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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > Feedback > The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This

The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This (Page 5)
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Chongo
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Sep 20, 2017, 12:31 PM
 
That's the wrong Hammer.

This is the correct Hammer.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Sep 20, 2017 at 12:57 PM. Reason: gif no work)
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Sep 20, 2017, 12:42 PM
 
Did you know that MC Hammer is a devout catholic?
     
Chongo
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Sep 20, 2017, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Did you know that MC Hammer is a devout catholic?
He's an ordained Pentecostal minister. He's been on TBN and has a show on there as well.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Sep 20, 2017, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
He's an ordained Pentecostal minister. He's been on TBN and has a show on there as well.

No, he's a catholic. If global warming is a hoax I have a right to my own facts too
     
P
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Sep 20, 2017, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and I suppose you think that actually means something? Who has had the most reports filed against them?
It means that if you think that everyone should stop reporting so much, perhaps you should lead by example?

If 5 people file 6 reports against 1 person and that 1 person files 8 total reports against 5 different people, who do you think the system is favoring? I'll let you think about that, take as much time as you need.
A report means exactly one thing: a post is made in a special hidden forum, and an alert is sent out to mods of the forum where the original post was made. There is nothing automatic beyond that - a mod has to make a decision on whether that post deserves an infraction or not. All it does is serve to alert someone to a post that they may not otherwise have seen. Nothing stops a mod from assigning infractions on a post nobody has reported, or reporting it themselves to start a discussion.

While you're at it, maybe you should think about your intentions in misusing such information that only the staff has access to, and think about whether it's right to try and use it in an attempt to degrade a forum member. Maybe you should consider how ethical that was.
I did consider that, actually. I purposefully kept my post very vague, merely noting that you were in the lead. If you recall, we used to have a little competition for who made the most spam reports each month, with detailed numbers posted. This was more vague than that.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 20, 2017, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
No, he's a catholic. If global warming is a hoax I have a right to my own facts too
You're thinking of MC Malleus.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 20, 2017, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
It means that if you think that everyone should stop reporting so much, perhaps you should lead by example?
an example that most within the community will ignore and only exploit, due to hatred over ideological differences? You're seeing the antagonism over merely stating there's a problem, right?

A report means exactly one thing: a post is made in a special hidden forum, and an alert is sent out to mods of the forum where the original post was made. There is nothing automatic beyond that - a mod has to make a decision on whether that post deserves an infraction or not. All it does is serve to alert someone to a post that they may not otherwise have seen. Nothing stops a mod from assigning infractions on a post nobody has reported, or reporting it themselves to start a discussion.
That's why subego pointed out that there's, at the very least the perception of, unequal moderation.

I did consider that, actually. I purposefully kept my post very vague, merely noting that you were in the lead. If you recall, we used to have a little competition for who made the most spam reports each month, with detailed numbers posted. This was more vague than that.
You're comparing that to the spam competition? You considered it, thought it over, but decided to divulge private information anyway? Wow.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 21, 2017, 05:20 AM
 
and a new infraction (big 10 pointer) for this comment:

^^ Or you're so ideologically absorbed that you're unfit for contact with most other people? He's right, such titles, in a vacuum, are pretty entertaining. The fact you can't see that says more about you.
Ridiculous.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
P
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Sep 21, 2017, 07:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
an example that most within the community will ignore and only exploit, due to hatred over ideological differences? You're seeing the antagonism over merely stating there's a problem, right?
No, I figured that you'd realize that there is no way to tell how many reports someone has made unless you're a mod.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's why subego pointed out that there's, at the very least the perception of, unequal moderation.
How do you think this works? If someone has been reported 5 times they should get an infraction even if all 5 reports were BS? If a mod sees a violation, they should be prevented from handing out an infraction until it has been reported?

The rules are posted, and the mods are trying to enforce them as best we can. The report system is just a way to alert us.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You're comparing that to the spam competition? You considered it, thought it over, but decided to divulge private information anyway? Wow.
I figured that you had opened the door by complaining about how many reports are made in a discussion about moderation, and I don't think you are justified in feeling that this is absolutely private information given that we divulged much the same thing regularly for years without anyone complaining. So yes, I did consider it, and I made my wording vague to avoid leaking any information about who, what or when you had reported.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
And.reg
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Sep 21, 2017, 08:54 AM
 
Popcorn and butter is on me guys. (Literally.)


