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Las Vegas shooting (Page 4)
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Doc HM
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
TThis is an actual personal attack.
Says the man that started his post with the words "You are full of crap"

Same old same old. Attack,. dodge, whine, attack. Yawn.
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subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You're explaining the problem by emotional severity. I'm asking what would cause that. Of course things would have to be pretty bad to take up arms against the government. But what are those pretty bad things? Suspending elections is too easy. What else?

Aside: Here's my observation -It's less likely that our democracy will be 'suspended' by an overt act, rather than just being slowly eroded to the point that no one will notice or be sure when it ceased to exist.
Hitler would cause it. Stalin would cause it.

Could we get to either of those points by means of a "slow boil we don't realize"? Yes, however I'll note neither was known for their slow and deliberate methods.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't get this way of thinking, at all. This applies to my conversation with subego as well.

I think most Americans feel our democracy works. They may not agree with the results, but elections come and go and people get their say as to who they want in office, and while there are conspiracies and meddling such as the alleged Russian stuff, for the most part people seem content with the integrity of the elections.

It is a massive, massive, massive, massive leap to think that the appropriate next course of action with a politician that is distrusted is an armed insurrection. There are so many other first steps:

- voting
- constitutional protections
- political stalemate
- leaking of info
- small terrorist cells

The chances of some sort of mass violent civilian rebellion is lottery ticket small. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan. Even in those sorts of troubled countries it appears that an armed civilian rebellion is deemed as too costly, for the most part. Rebels in countries of this ilk have discovered the effectiveness of terrorist operations to get what they want.

This isn't a Hollywood movie, guys.
Who said it's the next step?

I explicitly labeled the type of insurrection under discussion as terrorism.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Hitler would cause it. Stalin would cause it.

Could we get to either of those points by means of a "slow boil we don't realize"? Yes, however I'll note neither was known for their slow and deliberate methods.
Elect a dictator is pretty superficial and obvious. So what action by these dictators would trigger the revolt?
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:47 AM
 
Vegas shooter left a note?
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Have you considered a point in time or set of circumstances where it will cease to be an effective deterrent?

Civilian arms have hit a wall in real terms. Automatic weapons are (supposed to be) highly restricted, I assume the same is true of grenade launchers and rocket launchers these days?
You might get slightly increased rates of semi-auto fire, lighter weight composite materials, higher accuracy and such, but it seems likely there will be no further notable leaps in stopping power, armour penetration or explosive yield on the market to civilians.

Many believe that we have surpassed the point where guerrilla tactics would prove effective by the US citizenry against the US military. What with satellite surveillance, thermal and night vision on UAVs etc, hiding in the woods is much harder than it used to be. I'm sure there are plenty of caves in the US but compared to places like Afghanistan, I'd wager most of them are fairly well known and when any sizeable mob disappears into one the military are going to have a pretty good head start when it comes to narrowing down where they went.

Throw in some good AI and a big fleet of drones can be left to deal with the militia by themselves. They'll likely never even see them to shoot back.

I believe that in any scenario where the US government starts behaving tyrannically to the point where a large number of citizens start and armed rebellion, at least some of your military leaders are likely to side with them. This means they'll likely have access to much better weapons and equipment anyway and there will be some kind of terrible civil war. In the previously mentioned guerrilla action, I don't see the successful emulation of the Viet Cong that many seem to.

Where do you draw this line?
The argument here is "guns won't do anything because the government can just kill you all"

That's the point.

Without guns, the government can do whatever it wants without killing us all.

Which will be harder for the government to achieve while retaining its structural integrity?

To directly answer the question, the line is farther out than one would imagine, because the primary weapon is psychology, not guns and rockets.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Elect a dictator is pretty superficial and obvious. So what action by these dictators would trigger the revolt?
As if our current president isn't compared to one of them on a daily basis.

I'm not buying my position is this opaque.
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Who said it's the next step?

I explicitly labeled the type of insurrection under discussion as terrorism.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth.

I'll say then that there are so many other possible intermediate steps that this is like jeopardizing the safety of your children to ensure your fifth redundant backup of your files is in good order, rather than just focusing on your backups 1-4 so that you don't have to make such drastic sacrifices.

