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MaxPower2k3 · Dec 3, 2006, 09:53 PM

I was waiting at the register at Best Buy for about 20 minutes while they looked for a copy of Guitar Hero 2 for me (apparently they were pretty well buried in the stockroom). During that time I saw one 360 sale and three PS2 sales. Of course, they were out of the Wii and PS3, so I didn't see either one of those. But i was really surprised at the number of PS2s i saw people leaving with.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 12:25 AM

People are still eating up the slimline PS2s. It's incredibly what they're doing with them. I guarantee you that Guitar Hero II has given the PS2 a shot in the arm by itself.

MaxPower2k3 · Dec 4, 2006, 12:37 AM

Guitar Hero II is good stuff. It's made me realize, however, that my pinky is double jointed, which is making it very hard for me to play on anything except Easy mode.

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 01:12 AM

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

The PS3 is benching in Linux at the speed of an 800 mhz P3.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

Guitar Hero II is good stuff. It's made me realize, however, that my pinky is double jointed, which is making it very hard for me to play on anything except Easy mode.

It's actually helped me develop better coordination with my pinky finger.

icruise · Dec 4, 2006, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Übersetzte Version von http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=11731119&forum_id=109161

The PS3 is benching in Linux at the speed of an 800 mhz P3.

What a very SWG-like comment. The article makes it (relatively) clear that this is because Linux can't see more than one processor core. I have no idea why anyone would actually want to run Linux on the PS3 anyway, aside from the fact that "they can."

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

The PS3 is benching in Linux at the speed of an 800 mhz P3.

Now not even you believe that.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

...aside from the fact that "they can."

Bingo.

I'm sure the PS3's ability to run Linux will make Linux fans happy, but most people who own one won't even know anything about Linux, much less consider using it.

It seems that the PS3 is trying to do just a tad too much this generation. I appreciate the effort to make the PS3 a family's digital hub, but Blu-ray, Linux, and downloadable HD movies...it all seems like a lot. Consider the fact that this ambitious effort is responsible for jacking the price of the PS3 through the roof, and you can bet that Sony is praying that people are ready for this kind of thing.

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Now not even you believe that.

I do. For the above reason. Linux can only use one Core (those of you familiar with the design of the Cell will understand why, there is only one usable Core on the Cell).

The PS3 is not a suitable full function computer. Sony's claim that it is a computer is bunk.

Chuckit · Dec 4, 2006, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

What a very SWG-like comment. The article makes it (relatively) clear that this is because Linux can't see more than one processor core. I have no idea why anyone would actually want to run Linux on the PS3 anyway, aside from the fact that "they can."

Holy crap, didn't this same conversation happen, like, 10 pages ago, only I said what you said?

icruise · Dec 4, 2006, 01:34 AM

Probably. I am getting deja vu.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

Probably. I am getting deja vu.

This thread is a weary drunk, staggering towards his home of 100 pages, but will probably pass out in the gutter.

TETENAL · Dec 4, 2006, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

The article makes it (relatively) clear that this is because Linux can't see more than one processor core.

It's not an "article". This is a forum-entry. And the heise forum is well known for it's extreme bullshit and trolling (which this entry fits well into).

Eug Wanker · 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

I do. For the above reason. Linux can only use one Core (those of you familiar with the design of the Cell will understand why, there is only one usable Core on the Cell).

The PS3 is not a suitable full function computer. Sony's claim that it is a computer is bunk.

That single core is more than capable. It isn't über fast, but it's faster than a lot of G4s people on this very forum use. If it weren't, few of the games on the PS3 would actually be feasible. Remember, it is this same core that runs the Xbox 360. Granted there are three of them in the 360, but they run somewhat slower, and you'd have a VERY hard time trying to decode 22 Mbps H.264 along with audio, etc. with three G4s, even at 1.67 GHz each. Yet, an Xbox 360 can do it quite well. I also note that a single 1.67 GHz G4 is in the fastest PowerBook ever made, and of Apple's "pro" laptops sold in 2006.

TETENAL · Dec 4, 2006, 02:08 AM

Nice PS3 video.

GameTrailers.com Player Window

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Nice PS3 video.

GameTrailers.com Player Window

Doesn't make sense as obviously the camera work in the E3 footage would never work in a real game.

Jawbone54 · Dec 4, 2006, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Nice PS3 video.