This one time, at Boot Camp, I stuck a flute up my PC.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 21, 2017, 09:07 AM
 
and I'm saying I simply do not believe the staff, they've hedged, and even outright lied (about "talks" within them I'd never had), in this very discussion. Then to top it off the usual suspects can't help but thread crap and screech for thread closure, for no other reason than to show they can, when it's easier to not open the thread at all, if it bothers them so much.

This is simple, several people report me for the most trivial things (like the example I posted above), even mods. If you want to see bona-fide examples of what should be given infractions you can check out where Chongo is mocked for a whole page over his religious beliefs, and that happens on the regular here. Now the mods have simply decided to infract me to hell to get rid of the problem, like the way an HR dept gets rid of someone they don't like, but they want an out that they can point to when the fired employee decides to file a grievance. It's no wonder this place is down to a couple dozen posters, from >1000 on any given day, but no, it's the fault of all those other former members, the dozens upon dozens who have been banned over the years, for no other reason than they rubbed a few others the wrong way.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 21, 2017, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
Popcorn and butter is on me guys. (Literally.)


Yeah, I'm glad you enjoy your ghosttown, it's wonderful, isn't it?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Chongo
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Sep 21, 2017, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and I'm saying I simply do not believe the staff, they've hedged, and even outright lied (about "talks" within them I'd never had), in this very discussion. Then to top it off the usual suspects can't help but thread crap and screech for thread closure, for no other reason than to show they can, when it's easier to not open the thread at all, if it bothers them so much.

This is simple, several people report me for the most trivial things (like the example I posted above), even mods. If you want to see bona-fide examples of what should be given infractions you can check out where Chongo is mocked for a whole page over his religious beliefs, and that happens on the regular here. Now the mods have simply decided to infract me to hell to get rid of the problem, like the way an HR dept gets rid of someone they don't like, but they want an out that they can point to when the fired employee decides to file a grievance. It's no wonder this place is down to a couple dozen posters, from >1000 on any given day, but no, it's the fault of all those other former members, the dozens upon dozens who have been banned over the years, for no other reason than they rubbed a few others the wrong way.
AFAIK, Big Mac shook the dust off his feet.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 21, 2017, 02:12 PM
 
How many points is a temp ban?
     
Chongo
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Sep 21, 2017, 02:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How many points is a temp ban?
Almost as much as double secret probation.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 21, 2017, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
you can check out where Chongo is mocked for a whole page over his religious beliefs,
Mocked or questioned? Because his religious beliefs strongly shape his politics and in the PWL his politics have to be available for questioning like everyone elses.

Mockery can be a fine line away from a personal attack but questioning someones religious beliefs is not an attack. Ideas are not people.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Sep 22, 2017, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Mocked or questioned? Because his religious beliefs strongly shape his politics and in the PWL his politics have to be available for questioning like everyone elses.

Mockery can be a fine line away from a personal attack but questioning someones religious beliefs is not an attack. Ideas are not people.
Is this mocking or questioning?
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Look you guys, there's like this Catholic hospital that doesn't charge to treat people, so why do we need health insurance at all? All of those people that are bankrupt from medical bills, suffering due to inability to afford treatment, or have died due to lack of available healthcare are suckers for not just popping over to the free Catholic hospital!
It looks like Bess thinks so.
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I know that enjoying seeing somebody mocked is a sin that I will go to hell for, but this was a beaut!
I have no time to search through threads at this time. I'm sure I can find worse examples.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Sep 22, 2017, 10:18 AM
 
It is mockery, but mockery of this ideological position, not necessarily mockery of Chongo as an individual. Well, maybe it is that too, but only because Chongo has associated himself so closely with his ideological identity of all-things-Catholism. I actually admire his bravery in doing so.

Ideological ideas of all forms are mocked regularly in the PWL. I'm not sure it can exist without this, whether it is in the form of sarcasm, ridicule, not being treating seriously, etc. I think that people don't put their ideas out there without expecting this sort of sass in response.

