us some orange juice in the morning.

oh, that's bad, someone took those powerbars home.

I had a shoot with the worst catering - the deal was with a great local diner, but instead of great local diner food, the cook made these huge "glop" salads. Like he took all the leftovers and trimmings and made a giant salad. That was it. Craft services! The second week, a resourceful 2nd AD made a deal with Patsy's Pizza (this is in east harlem NYC) - we ate like Tony Soprano for 3 weeks..

[subego]

Originally Posted by osiris 

oh, that's bad, someone took those powerbars home.

I had a shoot with the worst catering - the deal was with a great local diner, but instead of great local diner food, the cook made these huge "glop" salads. Like he took all the leftovers and trimmings and made a giant salad. That was it. Craft services! The second week, a resourceful 2nd AD made a deal with Patsy's Pizza (this is in east harlem NYC) - we ate like Tony Soprano for 3 weeks..

There was something similar going on here, though not quite as bad. The movie was basically "Footloose in Greektown", and we had a Greek restaurant doing the catering. They gave us good food, but it was all meat, except for some potatoes and rice. Half the crew were vegetarians...

Part of the problem was our gaffer was a dick. He was a vegetarian, but was too much of a kiss-up to do anything about it. I ended up being the muscle for the rest of the crew.

That gaffer was the same one who was pissy about me taking smoke breaks, and I'll put 10:1 odds he stole the Power Bars, too.

[subego]

At the end of the shoot, I stole 10 rolls of gels from the DP.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by subego 

There was something similar going on here, though not quite as bad. The movie was basically "Footloose in Greektown", and we had a Greek restaurant doing the catering. They gave us good food, but it was all meat, except for some potatoes and rice. Half the crew were vegetarians...

Part of the problem was our gaffer was a dick. He was a vegetarian, but was too much of a kiss-up to do anything about it. I ended up being the muscle for the rest of the crew.

That gaffer was the same one who was pissy about me taking smoke breaks, and I'll put 10:1 odds he stole the Power Bars, too.

that's pretty bad.... usually it's good to get a consensus on likes/dislikes, but as a vegetarian it can be a PITA sometimes, i am one (a PITA and a vegetarian) but you know how important it is to have good craft services/meals, the backbone of a shoot.

So is this gaffer buried someplace now?

[The Final Dakar]

Vegetarians? Let them eat cake.

[subego]

Originally Posted by osiris 

that's pretty bad.... usually it's good to get a consensus on likes/dislikes, but as a vegetarian it can be a PITA sometimes, i am one (a PITA and a vegetarian) but you know how important it is to have good craft services/meals, the backbone of a shoot.

So is this gaffer buried someplace now?

He's far away from me, which is enough. He does good work, in that it looks pretty, but I guess my work would probably look prettier if I exploited the **** out of my crew.

As for the vegetarian thing, which was an issue I had to be the "bad cop" about on more than one shoot, what always threw me for a loop was they needed to feed actresses. Do they know anything about actresses?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

No, it doesn't. However it does line up with the perception of certain companies or sectors. I seem to recall Steve Jobs was working his people to oblivion when working on the Macintosh.

You don't work for Apple in development to be comfortable, they knew what they were signing up for.

That's not a red flag, it's called a point of focus. Further she notes that men who focus on family or don't put in the hours are also unfairly punished.

That's not really how she worded it.

That's a strange way to look at it.

Maybe because I'm a workaholic.

That's great. Guess what, that doesn't apply to 99% of people working.

I'm just explaining that things can be done to counter work fatigue.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

You don't work for Apple in development to be comfortable, they knew what they were signing up for.

I'm talking about when they were making the Mac. Before they were Apple.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Maybe because I'm a workaholic.

Workaholics don't understand pacing and efficiency? Not sarcasm, not sure I ever met a 'workaholic.'

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I'm just explaining that things can be done to counter work fatigue.

And I agree, but those things aren't getting done in a corporate environment.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I'm talking about when they were making the Mac. Before they were Apple.

Apple was around for quite some time before the Mac.

Workaholics don't understand pacing and efficiency? Not sarcasm, not sure I ever met a 'workaholic.'

Not really, we often dive in and forget to come up for air.

And I agree, but those things aren't getting done in a corporate environment.

Well, we didn't invent the idea, the Japanese have been incorporating naps in their work days for decades.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by subego 

what always threw me for a loop was they needed to feed actresses. Do they know anything about actresses?

lol that is true

[osiris]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Vegetarians? Let them eat cake.

Better than nothing!

I lived off of cake once, long story for another day.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Apple was around for quite some time before the Mac.

Jesus Christ, Shaddim, stop being literal.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Not really, we often dive in and forget to come up for air.

I've done that. However not for months at a time. And I need to recharge once I come up for air.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Well, we didn't invent the idea, the Japanese have been incorporating naps in their work days for decades.

I applaud them for it.

[Laminar]

In How Google Works, they discuss Google's view on a work/life balance - what it boiled down to in so many words is that they prefer people who live for work. For employees with young families, they expect to see a lull in activity from 6-9pm but are used to seeing activity perk back up after that until bedtime.

I'm in a position where I encounter short periods of high-risk high-expertise work and then long periods of waiting. A desk with my back to the wall is key, extra super bonus points if I actually have internet connectivity. When I'm in the office, I've used the jacket-on-chair bit quite a bit and I'll leave something super obviously work-related on a second monitor while web browsing on the primary monitor. It also works well to be there first thing in the morning before everyone arrives, take a 4-5 hour lunch, then be there at 5 when everyone leaves.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

take a 4-5 hour lunch

Even the Frogs don't take long lunches anymore. In the early 2000s 1H30/2H00 used to be the norm, now its 30/45 mins max - unless you're celebrating a project or a contract.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

When I'm in the office, I've used the jacket-on-chair bit quite a bit and I'll leave something super obviously work-related on a second monitor while web browsing on the primary monitor. It also works well to be there first thing in the morning before everyone arrives, take a 4-5 hour lunch, then be there at 5 when everyone leaves.

I can't tell, is this serious?

[Laminar]

Yes. My job is primarily to be in the field. When I'm home, showing up in the office is 99% for appearances only with 10-20 minutes of actual work to do on any given day. Occasionally more, usually less.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Yes. My job is primarily to be in the field. When I'm home, showing up in the office is 99% for appearances only with 10-20 minutes of actual work to do on any given day. Occasionally more, usually less.

Yeah, I understand you get shit done in the field. A four hour lunch is breath-taking. You basically could go get lunch, go home, watch a movie, and run an errand.

I've always thought that salaried people should be able to roll over their 'OT' to use during dead times. i.e., work a couple 60 hour weeks on one project, be able to take a bunch of half-days once there's downtime.

I do have to say, I'm curious what jobs where a jacket on a chair communicates work entail, as when I'm doing actual work, I'm at my desk. People with lots of meetings?

[andi*pandi]

"body in chair" mentality pervades a lot of offices. My current department is very leery of letting people work from home, because you know, self-reporting... never mind that the work getting done from home is proof, that you know, you worked. They require people to send emails when they log on, log off, go to lunch, shovel snow... blargh.

I think it would be different if we weren't hourly, with overtime rare and needing paperwork. In my previous department, those who were salaried worked from home frequently. Not sure if they were working more than 40+ per week, though.