[WOPR]

Is this the right room for an argument?

[baw]

A lame argument at that.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Zak Nilsson

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...mp=1#post22753

"...new tune-ups for the Mac client are somewhat contingent on improvements to the GL API and drivers that Apple and ATI are working on. Beyond that is NDA land."

WoW is running pretty much the best Blizzard can make it run on Macs right now, and it has nothing to do with the Windows version. The Mac game was built from the ground up for OS X and using OpenGL.

Interesting. Tigerclaw also says in a another thread http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...mp=1#post22328

"Full screen glow is one specific feature that really pulls down the FPS on the Mac client, and we're working to improve that.

In gathering benchmark results, I'd be interested to see how we do on the OSX client with glow off, and on both clients with "M2Faster" set to 1 in the config.wtf."

...and http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...rt&T=22328&P=3

"It'll be more interesting when we make the Mac client faster.."

Now I'm not sure how far I should analyze this last one...but 'we' definitely doesn't mean 'Apple' and nobody knows what he meant by faster...does he mean faster than it right now or does he mean faster than the PC version?

I'd take what Tigerclaw says with a grain of salt but I'd guess he has some info but an upcoming release of WoW with fixes by Blizzard.

So here's my point: Quit blaming Apple.

Fact: nobody knows for sure who's fault it is...is it really Apple's OpenGL or video card drivers or is it bad ports using Windows codepaths.

Fact: Cinebench runs faster on OS X than Windows. So parts of OpenGL are working just fine in OS X.

Fact: WoW *is* a port...I don't know why you keep trotting out that it was built from the ground up for Mac. It was built on a PC and the Mac team worked on porting the PC code. Just because WoW was a simultaneous Mac/Win release, doesn't mean the two were developed with their own separate optimized code branch.

The fault could still be Apple's...or could be Blizzard's...or even both.

I'm curious if Tigerclaw's comments will come to fruition. It'll be a way to figure out who's fault it is.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by WOPR

Is this the right room for an argument?

I'm sorry, but this is abuse. ... you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.

[eevyl]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Fact: WoW *is* a port...I don't know why you keep trotting out that it was built from the ground up for Mac. It was built on a PC and the Mac team worked on porting the PC code. Just because WoW was a simultaneous Mac/Win release, doesn't mean the two were developed with their own separate optimized code branch.

I would love to see prove of that fact. Blizzard always had a Mac team at the company working on the games simultaneously with the Windows teams, that's why they do release both at the same time. It would be really really hard to do simultaneous release if the Mac team needed to wait for the PC code to go FC before "porting" it and then doing the beta cycle and get to FC.

Dunno, I see as much more efficient if you have a inside team to not do a port and actually make both clients at the same time. It's not that difficult to develop a core engine that is crossplatform and "just" (quotes because that just very probably is a lot of work) code a client for both platforms at the same time.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by eevyl

I would love to see prove of that fact. Blizzard always had a Mac team at the company working on the games simultaneously with the Windows teams, that's why they do release both at the same time. It would be really really hard to do simultaneous release if the Mac team needed to wait for the PC code to go FC before "porting" it and then doing the beta cycle and get to FC.

Dunno, I see as much more efficient if you have a inside team to not do a port and actually make both clients at the same time. It's not that difficult to develop a core engine that is crossplatform and "just" (quotes because that just very probably is a lot of work) code a client for both platforms at the same time.

A port is essentially using code that's already written and tying the code to OS specific APIs.

Unless *you* can prove to me that both were developed independently, WoW is a port. You can also try to prove that the game was written for Macs and ported to PC.

There's no waiting involved in the port if the logistics are efficient. I have no doubts that Blizzard's logistics are efficient...hence why the release was simultaneous. But this in no way means the Mac version wasn't a port.

[eevyl]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Unless *you* can prove to me that both were developed independently, WoW is a port. You can also try to prove that the game was written for Macs and ported to PC.

There's no waiting involved in the port if the logistics are efficient. I have no doubts that Blizzard's logistics are efficient...hence why the release was simultaneous. But this in no way means the Mac version wasn't a port.

ROFLcopter

So just because we both don't have prove of our points, then you must be right! LOL

Look, I don't say it is a port or not, I say we don't know. If you do know, please elaborate. That you think that you are right doesn't make your statement a truth. That way of thought wrong is and to the path to the dark side lead you will, would say Yoda.