Tightpants, on the other hand, has at times made things a little personal by his insistence of trying to put everybody into a little box, and obsessing for and against these various caricatures he depicts.
( Last edited by besson3c; Sep 22, 2017 at 12:25 PM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 22, 2017, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Tightpants, on the other hand, has at times made things a little personal...
All the "liar" shit is way ****ing personal.
     
reader50
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Sep 22, 2017, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How many points is a temp ban?
Passing the 20pt line with active points. Expired points don't count. In theory, crossing higher 10-pt lines, but I don't believe those have ever been tripped.
     
Laminar
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Sep 22, 2017, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It looks like Bess thinks so.
Do you disagree with the sentiment of my post? It's nearly word-for-word stuff you've posted before.
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 22, 2017, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Passing the 20pt line with active points. Expired points don't count. In theory, crossing higher 10-pt lines, but I don't believe those have ever been tripped.
Thank you!
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 22, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think that people don't put their ideas out there without expecting this sort of sass in response.
Actually a lot of people do tend to operate like religious ideas should be beyond criticism or mockery. Not necessarily here, and of course they are wrong because no idea should be free from criticism or mockery. Its just an idea, you can't hurt its feelings. If someone who likes it chooses to take offence in its name, that has to be their problem. It can be a fine line to walk when you're doing the mocking and it can be very very hard to maintain in your own mind that someone can mock, deride or even hate ideas that you cherish without feeling the same way about you yourself, but it is very very possible. Common in fact.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Sep 22, 2017, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Actually a lot of people do tend to operate like religious ideas should be beyond criticism or mockery. Not necessarily here, and of course they are wrong because no idea should be free from criticism or mockery. Its just an idea, you can't hurt its feelings. If someone who likes it chooses to take offence in its name, that has to be their problem. It can be a fine line to walk when you're doing the mocking and it can be very very hard to maintain in your own mind that someone can mock, deride or even hate ideas that you cherish without feeling the same way about you yourself, but it is very very possible. Common in fact.

I agree with this, but up to a point.

We are in a weird place now where a part of the population (Trump, and others on the right wing, for example) seem to subscribe to a coarse and at times brutal way of communicating, and another part is very politically correct.

If you disagree with an idea, the former population might call the person making the argument a snowflake. This is an ad hominem, but the person making this argument would claim that this is their way of criticizing the idea. It is nearly impossible to discern whether making an ad hominem like this is an effective way to make the opposition clear, vs. being perceived as a light personal attack, vs. being a really vicious attack that cuts into something really deep.

I don't like this "suck it up, buttercup", or "any way I make an argument is okay" approach, for a number of reasons. For one, it adds a lot of often needless extra emotion and hostility, but secondly it is incredibly empathy-deficient and is a great way to completely shut down a conversation and an opportunity to connect with people.

On the other hand, you have people like Tightpants who are quick to point out extreme examples of political correctness, and in many cases they are right. However, people that have low tolerances for political correctness often seem sharp tongued about anything that remotely resembles political correctness perhaps because of confirmation bias ("I've seen this before so it must be that again"). Political correctness should be combated, but you can't just label everything as political correctness and ratchet up the doucheyness.

The way I tend to approach this is as follows:

- If you don't respect actual facts and reject rational dissection of factually incorrect statements, I don't mind cranking up the hostility because we can't have any sort of conversation if we can't agree upon the facts. Get with the program. I know I've been pretty harsh with Badkosh and Chongo about climate change, but at this point I think there is nothing left but to urge them to pull their heads out of their asses

- Avoid all ad hominems with people (unless the above applies) because they usually aren't necessary and carry a lot of problems

- When people get emotionally riled up, don't double-down like a douche bag. Try to figure out how to approach the situation with some empathy
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 22, 2017, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Passing the 20pt line with active points.
Since I had 25 piled at once, causing the temp ban, and then 5 was removed, shouldn't I have been unbanned, since I wasn't then over 20?

(I'm aware that was later found to be an error, but at the time you didn't know that.)
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 22, 2017, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Actually a lot of people do tend to operate like religious ideas should be beyond criticism or mockery.
You don't mock the ideas, you guys mock him, and it's ****ed up.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 22, 2017, 09:06 PM
 
Have I mocked him? I don't remember mocking him recently. I'm not going to flat out deny it, but I don't think I've mocked him.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 22, 2017, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Since I had 25 piled at once, causing the temp ban, and then 5 was removed, shouldn't I have been unbanned, since I wasn't then over 20?