GameTrailers.com Player Window

After spending quite a bit of time playing Motor Storm, I left unimpressed. It's a good game, but not a great game. I wasn't stunned by the visuals like I thought I would be either. Right now I'm up in the air between a PS3 and a 360 (what would be my second), and I might be swayed by the exclusives. Games like Motor Storm aren't going to do it for me.

Dakar² · Dec 4, 2006, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

The PS3 is not a suitable full function computer. Sony's claim that it is a computer is bunk.

Thereby making the Wii superior and winning this gen.

But seriously, did anyone really believe or care about Sony's claim. That is, outside of you, apparently.

Gamoe · Dec 4, 2006, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Sony is arrogant and that's why they deserve to be pushed out by M$. Sony is not really innovating because they don't really have to. Meantime Microsoft is packing everything they can into the XBox to sell it. Sony is playing catchup in a lot of ways. Microsoft does have a monopoly in computer operating systems, but it's still not nearly the power Sony has in home electronics. Just because Microsoft has a controlling share in one industry does not make it close to world domination.

No, Sony is arrogant and deserves to get second place to Nintendo, but certainly not to M$. I'm sorry, but I'm looking at "the big picture" here, and I'd hate to see Microsoft dominate in yet another industry. Sony, I'm not too big on either, since I see them having way too much power in different industries, including content and home electronics at once.

But the immediate threat is Microsoft, in my view. M$ must not be allowed to succeed in this market. How much more do you want Microsoft in your life? I want them completely out of my life, personally.

What I'd really like is to see Sega come back (with a plan and without whoring around as they have lately), as well as another (ideally North American) console maker enter the industry and push M$ out. Of course, that's not likely to happen, but it's the way I would prefer it.

Hawkeye_a · Dec 4, 2006, 07:22 AM

Linux ?? Whyyyy ?!?!!? what purpose would it serve ?

3 more days to Wii-Day here in Oz.....

- - e r i k - - · Dec 4, 2006, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Doesn't make sense as obviously the camera work in the E3 footage would never work in a real game.

While the camera angles were clearly there for dramatic purposes, it was obviously labeled as a "test render" thereby strongly implying that this was the graphics they were aiming for. Looks like somebody swallowed Sony's bullshit again, this time perhaps the game developers.

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Looks like somebody swallowed Sony's bullshit again, this time perhaps the game developers.

More like a developer put out some bullshit of their own unless Sony held a gun to their heads yelling "RENDER ME MILLIONS OF POLYGONS BITCH!".

Hawkeye_a · Dec 4, 2006, 09:59 AM

Oye starman. you got me thinking about the dreamcast and why the PS2 (and GCN and XB) beat it out. why did the dreamcast fail ? Was it cause Sega was loosing money on it from launch ? bad advertizing(if any) ?

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Oye starman. you got me thinking about the dreamcast and why the PS2 (and GCN and XB) beat it out. why did the dreamcast fail ? Was it cause Sega was loosing money on it from launch ? bad advertizing(if any) ?

It was partly because everyone knew the more powerful PS2 was less than a year away so they just waited for it.

Chuckit · Dec 4, 2006, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

It was partly because everyone knew the more powerful PS2 was less than a year away so they just waited for it.

I doubt that was all that much of a factor. The Playstation 3 coming out in a year didn't kill the Xbox 360. If people decided just to wait for a Playstation, there was already an underlying problem there.

Millennium · Dec 4, 2006, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Now not even you believe that.

I can see where it might be possible, but it would mean that the benchmarks are very bad. As others have pointed out, to really get at the power behind the Cell you have to use parallel algorithms, as is true for all multiprocessing systems (multiple chips and/or multiple cores). Parallel algorithms are not necessarily difficult to program, but the languages and paradigms currently popular for programming games tend to make it significantly more difficult to use parallel algorithms than it really needs to be.

It doesn't look like the benchmarks here were properly parallelized: they only used one core. If that's the case, then yes, the Cell would come out looking underpowered. To come out looking that underpowered is somewhat surprising, and this leads me to believe that there are other problems in the benchmarks as well, but the lack of parallelization is the biggest problem.

I wonder if it would be possible to program on the PS3 using Erlang...

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I doubt that was all that much of a factor. The Playstation 3 coming out in a year didn't kill the Xbox 360. If people decided just to wait for a Playstation, there was already an underlying problem there.

Today is another story. Back then it was different.

The PS1 was a huge hit and won the market. Then the more powerful Dreamcast ships but it only uses 900meg CD's and semi powerful CPU. People already know of the PS2 with its DVD player and other technical wiz bangs so they decided to wait for it.

itai195 · Dec 4, 2006, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

It was partly because everyone knew the more powerful PS2 was less than a year away so they just waited for it.

