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Las Vegas shooting (Page 3)
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Laminar
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Oct 3, 2017, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
So according to you, we can't just share info we hear about?
No, we shouldn't share unsubstantiated rumors that atrocities have been committed by groups that we happen to be fervently against, whether it's antifa or Muslims or whoever. Your track record here isn't great, and helping to spread misinformation is a horrible thing to do.

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/201...ue-information

The trouble is that initial beliefs are sometimes hard to dislodge. Dozens of studies in experimental psychology have identified a phenomenon known as the continued influence effect: Even after misinformation is retracted, many people continue to treat it as true. In other words, it has a continued influence on their thinking.

When misinformation concerns something like the safety of vaccines or the perpetrators behind some atrocity, getting it wrong can be personally and societally consequential.
     
Paco500
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Oct 3, 2017, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You realize that I wouldn't have mentioned ISIS (see first point above) if they hadn't claimed responsibility.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Rumor is there was Antifa and ISIS paraphernalia in his room, waiting for a conformation.
So Antifa has also claimed responsibility? Can you link to the source?
     
besson3c
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Oct 3, 2017, 12:31 PM
 
I hear it was the 1989 Denver Broncos behind this.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 12:58 PM
 
Do people not recognize when they're being trolled anymore?
     
Chongo
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Oct 3, 2017, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I hear it was the 1989 Denver Broncos behind this.
I heard they are really owned by George Soros. (and he owns the NFL)
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
Laminar
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Oct 3, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
     
Chongo
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Oct 3, 2017, 01:18 PM
 
He’s a frontman for Soros.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 02:01 PM
 
I'm reading reports that the weapons were modified with - apparently legal - bump stocks that allowed them to fire at full auto. Has this been confirmed, or do we know that at least one of the weapons was an illegal fully automatic?
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Doc HM
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Oct 3, 2017, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I think I see your problem. See ISIS is real, while the tooth fairy isn't. Sorry to be the one who has to tell you, I'm sure it's quite a bummer.



One, you're full of crap. If I had to characterize how I felt since this went down, I'd say I've been pissed as hell and upset. Like many, I wept, not something very common for me, when I saw video of the people being gunned-down while trying to run away, of the guy from my home state who died while protectively covering his newly-wed wife, shielding her from the bullets with his own body.

Two, there's a world of difference between speculating who else was involved (if any), among the general cast of baddies who want to hurt US citizens, and trying to capitalize on grief to pass new gun control laws, while the victims are still bleeding. So to sum up, don't try to pin shit on me when you "progressives" are doing far worse, buddy.



So according to you, we can't just share info we hear about? You realize that I wouldn't have mentioned ISIS (see first point above) if they hadn't claimed responsibility. While they do occasionally claim things they aren't involved in, they almost always claim things they are involved with, as well. So while it isn't a clear indicator, it isn't something to be taken lightly.
No, you're full of crap. You know exactly what you are doing when you post idiotic unsubstantiated rumours, then you run and hide behind feigned ignorance and (in this case) outrage, along with a self serving dose of emotional blackmail regarding your feelings for the victims of this horrific event.

You can only have mentioned ISIS because the unsubstantiated rumours suited your purpose, when even 15 seconds critical thinking would have led you to question thise rumours. Adding the Antifa element was the icing on your fake rage cake, even though it was scarcely less unbelievable, infact having both your pet hates in one crazy scenario surely should have triggered at least a tiny alarm bell of critical thought.

Unless you actually are stupid enough not to be able to think these things through in which case I apologise and hope you learn some thinking skills at some point.

ps. I make no case for your crazy ass gun laws, they are entirely up to you to either live with or change.
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Oct 3, 2017, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why is it worth this price?
Because I believe it acts as a deterrence to tyranny.

I'll note our current political situation has me more convinced of the importance of it than ever.
     
Doc HM
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Oct 3, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because I believe it acts as a deterrence to tyranny.