(I'm aware that was later found to be an error, but at the time you didn't know that.)
25-5 = 20 and you get auto-temp-banned starting from 20. So you were still over the threshold.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
reader50
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Sep 23, 2017, 02:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Passing the 20pt line with active points.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Since I had 25 piled at once, causing the temp ban, and then 5 was removed, shouldn't I have been unbanned, since I wasn't then over 20?

(I'm aware that was later found to be an error, but at the time you didn't know that.)
You received 20 points at the time, with no previous active points, reaching a total of 20. I sent the PM, then found the error/had it pointed out to me within a few minutes.

20pt is the trigger line - reaching it counts. I phrased it oddly "passing the 20pt" because vB is a little odd. I explored how infraction bans worked once with a test account. Here's something that can happen:

TestUser gets an accumulation of points, each of which have separate expiration dates. Total stands at 19pt.

TestUser gets a couple more, jumping to 35pts. TestUser gets a week vacation.

The ban expires a week later. While some of the points have expired too, TestUser still has 25 active points.

The next day, TestUser gets another 1pt for language, total jumps to 26pts. Nothing happens, because it didn't cross the 20 line. In other words, vB compares the total before and after each infraction. For an autoban to happen, the initial total must be below 20, and the later total >= 20.

This is a bug. Such a user could get points indefinitely. So long as their active total never dips below 20, they would be immune to further autobans.

The above situation is unlikely in practice, but I added extra triggers at 30,40,50,etc as a workaround. In reality, the bug is hard enough to reach that we've never hit it. Nor have we ever hit the higher triggers. Since it requires unlikely initial conditions, it's probably unreported and unfixed even in the latest vB.

edit: btw, anyone can check their infractions on their profile page (scroll down). This section is not visible to other members. It shows the active total, with any active ones at the top + their expiration dates. Expired old ones are listed next. The expiration dates can vary because vB sets a longer lifespan on new points if they're added while there are existing active points.
( Last edited by reader50; Sep 23, 2017 at 02:31 AM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 23, 2017, 02:32 AM
 
The above situation is unlikely in practice, but I added extra triggers at 30,40,50,etc as a workaround. In reality, the bug is hard enough to reach that we've never hit it. Nor have we ever hit the higher triggers. Since it requires unlikely initial conditions, it's probably unreported and unfixed even in the latest vB.
Well, don't look now, because at least one mod is on a tear and is determined to test it out, trying to warn and infract me for virtually every post now.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
besson3c
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Sep 23, 2017, 01:43 PM
 
How do you know that that mod isn't a Russian bot?
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 23, 2017, 01:51 PM
 
So, how many points do I get for calling someone a liar?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 23, 2017, 02:17 PM
 
With the wild infractor on the loose, I'm just posting as if each is likely my last (because no matter what's in it they'll find something to take issue with). It's rather exhilarating.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 23, 2017, 02:40 PM
 
I asked, and in about a month CTP has gotten enough infractions to be near his second ban.

For the previous several months, he received none.

How am I supposed to interpret this? Does the staff think this is consistent moderation (i.e. there was no infraction-worthy behavior over that period), or am I supposed to interpret it as a reasserting moderation after it had been lax?


So no one thinks they're getting ambushed... let me State up front I'm going to have trouble buying the first one.
     
besson3c
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Sep 23, 2017, 03:04 PM
 
Man, being a mod on this board must be a terrible gig trying to keep all of these clowns happy. Second to only being a Trump advisor, maybe?
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 23, 2017, 03:10 PM
 
The irony is I'm not a particularly difficult user to appease.

I'm extremely sympathetic to the difficulty of moderation, and am fully aware of the user capacity to be a massive pain in the ass.
     
besson3c
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Sep 23, 2017, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The irony is I'm not a particularly difficult user to appease.

I'm extremely sympathetic to the difficulty of moderation, and am fully aware of the user capacity to be a massive pain in the ass.
Then why this obsession? They might have gotten it wrong, they might have gotten it right, but we aren't going to come up with perfect solutions and perfect rules that will make everybody happy, and the execution of the rules (perfect or not) will always be subject to human error and human judgement. Hashing out what happened is not going to prevent the next round of human error/judgement.

