[shifuimam]

I recently got into a heated debate with a friend (who, like me, is a conservative Republican on most counts). He believes that all currently-illegal recreational drugs and substances should be legalized and regulated like anything else, because such drugs are no different than other things, like food addiction, alcoholism, etc.

I tend to think that it wouldn't really benefit society to legalize anything else (cigarettes and booze are bad enough, IMO), but I'm wondering what y'all think about the issue.

[Chongo]

Marijuana, yes; the others I'm a little leery on. In many states, you can buy liquor only from state owned stores.

[OreoCookie]

Ditto on Mary Jane, it's not more or less harmful than alcohol (possibly less). On harder drugs, that's a different matter, they're a lot, lot more addicting and damaging. I don't like how crimes involving different types of hard drugs are punished, though (e. g. that sentences for possession of coke are a lot shorter than those for possession of similar amounts of crack).

Edit: I should have probably added a little more explanation to what I've written earlier: I don't think it's particularly useful either to punish addicts that harshly for mere possession or use.

[Big Mac]

I'm starting to think they should be completely legalized, if only to destroy the drug cartels. Columbia got cleaned out, making Mexico that much worse and transferring the source of the problem much closer to America. The drug cartels and the loss of liberties from the continual war on drugs are probably worse than any detrimental effects from legalization. Most people wouldn't be compelled to run out and get high, and those who would be would mostly seek out drugs regardless of their legal status.

[Dakar V]

I don't see how you don't legalize marijuana.

The more destructive capabilities of the remaining makes them a bit more debatable.

[nonhuman]

I say yes. Legalization and regulation would prevent massive numbers of drug related deaths due to nothing more complex than quality control. As it is, an unusually pure shipment of heroin can kill a lot of people in a very short time if it hits the streets. Similarly, dealers cutting their wares with other drugs, or just whatever other substances they have around to cut costs can similarly lead to the deaths of many users who don't actually know what it is they're injecting/snorting/smoking.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm starting to think they should be completely legalized, if only to destroy the drug cartels. Columbia got cleaned out, making Mexico that much worse and transferring the source of the problem much closer to America. The drug cartels and the loss of liberties from the continual war on drugs are probably worse than any detrimental effects from legalization. Most people wouldn't be compelled to run out and get high, and those who would be would mostly seek out drugs regardless of their legal status.

Also this reason.

[ort888]

Marijuana should be completely legalized and treated like alcohol. Tax the crap out of it. Regulate the crap out of it. Driving on pot would be just as harsh of a crime as driving drunk, etc...

As for the rest... at the very least decriminalize most of them. The war on drugs isn't working. Throwing addicts in jail isn't working. Time to try something new. I don't know what, but what we are doing now is wasting money and not solving the problem.

[shifuimam]

Your sig is blinding me.

The comments about drug users still getting their drugs no matter what do bring up a good point - I'm against banning citizen ownership of guns, because those who want guns with the intention of killing people will get them regardless of what the law says.

I do agree on not punishing possession so harshly. That's not really going to kick someone's addiction. Government-mandated rehab might be a better solution than a fine and some jail or prison time.

[ort888]

That sounds great on paper but is very expensive. I would also love to see government mandated rehab but I don't know if it's realistic.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by ort888 

That sounds great on paper but is very expensive. I would also love to see government mandated rehab but I don't know if it's realistic.

And our current approach isn't very expensive?

[mattyb]

I think that its hypocritical to allow cigarettes and alcohol but to ban other drugs. I obviously wouldn't like my kids to get hold of coke or heroin, but as a lover of freedom, the arguments for keeping certain drugs illegal just don't add up.

The trouble is the criminal element. Even if you legalised certain drugs would the crime associated with them dry up? I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

The trouble is the criminal element. Even if you legalised certain drugs would the crime associated with them dry up? I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.

When's the last time you went to a speakeasy?

[Chuckit]

Not all drugs. Some drugs are just plain wretched in a way that others aren't. I'd be OK with, say, LSD and marijuana, but legalized meth? Hell no.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

The trouble is the criminal element. Even if you legalised certain drugs would the crime associated with them dry up? I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.