I'll note our current political situation has me more convinced of the importance of it than ever.
Does an event on this scale make you re-asses your judgement on the benefit, or is it something you feel is worth any amount of pain? If there is a top out, whereabouts do you feel you would put it?
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subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Does an event on this scale make you re-asses your judgement on the benefit, or is it something you feel is worth any amount of pain? If there is a top out, whereabouts do you feel you would put it?
Probably not, because it appears to be an incredible outlier. The injury count is, and I'm not exaggerating, an order of magnitude higher than every other mass shooting ever. If this somehow becomes commonplace, I'd potentially reassess my view.

It's hard to say where I'd top out, though I'll note we could double our homicide rate and still not suck as bad as we did in 1980.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:11 PM
 
Commentary on the notion presented earlier, "it's not going to get better if we keep kicking the can down the road".

Homicides per 100,000.

     
besson3c
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because I believe it acts as a deterrence to tyranny.

I'll note our current political situation has me more convinced of the importance of it than ever.
Sorry, this is silly.

Our country has these crazy long ass elections which to decide leaders. It also has multiple elected checks and balances not only in the form of the obvious leaders, but also in corporate and other interests that can pull strings.

Our democracy has never been more challenged with the prospects of Russian interference, family appointments to important positions, and a very divided population. Yet, we aren't talking about violently removing Trump from office, we're talking about voting him out.

This whole last-resort-against-tyranny card is an EXTREMELY painful price to pay for something that is lottery ticket remote in possibility of occurring.

By any chance, do you have insurance against grizzly bear attacks too?
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:24 PM
 
I'm aware of the price. I even put the numbers in my initial post on the subject, so there would be no confusion.

If someone is of the opinion they don't want to pay it, I consider it to be a legitimate viewpoint I happen to disagree with.

The insurance policy isn't a fully apt analogy. Insurance doesn't deter what it insures against. I would argue this deterrence is one of the reasons our democracy remains a democracy under these challenges.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:25 PM
 
subego, I would posit that your chart is more indicative of gang/street violence and does not represent mass shootings like this one.

Are we safer than in 1994? Maybe in some instances. In others you are required to go thru metal detectors to see a concert and your kids get bomb threats every day.
     
Laminar
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Commentary on the notion presented earlier, "it's not going to get better if we keep kicking the can down the road".

Homicides per 100,000.
That's just due to the removal of lead in gasoline.

Mass shootings have risen since 2000.

Imma pull an everyone else and not cite those.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
and does not represent mass shootings like this one.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Mass shootings have risen since 2000.
My suggested metric for assessing the problem is total injuries and fatalities from firearms. Someone's going to have to throw down with why mass shootings is a better one before I switch.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That's just due to the removal of lead in gasoline.
Fair enough. Withdrawn.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
and your kids get bomb threats every day.
Holy goal-post moving, Batman.
     
Chongo
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Probably not, because it appears to be an incredible outlier. The injury count is, and I'm not exaggerating, an order of magnitude higher than every other mass shooting ever. If this somehow becomes commonplace, I'd potentially reassess my view.

It's hard to say where I'd top out, though I'll note we could double our homicide rate and still not suck as bad as we did in 1980.
Is there an assessment as to how many of those injuries are due to being hit by bullets, and those caused by people fleeing and getting trampled?
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because I believe it acts as a deterrence to tyranny.

I'll note our current political situation has me more convinced of the importance of it than ever.
Bill o Reilly has your back.


Is there any other issue in this country where there's overwhelming consensus towards an issue that is so routinely ignored by those in power like gun control? The inability to do anything should be studied so we can replicate it for good.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Bill o Reilly has your back.
Now two people think it.

This may catch on.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Is there an assessment as to how many of those injuries are due to being hit by bullets, and those caused by people fleeing and getting trampled?
Is there an assessment of how many people died in the Chicago Fire, and how many merely died running from it and getting trampled?

