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Donald Trump, 45th President of the United States of America: The Drinking Thread (Page 8)
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 27, 2017, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Infrastructure and job creation.
Job creation is pretty nebulous. So far his preferred methods for it are killing refs and, I suspect we're about to see, tax cuts.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 27, 2017, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Except when it doesn't. Do his immigration policies help the wealthy?
That's a good point, but I have to counter that your exception is still right wing.
     
subego
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Mar 27, 2017, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Job creation is pretty nebulous. So far his preferred methods for it are killing refs and, I suspect we're about to see, tax cuts.
Refs?

What about trade protectionism?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 27, 2017, 02:31 PM
 
Regs-autocorrect

I had forgotten about trade protectionism but I'm skeptical any but the far left is agreeable.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 27, 2017, 11:58 PM
 
Subego, I realize you're busy, but I was interested in trying to resolve this: http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...6/#post4377387
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 28, 2017, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Have your expectations been fulfilled on that front?

If not, Q.E.D.
QED what? Instead of people believing what he says, they now ignore it.
     
subego
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Mar 28, 2017, 07:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
QED what? Instead of people believing what he says, they now ignore it.
subego: How do standards of what we expect of the president factor into the analysis of his meaning? Either the analysis is correct or it is not.

Dakar: Because we have expectations someone in his position chooses his words carefully.

s: Does he choose his words carefully? I claim he does not, so interpreting his words as such will lead to incorrect analysis. The fact he should choose his words carefully has zero impact on whether he does.
( Last edited by subego; Mar 28, 2017 at 08:35 AM. )
     
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Mar 28, 2017, 08:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ok, on a keyboard: I'm gonna go over a few of these again, because some warrant more in depth discussion.
I could use some further explanation on this one as to how exactly. I've also seen it argued that illegal immigration is useful for the rich, thereby making it classist in both states. But, it's only racist in one.

Looking at federal statistics, the vast majority of federal drug prisoners are non-white. I assume anyone Sessions targets will not be going to state jail.

This is absurd. It's the "I have a black friend" defense. I posit this: Is it easier to get a muslim ban enacted if you ban all countries or only a few countries?

If you want to get rid of all muslims, do you only take a binary position, or do you take what you can get?

It wouldn't work if it didn't disproportionately impact one race. They are intrinsically linked.

Ok, let me approach this another way: Wouldn't the timing of the promulgation of these laws indicate racist intent?

---

Allow me to make my point another way: Including past GOP administrations of the last 30 years or so, where would you rank this one in terms of most overtly impacting or targeting people of color in the US?
This administration comparatively scores very badly when it comes to immigration. Reagan had an amnesty program, and Bush 43 loved him some brown people, but his party shot him down. When it comes to drugs, pretty sure Reagan's people started the crack epidemic, so this administration hasn't even anted-up yet.

I'll work up individual answers.
     
subego
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Mar 28, 2017, 08:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ok, on a keyboard: I'm gonna go over a few of these again, because some warrant more in depth discussion.
I could use some further explanation on this one as to how exactly. I've also seen it argued that illegal immigration is useful for the rich, thereby making it classist in both states. But, it's only racist in one.

Looking at federal statistics, the vast majority of federal drug prisoners are non-white. I assume anyone Sessions targets will not be going to state jail.

This is absurd. It's the "I have a black friend" defense. I posit this: Is it easier to get a muslim ban enacted if you ban all countries or only a few countries?

If you want to get rid of all muslims, do you only take a binary position, or do you take what you can get?

It wouldn't work if it didn't disproportionately impact one race. They are intrinsically linked.
I don't understand this last bit, the way it works is to impact the party. Why wouldn't it work on white People?

Trump will never ban the Saudis or the UAE. How do you get a Muslim ban if these Muslims will never get banned?

My point about state vs. federal is a State's attorney can put away 10,000 POC for every 1,000 an AG can put away.