[Chuckit]

Which is more likely?

1) Blizzard had two full teams working independently on essentially two completely separate codebases that were ultimately meant to do the same thing, causing not only double the number of bugs, but also the problem of keeping the two projects in sync

2) Blizzard had a core team work on WOW and a Mac team maintained a port based on that code

Because one of these ideas seems significantly more likely to me.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Which is more likely?

1) Blizzard had two full teams working independently on essentially two completely separate codebases that were ultimately meant to do the same thing, causing not only double the number of bugs, but also the problem of keeping the two projects in sync

2) Blizzard had a core team work on WOW and a Mac team maintained a port based on that code

Because one of these ideas seems significantly more likely to me.

Exactly.

I've uninstalled WoW from my computer a year ago but I distinctly remember the credits showing the PC team being much larger than the Mac team (and I'm not counting the people that took care of the game content).

Now, maybe the Mac programmers were some kind of super programmers but I know for a fact that John Stiles is just an average guy with a family and he's busy doing a lot of things other than programming...so I don't think he was up late nights in the Blizzard offices coding the same stuff that 10 people were coding on the PC side.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by eevyl

ROFLcopter

So just because we both don't have prove of our points, then you must be right! LOL

Look, I don't say it is a port or not, I say we don't know. If you do know, please elaborate. That you think that you are right doesn't make your statement a truth. That way of thought wrong is and to the path to the dark side lead you will, would say Yoda.

The burden of the proof lies on whoever started this wild claim. Not me.

Claiming that a game was developped independently on the Mac and not *ported to* Mac is in fact a pretty ****ing wild claim. In fact, it's unheard of outside of Pangea Software, Ambrosia, and Freeverse who develop relatively smaller games.

All I'm seeing in this thread is a lot of guessing, wild claims, and finger pointing and zero facts. Performance problems are apparently all Apple's fault. WoW for Mac and WoW for PC are now apparently based on a code base that isn't shared, and a few are tagging people as zealots when they point out that the claims are not facts but simple guesses.

[ksloan2]

Originally Posted by tooki

Well, the OP isn't the first person to notice that Windows tends to feel "snappy", while Macs are sometimes a tad sluggish. It's also been shown fairly conclusively that OS X is extremely slow at some tasks (like creating new threads) that impede performance of some types of applications. Now that the same hardware can run both Windows and Mac OS X, it's going to really make visible which slowdowns are due to application design, and which ones are the OS.

tooki

As a recent switcher of three weeks, I can confirm that the Windows XP ui is in fact much "snappier" and faster. But the reason OS X isn't, is by design. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Apple don't want it to be snappy.

Everything in OS X is smooth. Everything animates, fades, flows, and moves smoothly and in a calm pace. It is as I've posted on another forum, that OS X is more like a buddy who tells you "hey, relax, I'm here to help you and make you feel good".

Snappy also adds an element of stress, imo. Everything in Windows XP happens without any visible notification, so you try to keep up (until it crashes or does something you don't want it to, which adds to the stress even more).

I don't know if some of you think this is fanboy talk, but I've been a Windows XP user since BeOS went to the grave, and switching to Apple has actually really made me appreciate the taskbar. It's a usability work of art, whereas the dock is a usability nightmare!

I'm slower with OS X, but I'm enjoying the experience more.

[Tomchu]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Which is more likely?

1) Blizzard had two full teams working independently on essentially two completely separate codebases that were ultimately meant to do the same thing, causing not only double the number of bugs, but also the problem of keeping the two projects in sync

2) Blizzard had a core team work on WOW and a Mac team maintained a port based on that code

Because one of these ideas seems significantly more likely to me.

We also have ...

3) 95% of WoW's code is the same for both platforms, and they have two independent teams who then wrote the remaining platform-specific 5% for both the PC and the Mac.

This is essentially how games like Quake 3 were released on Windows, Linux, and Mac at relatively the same time. Most of the code stays the same. This is good programming technique.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

We also have ...

3) 95% of WoW's code is the same for both platforms, and they have two independent teams who then wrote the remaining platform-specific 5% for both the PC and the Mac.

This is essentially how games like Quake 3 were released on Windows, Linux, and Mac at relatively the same time. Most of the code stays the same. This is good programming technique.