It is going to be ugly/flawed/imperfect/unclear from time-to-time. I don't think we need to supreme court the shit out of this. Why don't we just move on?
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 24, 2017, 05:07 AM
 
I can't really say I agree I'm behaving like an obsessive clown, but I guess I'll take the accusation under advisement.
     
besson3c
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Sep 24, 2017, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I can't really say I agree I'm behaving like an obsessive clown, but I guess I'll take the accusation under advisement.

You aren't a clown, I was joking around when I said that, but if you were to be a clown you'd be one of those nice ones.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 24, 2017, 07:26 PM
 
I think you could both be Juggalos.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
P
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Sep 25, 2017, 05:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I asked, and in about a month CTP has gotten enough infractions to be near his second ban.

For the previous several months, he received none.

How am I supposed to interpret this? Does the staff think this is consistent moderation (i.e. there was no infraction-worthy behavior over that period), or am I supposed to interpret it as a reasserting moderation after it had been lax?


So no one thinks they're getting ambushed... let me State up front I'm going to have trouble buying the first one.
It is very hard to debate this sort of thing when Cap'n gets upset when I share any information he deems to be private, but...

There were two quiet months over the summer, but in my view this has been building all year at least, with warnings and infractions. Tempers were flaring in the run-up to the election, and maybe we should have been stricter then, but usually it calms down after election day. It did, for most members, but in some cases the toxic mood lingered.

While it is correct that Cap'n is currently one infraction away from a temp ban, note that a personal attack infraction is 10 points.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Sep 25, 2017, 06:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So no one thinks they're getting ambushed... let me State up front I'm going to have trouble buying the first one.
Moderating in general and the PL in particular requires you to not just blindly stick to some super elaborate set of rules, this isn't a court, but instead be more like a soccer referee. Our goal is to make everyone stick to the rules, but there is some leeway (e. g. you don't have to call a foul if the team whose player was fouled has the advantage). In my tenure here, we have had very few problems even during our heyday in the technical forums — compared to the Lounges, the PL in particular. My philosophy has always been to keep the discord of the PL from spilling over into them, and you guys have been very good here. (I just remember one or two instances where I had to pm somebody to tone it down and keep the PL vitriol out — and they obliged without complaint.) Giving people slack around a very divisive election I in an extremely divisive political climate is, I think, prudent if we want this place to be a small subset of the real world in cyber space.

Of course, you can almost always make an argument that in a single instance we have either been too lenient or too harsh. Be too lenient and slowly over time it gets worse and worse because nothing is punished. Be too harsh and you stifle legitimate discourse. Mix in the fact that we also make mistakes. In the end you essentially have two options when you notice a problem:

(1) Do you want to “stay consistent” and continue to let the situation in the PL deteriorate further?

(2) Or do you adapt and “inconsistently” start punishing misbehavior?

To me option (1) makes no sense as that would mean, since that would mean we can neither react to facts dictated by external circumstances (such as a contested election) or fix faults of our own. What was Steve Job's adage again: in order to be right all the time, you need to be willing to change your mind.

CPT has started a thread in the PL which has kicked off a civil discussion and Cap'n seems to have taken the infractions and warnings to heart. That makes me happy, because it seems things worked out in the end, his post helps engender intellectually stimulating discussions in the forums and allows me to get back to more important things IRL such as my pregnant wife and work-related deadlines.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Sep 25, 2017 at 07:54 AM. )
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Sep 25, 2017, 09:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
CPT has started a thread in the PL which has kicked off a civil discussion and Cap'n seems to have taken the infractions and warnings to heart.
Incorrect. I learned to stop worrying and love the hammer.

I've been more relaxed because some members have stopped spitting venom.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Sep 26, 2017, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Moderating in general and the PL in particular requires you to not just blindly stick to some super elaborate set of rules, this isn't a court, but instead be more like a soccer referee. Our goal is to make everyone stick to the rules, but there is some leeway (e. g. you don't have to call a foul if the team whose player was fouled has the advantage). In my tenure here, we have had very few problems even during our heyday in the technical forums — compared to the Lounges, the PL in particular. My philosophy has always been to keep the discord of the PL from spilling over into them, and you guys have been very good here. (I just remember one or two instances where I had to pm somebody to tone it down and keep the PL vitriol out — and they obliged without complaint.) Giving people slack around a very divisive election I in an extremely divisive political climate is, I think, prudent if we want this place to be a small subset of the real world in cyber space.