I claim the administration is classist with their immigration policy because it's been the poor immigrants which bother them. Rich Mexicans (for example) are fine.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 4, 2017, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't understand this last bit, the way it works is to impact the party. Why wouldn't it work on white People?
White people aren't reliably democrat. Here, try this coincidence: The laws started appearing after democratic president made AA turn-out surge.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Trump will never ban the Saudis or the UAE. How do you get a Muslim ban if these Muslims will never get banned?
This is absurd. It's the "I have a black friend" defense. … If you want to get rid of all muslims, do you only take a binary position, or do you take what you can get?
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My point about state vs. federal is a State's attorney can put away 10,000 POC for every 1,000 an AG can put away.
That's a point about effectiveness, not disparity of enforcement.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I claim the administration is classist with their immigration policy because it's been the poor immigrants which bother them. Rich Mexicans (for example) are fine.
They are?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 4, 2017, 08:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
subego: How do standards of what we expect of the president factor into the analysis of his meaning? Either the analysis is correct or it is not.

Dakar: Because we have expectations someone in his position chooses his words carefully.

s: Does he choose his words carefully? I claim he does not, so interpreting his words as such will lead to incorrect analysis. The fact he should choose his words carefully has zero impact on whether he does.
Okay, being able to review the convo, here's the point that's been lurking below the surface to me: If he doesn't speak plainly/well, doesn't that allow him to retcon what he meant?

It's almost like lawyerly semantics but in reverse. Speak so poorly no one can pin you down.
     
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Apr 4, 2017, 08:51 PM
 
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 5, 2017, 01:22 PM
 
Where's the chart showing Obama's last quarter report and Trump's first quarter?
     
Laminar
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Apr 5, 2017, 03:38 PM
 
Where's the chart showing the impact a president has on each metric and the time required for each to be affected by policies implemented?
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 5, 2017, 04:03 PM
 
Another good chart to have!
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 5, 2017, 06:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Where's the chart showing the impact a president has on each metric and the time required for each to be affected by policies implemented?
Assuming this is sarcasm, I don't think there's a good way to scientifically measure such things. As it is, I think we overrate how much of an impact presidents have. IMO, too much of their impact is emotional, anyway (see: Wall Street)
     
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Apr 5, 2017, 06:41 PM
 
Shocking news: Implied pussy-grabber Donald Trump doesn't think Bill O' Reilly did anything wrong. Happy Sexual Assualt Awareness Month!
     
Laminar
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Apr 6, 2017, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Assuming this is sarcasm, I don't think there's a good way to scientifically measure such things. As it is, I think we overrate how much of an impact presidents have. IMO, too much of their impact is emotional, anyway (see: Wall Street)
I mean, I'd actually like to see a chart, but I know that's not at thing. It's mostly a snipe at how if good things are happening and your candidate is in office, it'd due to his or her actions. If your opponent is in office, it's because your candidate set them up for success.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 6, 2017, 10:30 AM
 
The only chart I've seen is in terms of raw numbers dem presidents are better than GOP ones. Anecdotally I agree but it's likely too superficial.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 02:57 AM
 
i mean you guys could look it up:

"why am i not being presented something that supports my argument!?!?"
     
Laminar
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Apr 7, 2017, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
i mean you guys could look it up:

"why am i not being presented something that supports my argument!?!?"
Care to share your interpretation of the 1st Quarter Report whiteboard?
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 7, 2017, 12:33 PM
 
The point is not that the Fox chart doesn't support my argument, it's that it doesn't support logic, causality, or apples/apples comparisons.

more comparable comparisons:
change from bush last quarter to obama first quarter
vs
change from obama last quarter to trump first quarter.

The fox news chart was either intentionally disingenuous, or designed by idiots.
     