Actually...that option falls into number 2 because all ports need to tie to OS-specific APIs.

Unless of course you're telling us that the 'client' is that 5% of the code and that it was developped from scratch for the Mac...of course, this would also be a guess on your part.

[eeeaa]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

I could give possible reasons for why iTunes is faster in OS X, but I'd have to run my own tests to make any conclusive statements. The same goes for Cinebench. I would really like to know more about their testing methodology personally. Was DEP on, for instance? If so, why? OS X has no such thing, so it should be disabled in XP, as it hinders performance in a few cases.

When I asked for more benchmarks, I wanted benchmarks that were done in a very transparent manner, and described. I can easily turn a benchmark into saying what I want it to say.

You would like to have more information on the Cinebench testing methodology? Why is that? You seem so quick to take what "Gabe over at Penny Arcade" says at face value, why not other tests performed by others? I mean, Gabe was using an obviously flawed test to prove almost nothing, and you posted a misleading title to draw people into this thread and create a huge discussion. Frankly, it's all a waste of time. OS X is not a gaming platform, so running tests involving games is a poor excuse for an experiment anyway.

I'm not saying that OS X is faster than XP in terms of the speed at which it can run games (in fact, I just said this above). Your statement above caught my eye, however. You are too willing to take those results that prove your argument, while discarding those that do not. And please, don't say that you aren't discarding those that support another view. Your statement, "I could give possible reasons for why iTunes is faster in OS X, but I'd have to run my own tests to make any conclusive statements. The same goes for Cinebench.", above, is clear. You are willing to take the results of others where they fit (Penny Arcade), but you claim that the others need more study, which essentially says, "I'm not going to talk about those, or allow them to be included in the conversation, because I haven't seen it myself." This type of spinning is typical of politicians and reminds me of the "it needs more study" global warming "debate". Pick what you like, discard what you don't, and convince people with sound bytes (or, in your case, with poor test results and a short, easy-to-remember, title that sticks in the mind.

Also, you have called others zealots. Believe me, I'm with you when it comes to the Mac fanboys, but this thread hasn't seen one. The fact is, no one is really disagreeing with you. Most are stating the obvious: Windows is faster with games (for whatever reason). What has upset people is that you came in here trolling for people to deliver exactly what you wanted - fanboyism. You claim to hate it, but you seem to be looking for it, and that's evident in your responses to everyone, accusing them of apologizing for Apple's shortcomings. You didn't get it, but you still demonize everyone who attempts to state those facts which you (1) didn't know, and (2) didn't include in your very brief post.

You, sir, are the one with flawed tests. You would make a very poor scientist (but hey, you'd be great at government oversight of science - they love to pick and choose).

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

Mac OS X looks beautiful..... Windows (the basic OS stuff; rendering menus, windows, drawing icons, scrolling, etc.) feels faster..... if only there was a built-in feature in the Mac OS to tweak settings to make it feel as 'snappy' as Windows if a user wanted to.

As for games, why settle for mediocre performance? Why stop here? I say it's time to shake up the Mac gaming scene and increase Apple's market share some more!!!

It was real sad though because at one point when i was visiting a local CompUSA, i heard two guys poking fun at the Mac Games section saying.... oh look.... 'Edu-tainment'.... 'hahaha'.... 'now, where's doom 2? what? mario teaches typing!?'

I'd like for Apple to get their revenge and show everyone that Apple -can- be a serious platform for gaming. But then again, with only a handful of game developers for the mac platform compared to the nearly boundless number of game developers on the PC side, i guess i can see why Apple's gaming scene usually has been mediocre.

[eeeaa]

Originally Posted by sushiism

Yeah but if you buy something like a PS2 or a Gamecube you get to play real games which are not just a simplistic mindless waste of time with a chatroom full of idiots running in the background.

I suggest MGS2 or F-Zero GX would be a good place to start.

Maybe you should start your own gaming magazine. You could rate games and everything, and people would read it and take your advice on which games are the best, and which are trash. You could alienate half of the gaming world by telling them that the games they like suck. I'm sure it wouldn't eat into your profits much. But hey, you'd be standing on an important principle: MMORPGs suck (in your opinion).

Or, you could just keep your opinions about WoW vs. the console games out of this thread, seeing as how it doesn't relate to the topic, no one asked you, and no one really cares what your opinion is, since, as I've already stated, we are here discussing something else. If all that comes out of your mouth is childish trolling, keep your mouth closed on this thread and go post to the games section where this type of "gaming philosophy" is discussed.

