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Las Vegas shooting (Page 2)
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Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Even taking up large cases one trip at a time should have raised red flags. "Hello, police? This guy at our hotel has taken 10 crates, nearly the size of coffins, up to his room. Could you come check this out?"
Charles Whitman dragged a foootlocker up the stairs of the observation tower and did not attract attention.
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Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:01 PM
 
The gunman’s father was on the FBI’s most wanted list. He robbed a bank here in AZ (1968) , then escaped. He was captured three years later in Vegas of all places.
http://nypost.com/2017/10/02/vegas-g...t-wanted-list/
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Why are you bringing religion into this?
Because ISIS immediately claimed responsibility, perhaps?
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:52 PM
 
It's quite unsatisfying the gunman was found dead. I'll reserve judgement for the investigative report.

In Guardian coverage, I read that family members/friends had no idea of a motive. That got me to wondering. If you're going to do a mass shooting, why not start with some random guy. Tie him up, wipe all your weapons down. Do your shooting, kill the smuck, and leave him in a room with 10 heavy-duty guns for the cops to find.

I'd like to know if the suspect found actually did it. Like if his time-of-death (and cause-of-death) match the timeline and circumstances.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Even taking up large cases one trip at a time should have raised red flags. "Hello, police? This guy at our hotel has taken 10 crates, nearly the size of coffins, up to his room. Could you come check this out?"
My guess is that in their cases, these illegal automatic rifles look pretty much the same as the legal, semi/manual/whatever rifles do. In which case its the same principle that saw gangsters carrying Tommy guns in violin cases. You assume its a violin because who would carry a machine gun without trying to hide it?
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Chongo
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Because ISIS immediately claimed responsibility, perhaps?
Has ISIS claimed responsibility where later there was no connection shown?
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Oct 2, 2017, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm also surprised this doesn't happen every day in America, given how much groups like ISIS hate us and how much time they have to sit and prepare. One thing that I suspect keeps this from being a daily occurrence is that it's harder than you'd think to find reasonably intelligent people who are willing to kill themselves.

Have you seen Four Lions? I have a feeling that in many real world cases it might as well be a documentary.




Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I have to agree, we must do something about what motivates these people, we can't afford to ignore it anymore. We need to become proactive against religious extremism in a way we never have before.

In these instances I think the religion in question is typically gun worship. Quelling that some would definitely serve you well.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 2, 2017, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
It's quite unsatisfying the gunman was found dead. I'll reserve judgement for the investigative report.

In Guardian coverage, I read that family members/friends had no idea of a motive. That got me to wondering. If you're going to do a mass shooting, why not start with some random guy. Tie him up, wipe all your weapons down. Do your shooting, kill the smuck, and leave him in a room with 10 heavy-duty guns for the cops to find.

I'd like to know if the suspect found actually did it. Like if his time-of-death (and cause-of-death) match the timeline and circumstances.
Rumor is there was Antifa and ISIS paraphernalia in his room, waiting for a conformation.
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Oct 2, 2017, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
My guess is that in their cases, these illegal automatic rifles look pretty much the same as the legal, semi/manual/whatever rifles do. In which case its the same principle that saw gangsters carrying Tommy guns in violin cases. You assume its a violin because who would carry a machine gun without trying to hide it?
You aren't allowed to just store firearms like that in a hotel room.
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Oct 2, 2017, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Quelling that some would definitely serve you well.
Not as much as quelling yours for Left-wing tripe and thread bait.
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Oct 2, 2017, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Rumor is there was Antifa and ISIS paraphernalia in his room, waiting for a conformation.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It appears the driver of the car that killed the anti-protester at the demonstration was also a member of the anti-protest. IOW, a left-wing protester (presumably a part of Antifa) killed another left-wing protester.
Same reliable source?
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Rumor is there was Antifa and ISIS paraphernalia in his room, waiting for a conformation.
Actually entirely the opposite. You have heard a rumour and you are completely NOT waiting for confirmation. You are posting on here. I can practically hear the frothing as you anticipate the ISIS connection.
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sek929
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Oct 2, 2017, 06:57 PM
 
He was still an American citizen with a shitload of guns that decided to indiscriminately murder people. What group he considered himself a part of is entirely inconsequential. If he had a MAGA hat does that mean Trump supporters are all murderers? If he had a Bernie pin does that mean Democratic Socialists are actually violent anarchists?