Including developers, like EA. Outside of RE:CV, DoA2, and Soul Calibur, its third party support was abysmal.

ort888 · Dec 4, 2006, 01:14 PM

Plus Sega was coming off 3 or 4 hardware failures in a row.

32X, Sega CD, Nomad, Saturn and Game Gear all were commercial and critical flops.

Weezer · Dec 4, 2006, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Today is another story. Back then it was different.

The PS2 was a huge hit and won the market. Then the more powerful 360 ships but it only uses 8 gig DVDs. People already know of the PS3 with its blu-ray player and other technical wiz bangs so they decided to wait for it.

fixed? hows again is it different?

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

It doesn't look like the benchmarks here were properly parallelized: they only used one core. If that's the case, then yes, the Cell would come out looking underpowered. To come out looking that underpowered is somewhat surprising, and this leads me to believe that there are other problems in the benchmarks as well, but the lack of parallelization is the biggest problem.

I wonder if it would be possible to program on the PS3 using Erlang...

The problem is the Cell only has one Core, and 7 programmable co-processors. Programmable co-processors can't simply be retasked as other cores. In order to make them operate as other Cores, you'd have to load a PowerPC emulator on each co-processor, the performance of which may not be so hot.

The Cell isn't very usable in general computing.

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Weezer

fixed? hows again is it different?

Because even when it was announced it was an improvement but still not much of a technical leap.

Felt like a ho-hum machine but you could have it today rather than waiting a year for the PS2 which would pretty much beat it in every way.

People decided to wait.

For me I was turned off right away as Sega's history was poor with hardware as they would rush to get something on market soon and later add speed boosters and new storage to keep up with the competition.

Eug Wanker · Dec 4, 2006, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The problem is the Cell only has one Core, and 7 programmable co-processors. Programmable co-processors can't simply be retasked as other cores. In order to make them operate as other Cores, you'd have to load a PowerPC emulator on each co-processor, the performance of which may not be so hot.

The Cell isn't very usable in general computing.

Like I said before, a single PPE should be more than capable for basic general computing. It won't be fast, but it will be adequate.

P.S. Even if it was a slow as a PIII 800, Linux with such a computer is a fine general usage machine.

However, my guess is that with some usage it would bench much, much faster, especially with stuff like video encoding, assuming that the software was properly optimized and there were good compilers available.

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Like I said before, a single PPE should be more than capable for basic general computing. It won't be fast, but it will be adequate.

The PPE is not a full fledged PowerPC. It's missing a lot of optimization features, and it's not really meant to be used alone.

Eug Wanker · Dec 4, 2006, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The PPE is not a full fledged PowerPC. It's missing a lot of optimization features, and it's not really meant to be used alone.

Yes, and that is why it won't be fast with general computing. However, for every day type stuff in a living room, it should be fine.

Or do you consider say a G4 iBook totally useless?

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Or do you consider say a G4 iBook totally useless?

His math is like this:

Wii has enough CPU for graphics even though graphics are not important.

The GMA 950 video card in Mac's suck because they can't handle "good enough" graphics.

The PS3 is slow even though specs aren't supposed to matter.

That should save you from backing and forthing.

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yes, and that is why it won't be fast with general computing. However, for every day type stuff in a living room, it should be fine.

Or do you consider say a G4 iBook totally useless?

For sending email and such, yeah.

Although for those sort of purposes you could buy a much much cheaper actual computer.

While not many people here were looking to buy it to run Linux (this is MacNN after all), some crowds (Slashdot) bought Sony's marketing and thought they could buy a Linux supercomputer for $600.

Chuckit · Dec 4, 2006, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

For sending email and such, yeah.

Although for those sort of purposes you could buy a much much cheaper actual computer.

While not many people here were looking to buy it to run Linux (this is MacNN after all), some crowds (Slashdot) bought Sony's marketing and thought they could buy a Linux supercomputer for $600.

Those people probably didn't have much use for a supercomputer anyway.

Calimus · Dec 4, 2006, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yes, and that is why it won't be fast with general computing. However, for every day type stuff in a living room, it should be fine.

Or do you consider say a G4 iBook totally useless?

They are saying that it doesn't have the full feature set of a G4, let alone a G3. It's more akin to trying to run a desktop OS off of a GPU. You could do it, but even a GPU with 10x the transistors of a CPU won't give you anywhere near the performance. (All theoretical of course, who knows what they could do if a programmer sat down and wrote a OS meant to run on a GPU)

Eug Wanker · Dec 4, 2006, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Calimus

It's more akin to trying to run a desktop OS off of a GPU.

