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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > Feedback > The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This

The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This (Page 6)
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 27, 2017, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
You have an odd definition of one losing their temper, I said you were being purposely obtuse.
Seriously? You've been snarling in that thread for days. FYI, out in the Lounge, calling anyone "stupid, obtuse, or ignorant" is considered a personal attack (perhaps only a mild one, depending on context), it might even be that way in the PWL now too, since the rules have been tightened-up.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 27, 2017, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Now don't you go running your mouth off like that to a long-standing member!

Sheesh, the gall...
I'm trying to figure out when you became this bad, or what I did to you personally to cause this behavior. I recall when we had great talks about audio gear, oh well.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 27, 2017, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm trying to figure out when you became this bad, or what I did to you personally to cause this behavior. I recall when we had great talks about audio gear, oh well.
Remember that I haven't read the Political Lounge since the days of Lerkfish and TNproud2b. You hardly post anything outside of there, so there really isn't much discussion to be had anymore.

In this thread, you're coming across as a whiny bully who got called on acting like an asshole and is now playing the victim and leading a revolution against General Unfairness.

Sorry if that taints your view of who you thought you were dealing with. I've always called them as I see them.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 28, 2017, 01:27 AM
 
Well, since this goes back for at least a year before this thread, I was hoping for a little honesty, but suit yourself.

I'd also like to point out that, if that truly is your opinion of what's going on in this thread, you've not been paying attention and are solely relying upon the people who have been attempting to cloud the issue (if not outright get the thread shutdown) every step of the way.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
And.reg
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Sep 28, 2017, 08:01 PM
 
This one time, at Boot Camp, I stuck a flute up my PC.
     
Paco500
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Oct 12, 2017, 03:11 AM
 
Here we go again...
     
And.reg
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Oct 12, 2017, 10:21 AM
 
It done got dropped yo
This one time, at Boot Camp, I stuck a flute up my PC.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 12, 2017, 10:29 AM
 
What'd I miss now
     
besson3c
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Oct 12, 2017, 10:35 AM
 
In the Vegas thread he called WAS garbage.
     
sek929
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Oct 12, 2017, 01:07 PM
 
Why doesn't he just put Paco and WAS on ignore if he can't stop getting infractions from becoming emotional over what they post?

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 12, 2017, 01:22 PM
 
Funny I think he's of the segment that people with self control don't need ignore lists.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 12, 2017, 03:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
In the Vegas thread he called WAS garbage.

He did? Sounds vaguely familiar maybe but for the record it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Don't ban him on my account.

You'd think given his record and recent nitpicking over phrasing that he'd pick his words carefully enough to not get infractions by now.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Laminar
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Oct 12, 2017, 03:43 PM
 
I reported him for calling Doc HM a "frothing psycho" when CPT was getting called out for spreading rumors that the Vegas shooter had ISIS and/or AntiFa connections.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 12, 2017, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I reported him for calling Doc HM a "frothing psycho" when CPT was getting called out for spreading rumors that the Vegas shooter had ISIS and/or AntiFa connections.
I don't see that as practically different than the sum of...

You're full of crap
You intentionally post idiotic things
You're a liar
You emotionally blackmail people
You fail at critical thought or are just that stupid

Actually, I'd say the response was rather mild, considering.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 12, 2017, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
He did? Sounds vaguely familiar maybe but for the record it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Don't ban him on my account.

You'd think given his record and recent nitpicking over phrasing that he'd pick his words carefully enough to not get infractions by now.
He called me a wealth of garbage, thats not the same thing at all. I retract my statement about choosing words more carefully. We both walk a fine line with each other quite often but I haven't noticed him step over it once.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
sek929
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Oct 12, 2017, 11:52 PM
 
Has anything come out to corroborate the Antifa claim? If not then calling CTP out for it is pretty warranted.

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 13, 2017, 01:20 AM
 
It did the rounds on certain RW outlets before the authorities released any info at all. Thats when he made the claim. I haven't heard anything remotely credible.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Paco500
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Oct 13, 2017, 07:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Why doesn't he just put Paco and WAS on ignore if he can't stop getting infractions from becoming emotional over what they post?
Two things on this.