Everyone needs to take a big step back, and then two more f**king steps.

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sek929
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Oct 2, 2017, 07:24 PM
 
Stocks of gun companies taking a sharp rise today. Nothing sells weapons and ammo like horror.

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andi*pandi
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Oct 2, 2017, 07:31 PM
 
Somehow, a retired accountant who moved to Vegas to play video poker does not seem like the usual ISIS recruit. Unless maybe he had gambling debts and was blackmailed into it, or framed? Stuff of movies if so.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Hotels don't screen luggage or bag contents.
They will now! Also (possibly) bullet-proof windows.
     
sek929
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Oct 2, 2017, 07:38 PM
 
Great, now we'll have to take off our shoes and belts plus get a backscatter x-ray to check into our hotel rooms.

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reader50
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Oct 2, 2017, 08:30 PM
 
My theory was a miss - it certainly appears the suspect is indeed the right guy. No suicide notes mentioned though, or anything else that would fill in the gaps.
Originally Posted by The Guardian
Police also say authorities have found 18 firearms, explosives and several thousands of rounds of ammunition at the suspect’s home in Mesquite, Nevada.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 08:44 PM
 
Housekeeper who cleaned his room the day before said she didn’t find anything suspicious. This may mean that he brought in his guns after the cleaning, or the housekeeper didn’t check under the beds or in the wardrobe (do they even check there ever?) because it will be difficult to hide a single rifle in a hotel room, much less ten different weapons.
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Oct 2, 2017, 09:34 PM
 
I'm about halfaway through the paper. Not sure I buy it yet, but food to thought.

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Oct 2, 2017, 10:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Actually entirely the opposite. You have heard a rumour and you are completely NOT waiting for confirmation. You are posting on here. I can practically hear the frothing as you anticipate the ISIS connection.
You mean, since ISIS already claimed responsibility for it? Yeah, not much reason for anyone to suspect them, is there? I'm going to post rumors and speculation on here from people to discuss if they choose, and I'll mark them as such. If you don't like it, that's just too bad. M'kay?
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subego
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Housekeeper who cleaned his room the day before said she didn’t find anything suspicious. This may mean that he brought in his guns after the cleaning, or the housekeeper didn’t check under the beds or in the wardrobe (do they even check there ever?) because it will be difficult to hide a single rifle in a hotel room, much less ten different weapons.
Under the bed sounds like the best idea past not letting housekeeping in.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
He was still an American citizen with a shitload of guns that decided to indiscriminately murder people. What group he considered himself a part of is entirely inconsequential. If he had a MAGA hat does that mean Trump supporters are all murderers? If he had a Bernie pin does that mean Democratic Socialists are actually violent anarchists?

Everyone needs to take a big step back, and then two more f**king steps.
It wouldn't be the first time an American has been radicalized and used by a terrorist group, and Antifa aren't shy about turning up the heat lately (they specifically said they were going to launch a violent revolution in the US in the coming months), and I don't think they were talking about flambeing more trash cans.

The weapons the shithead used were already very illegal and the entire intelligence community is hunting down whoever supplied said shithead with them. It's time we started enforcing the laws we have, simply writing new ones without enforcement does nothing.
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
He was still an American citizen with a shitload of guns that decided to indiscriminately murder people. What group he considered himself a part of is entirely inconsequential. If he had a MAGA hat does that mean Trump supporters are all murderers? If he had a Bernie pin does that mean Democratic Socialists are actually violent anarchists?

Everyone needs to take a big step back, and then two more f**king steps.
If it was politically motivated, I guarantee very few steps will be taken back.
     
sek929
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:47 PM
 
You've previously said that a rational reason, like fame or even politics, is incongruent with the mindset of this type of mass murder.