A lot of it almost definitely would. As long as the legal drugs are priced appropriately, demand for the illegal drugs will mostly dry up (I suspect there will probably still be some demand for various reasons) and so there will no longer be the crime associated with smuggling foreign drugs into the country, with growing/producing drugs domestically, with selling drugs, and all that. I would suspect that the market price of legal drugs would be lower than the market price of illegal drugs for a variety of reasons, and as a result you should also see less crime associated with people trying to obtain funding to buy their drugs. Because people aren't illegally growing/producing drugs at home anymore you won't see the associated crimes there either (meth labs exploding, &c.). Because drugs are now legal, and are sold through legal, probably licensed avenues you'll be able to cut off violent criminals, and instead more easily be able to mandate rehab and target it specifically at the people for whom it will do the most good instead of any random college student who happened to have some blow on them (this, it should be noted, is why there will almost definitely still be some demand for illegal drugs).

So I think we can say that most of the crime associated with drugs would be eliminated by legalizing. For evidence of this, look back to before these drugs were made illegal in the first place.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Not all drugs. Some drugs are just plain wretched in a way that others aren't. I'd be OK with, say, LSD and marijuana, but legalized meth? Hell no.

People should be able to do whatever they want to their own bodies. Anyone who commits a crime while under the influence of drugs should be prohibited from purchasing drugs in the future. If they do so then I think laws similar to the ones we currently have should still be in place. But given the availability of legal drugs, I don't think it would be that big of an issue anymore.

[dcmacdaddy]

I think marijuana should legalized and heavily taxed and regulated like alcohol and cigarettes. People should be jailed for buying contraband weed (i.e.: not paying taxes on it, like with alcohol and ciggies) instead of for possession of it.

As for hard drugs like cocaine and heroin, keep them illegal but use some of the proceeds from the tax on marijuana for more addiction treatment programs. Minimize crimes for possession and usage and put more efforts into arresting/jailing those in the selling business.

I am not sure what to think about other mid-grade drugs like ecstasy, ketamine, etc. I think they should be minor crimes for possession and usage but major crimes for selling.

Give everyone a slap on the wrist for possession of small amounts of anything other than weed. Over a certain limit, charge them as a dealer and punish them severely. If the goal is to minimize usage, you've got to minimize supply. So, go after the suppliers and dealers to reduce the supply side. Use funds generated from taxes on legal marijuana sales to increase treatment programs to reduce the demand side of the drug-use equation.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

People should be able to do whatever they want to their own bodies.

Nope. We shouldn't wait for somebody to blow his own body up in the middle of a crowded mall before we outlaw it. The fact is, some things you do to your own body will almost inevitably affect others.

[besson3c]

I don't trust the intellect of your average person, so I have a problem with the idea of somebody doing something that affects me while high on something. Then again, what comes to mind is driving and I don't see anybody debating making driving while high legal, so I'm okay with the legalization of drugs so long as all of this works in my favor.

What do the religious lobbies think about drugs anyway?

[Shaddim]

Legalize everything, it will sort itself out.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't trust the intellect of your average person, so I have a problem with the idea of somebody doing something that affects me while high on something. Then again, what comes to mind is driving and I don't see anybody debating making driving while high legal, so I'm okay with the legalization of drugs so long as all of this works in my favor.

What do the religious lobbies think about drugs anyway?

It's actually the alcohol industry lobbies that fight so hard to keep drugs illegal. Bad for competition.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Nope. We shouldn't wait for somebody to blow his own body up in the middle of a crowded mall before we outlaw it. The fact is, some things you do to your own body will almost inevitably affect others.

What? That's a ridiculous statement. A suicide bomber is not simply doing something to their own body that just happens to also affect others: they're purposefully harming others. If they could effectively do it in a way that wouldn't also hurt themselves they almost definitely would.

Doing meth? Hurts no one but the user. Shooting someone while on meth or mugging someone to get money to buy meth is a completely different story and should be treated as such.

[libby7573]

Make marijuana legal. Why not? I don't feel it's as dangerous as alcohol. This coming from a grandmother by the way.
Mandatory rehab? HMM NO. Has anyone really bothered to read if all these 12 step programs work? NO they do not. They only work if the person was going to quit already. There is a lot of proof they actually do more damage than good. For example, telling a teenager he's powerless over it. Well geesh "if I'm powerless, why fight it?!" There are alternative programs that have a much better rate of success. However, the insurance companies don't support those plus our criminal justice system doesn't use those. Why, because of money! Insurance companies own some and the mental health system and the courts like to work together. There has been way too many dollars spent on these programs to back out now! Yes, other countries are changing but not the USA. It's going to take several years to get politician and insurance companies to admit such a huge error. However, don't take my word for it. Go do your own research please.