Laminar
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Apr 7, 2017, 01:06 PM
 
That's just what you want to believe.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 01:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Care to share your interpretation of the 1st Quarter Report whiteboard?
Sure. I don't believe there's much to interpret. Different set of circumstances. Apple to Orange President comparison.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The point is not that the Fox chart doesn't support my argument, it's that it doesn't support logic, causality, or apples/apples comparisons.
I understand that, so instead of whining about how you're not seeing the metrics that support that argument, you could present them to us! You've even already told us what you want to present!

more comparable comparisons:
change from bush last quarter to obama first quarter
vs
change from obama last quarter to trump first quarter.
I will gladly discuss those with you! Let's see em! You have google, right?

The fox news chart was either intentionally disingenuous, or designed by idiots.
Or designed for pageviews, like every other media source lib or conservative.

Sometimes the answer is so simple it surprises me that they still get your attention with sensationalism.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 01:35 PM
 
Sure, I could find the data for you and I to discuss... but the point isn't for US to discuss. We already know the fox chart is silly, right?

The point is, not just that it's WRONG, but that it is presented as fact by a news organization, and that is what a lot of fox's audience will buy into hook line and sinker. This only contributes to a disconnect from reality, and it's how idiots get other idiots elected. To those of us who are NOT idiots, it feels like swimming upstream when the idiot dam has burst. Tiring, and over time, seemingly pointless. All hail the idiot king!

I am not a news organization. I am not responsible for upholding news information standards, but I am allowed to be aghast.
     
Laminar
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Apr 7, 2017, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Different set of circumstances.
Could you expound on this?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 7, 2017, 08:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
more comparable comparisons:
change from bush last quarter to obama first quarter
vs
change from obama last quarter to trump first quarter.
I mean, I don't think even that is a reasonable comparison. The US was in a terrible recession then, and right now the US seems to be in a steady place. I don't need to see the data to know a lot of jobs were lost during Obama's 1st Q.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The fox news chart was either intentionally disingenuous, or designed by idiots.
It was Grade A trolling by Bolling. I posted it because it's ****ing hilarious. It's completely and utterly shameless.
     
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Apr 7, 2017, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
i mean you guys could look it up:

"why am i not being presented something that supports my argument!?!?"
These numbers have no bearing on the performance of these Presidents. The Trump administration hasn't passed a single big piece of legislation, so it couldn't have had any influence on the stats yet. By this time Bush 2 already had signed No Child Left Behind. If anything you should compare the stats of previous Presidents when they took office with those when they left office. Obama came to power during the height of an economic crisis. Trump's incoming numbers are actually Obama's outgoing numbers, so if you want to judge Obama's Presidency based on that, you have your answer.

What I find more disturbing, though, is how much power and responsibility Americans ascribe to the President and how little Congress takes. During 6 years of Obama's 8 years in office, the GOP held at least one chamber. Why don't they take more pride and responsibility that during this time, the meltdown of the US economy was prevented and it recovered?
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Apr 7, 2017, 11:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What I find more disturbing, though, is how much power and responsibility Americans ascribe to the President and how little Congress takes. During 6 years of Obama's 8 years in office, the GOP held at least one chamber. Why don't they take more pride and responsibility that during this time, the meltdown of the US economy was prevented and it recovered?

Wasn't that in spite of the GOP for the most part?

If congress got the credit it deserved, most of the sitting members probably wouldn't be there right now.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Apr 8, 2017, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Wasn't that in spite of the GOP for the most part?

If congress got the credit it deserved, most of the sitting members probably wouldn't be there right now.
I understand your argument, and I agree with the sentiment. But in a democracy, the main responsibility should go to the parliaments, and if that were the case here, then the party which has the majority in Congress may take more initiative because it is their responsibility, their gain in case of success and their loss if things go badly.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 12, 2017, 05:05 PM
 
Man, this week is something else if you want to see Trump contradict himself. Syria, China, the military, interest rates. It's amazing.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 12, 2017, 05:49 PM
 
I'd attribute some of this normalization to Bannon losing influence, but I suspect most of these stances he's contradicting were taken before Bannon joined the campaign.
     