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Oct 2, 2017, 10:51 PM
 
I'm sure I will rightfully take some flak for getting too political too soon, but a part of me thinks that we need to start getting political ASAP so that this doesn't become normalized and/or swept under the carpet and/or forgotten about.

I think Americans are going to have to make some concessions. I think we might need to overcompensate, because we've spent years not compensating at all.

I don't think anybody really knows exactly what the impact of gun control would be, what an aggressive crackdown of illegal weapons would be, or what an aggressive attempt to provide mental health services would provide in terms on impact. Instead of just being paralyzed with debate and stubbornness, we need to start trying all of these things and more NOW. We can't keep kicking the can down the street, this is not going to get better.

The country is hurting really badly right now, and fixing it is going to involve things that some people don't like. We need to start trying stuff, and we need to be open to trying all sorts of things. The paralysis needs to stop.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It wouldn't be the first time an American has been radicalized and used by a terrorist group, and Antifa aren't shy about turning up the heat lately (they specifically said they were going to launch a violent revolution in the US in the coming months), and I don't think they were talking about flambeing more trash cans.
Citation needed or put your Antifa-boner away until you find one.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The weapons the shithead used were already very illegal and the entire intelligence community is hunting down whoever supplied said shithead with them. It's time we started enforcing the laws we have, simply writing new ones without enforcement does nothing.
Is it unreasonable to suggest that the manufacturers could be targeted in cases like this? If these weapons are difficult to obtain legally, there can't be that many of them in private hands surely? And presumably it follows that not all ordinary gun shops are allowed to trade in them? Would it be so hard to lock down the supply chain if you started threatening sanctions on the makers? Keep the supply chain secure or you don't get to sell anything at all for X months? Something like that.
( Last edited by Waragainstsleep; Oct 3, 2017 at 06:59 AM. )
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm sure I will rightfully take some flak for getting too political too soon, but a part of me thinks that we need to start getting political ASAP so that this doesn't become normalized and/or swept under the carpet and/or forgotten about.

I think Americans are going to have to make some concessions. I think we might need to overcompensate, because we've spent years not compensating at all.

I don't think anybody really knows exactly what the impact of gun control would be, what an aggressive crackdown of illegal weapons would be, or what an aggressive attempt to provide mental health services would provide in terms on impact. Instead of just being paralyzed with debate and stubbornness, we need to start trying all of these things and more NOW. We can't keep kicking the can down the street, this is not going to get better.

The country is hurting really badly right now, and fixing it is going to involve things that some people don't like. We need to start trying stuff, and we need to be open to trying all sorts of things. The paralysis needs to stop.
You're not going to see any meaningful or worthwhile action without either a big Democratic majority in government or a long, slow insidious campaign to change fundamental attitudes without anyone noticing it.
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sek929
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Oct 2, 2017, 10:57 PM
 
We've had a big Democratic majority before and yet the problems have only gotten worse. Handing the ball off to the other team doesn't magically fix a damn thing.

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Oct 2, 2017, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
We've had a big Democratic majority before and yet the problems have only gotten worse. Handing the ball off to the other team doesn't magically fix a damn thing.
Agreed. While I generally find the Republican party to be significant more destructive, this is a cultural issue more than a matter of power concentration.
     
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Oct 2, 2017, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Citation needed or put your Antifa-boner away until you find you.
Why does it bother you that someone suspects a specific group? I'm not saying they did it, it's speculation.

Is it unreasonable to suggest that the manufacturers could be targeted in cases like this? If these weapons are difficult to obtain legally, there can't be that many of them in private hands surely?
If it's found out that the manufacturers were complicit in letting these guns fall into the wrong hands, then absolutely. If somehow it turns out that these were weapons are sourced back to the "Fast and Furious" smuggling, you'd be all for Holder and Obama being being held responsible, I assume? Another possibility is former San Francisco state senator Leland Yee, he was responsible for the sale of untold 1000s of fully-auto weapons to gangs in California. These were the two worst leaks of their kind in history.

And presumably it follows that not all ordinary gun shops are allowed to trade in them?
Correct. Buying them requires a federal firearms license.

