[vmarks]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050501563.html

Within an hour, the entire village would learn that the 25-year-old married woman had been discovered in a darkened nearby hut with her lover.
Within two days, Amina was dead -- killed by her fellow villagers April 20 after the men of the community ruled that she had violated Islamic law by having an affair with a neighbor....

Soon Amina's father, the elders and a crowd of villagers had gathered outside. Mohammad unlocked the chain and flung open his front door. At the back of the room sat his son, Karim, on a floor cushion.

Next to him sat Amina. Her expression was once again blank, Aslam said.

It threw Aslam into a rage.

"I shouted, 'What is she doing here? Give her to me! I will kill her!' " he recounted last week. "I was so shocked, and my Islamic dignity was so offended."

But the other villagers restrained him, Aslam and other witnesses said.

"We told him, 'No, no! This should be handled by sharia now,' " his brother Hashem recalled, referring to the Islamic legal code.

"Fine, I will give her over to sharia then," Aslam said he responded. "Whatever sharia says, I will do it."...

Under sharia, the punishment for adultery is death by stoning. But the code requires that there be undeniable proof of the crime -- for instance, multiple witnesses to the sex act, a confession, or other signs such as an inexplicable pregnancy....

But no one involved disputes that the villagers were unanimous in their view that according to the dictates of Islam, the proper resolution of the case would be for Karim, as an unmarried man, to be lashed and Amina, as a married woman, to be stoned to death.

Early that afternoon, one of the mullahs went to fetch a stick with which to whip Karim as Yousaf took his leave of the villagers.

Then they watched Yousaf's turban slowly vanish over a mountain path and, along with it, Amina's last hope.

Punishment

There are two, conflicting accounts of Amina's death.

According to her great-uncle Assan, after the shura reached its verdict, a group of villagers came to the dark storage room and took her away to be stoned.

"She knew what was going to happen to her," Assan said softly. "She was screaming and sobbing."

Amina's paternal uncle, Mohammad Azim, said he watched as the villagers forced Amina down a muddy path toward a patch of soft earth along a riverbank surrounded by stones, a few yards from the edge of the village.

It was a beautiful spot, shaded by an enormous tree and offering a charming view of the village clinging to the mountainside.

It was also an ideal place for a stoning.

"They dug a hole in the ground right here," Azim said, pointing to a spot in the clearing six days later. "Then they buried Amina up to her waist, with her arms pinned by her side."

Azim said Amina's hair was covered in a head scarf, and that she was crying in terror as nearly a hundred men gathered in a circle around her and began throwing small rocks at her head.

"I couldn't watch for more than a few minutes," Azim said. Instead, he said, he walked up to Amina's parents' house and waited with them in silence during the two hours it took to kill her.

Several villagers and Amina's mother said that they, too, believe she was stoned. And a few said they had seen the bloody hole after she was removed from it.

But no one else would admit to witnessing the actual stoning, much less participating in it. And the ground where Amina was allegedly buried to her waist showed little sign of disturbance six days after her death -- possibly because, as Azim and other villagers contend, they had refilled the hole and then the river had flooded over it, or possibly because the stoning never happened.

Several other villagers, including Amina's uncle, Hashem, tell a very different story.

Hashem said the villagers handed Amina over to her uncles, including himself and Azim. Their original intention was to hang her, Hashem said. But as they were leading her away, they became increasingly angry and started to beat her with their fists.

"It was dark," he said. "All of us were striking her, and then she fainted and we saw that she was on the ground and not breathing. Maybe she had a heart attack."

Whatever the means of her death, Amina's parents said her bruised corpse was returned to them sometime between afternoon and evening prayers that day.

Amina's mother, Nessa, said she did not grieve.

"My daughter was a criminal and a sinner who brought dishonor on my name," Nessa said hotly several days later. "And I should be blamed for her death, not anyone else, because I told my tribe they could kill her. I forgave them for spilling her blood."...

If Amina had been allowed to live, Nessa added, the shame of it would have forced Nessa to leave the only home she had ever known and a valley in which her family had lived for generations.

"But now I can walk everywhere in the village with my head high. . . . I'm happy. Extremely, extremely happy," she shouted. The tone in her voice betrayed no joy.

Then Nessa covered her face with her hands....

Amina's father Aslam, however, was released from police custody in Faizabad after a night of questioning, on grounds that he was not directly responsible.

Just before embarking on the long walk back to Gazon, he sat on a metal chair in a room in the police station, reflecting on all that had happened in the last several days.

Unlike the feelings of his wife Nessa, Aslam's anger at Amina had by now given way to sorrow.