Other drugs I have to agree to make them legal. It's scarey but yes. Go to the local pharmacy and buy quality control drugs. Stops cartel. Stops high prison rates and stops some deaths. We can't control this anymore than we are controlling alcohol.
Make it seriously bad to drive while using these or doing criminal acts. But geesh forget the possession, buying etc.

I use no illegal drugs or alcohol. But I think if you want and you are not hurting me, then go ahead and do it as I can't stop you anyways. I also have my own life so I really don't care to stop you.

Thanks for listening!
Liz

[subego]

So, now we have another one of those threads where people like Chongo, OreoCookie, Shaddim, besson3c, shifuimam, Dakar V, and Big Mac are more or less agreeing.

To paraphrase a line from another thread: yeah, we're pretty much ****ed.

[LegendaryPinkOx]

Originally Posted by subego 

So, now we have another one of those threads where people like Chongo, OreoCookie, Shaddim, besson3c, shifuimam, Dakar V, and Big Mac are more or less agreeing.

The new PWL:

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

So, now we have another one of those threads where people like Chongo, OreoCookie, Shaddim, besson3c, shifuimam, Dakar V, and Big Mac are more or less agreeing.

To paraphrase a line from another thread: yeah, we're pretty much ****ed.

Hey, there are a couple more guys at that BBQ, don't forget them!

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by subego 

So, now we have another one of those threads where people like Chongo, OreoCookie, Shaddim, besson3c, shifuimam, Dakar V, and Big Mac are more or less agreeing.

To paraphrase a line from another thread: yeah, we're pretty much ****ed.

Perhaps that means our position has some merit and those who disagree should actually give it some consideration rather than just sticking with the conservative approach...

[Doofy]

It's doesn't matter whether you legalise them or not - the users will probably have nowhere to partake of said substances (i.e. banned in the bar, banned in the restaurant, banned on the beach, banned in the public park, banned in the street, banned in their own apartment).

We know an already fully-legal drug like that, don't we children?

[ghporter]

I'd like to think that we could destroy the drug cartels by legalizing things like cocaine and heroin. But experience from the 1920s and 30s shows that entrenched organized criminals just find other things that people want and aren't supposed to have.

From a social standpoint, making something like cocaine less dangerous to get and less dangerous to use could be helpful, especially if you tax the living daylights out of users. But functionally, I don't think it would be helpful to real addicts. I think that if they could get all they wanted, they may just curl up into a ball and OD themselves into oblivion, with random and extensive collateral damage in just about every case. The real issue is not drug use as much as what drives people to try that hard to escape from their lives. Until someone figures out a way to impact that (not just mention it), then nothing is going to really help our society the way most of us think better management of these drugs should.

[Maflynn]

My take on this on hard drugs and pot is that I've seen them destroy people's lives. Another point is that I don't my children thinking that because its legal, the stuff is ok to play with. For instance, here in Massachusetts they basically legalized pot by changing it from criminal to a civil infraction and most police have said they'll not even enforce that. So much so, I saw someone walking down the street smoking a joint as plain as could be.

I don't want my children trying that stuff and by legalizing it, (or the hard stuff) it gives it an air of respectability or rather an appearance that its not harmful. I want more reasons for them not to touch the stuff, not less.

While I'm sure people will come out of the wood work here and tell me that pot is not harmful, I've seen first hand the affects of it, either it being a gateway drug or by people doing the stuff and having issues (like motivation, drive, focus, short term memory etc). I'm sure there's plenty of people who smoke it and are very successful but I think there are health issues and problems for people who do drugs as a general rule and those successful folks are more of the exception

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

My take on this on hard drugs and pot is that I've seen them destroy people's lives. Another point is that I don't my children thinking that because its legal, the stuff is ok to play with. For instance, here in Massachusetts they basically legalized pot by changing it from criminal to a civil infraction and most police have said they'll not even enforce that. So much so, I saw someone walking down the street smoking a joint as plain as could be.