Would it be so hard to lock down the supply chain if you started threatening sanctions on the makers? Keep the supply chain secure or you don't get to sell anything at all for X months? Something like that.
FFL holders go through more screening than practically anyone in the federal gov't. It's brutal. Manufacturers also go FAR out of their way to ensure their guns get to their licensed sellers, and only their sellers, due to the incredibly tough penalties for failing to do so. So when firearms like these get out into the wild it's usually one of two scenarios; they're stolen from a gov't installation OR they were illegally sold by a gov't entity.
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Oct 3, 2017, 12:01 AM
 
Today, one man shot nearly 600 people in minutes w/greater casualty count than any one day in #Iraq or #Afghanistan #LasVegasShooting
Pretty absurd in that context.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 12:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
You've previously said that a rational reason, like fame or even politics, is incongruent with the mindset of this type of mass murder.
Rational politics are incongruent with the mindset of this type of mass murder. Not the case with the paranoid delusional variety.

With regards to fame, like I said up-front, data on the incidence rate is superior to whatever hypothesis I may come up with. Lam provided data, and I'm going over it.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm sure I will rightfully take some flak for getting too political too soon, but a part of me thinks that we need to start getting political ASAP so that this doesn't become normalized and/or swept under the carpet and/or forgotten about.

I think Americans are going to have to make some concessions. I think we might need to overcompensate, because we've spent years not compensating at all.

I don't think anybody really knows exactly what the impact of gun control would be, what an aggressive crackdown of illegal weapons would be, or what an aggressive attempt to provide mental health services would provide in terms on impact. Instead of just being paralyzed with debate and stubbornness, we need to start trying all of these things and more NOW. We can't keep kicking the can down the street, this is not going to get better.

The country is hurting really badly right now, and fixing it is going to involve things that some people don't like. We need to start trying stuff, and we need to be open to trying all sorts of things. The paralysis needs to stop.
I tend to go against the grain here in that I don't question whether gun control can be effective. Of course it can.

To me the question, in cliche terms, is whether the freedom is worth the price. This price currently stands at about 35,000 deaths and 75,000 injuries per year.

I fully admit it's one of the colder policy conclusions I'm forced to come to, but I argue it is.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 04:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You mean, since ISIS already claimed responsibility for it? Yeah, not much reason for anyone to suspect them, is there?
and if the tooth fairy claimed she did it. Grow up. You have a history of jumping to conclusions that suit you with a speed and glee that is unseemly.

A tragedy has unfolded, committed by un unhinged madman from a gun obsessed culture, swimming in guns.

If it turns out that he had any connection to Islamic terror, that's the time to start discussing. Other than that it's just your obsession.
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Oct 3, 2017, 05:17 AM
 
Why are most news websites showing the killer with his eyes closed? Surely they have a better picture than this.

{{{ mindwaves }}}
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 05:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
According to BBC, the guy had 10 suitcases in his room. That would explain why the cleaning person didn't find anything unusual (besides the large number of suitcases for a single person).
Vegas is home to an absurd amount of conventions and trade shows. I would imagine 10 suitcases is not at all unusual- what with people bringing things to sell, display, etc.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 05:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Because ISIS immediately claimed responsibility, perhaps?
They ALWAYS claim responsibility, first thing.

Their objective is to get unreflected numbnuts riled up. That’s the whole reason they kill people. If they can seize a chance to do so without going through the bother of actually killing people, of course they will.

They claimed responsibility for the germanwings crash that turned out to be a suicidal co-pilot, as well.

Same as al Qaeda would claim every bad thing that happened. We’ve had this discussion before, a decade ago.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 05:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
We've had a big Democratic majority before and yet the problems have only gotten worse. Handing the ball off to the other team doesn't magically fix a damn thing.
They didn’t have legislative majority, though, did they?
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 06:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Rumor is there was Antifa and ISIS paraphernalia in his room, waiting for a conformation.
That’s amusing. “Antifa and ISIS paraphernalia”. What next? “Greenpeace and whaling paraphernalia”? “Trump campaign and scientific paraphernalia”?

