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So, Tropical Stormy Enough For You? (Page 3)
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ghporter  (op)
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Oct 4, 2017, 10:03 PM
 
The biggest problem with getting things to the folks in Puerto Rico that need them is that their infrastructure has been pretty well wrecked. Cruise lines have been bringing in stuff for several days now. Now that port facilities are at least operational, the stuff can be offloaded. Now, how many truck drivers are available, and how many trucks/trailers are drivable? And how passable are roads?

I think the real issue is that FEMA is a slow-moving government agency that can't react quickly. And our POTUS spends too much time tweeting and not enough directing the military to head in there with helicopters and start moving supplies from where they sit on the docks to where people need them.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
And.reg
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Oct 5, 2017, 10:15 AM
 
Get ready for Nate, New Orleans.
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Jawbone54
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Oct 7, 2017, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
Get ready for Nate, New Orleans.
Some folks in the state are already freaking out.

I don't blame them.
     
ghporter  (op)
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Oct 7, 2017, 07:28 PM
 
Nate sure doesn't look pretty.

I don't think I'm the only one who's tired of these storms. Whether it's because of "climate change" or just that we were spared for a decade and now the storms look like Mother Nature has just saved them up, from my vantage point, we're going to be rebuilding a lot of cities, and it will take a very long time to do it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
And.reg
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Oct 8, 2017, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
from my vantage point, we're going to be rebuilding a lot of cities
I agree, but many of them won't be cities along the immediate coast. Cities more inland will need to be rebuilt or restructured to accommodate the immediate population needs from people who "lost everything" and "just need a place."
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 8, 2017, 07:29 PM
 
Nate's coming to rain on our parade.

Seriously, we were going to have a parade for indigenous peoples tomorrow and it looks like Nate's going to ruin it.

On a more serious note, if you're in the path stay safe.
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Oct 8, 2017, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Nate's coming to rain on our parade.

Seriously, we were going to have a parade for indigenous peoples tomorrow and it looks like Nate's going to ruin it.

On a more serious note, if you're in the path stay safe.
I could hear the rain this morning during the broadcast of the Mass from EWTN. (Irondale AL)
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 11, 2017, 01:05 PM
 
I still can't make head or tails of the situation in PR. I don't trust the media not to sensationalize it and I don't trust the administration not to pretend everything's under control when it's not. I don't think things are as dire for most Puerto Rican's as some of the citizens highlighted by the media but I also get the feeling this has been mismanaged from the get go and after Irma and Harvey the level of engagement has not been equal to its forebears.
     
subego
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Oct 11, 2017, 01:22 PM
 
Island logistics are an order of magnitude more difficult than CONUS logistics.

PR got ****ing flattened. The last time it got hit by a hurricane this strong was in 1928.

They've definitely screwed stuff up, but the response would appear disparate even if it was perfect.
     
reader50
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Oct 11, 2017, 01:52 PM
 
The Jones Act waiver only lasted 10 days - it's expired already. And the administration says it won't be renewed.

So what was the point in helping PR rebuild - deliver an emergency supply of toilet paper? It should have been waived for at least 90 days IMO.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 11, 2017, 01:53 PM
 
It's going to take a decade to recover from this fully, mother nature is much better at ****ing things up than humans are at putting things back together. All assets for getting things fixed are already in the pipe, but it's going to take untold man hours to do it.
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 11, 2017, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
The Jones Act waiver only lasted 10 days - it's expired already. And the administration says it won't be renewed.

So what was the point in helping PR rebuild - deliver an emergency supply of toilet paper? It should have been waived for at least 90 days IMO.
...and forever, honestly. But yeah the effort was going to require more than 10 days
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 11, 2017, 08:25 PM
 
It stuff like this https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud/sta...43002333761536
The EPA cites reports of Puerto Ricans “obtaining, or trying to obtain, drinking water from wells at hazardous waste “Superfund” sites”


You don't do this if you're getting help
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 12, 2017, 10:19 AM
 
Asshole threatened to stop PRs relief effort.
     
sek929
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Oct 12, 2017, 01:08 PM
 
I assume it was via a twitter rant that resembles something a 12 year old girl would say.

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 12, 2017, 01:22 PM
 
Correct
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 12, 2017, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I assume it was via a twitter rant that resembles something a 12 year old girl would say.
Hey, there are plenty of 12-year-old girls better qualified than Trump to be president!
     
And.reg
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Oct 12, 2017, 03:55 PM
 
Well PR doesn't usually get decimated so bad even with hurricanes. Thing is, PR faces the same challenges as many islands in the west Atlantic. They have to decide if they want to spend that much money rebuilding, given the annual threat of extreme hurricanes. When I was growing up, it was rare to see a Category 5 hurricane on the news, and even more rare for one to make landfall (e.g., Andrew in '92). Now it's like every year there are multiple C4 and C5 hurricanes, and more of them are making landfall it seems. West Atlantic islands are at higher risk than ever of being ruined by extreme hurricanes. So, for the government to say "You've been getting decimated by too many hurricanes, so move on, we're not going to deliver supplies anymore" doesn't work. Spending taxpayer's money (ours or theirs) to keep rebuilding every year is not sustainable if islands overpopulate. And we don't know if hurricanes will get worse in 20 years. It's a ball of wax. What do you do if you're the PR government over the following 5 years?
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 12, 2017, 04:16 PM
 