Doesn't matter, the cause is the same.
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is there any other issue in this country where there's overwhelming consensus towards an issue that is so routinely ignored by those in power like gun control? The inability to do anything should be studied so we can replicate it for good.
Which overwhelming consensus?
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Which overwhelming consensus?
In favor of improving gun regs. Last I remember a majority of NRA members approved.
     
Chongo
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Oct 3, 2017, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Is there an assessment as to how many of those injuries are due to being hit by bullets, and those caused by people fleeing and getting trampled?
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Is there an assessment of how many people died in the Chicago Fire, and how many merely died running from it and getting trampled?

Doesn't matter, the cause is the same.
Just finished watching the latest press conference. Clark county sheriff stated that some were trampled and some were injured “by their own device”. I came in halfway through, but the words “radicalized” came out of his mouth.
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Oct 3, 2017, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because I believe it {gun ownership} acts as a deterrence to tyranny.

I'll note our current political situation has me more convinced of the importance of it than ever.
I agree. The 2nd Amendment was passed within memory of the British occupation of major eastern cities, of a government that taxed us, but gave us no say.

The arguments against guns are asking us to put a price on our freedom to control our government as a last resort. Balanced against the losses to occasional nutjobs who will statistically not impact most of us during our lifetimes.

As to the current importance of the population having a last resort against tyranny, consider:

• Gerrymandering is being considered as to if it should be banned. Why is this even a question?
• In the last 20 years, we've twice gotten Presidents who lost the popular vote to the opposed candidate. Electoral College aside, we got leaders we chose against.
• Courtesy of Snowden, we know our government constantly spies on us. Reads our mail (at least their computers do) and has consistently lied to conceal it.
• Again courtesy of leakers, we found the FISA court (a secret court) has been issuing secret laws that affect us. Some transparency has come only after the leakers let the cats out of the bag.
• Record-breaking persecution of leakers has followed. Changes to government behavior ... tiny steps here and there.
• The President can (and has) ordered the death of US citizens abroad, without a conviction by a court. Also, Congress has not declared us at war with the countries where this happened.
• Our Constitutional rights are routinely suspended when we cross the border. Or are even within 100 miles of it. They can search without probable cause (4th amendment), detain your property (phones) until/unless you cough up the passwords (no due process), and generally confiscate your cash anywhere. (civil asset forfeiture)

While we're still more free than not, it constantly looks like "our" government is out to get us. Our money anyway. Good thing we can all own guns. In case the government turns on us.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
While we're still more free than not, it constantly looks like "our" government is out to get us. Our money anyway. Good thing we can all own guns. In case the government turns on us.
What qualifies as turn on us, if electoral rigging and trampling the first and fourth don't?
     
besson3c
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Oct 3, 2017, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
While we're still more free than not, it constantly looks like "our" government is out to get us. Our money anyway. Good thing we can all own guns. In case the government turns on us.

The government turns on you, and somehow the Republicans and Democrats band together so that they are just one monolithic government that can never be voted out?

Sounds reallllllyyyyyy unlikely. Why not build a wall around the cities to keep grizzly bears out?
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:22 PM
 
The rough and ready idea for what justifies armed insurrection is suspension of democracy.

The Democrats and Republicans would work together to reinstate it.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The rough and ready idea for what justifies armed insurrection is suspension of democracy.

The Democrats and Republicans would work together to reinstate it.
So we can lose all our rights, but as long as we can vote its all good?
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So we can lose all our rights, but as long as we can vote its all good?
So the will of the people isn't being expressed in any form or fashion, but because people vote it's still a democracy?

I don't think anyone uses this definition in normal discussion, and I strenuously object to the assumption it's the one I'm using.

I'm stupid enough as it is without people trying to make me out as more so.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So the will of the people isn't being expressed in any form or fashion, but because people vote it's still a democracy?

I don't think anyone uses this definition in normal discussion, and I strenuously object to the assumption it's the one I'm using.