You need to stop reading alt-right shit, stat.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 06:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
and if the tooth fairy claimed she did it.
I think I see your problem. See ISIS is real, while the tooth fairy isn't. Sorry to be the one who has to tell you, I'm sure it's quite a bummer.

You have a history of jumping to conclusions that suit you with a speed and glee that is unseemly.

A tragedy has unfolded, committed by un unhinged madman from a gun obsessed culture, swimming in guns.
One, you're full of crap. If I had to characterize how I felt since this went down, I'd say I've been pissed as hell and upset. Like many, I wept, not something very common for me, when I saw video of the people being gunned-down while trying to run away, of the guy from my home state who died while protectively covering his newly-wed wife, shielding her from the bullets with his own body.

Two, there's a world of difference between speculating who else was involved (if any), among the general cast of baddies who want to hurt US citizens, and trying to capitalize on grief to pass new gun control laws, while the victims are still bleeding. So to sum up, don't try to pin shit on me when you "progressives" are doing far worse, buddy.

If it turns out that he had any connection to Islamic terror, that's the time to start discussing. Other than that it's just your obsession.
So according to you, we can't just share info we hear about? You realize that I wouldn't have mentioned ISIS (see first point above) if they hadn't claimed responsibility. While they do occasionally claim things they aren't involved in, they almost always claim things they are involved with, as well. So while it isn't a clear indicator, it isn't something to be taken lightly.
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Oct 3, 2017, 06:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
They ALWAYS claim responsibility, first thing.
Wrong. While it may seem that way, that's a myth.

Their objective is to get unreflected numbnuts riled up. That’s the whole reason they kill people. If they can seize a chance to do so without going through the bother of actually killing people, of course they will.
Yet, that directly flies in the face of actual research on the matter.

Originally Posted by analogika View Post
That’s amusing
If talking about terrorism gives you the jollies, you need help.
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Why does it bother you that someone suspects a specific group? I'm not saying they did it, it's speculation.
OK, but without something to lead in a particular direction you might just as well speculate that it was the 1989 Denver Broncos. You're basically pulling a Cartman in order to throw shade at groups we already know you don't like.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
If it's found out that the manufacturers were complicit in letting these guns fall into the wrong hands, then absolutely. If somehow it turns out that these were weapons are sourced back to the "Fast and Furious" smuggling, you'd be all for Holder and Obama being being held responsible, I assume? Another possibility is former San Francisco state senator Leland Yee, he was responsible for the sale of untold 1000s of fully-auto weapons to gangs in California. These were the two worst leaks of their kind in history.
I don't know enough about F&F to say who should be prosecuted for it but sure if the scheme saw someone leaking weapons to the wrong people then why not? I suspect if they were sold abroad the law is more complicated than just being able to pin it on Obama or Holder though.
If a manufacturer is complicit they will likely turn over evidence to help prosecute the guilty employees (throw them under the bus), then payout some lawsuits. Maybe some big, big fines for failing to catch such employees the second they try anything, and ridiculous fines and sanctions if those guns are used in a crime?


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Correct. Buying them requires a federal firearms license.
Whats the rationale for private citizens holding these licenses?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
FFL holders go through more screening than practically anyone in the federal gov't. It's brutal. Manufacturers also go FAR out of their way to ensure their guns get to their licensed sellers, and only their sellers, due to the incredibly tough penalties for failing to do so. So when firearms like these get out into the wild it's usually one of two scenarios; they're stolen from a gov't installation OR they were illegally sold by a gov't entity.
Thats worrying.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
We've had a big Democratic majority before and yet the problems have only gotten worse. Handing the ball off to the other team doesn't magically fix a damn thing.
I'm not saying a Dem majority would guarantee it. There are pro-gun Dems and Dem politicians beholden to the NRA too.
In fact measures taken by the Republicans would likely stick better, but they will never ever do it unless public opinion really turns on the NRA and gun makers. And there is no suggestion that the PR machines will let this happen any time soon. Mass shootings have become normalised, even when its children most people have forgotten all about it within a day or two. Not to mention the deniers who would have been unthinkable only a few years ago.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
OK, but without something to lead in a particular direction you might just as well speculate that it was the 1989 Denver Broncos. You're basically pulling a Cartman in order to throw shade at groups we already know you don't like.
That makes no sense whatsoever, FYI. Now, if Pat Bowlen had called after the attack to claim responsibility for it, you'd have a point, but I'm not aware of that occurring.