"I feel so sad for her. She was so young," he said, as his eyes grew glassy with tears. "I really miss her now. . . . I will miss her voice, and our conversations in the evenings."

There was much he wished he could go back and change. "If only she had told me that she did not want to go back to her husband," he said. "I would have done something about it. I would have counseled her."

But he said he harbored no doubt that she deserved to die after she admitted to committing adultery.

"There was no option. This is what Islam commands us."

[PacHead]

These "honor" killings are happening all over the world, in practically every country.

Those "tiny minority" of extremists sure do get around.

[dcmacdaddy]

Yeah, I get to use this quote again.


Yes, you have proven you know how to use the bold tags. So what?
Care to actually say anything about what YOU think about this article?

[OldManMac]

We honor women differently in the U. S.
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

AMERICAN RAPE STATISTICS

Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.
In 1995, 354,670 women were the victims of a rape or sexual assault. (NationalCrime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)

Over the last two years, more than 787,000 women were the victim of a rape or sexual assault. (National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S.Department of Justice, 1996.)

The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)

SILENT VICTIMS :

One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and the fear of reprisal from the assailant.

Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

In 1994-1995, only 251,560 rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials -- less than one in every three. (National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)

An overwhelming majority of rape service agencies believe that public education about rape, and expanded counseling and advocacy services for rape victims, would be effective in increasing the willingness of victims to report rapes to the police. (Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center with Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center.)

LIVING IN FEAR :

According to the U.S. Department of Justice: (All statistics are taken from: Violenceagainst Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.

31% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger.

68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.

At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.

In 47% of rapes, the victim sustained injuries other than rape injuries.

75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack.

NOT JUST A FAMILY MATTER :

Family violence and abuse are among the most prevalent forms of interpersonal violence against women and young children -- both boys and girls. The sexual abuse of a child should never be "just a family matter," but many children are afraid to report an incident to the police because the abusers are too often a family friend or relative.

Approximately one-third of all juvenile victims of sexual abuse cases are children younger than 6 years of age. (Violence and the Family, Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family, 1996.)

According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims are under age 18; one in six are under age 12. (Child Rape Victims, 1992. U.S. Department of Justice.)

FACE OF AMERICA :

About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

About half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution; half are in the upper two-thirds. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

There were 71 forcible rapes per 100,000 females reported to United States law enforcement agencies in 1996. 2

Data from the National Women's Study, a longitudinal telephone survey of a national household probability sample of women at least 18 years of age, show 683,000 women forcibly raped each year and that 84% of rape victims did not report the offense to the police.3

Using Uniform Crime Report data for 1994 and 1995, the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that of rape victims who reported the offense to law enforcement, about 40% were under the age of 18, and 15% were younger than 12.4

In a national survey 27.7% of college women reported a sexual experience since the age of fourteen that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating aggressive behavior which met the legal definition of rape.5

The National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that for 1992-1993, 92% of rapes were committed by known assailants.1 About half of all rapes and sexual assaults against women are committed by friends and acquaintances, and 26% are by intimate partners.1

Risk factors for perpetrating sexual violence include: early sexual experience (both forced and voluntary),6 adherence by men to sex role stereotyping,7,8 negative attitudes of men towards women,6,9,,10,11,12, alcohol consumption,8,13 acceptance of rape myths by men.8,9,12,14,15

Non-forceful verbal resistance and lack of resistance are associated with rape completion.1,6

The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.17

Non-genital physical injuries occur in approximately 40% of completed rape cases.18 As many as 3% of all rape cases have non-genital injuries requiring overnight hospitalization.19

Victims of rape often manifest long-term symptoms of chronic headaches,18,20fatigue20, sleep disturbance20, recurrent nausea,20 decreased appetite,21 eating disorders,22 menstrual pain,18 sexual dysfunction,23 and suicide attempts.21 In a longitudinal study, sexual assault was found to increase the odds of substance abuse by a factor of 2.5.24

Estimates of the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases resulting from rape range from 3.6% to 30%.18,22 HIV transmission risk rate from rape is estimated at 1 in 500,22,25 although a few probable cases have been documented in Sweden and Great Britain. 26,27

Victims of marital or date rape are 11 times more likely to be clinically depressed, and 6 times more likely to experience social phobia than are non-victims. Psychological problems are still evident in cases as long as 15 years after the assault.28

Fatalities occur in about 0.1% of all rape cases.29,30

A study examining the use of health services over a five year period by female members of a health maintenance program found that the number of visits to physicians by rape victims increased 56% in the year following the crime, compared to a 2% utilization increase by non-victims.31

The National Public Services Research Institute estimates the lifetime cost for each rape with physical injuries which occurred in 1987 to be $60,000.32

[PacHead]

What's up with the smokescreen ?