I'm stupid enough as it is without people trying to make me out as more so.
What qualifies as 'suspension of democracy'?
     
subego
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Oct 3, 2017, 09:07 PM
 
I'll try this from a different angle.

Armed insurrection of the type under discussion is terrorism.

The point where we'd entertain the idea of becoming a terrorist I would imagine is roughly similar.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What have I done?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 3, 2017, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll try this from a different angle.

Armed insurrection of the type under discussion is terrorism.

The point where we'd entertain the idea of becoming a terrorist I would imagine is roughly similar.
You're explaining the problem by emotional severity. I'm asking what would cause that. Of course things would have to be pretty bad to take up arms against the government. But what are those pretty bad things? Suspending elections is too easy. What else?

Aside: Here's my observation -It's less likely that our democracy will be 'suspended' by an overt act, rather than just being slowly eroded to the point that no one will notice or be sure when it ceased to exist.
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"Abroad" being a few hundred kilometers away, just across the Mexican border, to place that into context. It was a LOT of illegally sourced automatic weapons, and the media tried extra hard to sweep it under the rug, and they did the same with Yee. I guess it's extra embarrassing, and hypocritical, for Democrats to espouse gun control while illegally selling the most dangerous guns in the world to cartels.
For the record I'm all for prosecuting anyone that irresponsible, regardless of political affiliation, I just don't know who would go about it or how exactly they would. Hard to imagine the president of Mexico issuing an arrest warrant for Obama and asking for him to be extradited. Though if he did I'm sure Trump would jump at the chance to grant it.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There's not even a remote indication that US manufacturers are involved in this. They're already under the constant, tight scrutiny of the BATF. So while anything is possible, it's very unlikely.
I wasn't really suggesting they were, just that shifting the responsibility to them in a meaningful way would cause some to stop such sales altogether and the rest to take the strongest possible steps against thefts, possibly implement some voluntary self-regulation to vet sellers to even higher standards and in order to cover all that, to put the prices way up, further discouraging private ownership.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
They sell to organizations who can legally buy them, like police depts.
Wait, so the makers sell to extra-specially licensed dealers, who sell to extra-specially licensed private citizens, just so they can sell to police departments and the like? Begs obvious questions like why the dealers don't sell to the departments direct, or the makers for that matter. Or why these private citizens aren't forced to become dealers in order to do this. It sounds like pure madness.

Are these special licenses the ones that cover grandfathered pre-1986 automatic weapons? Or is that something else again?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 3, 2017, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because I believe it acts as a deterrence to tyranny.
Have you considered a point in time or set of circumstances where it will cease to be an effective deterrent?

Civilian arms have hit a wall in real terms. Automatic weapons are (supposed to be) highly restricted, I assume the same is true of grenade launchers and rocket launchers these days?
You might get slightly increased rates of semi-auto fire, lighter weight composite materials, higher accuracy and such, but it seems likely there will be no further notable leaps in stopping power, armour penetration or explosive yield on the market to civilians.

Many believe that we have surpassed the point where guerrilla tactics would prove effective by the US citizenry against the US military. What with satellite surveillance, thermal and night vision on UAVs etc, hiding in the woods is much harder than it used to be. I'm sure there are plenty of caves in the US but compared to places like Afghanistan, I'd wager most of them are fairly well known and when any sizeable mob disappears into one the military are going to have a pretty good head start when it comes to narrowing down where they went.

Throw in some good AI and a big fleet of drones can be left to deal with the militia by themselves. They'll likely never even see them to shoot back.

I believe that in any scenario where the US government starts behaving tyrannically to the point where a large number of citizens start and armed rebellion, at least some of your military leaders are likely to side with them. This means they'll likely have access to much better weapons and equipment anyway and there will be some kind of terrible civil war. In the previously mentioned guerrilla action, I don't see the successful emulation of the Viet Cong that many seem to.