That's not what the government said.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 28, 2017, 03:31 PM
 
https://www.buzzfeed.com/nidhiprakas...Jz#.bdREdXgk9d
The Puerto Rican government told BuzzFeed News Friday that it allowed 911 bodies to be cremated since Hurricane Maria made landfall, and that not one of them were physically examined by a government medical examiner to determine if it should be included in the official death toll.
Ortiz said that if the institute is not examining a potential hurricane victim, it's because the doctor, medic or district attorney who certified the death did not fill out paperwork to alert the institute that it could be a hurricane-related death. But again, the government does not have any clear criteria on what should be considered a hurricane related death and what should not.
It's such a mess down there we may never know how bad things were.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 28, 2017, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
What do you do if you're the PR government over the following 5 years?
Build only stuff thats hurricane proof.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 29, 2017, 12:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
https://www.buzzfeed.com/nidhiprakas...Jz#.bdREdXgk9d

It's such a mess down there we may never know how bad things were.
Some numbers.

Population of Puerto Rico: 3,411,000
Death rate: 8.8 per 1,000
Average number of deaths per year: 30,000 (that's rounding down)
Average number of deaths per month: 2,500

In other words, in the time from Maria until now, literally thousands of people dying is business as usual.
     
Laminar
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Oct 29, 2017, 01:20 AM
 
But they'd typically be accounted for, right? Not just buried or cremated in a mass grave without any kind of identification or autopsy?
     
subego
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Oct 29, 2017, 02:01 AM
 
My layman understanding is only a small number of deaths are going to need the services of an M.E. under normal circumstances. If suddenly every death needed it, there wouldn't nearly be enough M.E.s to do it in a timely manner, nor enough facilities to store them in the meantime.

Now hit it all with a pin-sweeper.

The situation is going to require triage. Unidentified bodies should go higher on the list, but if it comes down to the options being cremation, or leaving it out in the tropics until an M.E. gets there, cremation is probably the best option.
     
reader50
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Oct 29, 2017, 02:49 AM
 
Some hurricane victims are certainly in those 911 cremated bodies:
Originally Posted by Buzzfeed story
The funeral home and crematorium directors BuzzFeed News spoke to over the past two weeks all said they've received no official guidance instructing them to send hurricane victims to the institute — and the government said they've sent no guidance to them.

Without guidance, different funeral home and crematorium directors told BuzzFeed News they had vastly different ideas of what they considered hurricane-related deaths. Some said they counted heart attacks and people who died for lack of oxygen because there was no power, while others said they counted those as "natural deaths."
I would count deaths due to power outage, which was caused by the hurricane. But heart attack because the important soccer game cut off when the power died -- maybe not. There should be a spectrum of how close an indirect cause must be to be hurricane-related.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unidentified bodies should go higher on the list, but if it comes down to the options being cremation, or leaving it out in the tropics until an M.E. gets there, cremation is probably the best option.
This is an exceptionally good point. Last I heard, only 30% of Puerto Rico has power back. So there isn't much refrigeration. I'd imagine funeral homes are not priorities.
( Last edited by reader50; Oct 29, 2017 at 06:33 PM. Reason: updated power percentage)
     
subego
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Oct 29, 2017, 01:25 PM
 
Thank you.

My instincts tell me it's standard procedure in a situation like this to determine a final death toll by piecing together available records, rather than keep a running count.

There's opportunity for shenanigans here, but I'm not sure we're seeing them yet.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 29, 2017, 02:30 PM
 
Surely the Shenanigans are in the Trump donor who got the rebuilding contract with the no audit clause in it?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 30, 2017, 11:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Some numbers.

Population of Puerto Rico: 3,411,000
Death rate: 8.8 per 1,000
Average number of deaths per year: 30,000 (that's rounding down)
Average number of deaths per month: 2,500

In other words, in the time from Maria until now, literally thousands of people dying is business as usual.
That's a good point.

Then I realized a good amount probably evacuated to the main land. Plus it seems unlikely that lacking power and water wouldn't impact the death rate at all. That'd be a miracle.
     
subego
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Oct 30, 2017, 11:59 AM
 
All good points.

My overall argument is we shouldn't have to be debating this, because journalists are supposed to be taking into account the fairly obvious argument some jerk-off on the internet like myself can come up with after thinking about it for 10 minutes.

This is opposed to throwing a sliver of a data set at the wall and hoping our biases come up with a result which may or may not bear a glancing resemblance to the truth.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 30, 2017, 12:12 PM
 
Your best argument is that it takes a while for the facts to get sorted in the aftermath. It's reasonable. Because of the media spotlight and it's unique situation I find myself more focused on the story than usual.
     
subego
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Oct 30, 2017, 12:36 PM
 
I think it's fair to be focused on the story because to what extent the Trump administration ****ed this shit up is a legit question. I'm merely questioning the extent to which they have successfully addressed the question.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 9, 2017, 07:00 PM
 
A bunch of PR lost power because one of the poles fixed by that shady company failed. Down to 18% with power ATM
     
 
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