1) I've never reported him for anything- mods feel free to call me out if this is untrue. I've been here a long, long, time, so my memory may be faulty, but I think the only reason I've ever reported a post is SPAM.

2) I think you will find that since his last ban, I've scaled back on my confrontations with him. I'm not going to pretend this is because my opinions of his posts or character have changed, or I've learned to be a better person. It's 100% because I don't want him to have the ability use me as an excuse for his behaviour. Probably a bit petty, but hopefully, it has the knock-on effect of making this place a bit more pleasant.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 13, 2017, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Has anything come out to corroborate the Antifa claim? If not then calling CTP out for it is pretty warranted.
Is there some difference between "calling out" and "personal attack I feel is justified"?

I'm not seeing it, and if it isn't there, let's call it what it is.
     
sek929
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Oct 13, 2017, 01:43 PM
 
As I said at the start of this thread I don’t often go into the PWL, but in my experience the insults flow like wine over there. Toeing the line of personal attacks is an art form in the PWL and CTP is no stranger to that.

I’ll admit my comment was heavily biased, seemingly all parties are guilty here, but only one has a history stretching backs years with unsubstantiated bullshit claims to push an agenda. Frustration with his tactics are obviously coming to a head. I banned myself from the PWL for the very reason of not being able to keep myself from slinging insults when debate got heated. I’m sure a successful and secure man such as CTP can stay calm and not resort to name calling but yet here we are.

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
besson3c
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Oct 13, 2017, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
As I said at the start of this thread I don’t often go into the PWL, but in my experience the insults flow like wine over there. Toeing the line of personal attacks is an art form in the PWL and CTP is no stranger to that.

I’ll admit my comment was heavily biased, seemingly all parties are guilty here, but only one has a history stretching backs years with unsubstantiated bullshit claims to push an agenda. Frustration with his tactics are obviously coming to a head. I banned myself from the PWL for the very reason of not being able to keep myself from slinging insults when debate got heated. I’m sure a successful and secure man such as CTP can stay calm and not resort to name calling but yet here we are.

I agree. He likes to put people into boxes and feels self-righteous about the constructs and agendas he has created to put everything into order that sometimes he doesn't even bother to back up his claims and reacts with varying intensity when people challenge him. He's been here long enough to know that MacNNers dissect the crap out of everything, so if he isn't prepared for that and putting these things under the microscope he is going to get some flack.

The factual presentation that OAW is known for (and ebuddy was known for as well) is very time consuming on all levels, I certainly usually don't have time for any of that, so I kind of understand his frustration with that at times. Yet, Badkosh and Chongo are perhaps good examples of alternate manageable behavior as they often skip out on the facts too, take a lot of flack, but always seem to bounce back without the drama that CTP gets caught up in where we go through the loop of a whole bunch of repetitive shit. Badkosh and Chongo's posts are often one or two sentence quips where they are invited to back up their statements and they often decline, which in some ways is better than this long drawn out multi-page regular CTP drama.

This frustrates people not only because of their beliefs of what the facts are, but also because it seems like arguing for the sake of arguing, and getting caught up in that with somebody can feel like a massive waste of time.

So, at this point I'm honestly ambivalent as to whether he stays or goes. Wasting time is certainly not a justifiable ban-able offence, but it is still wasting time and can be super annoying. I'm hoping he'll either implode and provide an actual Rob-esque ban-able offence we can all live with, or change his tactics. I think the probability of the latter happening is super low.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 13, 2017, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is there some difference between "calling out" and "personal attack I feel is justified"?

I'm not seeing it, and if it isn't there, let's call it what it is.
Yeah, there is.

I called him out for the Antifa/ISIS reference pretty much immediately (possibly under my "analogika" nick; can’t be arsed to log out and check the PWL), as it was obviously complete bullshit.

I did not personally attack him in that post.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 13, 2017, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Yeah, there is.

I called him out for the Antifa/ISIS reference pretty much immediately (possibly under my "analogika" nick; can’t be arsed to log out and check the PWL), as it was obviously complete bullshit.

I did not personally attack him in that post.
The example under consideration contains a half-dozen. I don't think they should be called the same thing.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 14, 2017, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The example under consideration contains a half-dozen. I don't think they should be called the same thing.
I have no idea what you are saying.