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Apr 12, 2017, 06:41 PM
 
Looks like Trump can't even handle planning an Easter Egg Roll properly.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 12, 2017, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Looks like Trump can't even handle planning an Easter Egg Roll properly.
This is only noteworthy because the trouble comes from them being understaffed.

In a related note, Trump did lift his hiring freeze after 80 days.
     
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Apr 12, 2017, 07:24 PM
 
Yes, Melania didn't hire the normal staff the First Lady requires... and substitute First Lady/Daughter didn't either.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 12, 2017, 11:59 PM
 


We've elected a moron as President.
     
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Apr 13, 2017, 11:26 AM
 
Duh.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 12:15 PM
 
I have to say, I like Melania a bit more for this:

Melania Trump had to give President Trump a reminder during the White House Easter Egg Roll | Rare

(the internet failed me, I could not find a basic gif to post.)

Also, Barron is getting very tall.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Could you expound on this?
Sure.

America was in a completely different economic state when both presidents took office. The factors driving Obama's numbers were not the same as those driving Trump's.
     
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Apr 18, 2017, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
These numbers have no bearing on the performance of these Presidents. The Trump administration hasn't passed a single big piece of legislation, so it couldn't have had any influence on the stats yet. By this time Bush 2 already had signed No Child Left Behind. If anything you should compare the stats of previous Presidents when they took office with those when they left office. Obama came to power during the height of an economic crisis. Trump's incoming numbers are actually Obama's outgoing numbers, so if you want to judge Obama's Presidency based on that, you have your answer.
Precisely.
What I find more disturbing, though, is how much power and responsibility Americans ascribe to the President and how little Congress takes. During 6 years of Obama's 8 years in office, the GOP held at least one chamber. Why don't they take more pride and responsibility that during this time, the meltdown of the US economy was prevented and it recovered?
First, the meltdown was not prevented. It happened.

Second, it's not like we republicans weren't screaming "STOP LETTING THE PRESIDENT GIVE HIMSELF MORE POWER HE SHOULD NOT HAVE" during Obama's 8 years. The ends justified the means at the time, so here we are now. On these very boards I warned of that several times in several threads.

He had a pen and a phone, and now he's out of office. Too bad the next president also has a pen and a phone, and so will the next one and the one after that.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 04:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
First, the meltdown was not prevented. It happened.
There was a huge financial crisis, but the collapse of several branches of industries was prevented by state intervention (due to Bush 2 and continued by Obama).
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Second, it's not like we republicans weren't screaming "STOP LETTING THE PRESIDENT GIVE HIMSELF MORE POWER HE SHOULD NOT HAVE" during Obama's 8 years. The ends justified the means at the time, so here we are now. On these very boards I warned of that several times in several threads.
Powers Congress has (either willingly or by inaction) ceded to the Presidency are never recovered. Blaming the guy from the opposite party doesn't cut it. Nothing prevents Congress to assert more power and start to take some back. The GOP is following exactly the same pattern as the Democrats have: they were lenient on Bush, tough on Obama and are again lenient on Trump. The competition of Congress and the Presidency for power that the Founding Fathers have envisioned isn't working properly because political parties weren't part of the design. Why didn't Trump seek for congressional authorization for the military strike in Syria? Trump based this on Obama's decision that he was within his rights to attack Libya, something the GOP protested against. Seeing how many hawks on both sides support the attack, I don't think Congressional support was ever in doubt. Start here, start when “your guy” is in power.

Back to my original point, if the party in control of Congress (here, the GOP) would take more credit for the development of the country during that period, they'd also feel more responsibility to improve things as any failure would reflect badly on them.
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Apr 19, 2017, 05:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I keep trying to like Melania but I keep remembering that she married Donald. She could have had her pick of fat, ugly, rich assholes and pretty much anyone else would have been less awful than him.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 19, 2017, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I keep trying to like Melania but I keep remembering that she married Donald. She could have had her pick of fat, ugly, rich assholes and pretty much anyone else would have been less awful than him.
I wouldn't be so sure. This rich asshole happened to own the modeling agency she was working for and may have held her residency in his hands when she was working illegally.
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 12:27 PM
 
Jeeesus Christ.