Have a nice day.

[eevyl]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Actually...that option falls into number 2 because all ports need to tie to OS-specific APIs.

Unless of course you're telling us that the 'client' is that 5% of the code and that it was developped from scratch for the Mac...of course, this would also be a guess on your part.

And we know that guesses that don't match yours are totally false

And yes I was talking more along the lines of what Tomchu said about WoW development.

Anyway on the topic at hand, clearly if WoW is double as fast in Windows than in OS X doesn't equal Windows is double as fast as OS X. And we all know OpenGL implementation is somehow lacking in Mac OSes for quite some time, as game developers have whinned about it again and again. As was said earlier about Blizzard waiting for Apple to fix this and that.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by eevyl

And we know that guesses that don't match yours are totally false

And yes I was talking more along the lines of what Tomchu said about WoW development.

Anyway on the topic at hand, clearly if WoW is double as fast in Windows than in OS X doesn't equal Windows is double as fast as OS X. And we all know OpenGL implementation is somehow lacking in Mac OSes for quite some time, as game developers have whinned about it again and again. As was said earlier about Blizzard waiting for Apple to fix this and that.

If they were guesses...perhaps I'd adopt that mentality. But I've actually spoken to one of the few Mac developers on the WoW team when it was in beta. So I can assure you these aren't guesses.

Apple *is* fixing "this and that"...Apple often works with the game developers to resolve bugs and issues with OpenGL. There's only so much Apple can do.

Have you seen Apple's implementation? Or the game code? How do you know who's at fault?

I understand you love to guess answers and blame people without any evidence but please contain yourself.

[eevyl]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

If they were guesses...perhaps I'd adopt that mentality. But I've actually spoken to one of the few Mac developers on the WoW team when it was in beta. So I can assure you these aren't guesses.

Now that's a bone. I guess (have to admit, I love it) that you just wanted some flaming fun before stating such a nice and perfect explanation. If a WoW developer told you that the Mac version is a port, then who am I to say otherwise, or even guess it. See?, it wasn't that difficult, I actually enjoy to be proven wrong, so I can improve.

[Zak Nilsson]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

If they were guesses...perhaps I'd adopt that mentality. But I've actually spoken to one of the few Mac developers on the WoW team when it was in beta. So I can assure you these aren't guesses.

Apple *is* fixing "this and that"...Apple often works with the game developers to resolve bugs and issues with OpenGL. There's only so much Apple can do.

Have you seen Apple's implementation? Or the game code? How do you know who's at fault?

I understand you love to guess answers and blame people without any evidence but please contain yourself.

We have the CMs on the Mac WoW forum telling us that they're waiting specifically for Apple to implement changes to OpenGL, and when that happens WoW performance will improve on the Mac side (most likely after a patch that contains the changes that take advantage of the changes Apple makes to their OpenGL implementation). They've done this before too, they waited till Apple implemented changes to OpenGL and came out with another 10.3.x or 10.4.x release, then released their own patch taking advantage of those changes. It seems that Blizzard is always waiting for Apple to improve OpenGL.

Now honestly I don't really care who you say you've talked to at Blizzard, I'll take the blue text on the WoW forums at their word over yours any day.

[ksloan2]

Originally Posted by Zak Nilsson

We have the CMs on the Mac WoW forum telling us that they're waiting specifically for Apple to implement changes to OpenGL, and when that happens WoW performance will improve on the Mac side (most likely after a patch that contains the changes that take advantage of the changes Apple makes to their OpenGL implementation). They've done this before too, they waited till Apple implemented changes to OpenGL and came out with another 10.3.x or 10.4.x release, then released their own patch taking advantage of those changes. It seems that Blizzard is always waiting for Apple to improve OpenGL.

Now honestly I don't really care who you say you've talked to at Blizzard, I'll take the blue text on the WoW forums at their word over yours any day.

Someone mentioned this on irc a few days back as well, but couldn't find the links. Could you dig up the link to the post(s) in question which you refer to? I'm interested to see if there is any more detail to be had.

[Love Calm Quiet]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Edit: I guess this forum doesn't allow the changing of topic titles. Lame.

I remember when it DID. Days long ago...