I don't know enough about F&F to say who should be prosecuted for it but sure if the scheme saw someone leaking weapons to the wrong people then why not? I suspect if they were sold abroad the law is more complicated than just being able to pin it on Obama or Holder though.
"Abroad" being a few hundred kilometers away, just across the Mexican border, to place that into context. It was a LOT of illegally sourced automatic weapons, and the media tried extra hard to sweep it under the rug, and they did the same with Yee. I guess it's extra embarrassing, and hypocritical, for Democrats to espouse gun control while illegally selling the most dangerous guns in the world to cartels.

If a manufacturer is complicit they will likely turn over evidence to help prosecute the guilty employees (throw them under the bus), then payout some lawsuits. Maybe some big, big fines for failing to catch such employees the second they try anything, and ridiculous fines and sanctions if those guns are used in a crime?
There's not even a remote indication that US manufacturers are involved in this. They're already under the constant, tight scrutiny of the BATF. So while anything is possible, it's very unlikely.

Whats the rationale for private citizens holding these licenses?
They sell to organizations who can legally buy them, like police depts.

Thats worrying.
Yeah, very much so.
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Oct 3, 2017, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I tend to go against the grain here in that I don't question whether gun control can be effective. Of course it can.

To me the question, in cliche terms, is whether the freedom is worth the price. This price currently stands at about 35,000 deaths and 75,000 injuries per year.

I fully admit it's one of the colder policy conclusions I'm forced to come to, but I argue it is.

Why is it worth this price?
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 10:06 AM
 
Creepy if true. LVPD needs to find this woman escorted form the concert.
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Oct 3, 2017, 10:12 AM
 
Wow. Got off a 16-hour flight yesterday evening to this - crazy.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I understood they were a dedicated team. I hope in the furture there will be sniper rifle armed officers for these type of events where high buildings are near by.
If you feel this, then they've won - America is no longer free when its citizens want a SWAT team on hand for large public urban assemblies. Think about that...

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
He was still an American citizen with a shitload of guns that decided to indiscriminately murder people. What group he considered himself a part of is entirely inconsequential. If he had a MAGA hat does that mean Trump supporters are all murderers? If he had a Bernie pin does that mean Democratic Socialists are actually violent anarchists?

Everyone needs to take a big step back, and then two more f**king steps.
Amen. You can feel the reeking online glee to point the finger at the other side - just as soon as we can figure it out...sad.
     
Chongo
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Oct 3, 2017, 10:43 AM
 
Come to think about it, the French have assault weapon and sniper rifle armed police at events and it didn’t prevent someone in a truck driving through a crowd and killing 86 people. Had this idiot took a truck and drove through the concert he could have killed far more because they had nowhere to run.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
besson3c
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Oct 3, 2017, 11:33 AM
 
And here it begins, focusing on pointing fingers, dismissing possible solutions because of scenario x and scenario y, thinking about edge cases, etc. At the end of the day the most simple way to look at this is that angry/disturbed human beings with out-of-control emotions and deadly weapons don't make a good combo here in America, or anywhere else in the world.

Stop this paralysis by analysis, people. It's usually terrible analysis anyway because it's overflowing with emotion and bias rather than data. Let's instead try stuff, because doing nothing hasn't worked.

You can protect yourself with less deadly weapons. You can tolerate deeper background checks, measures to reduce illegal gun trafficking. A little empathy never hurts, and taking mental health issues a little more seriously has a ton of benefits. We might have to tolerate greater security measures across the board - preferably security that doesn't set out to discriminate because otherwise we are stuck in this paralysis loop again. Maybe gun sales should be regulated differently, removing loopholes. Gun shows.

****ing SOMETHING.
     
 
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