I don't want my children trying that stuff and by legalizing it, (or the hard stuff) it gives it an air of respectability or rather an appearance that its not harmful. I want more reasons for them not to touch the stuff, not less.

While I'm sure people will come out of the wood work here and tell me that pot is not harmful, I've seen first hand the affects of it, either it being a gateway drug or by people doing the stuff and having issues (like motivation, drive, focus, short term memory etc). I'm sure there's plenty of people who smoke it and are very successful but I think there are health issues and problems for people who do drugs as a general rule and those successful folks are more of the exception

The only problem with your argument is that you could replace the word "pot" with "alcohol" and it would be just as relevant. I agree that pot can screw up your life... but so can alcohol.

I say either legalize pot or criminalize alcohol.

[Maflynn]

I know, and that's the typical argument I hear regarding legalizing pot. Based on what I've seen first hand, and read the differences are that pot is truly a gateway drug. While plenty of pot users don't venture into the harder stuff, plenty do. Additionally there seems to be a body of evidence that suggests that pot alters/affects one's health much more then alcohol abuse would.

Too much of anything is bad, and that includes alcohol, however there is too much evidence that an occasional beer or glass of wine is beneficial but I've not really seen the same thing for pot. Other then being used to ease some people's suffering with more serious diseases light/occasional use seems to have a more negative impact on people then an occasional beer. As I've stated, I've seen first hand how its destroyed people's families, and lives and while I'm not going to refute or argue the fact that there are numerous people who light up w/o any ill affects I do not want that for my children and legalizing the stuff makes my job as a parent much much harder.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

My take on this on hard drugs and pot is that I've seen them destroy people's lives. Another point is that I don't my children thinking that because its legal, the stuff is ok to play with. For instance, here in Massachusetts they basically legalized pot by changing it from criminal to a civil infraction and most police have said they'll not even enforce that. So much so, I saw someone walking down the street smoking a joint as plain as could be.

I don't want my children trying that stuff and by legalizing it, (or the hard stuff) it gives it an air of respectability or rather an appearance that its not harmful. I want more reasons for them not to touch the stuff, not less.

While I'm sure people will come out of the wood work here and tell me that pot is not harmful, I've seen first hand the affects of it, either it being a gateway drug or by people doing the stuff and having issues (like motivation, drive, focus, short term memory etc). I'm sure there's plenty of people who smoke it and are very successful but I think there are health issues and problems for people who do drugs as a general rule and those successful folks are more of the exception

That's up to you to teach your children that doing drugs is wrong.
Most likely what you've been doing already, so what's going to change? if they're going to try drugs nothing is going to stop them.

As for your other statement...

Toplessness is legal here in Canada, just cause your daughter sees a woman walking down the street topless, does that mean she's going to do it in ten years? Maybe, but I doubt that one person influenced it.

Choices are good and bad, but at least we have them.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by libby7573 

Make marijuana legal. Why not? I don't feel it's as dangerous as alcohol. This coming from a grandmother by the way.

I suspect there are a great many grandmothers using the drug, I'm not sure how this is relevant. After all, it was your generation that saw the incredibly explosive rise in the rate of usage. I agree however, marijuana should be legalized.

Mandatory rehab? HMM NO. Has anyone really bothered to read if all these 12 step programs work? NO they do not.

Also completely agree here. Over and above "spontaneous remission", there is no compelling evidence to suggest programs like AA actually work. They take claim for the little more than 5% success rate, but a number of studies actually show a higher success rate for those who simply quit of their own volition. In fact, arrest rates are higher for addicts who've been in treatment programs than for addicts who have not as well as rates of bingeing. It's a feel-good policy that has no record of success. I've often wondered about a program that uses something like "ex-users" as "sponsors" to help the addicted shake the habit when statistically they're 95% likely to be falling off the wagon themselves. I can picture a bunch of sponsors throwing a house party.

Other drugs I have to agree to make them legal. It's scarey but yes. Go to the local pharmacy and buy quality control drugs. Stops cartel. Stops high prison rates and stops some deaths. We can't control this anymore than we are controlling alcohol.
Make it seriously bad to drive while using these or doing criminal acts. But geesh forget the possession, buying etc.