To be fair, I can't see my own post, it being in the PWL, nor anybody else's.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 14, 2017, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I have no idea what you are saying.

To be fair, I can't see my own post, it being in the PWL, nor anybody else's.
CTP was reported for insulting someone who "called him out".

I noted the "calling out" in question contained a half-dozen personal attacks.

As this is fundamentally unlike your example, which contained no personal attacks (I checked), I'm arguing they shouldn't share the same label in this discussion.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 14, 2017, 01:37 PM
 
Ah. I thought you meant "Is there some difference between 'calling out' and 'personal attack I feel is justified'?" as written, when in fact, you were simply pointing out that that particular poster was using the terms interchangeably.
     
besson3c
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Oct 14, 2017, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Ah. I thought you meant "Is there some difference between 'calling out' and 'personal attack I feel is justified'?" as written, when in fact, you were simply pointing out that that particular poster was using the terms interchangeably.

I remember back in the day you would get upset when people would say bad stuff about Apple. How this place has changed. Nowadays it's just some weird guy that claims he is rich going on about Antifa, and me.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 14, 2017, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I remember back in the day you would get upset when people would say bad stuff about Apple. How this place has changed. Nowadays it's just some weird guy that claims he is rich going on about Antifa, and me.
You've been around long enough to remember the days before I had myself banned from the PWL, no? I was passionately opposed to the lies and bullshit spread over there. It was TNproud2b/Spliffdaddy quite a bit back then, plus the same right-wingers still around today, trying to tell us how Saddam was al Qaeda and all.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 15, 2017, 12:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I’m sure a successful and secure man such as CTP can stay calm and not resort to name calling but yet here we are.
I'm willing to hold CTP responsible for his behavior, but my accounting includes years of way personal digs like this being made against him.
     
sek929
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Oct 15, 2017, 01:55 AM
 
How is that a dig?

His persona is incredibly sure of himself. I'm taking it at face value. If he is who he says he is surely he can stop getting involved in yelling matches, yes?

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
besson3c
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Oct 15, 2017, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You've been around long enough to remember the days before I had myself banned from the PWL, no? I was passionately opposed to the lies and bullshit spread over there. It was TNproud2b/Spliffdaddy quite a bit back then, plus the same right-wingers still around today, trying to tell us how Saddam was al Qaeda and all.

I don't really remember those guys and what they were like, sorry!
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 12:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
How is that a dig?
I'll accept whatever term for "person has failed to live up to a standard".

Well, maybe not any term... "compliment" would be a bad fit.

Regardless, no one else here gets what they've decided to share about their personal life used as a weapon against them in this manner.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 16, 2017, 12:56 AM
 
No-one else's personal life is quite so atypical.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 12:57 AM
 
And?
     
Paco500
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll accept whatever term for "person has failed to live up to a standard".

Well, maybe not any term... "compliment" would be a bad fit.

Regardless, no one else here gets what they've decided to share about their personal life used as a weapon against them in this manner.
That is categorically untrue. He has attacked almost every facet of others personal lives without restraint, from the absurd, ie repeatedly calling OAW 'professor' because he mentioned he studied latin, to regularly attacking those of other political persuasions of being bad parents- his attacks against Doc HM comes to mind, not to mention he has several times accused me of abusing my children. I would gladly quote those, but I can't find them- either I suck at searching or the posts have been deleted by mods.

I've likewise been mocked by another conservative member because I once said I used to manage a team of IT security analysts.

He may get more of it than others, but to claim he is a solitary victim is just wrong.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 16, 2017, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
And?
I sense you're taking me rather literally. I'm trying to be polite.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
sek929
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Oct 16, 2017, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Regardless, no one else here gets what they've decided to share about their personal life used as a weapon against them in this manner.
Nobody else uses their personal life as a trump card to constantly win arguments. His wealth and connections are intrinsically tied to most of his unprovable assertations. I can’t think of a single other member who does this, hence the disparity in how he is approached during debate.

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 16, 2017, 10:41 AM
 
Which of these is a personal attack or low blow? I'll use mild examples with no swearing to make it harder.