Where do you draw this line?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 07:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No
Too bad. If you think someone using qualifiers while talking about possible situations is "misinformation", then that's on you for not understanding what those qualifiers mean.
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Oct 4, 2017 at 08:28 AM. )
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Oct 4, 2017, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
No, you're full of crap. You know exactly what you are doing when you post idiotic unsubstantiated rumours, then you run and hide behind feigned ignorance and (in this case) outrage, along with a self serving dose of emotional blackmail regarding your feelings for the victims of this horrific event.

You can only have mentioned ISIS because the unsubstantiated rumours suited your purpose, when even 15 seconds critical thinking would have led you to question thise rumours. Adding the Antifa element was the icing on your fake rage cake, even though it was scarcely less unbelievable, infact having both your pet hates in one crazy scenario surely should have triggered at least a tiny alarm bell of critical thought.
Talk about triggering. Since none of those things were my actual feelings, what does that say about you? Let's unpack that, eh? Let's figure out why you feel justified being such a frothing psycho on a message forum, while others are trying to simply piece together what could have happened. It's time you looked in a mirror instead of throwing stones at anyone else. Yikes.

Unless you actually are stupid enough not to be able to think these things through in which case I apologise and hope you learn some thinking skills at some point.
This is an actual personal attack. Maybe you should diagnose yourself, Doc?

ps. I make no case for your crazy ass gun laws, they are entirely up to you to either live with or change.
Only sane thing you've said.
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Oct 4, 2017, 08:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
For the record I'm all for prosecuting anyone that irresponsible, regardless of political affiliation, I just don't know who would go about it or how exactly they would. Hard to imagine the president of Mexico issuing an arrest warrant for Obama and asking for him to be extradited. Though if he did I'm sure Trump would jump at the chance to grant it.
Our USAG would issue the warrant, if it turns out the weapons came from those sold. We can tell by their serial numbers, unless they've been removed (which is very hard now, because some are so tiny and in random places).

I wasn't really suggesting they were, just that shifting the responsibility to them in a meaningful way would cause some to stop such sales altogether and the rest to take the strongest possible steps against thefts, possibly implement some voluntary self-regulation to vet sellers to even higher standards and in order to cover all that, to put the prices way up, further discouraging private ownership.
As I said before, for all practical purposes, there is no private ownership of the weapons used in this attack.

Wait, so the makers sell to extra-specially licensed dealers, who sell to extra-specially licensed private citizens, just so they can sell to police departments and the like? Begs obvious questions like why the dealers don't sell to the departments direct, or the makers for that matter. Or why these private citizens aren't forced to become dealers in order to do this. It sounds like pure madness.
No, I think you misunderstood. The manufacturers sell to the dealers with FFLs, and those dealers sell to various gov't entities, American security companies (Brinks, Blackwater, the Merchant Marines), and foreign buyers who can legally buy them (other militaries, etc).

Are these special licenses the ones that cover grandfathered pre-1986 automatic weapons? Or is that something else again?
There are a tiny number of fully auto weapons made before 1986 that are traded amongst private citizens, but they're very closely tracked (owning one is like placing a federal bullseye on your back). You basically give up all rights to privacy, because the gov't then have the right to inspect it at any given time and take it from you for virtually any reason, and can be as expensive as some people's homes.

Get a DUI? They take your FA (fully-auto) weapons. Commit any felony or class 3+ misdemeanor? They take your FA weapons. Write an angry letter to the gov't? They (could) take your FA weapons. These are more collector's items than used weapons. Unlike a simple pistol or hunting rifle, ANY time these change hands the feds are notified and they must approve the sale, and the transaction can take many months to be approved.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 4, 2017, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Just finished watching the latest press conference. Clark county sheriff stated that some were trampled and some were injured “by their own device”. I came in halfway through, but the words “radicalized” came out of his mouth.
Indeed. They have a lot more info than they've released, as they go over who else was involved. I don't blame them, the American people don't need to know everything at this stage.
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Oct 4, 2017, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Our USAG would issue the warrant, if it turns out the weapons came from those sold. We can tell by their serial numbers, unless they've been removed (which is very hard now, because some are so tiny and in random places).
So do you think Trump simply hasn't thought of this yet? I can't imagine he'd miss such an opportunity to please his base.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No, I think you misunderstood. The manufacturers sell to the dealers with FFLs, and those dealers sell to various gov't entities, American security companies (Brinks, Blackwater, the Merchant Marines), and foreign buyers who can legally buy them (other militaries, etc).
Yes, apparently I did misunderstand.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There are a tiny number of fully auto weapons made before 1986 that are traded amongst private citizens, but they're very closely tracked (owning one is like placing a federal bullseye on your back). You basically give up all rights to privacy, because the gov't then have the right to inspect it at any given time and take it from you for virtually any reason, and can be as expensive as some people's homes.