I don't know if I agree with using "other drugs" legally. Marijuana is exponentially less destructive than the next drug behind it. I would have to study the affects of legislation allowing for marijuana exclusively and whether or not it tends to drive behaviors towards the more "taboo". In other words, the common perception regarding teen drinking rates being higher in the US than in countries that have lower or no drinking ages is because our legislation may be encouraging binge drinking, driving youths towards this "taboo" behavior. I'm also in favor of lowering the drinking age at least to 18. To anyone who disagrees, I'd be open to any statistic showing higher rates of DUIs and the like from when the age was 18.

I use no illegal drugs or alcohol. But I think if you want and you are not hurting me, then go ahead and do it as I can't stop you anyways. I also have my own life so I really don't care to stop you.

While I like to joke around with people, it is very good to hear from you Liz and welcome to MacNN.

I agree with this last statement as well. The problems regarding marijuana use could actually be mitigated by legalizing it. With some critical oversight and awareness, much could be generated by way of tax revenue for the State, much lower expenditure on imprisonment instead of hardening the guy who got busted for a friggin' ounce of something that grows naturally out of the ground, and we could go a long way towards breaking up the "shadow business" or gang activity prevalent in it.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

I know, and that's the typical argument I hear regarding legalizing pot. Based on what I've seen first hand, and read the differences are that pot is truly a gateway drug.
While plenty of pot users don't venture into the harder stuff, plenty do. Additionally there seems to be a body of evidence that suggests that pot alters/affects one's health much more then alcohol abuse would.

I'd be curious to see this information. I'd also be willing to bet that the studies do not include the inherent loss of inhibition causing emotional outbursts, violence, and drunken driving death rates. According to police forums and law enforcement, they'd much rather walk into a room full of pot-smokers than drinkers for this very reason.

Too much of anything is bad, and that includes alcohol, however there is too much evidence that an occasional beer or glass of wine is beneficial but I've not really seen the same thing for pot.

Then you may not have availed yourself of its medicinal qualities including pain relief, glaucoma, and cancer. I watched my mother suffer through doctor-prescribed medication that made her sicker than the disease could've ever hoped. I wonder how marijuana could've helped ease her suffering.

The glass of wine can send an alcoholic into a binge that destroys his family and his life. Alcohol is physically addictive while marijuana is not and the beneficial affects you'd cite for a glass of wine or beer or very similar to the affects of two draws of marijuana. I believe it has been made taboo for very specific reasons having nothing to do with how "destructive" it is.

Other then being used to ease some people's suffering with more serious diseases light/occasional use seems to have a more negative impact on people then an occasional beer. As I've stated, I've seen first hand how its destroyed people's families, and lives and while I'm not going to refute or argue the fact that there are numerous people who light up w/o any ill affects I do not want that for my children and legalizing the stuff makes my job as a parent much much harder.

You're making the claim that marijuana is causal of the destroyed lives instead of considering that perhaps it is simply correlative of an already destructive or dysfunctional lifestyle. After all, the only way to procure the substance is illegally, it follows logically that this illegal behavior would not begin and end with simply procuring marijuana. Why would you want someone who is simply after a joint, seek services from someone who'd like to rock a little something else into that joint for them? I'm not claiming that marijuana would help mitigate these conditions, but I think it is mistaken to assume marijuana is the virus and not a symptom of another problem. The first marijuana law in the US was enacted in Texas in 1905.

[nonhuman]

Given the current situation where drugs, while illegal, are readily available to all who want them (seriously, any drug you want, you can get pretty easily and relatively cheaply), I really can't give any credence to arguments that legalization might encourage more people to try it. Honestly, legalization would probably reduce availability. Currently it's easier for high schoolers to get their hands on pot than on alcohol (thought not particularly difficult for either). My own personal experience suggests that the grower/dealer culture that's come about due to marijuana prohibition has a lot to do with the prevalence of smoking. There's so much pot out there and it's so easy to get that you really might as well just smoke it. The blatant falsehoods spread by the anti-drug lobby just encourages kids to smoke pot for no other reason than to stick it to the man.

I have the opportunity to smoke pot every day. Close to once a week I'm offered a lit joint or bowl. There is literally nothing stopping me from getting high every day except my own self control. I fail to see how legalizing pot is going to make this situation 'worse'.