The irony to all of this is that while that fifth backup is cool, the safety of our children is in jeopardy anyway literally and rhetorically because of the measures put in place to protect that fifth backup, which you likely don't really need in the first place.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Sorry for putting words in your mouth.

I'll say then that there are so many other possible intermediate steps that this is like jeopardizing the safety of your children to ensure your fifth redundant backup of your files is in good order, rather than just focusing on your backups 1-4 so that you don't have to make such drastic sacrifices.

The irony to all of this is that while that fifth backup is cool, the safety of our children is in jeopardy anyway literally and rhetorically because of the measures put in place to protect that fifth backup.
I feel this is similar to the insurance argument. The analogy doesn't address the policy's efficacy as a deterrent.
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:22 PM
 
Cab footage of the shooting. Watch the whole thing.

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Oct 4, 2017, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Says the man that started his post with the words "You are full of crap"

Same old same old. Attack,. dodge, whine, attack. Yawn.
Yeah, after you jumped me. Get your head sorted out. You're damned right, "same old, same old", some of you stay in a permanent state of rage around here. Go take a cold shower or something.
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Vegas shooter left a note?
Looks like a receipt.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Looks like a receipt.
Compared to the size of his feet, it seems larger.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As if our current president isn't compared to one of them on a daily basis.

I'm not buying my position is this opaque.
What had your position have anything to do with this? I'm asking for examples, red lines, etc.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What had your position have anything to do with this? I'm asking for examples, red lines, etc.
I honestly want to play along, but it seems to me it's "the reasons we all agree justify attempting to topple a government".

Excessively expansionist and/or murderous foreign policy.

Mass incarceration and/or deportation.

Abuse of martial law.
     
reader50
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Oct 4, 2017, 01:35 PM
 
The Constitution does not provide for martial law - we're locked into civil law. Any declaration of martial law within a US state would amount to toppling the Constitution - ie, treason or sedition.

I'm not sure about US territories though.
     
besson3c
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Oct 4, 2017, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
The Constitution does not provide for martial law - we're locked into civil law. Any declaration of martial law within a US state would amount to toppling the Constitution - ie, treason or sedition.

I'm not sure about US territories though.

Which is yet another safeguard and redundancy that would come well before needing to march to the whitehouse with guns on hand.
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 01:43 PM
 
Actually, I was arguing it would be a trigger. Having an official declare martial law would be a de-facto declaration that it's an occupational government. If the Constitution no longer rules, then it's no longer our government.
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 02:24 PM
 
IIUC, the president can suspend habeas corpus, and the congressional safeguards against using military law can and have been amended to provide exceptions.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 4, 2017, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I honestly want to play along, but it seems to me it's "the reasons we all agree justify attempting to topple a government".

Excessively expansionist and/or murderous foreign policy.

Mass incarceration and/or deportation.

Abuse of martial law.
I apologize because the thread of what I'm getting at got lost as the exchange lengthened. I'm thinking of what happens if the government starts prosecuting journalists or expands surveillance. These are fundamental rights we have under the constitution. Lets say the courts endorse these actions. Are we justified in revolting then?
     
subego
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Oct 4, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I apologize because the thread of what I'm getting at got lost as the exchange lengthened. I'm thinking of what happens if the government starts prosecuting journalists or expands surveillance. These are fundamental rights we have under the constitution. Lets say the courts endorse these actions. Are we justified in revolting then?
I thought this may be the direction you were going, but it's a hard question to answer without context.

I myself apologize if the following is too general.

I care more about justice, than I do law. If the prosecuting of the journalists is unjust, then the support of the law is pretty much irrelevant.

To me, the surveillance question depends on what the country wants. If the people want a surveillance state, I'm not going to stop it. It's my job to make them not want it.
     