What you've just said makes no sense. It's a stupid argument.
You are stupid for saying such things.
You are presenting lies as truths just to mess with everyone. You have no credibility. You are a liar.
You are deranged and I feel sorry for your children that they have to be raised by you.
You are losing your mind. Seek help.

Is gaslighting a personal attack? Ad hominems? Is it against the rules or just bad form? Does it make a difference if it's true? Which of the above can be proved?
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 16, 2017, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Nobody else uses their personal life as a trump card to constantly win arguments. His wealth and connections are intrinsically tied to most of his unprovable assertations. I can’t think of a single other member who does this, hence the disparity in how he is approached during debate.
No lies detected.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 16, 2017, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Which of these is a personal attack or low blow? I'll use mild examples with no swearing to make it harder.

1.What you've just said makes no sense. It's a stupid argument.
2.You are stupid for saying such things.
3.You are presenting lies as truths just to mess with everyone. You have no credibility. You are a liar.
4.You are deranged and I feel sorry for your children that they have to be raised by you.
5.You are losing your mind. Seek help.

I walk the line as close as anyone and its been ages since I got an infraction. Perhaps thats because no-one has reported me, as I don't report others for name calling, but if not then I must conclude its because I try to be careful with my wording.

#1 Attacks the argument. Not personal.
#2 Attacks the person. Personal.
#3 If the assertion is correct, its factual so not an attack as I would define it. In a political campaign absolutely, but not a discussion or debate.
#4 Attacks the person since there is no qualification. Evidence of derangement might justify it but otherwise its just an insult. Personal.*
#5 Statement of opinion. May be true. Not an attack.


*Bringing someone's kids into it is always going to go against you.

Thats how I see them anyway.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Oct 16, 2017, 02:52 PM
 
andi*pandi: is this scale also relative to the issue at hand? If somebody came in here and was trying to make the claim that black people are inferior as human beings (a complete hypothetical, I'm not claiming anybody here has done this), would a more severe reaction be appropriate?
     
And.reg
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Which of these is a personal attack or low blow?
The recipient chooses to take offense.

If the lid is kept on the pot as the water in it heats up, eventually the lid will give way.

Maybe an update to Demonhood's "The Creed/Rules of the Fight .... er..Political Lounge v1.45" is in order. Or we could adopt what MacRumors does:

http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:Rul...opriate_Debate (note: this webpage isn't loading for me, if it's not, then try any of the links below)

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-...opriate-Debate

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...rated.2042155/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...forum.1073103/
This one time, at Boot Camp, I stuck a flute up my PC.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
That is categorically untrue. He has attacked almost every facet of others personal lives without restraint, from the absurd, ie repeatedly calling OAW 'professor' because he mentioned he studied latin, to regularly attacking those of other political persuasions of being bad parents- his attacks against Doc HM comes to mind, not to mention he has several times accused me of abusing my children. I would gladly quote those, but I can't find them- either I suck at searching or the posts have been deleted by mods.

I've likewise been mocked by another conservative member because I once said I used to manage a team of IT security analysts.

He may get more of it than others, but to claim he is a solitary victim is just wrong.
That he gets it more than others was my point. I apologize if it appeared my claim was one of exclusivity as opposed to quantity. My comment was meant to be taken in the context of this statement:

"I'm willing to hold CTP responsible for his behavior, but my accounting includes years of way personal digs like this being made against him."


I ran through the Brexit thread to refamiliarize myself with (one example) of the parenting thing. Despite the thread being about politics, the accusation was made during debate over whether Mustangs are works of art.

It's still a low blow, but not really politically based.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Which of these is a personal attack or low blow? I'll use mild examples with no swearing to make it harder.

What you've just said makes no sense. It's a stupid argument.
You are stupid for saying such things.
You are presenting lies as truths just to mess with everyone. You have no credibility. You are a liar.
You are deranged and I feel sorry for your children that they have to be raised by you.
You are losing your mind. Seek help.

Is gaslighting a personal attack? Ad hominems? Is it against the rules or just bad form? Does it make a difference if it's true? Which of the above can be proved?
Honestly, this seems cut and dried.

The first is not. The others are.

Whether a person is a liar or gaslighting depends on intent.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That he gets it more than others was my point. I apologize if it appeared my claim was one of exclusivity as opposed to quantity. My comment was meant to be taken in the context of this statement:

"I'm willing to hold CTP responsible for his behavior, but my accounting includes years of way personal digs like this being made against him."