Other drugs are only slightly harder to get your hands on. I couldn't say for certain exactly who I would have to talk to if I wanted coke or acid, but I'm fairly confident that I could have some by the end of the day if I really wanted to. It's not popular in my circle of friends (as far as I know it's not even present), but i doubt it's more than 3 or 4 degrees of separation to get some here in Boston, and even less than that if I were to go back to San Francisco (no more than 2 degrees, probably 1).

For the record, 9 times out of 10 that I'm offered pot I'll turn it down, and lately it's probably getting closer to 99 out of 100. I don't do any other drugs except alcohol and occasionally tobacco (in the form of shisha or very rarely cigars, I hate cigarettes). Legality has absolutely nothing to do with my choices here. I don't smoke pot because having done so I don't really find it all that pleasant anymore. I've never really felt tempted to experiment with anything else, even when those things were offered to me freely (and they were, everything from speed to heroin has been made available at one point or another).

[subego]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Perhaps that means our position has some merit and those who disagree should actually give it some consideration rather than just sticking with the conservative approach...

I appreciate someone who remains calm when the sun turns black as sackcloth of hair and the whole moon becomes as blood.

[Buckaroo]

Not only should they NOT legalize any illegal drugs, they need to increase the fines and penalties for using all of them. Ten days in jail minimum for using even Marajuana (or however you spell it) for the first time.

In fact I believe all employers should be required to do regular spot testing to make sure employees are not using.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Ten days in jail minimum for using even Marajuana (or however you spell it) for the first time.

Okay, I'll bite.

You would pay for this how?

[Buckaroo]

Let the criminals pay for it. They can pay for the whole thing.

[subego]

Where are you going to get the other 95%? Don't forget the extra hit to welfare from all the stoners you just bankrupted and gave criminal records.

I think this plan needs some work.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Doing meth? Hurts no one but the user. Shooting someone while on meth or mugging someone to get money to buy meth is a completely different story and should be treated as such.

Does causality not exist in your universe? Do you think we should be allowed to fire off automatic weapons in airports until we hit anyone, and only then should it be treated as a threat?

Some actions are inherently threatening. We shouldn't wait for a shooter's victims to die before we feel justified in taking action, and we shouldn't wait for somebody on a crime kick to kill us for our pocket change before we stop him.

[Rumor]

As much as I love a good beer, I wouldn't be too upset if it were illegal and pot was legal.

You can sit in a police station for a month, and I guarantee that you will here "Bob is drunk and beat his wife", or something similar, at least once a night. You'll never hear, "Bob smoked a joint and beat his wife".

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

I know, and that's the typical argument I hear regarding legalizing pot. Based on what I've seen first hand, and read the differences are that pot is truly a gateway drug. While plenty of pot users don't venture into the harder stuff, plenty do.

That's partly kindasorta true, but only because it's illegal. By making harmless and enjoyable things illegal, you weaken people's respect for the law and give ordinary people more reason to associate with criminal elements. If pot and tobacco were reversed, you'd be saying the same thing about cigars.

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Additionally there seems to be a body of evidence that suggests that pot alters/affects one's health much more then alcohol abuse would.

Can you point me to this body of evidence? I've heard people make this claim before, but I've never seen any credible evidence that it's remotely true, at least in the quantities that they are normally consumed. (If we're talking about 10 years of smoking pot for 12 hours a day versus a Bud Light while watching football — like a few really biased articles I've seen — obviously you're right.)

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Too much of anything is bad, and that includes alcohol, however there is too much evidence that an occasional beer or glass of wine is beneficial but I've not really seen the same thing for pot. Other then being used to ease some people's suffering with more serious diseases light/occasional use seems to have a more negative impact on people then an occasional beer.

Namely?

Like Rumor said, I've known a lot of violent and dangerous alcoholics, but I've never known a violent and dangerous pot-smoker. My mom was a venue security guard when I was growing up, and I heard all sorts of cautionary tales about various drugs and alcohol and gangs — never had any similar stories about pot after reggae shows.

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

As I've stated, I've seen first hand how its destroyed people's families, and lives and while I'm not going to refute or argue the fact that there are numerous people who light up w/o any ill affects I do not want that for my children and legalizing the stuff makes my job as a parent much much harder.

Dude, that's a terrible reason to make something illegal. There are parents out there who don't want their children doing anything that isn't approved by Islam/Hinduism/[insert random belief system here] — should their wishes be law?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Does causality not exist in your universe? Do you think we should be allowed to fire off automatic weapons in airports until we hit anyone, and only then should it be treated as a threat?