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Oct 4, 2017, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
IIUC, the president can suspend habeas corpus, and the congressional safeguards against using military law can and have been amended to provide exceptions.
Lincoln did during the Civil War/War of Northern Agression.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-s...es/martial-law

In the United States, martial law has been instituted on the national level only once, during the Civil War, and on a regional level only once, during world war ii. Otherwise, it has been limited to the states. Uprisings, political protests, labor strikes, and riots have, at various times, caused several state governors to declare some measure of martial law.
Martial law on the national level may be declared by Congress or the president. Under Article I, Section 8, Clause 15, of the Constitution, Congress has the power "[t]o provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel Invasions." Article II, Section 2, Clause 1, of the Constitution declares that "[t]he President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States." Neither constitutional provision includes a direct reference to martial law. However, the Supreme Court has interpreted both to allow the declaration of martial law by the president or Congress. On the state level, a governor may declare martial law within her or his own state. The power to do so usually is granted in the state constitution.
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Doc HM
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Oct 4, 2017, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yeah, after you jumped me. Get your head sorted out. You're damned right, "same old, same old", some of you stay in a permanent state of rage around here. Go take a cold shower or something.
Dear me you are forgetful. I legitimately called you out on your jumping the gun speculating on the gunmans' motivation with zero evidence, or credibility. You pulled the "full of crap" personal insult card almost straight out of the bag. Not the first time, and not the first person either so I don't take it personally, you just like to sound big and loud.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 4, 2017, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Dear me you are forgetful.
No, I remember quite well how you popped a cap when I was speculating about who may be involved. Without that we wouldn't be at odds. You made this an argument, you did. As for sounding "big and loud", I once again refer to you trying to tell me what I can talk about in this thread. Get over it and grow up.
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Oct 4, 2017 at 07:45 PM. )
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Oct 4, 2017, 07:29 PM
 
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego
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Oct 5, 2017, 01:47 PM
 
Tried that once. Enjoyed it a little too much, and needed to pop one every half-hour.

Switched to cyclobenzaprine, which isn't fun, but does the trick. One of those and a fistful of Aleve cover me for the day if I have a back spasm.

As an aside, the gals I've given cyclobenzaprine to say it does a great job taking the edge off of period cramps. Most doctors should be willing to prescribe 24 as a 6 month supply. Stop asking me for mine FFS.
     
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Oct 5, 2017, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Excessively expansionist and/or murderous foreign policy.
People have been accusing you of the first one for over a decade now.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Mass incarceration and/or deportation.
Highest prison population per capita in the world isn't it? Wasn't mass deportation one of Trump's primary election promises?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Abuse of martial law.
Two down, one to go?

These might be on your naughty list, but it seems your fellow citizens are at best divided on the first two. I'm starting to think the only thing that would really make Americans take up arms against its government is if the government tries to take American's arms. As long as they let you keep them, you'll let them do pretty much whatever they want. Which renders them pointless for you, they are just a security blanket.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 5, 2017, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Tried that once. Enjoyed it a little too much, and needed to pop one every half-hour.

Switched to cyclobenzaprine, which isn't fun, but does the trick. One of those and a fistful of Aleve cover me for the day if I have a back spasm.

As an aside, the gals I've given cyclobenzaprine to say it does a great job taking the edge off of period cramps. Most doctors should be willing to prescribe 24 as a 6 month supply. Stop asking me for mine FFS.
I made the mistake of taking a couple Adderall years ago and, to this day, I still think about how much I'd like to have more of them. It's one of those things that I could probably talk my doc into giving me a scrip for but it would be very, very bad for me. It's like, "Oh yeah, I can see me abusing this stuff". In my system it's like pharma-grade cocaine and percocet combined. Perfect calm and focus, all wrapped-up in complete fearlessness. *shudder*
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subego
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Oct 6, 2017, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
People have been accusing you of the first one for over a decade now.



Highest prison population per capita in the world isn't it? Wasn't mass deportation one of Trump's primary election promises?



Two down, one to go?

These might be on your naughty list, but it seems your fellow citizens are at best divided on the first two. I'm starting to think the only thing that would really make Americans take up arms against its government is if the government tries to take American's arms. As long as they let you keep them, you'll let them do pretty much whatever they want. Which renders them pointless for you, they are just a security blanket.
Anyone who thinks our current foreign policy is excessively murderous to the point it justifies armed revolution, is quite simply wrong.

In the context being discussed, mass incarceration generally applies to political prisoners, and mass deportation applies to people in the country legally. I'm a touch surprised this needs clarification.
     