I ran through the Brexit thread to refamiliarize myself with (one example) of the parenting thing. Despite the thread being about politics, the accusation was made during debate over whether Mustangs are works of art.

It's still a low blow, but not really politically based.
I think its partly down to him bringing personal aspects into it. Which isn't to say he's wrong to do so, we all draw on anecdotes and personal experiences but when you're someone who has always been there and done that, let alone did first and did it bigger/better, you open yourself to more and more.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
reader50
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Oct 16, 2017, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Which of these is a personal attack or low blow? I'll use mild examples with no swearing to make it harder.

What you've just said makes no sense. It's a stupid argument.
You are stupid for saying such things.
You are presenting lies as truths just to mess with everyone. You have no credibility. You are a liar.
You are deranged and I feel sorry for your children that they have to be raised by you.
You are losing your mind. Seek help.

Is gaslighting a personal attack? Ad hominems? Is it against the rules or just bad form? Does it make a difference if it's true? Which of the above can be proved?
My take, bearing in mind I'm not a PWL mod.

1. OK.
2. Very mild, OK in the PWL. Probably ok in the Lounge. Might draw rebuke in tech forums.
3. Moderate, mostly because of the "You are a liar". Might still pass in the PWL, but not ok anywhere else. However, if the statement(s) were obviously true, things could get interesting.
4. Personal attack.
5. OK.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Oct 16, 2017, 05:38 PM
 
My 2 cents ...

I've also never reported anyone to the mods for any reason. I know for a fact that CTP can't say the same. The man is a shit disturber and a poser who routinely makes unsupported and typically non-factual assertions backed up by nothing more than his arrogance. More importantly he's a whiner who can dish it but can't take it when the barbs start coming back in his direction. Indeed he's the sort who will publicly and very intentionally stir the pot in a thread in order to provoke someone into making a so-called "personal attack" against him ... and then privately run to the mods behind the scenes. All while pretending he had nothing to do with it. That's his M.O. So I can certainly see how he's managed to exhaust the patience of the mods and get himself banned for the second time in as many months. That being said, as much as he manages to get on my last nerve with these type of shenanigans I personally wouldn't have banned him over his comments in that Vegas thread. Not a criticism of the mods ... just an observation. Perhaps public shaming by the mods might prove a more effective means of encouraging CTP to check himself and cut out all the BS?

OAW
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Oct 16, 2017, 07:41 PM
 
I ultimately like everyone here, so the situation in general is one I find difficult to approach.

That said, there is no question his antagonism towards you is off the scale, and I don't approve of it.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Oct 16, 2017, 09:39 PM
 
OAW handles himself with such grace and patience. I don't know how he does it.
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Oct 16, 2017, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
My take, bearing in mind I'm not a PWL mod.

1. OK.
2. Very mild, OK in the PWL. Probably ok in the Lounge. Might draw rebuke in tech forums.
3. Moderate, mostly because of the "You are a liar". Might still pass in the PWL, but not ok anywhere else. However, if the statement(s) were obviously true, things could get interesting.
4. Personal attack.
5. OK.
I'm pretty much on the same page - and I am a PWL mod.

However, I don't think #5 is OK. I think it's just a hair past #2 as a personal attack, and I think it would be on the edge of acceptable in the PWL. I recall similar statements such as "how long have you been off your meds?" rating rebukes in the PWL specifically because they were too personal.

Minor sidebar:
One facet of my profession is mental health; occupational therapists are, by definition, "psychosocial practitioners." This means we can provide counseling, and we provide interventions (treatments) with mental health problems. So maybe I'm a bit more sensitive to how someone who's gotten a diagnosis of clinical depression would feel if someone else, unknowingly of course, tossed about something like "you're insane" or "why are you off your meds."

Too many people avoid seeking help with things like depression because of the stigma of "mental illness" attached to even mentioning emotional problems, and the stigma becomes a form of personal shame if one has to actually receive treatment. And failing to seek, or stick with treatment is often a factor in suicide. Yes, I went there, and it's not for shock value. I don't take even a casual remark about someone else's mental health as "in fun." That's me...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
 
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