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Apr 19, 2017, 01:45 PM
 
"You know I wouldn't survive the immigration jail, Donnie. You know who is in there? People who bring the drugs. People who bring the crime. People who are the rapists.

Some I assume are good people."
     
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Apr 19, 2017, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
There was a huge financial crisis, but the collapse of several branches of industries was prevented by state intervention (due to Bush 2 and continued by Obama).
True, we're talking semantics here, but I personally would classify the crisis as a meltdown, as the housing market melted down.

Powers Congress has (either willingly or by inaction) ceded to the Presidency are never recovered. Blaming the guy from the opposite party doesn't cut it.
I don't blame the ruling class for seeking more power. That's human nature. I blame the constituencies for not only letting it happen, but for supporting it. My entire problem with liberalism is that at every turn, the ends always justify the means, and it will not be long before the unintended consequences of the shortsightedness will come to fruition. Bush did it with the patriot act, Obama did it with his pen and his phone, and now Trump has way more power than he otherwise would. The ones before him opened the door to cheers from the audience. You're right that aside a revolution or unprecedented supreme court ruling the cat is out of the bag.

Nothing prevents Congress to assert more power and start to take some back.
Human nature ensures that asserting more power is a given, and "taking some back" is a pipe dream.

The GOP is following exactly the same pattern as the Democrats have: they were lenient on Bush, tough on Obama and are again lenient on Trump.
The ruling class vs us, as I have been saying for years. It's not just the GOP doing this.

The competition of Congress and the Presidency for power that the Founding Fathers have envisioned isn't working properly because political parties weren't part of the design.
No, it's because we've allowed the courts to gut the checks and balances built into the design to suit their own ends ostensibly to benefit us, but in reality to push their own agendas. This should not be surprising to anyone familiar with the history of societies throughout our specie's history.

Why didn't Trump seek for congressional authorization for the military strike in Syria? Trump based this on Obama's decision that he was within his rights to attack Libya, something the GOP protested against. Seeing how many hawks on both sides support the attack, I don't think Congressional support was ever in doubt. Start here, start when “your guy” is in power.
Trump is not my guy. Pay attention to what I am saying here.

Why would Trump seek congressional approval when the precedent, supported by the masses, is that he does not need it??

Should I also remind you that we've been performing airstrikes in Syria for years? This wasn't out of the blue, nor was it any different than what previous administrations have been doing.

Back to my original point, if the party in control of Congress (here, the GOP) would take more credit for the development of the country during that period, they'd also feel more responsibility to improve things as any failure would reflect badly on them.
They don't need to take credit. They already control both houses and presidency, and none of them care about the future beyond their next election.

What possible benefit to them would your strategy bring them? You act as if anyone in Congress truly cares about what's best for us. 11 times out of 10, when the decision point for a lawmaker is between "benefits me or my next election" vs "does not benefit me and/or hurts my chances in the next election" they will pick the former, no matter the long term ramifications or precedent being set. To view our, or any other ruling class in any other light is foolishly naive, no matter the party or ideology they belong to. Sure, you can find exceptions, but to deny it as a whole is to deny human behavior itself.

That is what is so exceptional about our founding and our constitution, and why it is up to us to maintain it's provisions. We cannot rely on the ruling class to rule against themselves.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 19, 2017, 08:30 PM
 
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 20, 2017, 11:55 AM
 
I feel like congress being in recess stabilized Trumps approval. Curious if when they get back next week it starts jumping around again.

Of course the possibility of a shutdown or shutdown brinksmanship may get factor in as well.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 20, 2017, 08:35 PM
 
Or was it bombing Syria that stabilised him?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
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