Get a DUI? They take your FA (fully-auto) weapons. Commit any felony or class 3+ misdemeanor? They take your FA weapons. Write an angry letter to the gov't? They (could) take your FA weapons. These are more collector's items than used weapons. Unlike a simple pistol or hunting rifle, ANY time these change hands the feds are notified and they must approve the sale, and the transaction can take many months to be approved.
This sounds closer to our laws for all guns, except even more strict. It sounds pretty sensible to me.
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Oct 4, 2017, 10:35 AM
 
What gets me is, you guys claim you despise Trump, you certainly don't trust his administration, but you want him to take everyone's means of defense?

"This guy is a fascist!"
"Yeah, let's give him all of our guns!"
"Wait, what?"

From the Right's perspective you're showing a hell of a lot more trust in his gov't than they are.
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besson3c
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
What gets me is, you guys claim you despise Trump, you certainly don't trust his administration, but you want him to take everyone's means of defense?

"This guy is a fascist!"
"Yeah, let's give him all of our guns!"
"Wait, what?"

From the Right's perspective you're showing a hell of a lot more trust in his gov't than they are.


I don't get this way of thinking, at all. This applies to my conversation with subego as well.

I think most Americans feel our democracy works. They may not agree with the results, but elections come and go and people get their say as to who they want in office, and while there are conspiracies and meddling such as the alleged Russian stuff, for the most part people seem content with the integrity of the elections.

It is a massive, massive, massive, massive leap to think that the appropriate next course of action with a politician that is distrusted is an armed insurrection. There are so many other first steps:

- voting
- constitutional protections
- political stalemate
- leaking of info
- small terrorist cells

The chances of some sort of mass violent civilian rebellion is lottery ticket small. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan. Even in those sorts of troubled countries it appears that an armed civilian rebellion is deemed as too costly, for the most part. Rebels in countries of this ilk have discovered the effectiveness of terrorist operations to get what they want.

This isn't a Hollywood movie, guys.
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:20 AM
 
I find it odd that the very things that many people claim are extremely powerful and a pillar of American society are also furiously protected as if they are extremely fragile.

If America's democracy is so awesome, freedom this freedom that, it can weather even a Donald Trump without people needing to lose their shit and plan some sort of armed insurrection against the government.

We don't need Bruce Willis.
     
Chongo
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I find it odd that the very things that many people claim are extremely powerful and a pillar of American society are also furiously protected as if they are extremely fragile.

If America's democracy is so awesome, freedom this freedom that, it can weather even a Donald Trump without people needing to lose their shit and plan some sort of armed insurrection against the government.

We don't need Bruce Willis.
Yes, no need to lose their ...... too late.
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Waragainstsleep
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
What gets me is, you guys claim you despise Trump, you certainly don't trust his administration, but you want him to take everyone's means of defense?

"This guy is a fascist!"
"Yeah, let's give him all of our guns!"
"Wait, what?"

From the Right's perspective you're showing a hell of a lot more trust in his gov't than they are.

Is this aimed at me? I don't think I specifically called for Trump to take anyone's guns. I don't think he would take them anyway. Unless someone offered him money for them.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Is this aimed at me?
Did I quote you or otherwise tag you with it?
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