No it isn't.

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

No it isn't.

It's closer. The SPE is not a full featured PowerPC processor. It's missing common PowerPC processor features.

Eug Wanker · Dec 4, 2006, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

It's closer. The SPE is not a full featured PowerPC processor. It's missing common PowerPC processor features.

I'm talking about PPE, as that's what we have been talking about here for the past several posts. PPE is a general purpose core. It's not a fast one per clock by any means, but it's a highly clocked one. It would be able to run Linux just fine, as is evidenced by the fact that it already IS running Linux just fine.

Now some people may have mistakenly thought that Cell would be uber fast with Linux for general purpose computing. Well, they're wrong. That doesn't mean the PS3 is useless a general purpose computer.

I agree a dedicated laptop or whatever would be better, but the PS3 hooked up a 1080p or 720p screen would make a fine surfing, word processing, and email machine, an added bonus for those buying the PS3 for gaming anyway.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 4, 2006, 04:25 PM

I thought everybody knew the Cell was crap for general computing way back when Apple announced the switch to Intel?

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I thought everybody knew the Cell was crap for general computing way back when Apple announced the switch to Intel?

Good thing it wasn't designed to be a general computer than.

- - e r i k - - · Dec 4, 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Good thing it wasn't designed to be a general computer than.

Indeed. So people shouldn't act surprised at Linux benchmarking being crap on it.

goMac · Dec 4, 2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I'm talking about PPE, as that's what we have been talking about here for the past several posts. PPE is a general purpose core. It's not a fast one per clock by any means, but it's a highly clocked one. It would be able to run Linux just fine, as is evidenced by the fact that it already IS running Linux just fine.

Now some people may have mistakenly thought that Cell would be uber fast with Linux for general purpose computing. Well, they're wrong. That doesn't mean the PS3 is useless a general purpose computer.

I agree a dedicated laptop or whatever would be better, but the PS3 hooked up a 1080p or 720p screen would make a fine surfing, word processing, and email machine, an added bonus for those buying the PS3 for gaming anyway.

Sorry, I meant the PPE. The PPE is not a full featured PowerPC. It's missing some optimization features.

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Indeed. So people shouldn't act surprised at Linux benchmarking being crap on it.

It is just stupid to begin with. Whenever a new Mac comes out the benchmark software is totally wrong because it doesn't understand the hardware.

Even then the PS3 can at least do Xbox 360 graphics which is good enough.

Eug Wanker · Dec 4, 2006, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

It is just stupid to begin with. Whenever a new Mac comes out the benchmark software is totally wrong because it doesn't understand the hardware.

Even then the PS3 can at least do Xbox 360 graphics which is good enough.

BTW, even though the Xbox 360 has no general purpose OS support, ironically it'd be much faster than the PS3 for general purpose computing. Each PPE core on the 360 is clocked slower than the PS3's PPE, but there are three of them.

As for new Macs, the SPEC benchmark software is often a pretty good indication of how the Mac will perform. It'd be interesting to see just how badly the PS3 would perform at SPEC, but I betcha we won't see SPEC done on the PS3 any time soon.

Dark Helmet · Dec 4, 2006, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

BTW, even though the Xbox 360 has no general purpose OS support, ironically it'd be much faster than the PS3 for general purpose computing. Each PPE core on the 360 is clocked slower than the PS3's PPE, but there are three of them.

Well good for the Xbox but this argument is rather wonkey to begin with.

icruise · Dec 4, 2006, 05:14 PM

Yesterday was apparently the day they released the original playstation in 1994 (in Japan). I don't remember exactly when I got mine, but it must not have been too long after the US launch. I still have a bunch of the launch games, which at the time seemed pretty good, since they were doing things that we had never really seen in games. Just a (quasi) 3D fighter like Battle Arena Toshinden seemed amazing. I remember playing Twisted Metal, Soul Blade, and Warhawk a lot, and I loved the whole wipeout series.

I remember that my Dad and I got the system at an Electronics Boutique (back when they were still called that). They were supposed to have some game half off but they were sold out, so the woman there said that we could have half off on ALL PS1 games. That was a pretty amazing deal at the time, so I ended up with a most of the launch titles, including gems like 3D Lemmings and Loaded (ugh).

It's amazing to think that Sony only stopped production of the PS1 (PSOne) this year.