How are those things even remotely similar? Just saying we can't allow A because B is bad doesn't make A and B equivalent.

Some actions are inherently threatening. We shouldn't wait for a shooter's victims to die before we feel justified in taking action, and we shouldn't wait for somebody on a crime kick to kill us for our pocket change before we stop him.

Explain to me how doing meth fits into that category. Or shooting heroin. Or smoking crack. There is nothing about doing any of those things that automatically makes someone apt to commit a crime (other than the purchasing, possessing, and using of those drugs, of course). There are people who do all of those things and still manage to lead productive lives. Ergo those things are not inherently threatening.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by subego 

I appreciate someone who remains calm when the sun turns black as sackcloth of hair and the whole moon becomes as blood.

It's the most won-der-ful tiiiime of the yearrrrr!!!!

[subego]

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

I know, and that's the typical argument I hear regarding legalizing pot. Based on what I've seen first hand, and read the differences are that pot is truly a gateway drug. While plenty of pot users don't venture into the harder stuff, plenty do.

Legalization would help here, too: if you were to buy pot at your local 7/11 (with your cigarettes) or at another store, they would not offer anything but pot (and alcohol, I suppose). You'd really have to go to a dealer to get the harder stuff.

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Additionally there seems to be a body of evidence that suggests that pot alters/affects one's health much more then alcohol abuse would.

I haven't seen evidence that use (vs. abuse) of pot is any more damaging than alcohol or cigarettes. Abuse of these substances is a different matter, but even then most of the studies I've seen concluded it's less harmful than alcohol in that respect. I haven't seen anything saying that it's much more harmful than alcohol.

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Too much of anything is bad, and that includes alcohol, however there is too much evidence that an occasional beer or glass of wine is beneficial but I've not really seen the same thing for pot.

There are plenty of studies that show benefits of pot for people with chronic pains, cancer patients, etc. Other than that, it's a recreational drug like nicotine, alcohol and caffeine. With obvious dangers if you abuse it. But from what I can tell, it's less addicting than the above three (especially alcohol and nicotine).

Without getting into any statistics, I can just second Rumor's and Chuckit's comments: I've seen plenty of people get aggressive after drinking excessively. To the point it's a buzz kill for the friends around them. Never ever seen that happen with pot.

Most importantly, though, pot is dealt with like alcohol during the prohibition: it's widely spread and none of the laws have helped curbing its use. Prohibition hasn't worked for alcohol and neither does the ban on Mary Jane.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Not all drugs. Some drugs are just plain wretched in a way that others aren't. I'd be OK with, say, LSD and marijuana, but legalized meth? Hell no.

In the short term LSD is very dangerous, a standard dose of Heroin, cocaine or amphetamines will not make you go mad (it make make you curl into a ball or act like a fool), if LSD is doing it job right, it will drive you temporally insane which in my opinion is a much worse place to be.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Explain to me how doing meth fits into that category. Or shooting heroin. Or smoking crack. There is nothing about doing any of those things that automatically makes someone apt to commit a crime (other than the purchasing, possessing, and using of those drugs, of course). There are people who do all of those things and still manage to lead productive lives. Ergo those things are not inherently threatening.

Meth users become tolerant to the amount they're using and must elevate their usage for the same "high". A high can last 6-12 hours. When are they productive, when they're all hopped up? In an effort to legalize drugs other than marijuana, wouldn't the burden of proof be on you that you can hit meth and crack and still lead a productive life? The first aspect of meth and crack that comes to mind is how wildly, physically addictive it is. Getting it becomes more important than getting anything else. This is what leads to crime. Let's legalize the selling of neurotoxins? rat poison? I'm guessing this is why people who think those of us who advocate the legalization of marijuana are out of our friggin' minds. Too many do not distinguish between something that grows from the ground naturally and something you must craft from various household chemicals.

The Office of National Drug Control Policy determined that every dollar spent on treatment resulted in a $7.46 reduction in lost productivity and crime-related spending. This estimate does not include the costs of providing medical care.

Marijuana on the other hand is not physically addictive and does not lead to the degree of crime you see from meth or crack. There are substantial differences between meth, crack, and marijuana.