BadKosh
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Oct 6, 2017, 01:36 PM
 
Been busy with other stuff...but
Their are other ways than guns to deal with a bad political leader/system. Like bombs, and home made devices and traps. The element of surprise is important too.
( Last edited by BadKosh; Oct 6, 2017 at 02:01 PM. )
     
besson3c
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Oct 6, 2017, 02:54 PM
 
Great, well then if BadKosh is onboard that this whole tyranny thing is of minimum concern, I guess there should be no objections with actual attempts to reduce gun violence?
     
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Oct 6, 2017, 03:12 PM
 
Today on: "This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things: Twitter Edition"

Left-Wing Hollywood Actress: "No one is trying to confiscate your guns, we just need to talk about Common Sense gun laws."
Me: "Good, because let's be frank for a second. There is NO future where our firearms are taken that doesn't preclude a very bloody civil war."
LWHA: "See? We can't even discuss the issue with you!"

This has been another installment of: "This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things: Twitter Edition"
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subego
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Oct 6, 2017, 03:14 PM
 
Twitter is as Twitter does.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 6, 2017, 03:36 PM
 
It really does strip away pretense. That's one of the things I like about it.
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Oct 6, 2017, 06:09 PM
 
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 6, 2017, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
As crazy as it may sound considering how pro-gun rights I am, I ultimately came to the conclusion the militia is more relevant to the functioning of the amendment than the Supreme Court ruled.
     
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Oct 6, 2017, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As crazy as it may sound considering how pro-gun rights I am, I ultimately came to the conclusion the militia is more relevant to the functioning of the amendment than the Supreme Court ruled.
Not sure I understand what you mean there.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 6, 2017, 10:59 PM
 
My interpretation of the amendment is the "no infringement" clause is contingent on the existence of the militia. We don't have a militia, so the right can be infringed upon.
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 01:12 AM
 
Right, I gotcha.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 01:13 AM
 
I think it might be an interesting exercise to imagine what an armed rebellion might realistically look like, but that needs its own thread.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 06:29 AM
 
"Common Sense" is a judgement call, not a specific. Typical vague BS, like "sensible". Still not addressing criminals, terrorists or wack jobs. That would bring personal responsibility into the discussion. We all know how much liberals hate being judged by others.
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2017, 07:21 AM
 
Is there something specific this post is referring to?
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 07:37 AM
 
No, it's the typical softball.
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subego
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Oct 7, 2017, 07:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I think it might be an interesting exercise to imagine what an armed rebellion might realistically look like, but that needs its own thread.
The shape of the response depends on the nature of the threat.

I imagine the general outline would follow the terrorism model. Use mass murder and assassination to force the government to be more repressive, with the intent of draining resources and damaging popular support.
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 01:59 PM
 
I'm still interested in understanding if those of you in the camp of "guns to prevent tyranny" are starting to soften that stance?
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2017, 02:04 PM
 
Based on what?
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I feel this is similar to the insurance argument. The analogy doesn't address the policy's efficacy as a deterrent.
I don't understand what you mean here. If you want to go back to the insurance line of thinking, do you have insurance against grizzly bear attacks? Otherwise, how is this not like the fifth backup?
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2017, 02:09 PM
 
Whoops! NM!
     
subego
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Oct 7, 2017, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I don't understand what you mean here. If you want to go back to the insurance line of thinking, do you have insurance against grizzly bear attacks? Otherwise, how is this not like the fifth backup?
The world has seen multiple, horrible tyrants in the last 100 years. Is the rarity implied by grizzly bears apt?

I'm not sure how I should explain deterrence. An armed citizenry doesn't merely respond to tyranny, it makes it less likely in the first place by making it less attractive an option for the government.
     
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Oct 7, 2017, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Even taking up large cases one trip at a time should have raised red flags. "Hello, police? This guy at our hotel has taken 10 crates, nearly the size of coffins, up to his room. Could you come check this out?"
Because like most things in life, in hindsight it's much easier to say.

Hotel staff must see no end of odd sh*t going on. How long was he in the room? I've heard quite a while meaning individual staff may or may not have seen much of anything. And even if they did, who would imagine...
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