Of course, you can almost always make an argument that in a single instance we have either been too lenient or too harsh. Be too lenient and slowly over time it gets worse and worse because nothing is punished. Be too harsh and you stifle legitimate discourse. Mix in the fact that we also make mistakes. In the end you essentially have two options when you notice a problem:

(1) Do you want to “stay consistent” and continue to let the situation in the PL deteriorate further?

(2) Or do you adapt and “inconsistently” start punishing misbehavior?

To me option (1) makes no sense as that would mean, since that would mean we can neither react to facts dictated by external circumstances (such as a contested election) or fix faults of our own. What was Steve Job's adage again: in order to be right all the time, you need to be willing to change your mind.

CPT has started a thread in the PL which has kicked off a civil discussion and Cap'n seems to have taken the infractions and warnings to heart. That makes me happy, because it seems things worked out in the end, his post helps engender intellectually stimulating discussions in the forums and allows me to get back to more important things IRL such as my pregnant wife and work-related deadlines.
No one, AFAICT, is objecting to the idea of... we'll call it "adaptive moderation ".

What's being requested is if it's going to adapt towards the stricter, the first punch get telegraphed. Afterwards, the moderators can haul-out as they see fit. I don't think this is an unreasonable or unfairly restrictive request.


P.S. Congrats on the bun in the oven.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Sep 26, 2017, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
With the wild infractor on the loose, I'm just posting as if each is likely my last (because no matter what's in it they'll find something to take issue with). It's rather exhilarating.
Really? You seem more chill, more prone to reasonable conversation, and have attacked other members much less.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
How am I supposed to interpret this? Does the staff think this is consistent moderation (i.e. there was no infraction-worthy behavior over that period), or am I supposed to interpret it as a reasserting moderation after it had been lax?
Seems to me the moderation slacked off for a while, then kind of realized all at once how toxic the place has gotten, so enforcement has ramped back up.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Incorrect. I learned to stop worrying and love the hammer.
It's like the high schooler sent to detention trying to be cool and yelling about how he doesn't care about being in detention. Of course you don't care.

I've been more relaxed because some members have stopped spitting venom.
From a position of personal responsibility, one could argue that it shouldn't matter what other people do, I and I alone am responsible for my own actions. It doesn't matter if my opponents go low, if the moderation is unfair, or if the whole world is against me, my principles are my principles and I will not stoop below them nor ignore them.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Sep 27, 2017, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Really? You seem more chill, more prone to reasonable conversation, and have attacked other members much less.
Because other members have chilled out dramatically. (Until today, that is, when sek lost his temper in the sportsball thread.)

From a position of personal responsibility, one could argue that it shouldn't matter what other people do, I and I alone am responsible for my own actions. It doesn't matter if my opponents go low, if the moderation is unfair, or if the whole world is against me, my principles are my principles and I will not stoop below them nor ignore them.
Sounds good, you should try that. From what I've seen, once you get vexed with someone you home in on them in numerous threads, trying to unbalance and destabilize them. Is that one of your "principles"?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Sep 27, 2017, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
edit: btw, anyone can check their infractions on their profile page (scroll down). This section is not visible to other members. It shows the active total, with any active ones at the top + their expiration dates. Expired old ones are listed next. The expiration dates can vary because vB sets a longer lifespan on new points if they're added while there are existing active points.
You're right that I'm not just anyone, but I have not had a profile page for years.

EDIT: I just looked. When did you fix it?!?
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Sep 27, 2017, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Because other members have chilled out dramatically. (Until today, that is, when sek lost his temper in the sportsball thread
You have an odd definition of one losing their temper, I said you were being purposely obtuse.

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Sep 27, 2017, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You're right that I'm not just anyone, but I have not had a profile page for years.

EDIT: I just looked. When did you fix it?!?
vB SEO is what gave us the plain-language URLs. But it's become abandonware, with unfixed bugs. I turned it off several months ago for security reasons.

Without the URL rewrites conflicting with the dash in your name, your profile became reachable again.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Sep 27, 2017, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
You have an odd definition of one losing their temper, I said you were being purposely obtuse.
Now don't you go running your mouth off like that to a long-standing member!

Sheesh, the gall...
     
 
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