Everytime somebody mentions something about islam, somebody comes along and posts something that has nothing to do with the topic at all.

These honor killings are barbaric, primitive and disgusting, irregardless of any rape statistics in the USA. On the subject of rape, since karlg brought it up, I'm sure there's plenty of that in islamic countries also, the honor killings are just an added bonus for all the women.

[Millennium]

This doesn't seem to actually fit the definition of an honor killing. Last I checked, honor killings dealt with unmarried women, and were usually committed by her biological family. This case deals with a married woman, killed by her husband. This does not make it any less horrific (or if it does, then not by much), but honor killings are barbaric enough that they do not need to be inflated further.

As for the rape statistics, why is rape only wrong when women and children are the victims, and when men are the perpetrators? I say bring on the statistics for male victims, and for female perpetrators. The numbers will only go up -which is a great shame indeed- but it's time we stopped looking at rape and domestic violence as 'men's issues' and woke up to the fact that anyone can commit it, and anyone can be victimized. The sexism that has colored our views on these matters until now doesn't just hurt women.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Care to actually say anything about what YOU think about this article?

I also found myself thinking of all the times vmarks criticized someone for a post-and-run without actually making a comment on the story.

Is it discusting what people can do to each other? Yes. Unfortunately, we don't know what vmarks' intentions for posting this story are since he declined to comment. I can only assume he is trying to say that Islam and all arabs are evil because of the interpretations and actions of a few.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by vmarks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050501563.html
[/b]

It's strange that while you quote so much, you failed to produce where it happened, namely in Afghanistan, the now US-freed country, the country that experience over a million killed people through the hands of russian forces, and another high number through the following civil-war between the different factions of mujahideens, the socalled "freedom-fighters" that were equipped, recruited and financed by the US, Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia.

You also seem to forget that in order to help in ending the civil-war the US and Pakistan decided to support the socalled pupils, the Taliban, which in most part of Afghanistan ended the civil-war but also brought in the semi-literate islamic radicals that developed and forced a sort of ultra-wahabism upon Afghanistan, and which fell on fruitable ground in an environment where due to decades-longs wars and civil-wars, education as well as literacy was pretty much non-existent.

That population believed without hesitating the doctrine of the Taliban, thinking the socalled pupils are really fully educated religious mullahs, there are a whole slew of areas where the Taliban distorted the quranic message and the population of Afghanistan believed it due to non-existent education and literacy. It will be a long way for Kabul's government to reach out to the rest of Afghanistan and to undo the effects of the wars and the Taliban.

Here is a Quran-excerpt that deals extensively with adultery:

Surah 24:1-26
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
24:1 A sura that we have sent down, and we have decreed as law. We have revealed in it clear revelations, that you may take heed.
24:2 The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.*
24:3 The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
24:4 Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
24:5 If they repent afterwards and reform, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
24:6 As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, then the testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth.
24:7 The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying.
24:8 She shall be considered innocent if she swears by GOD four times that he is a liar.
24:9 The fifth oath shall incur GOD's wrath upon her if he was telling the truth.
24:10 This is GOD's grace and mercy towards you. GOD is Redeemer, Most Wise.
24:11 A gang among you produced a big lie.* Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.
24:12 When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."
24:13 Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.
24:14 If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy in this world and in the Hereafter, you would have suffered a great retribution because of this incident.
24:15 You fabricated it with your own tongues, and the rest of you repeated it with your mouths without proof. You thought it was simple, when it was, according to GOD, gross.
24:16 When you heard it, you should have said, "We will not repeat this. Glory be to You. This is a gross falsehood."
24:17 GOD admonishes you that you shall never do it again, if you are believers.
24:18 GOD thus explains the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Wise.
24:19 Those who love to see immorality spread among the believers have incurred a painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. GOD knows, while you do not know.
24:20 GOD showers you with His grace and mercy. GOD is Most Kind towards the believers, Most Merciful.
24:21 O you who believe, do not follow the steps of Satan. Anyone who follows the steps of Satan should know that he advocates evil and vice. If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy, none of you would have been purified. But GOD purifies whomever He wills. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
24:22 Those among you who are blessed with resources and wealth shall be charitable towards their relatives, the poor, and those who have immigrated for the sake of GOD. They shall treat them with kindness and tolerance; do you not love to attain GOD's forgiveness? GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
24:23 Surely, those who falsely accuse married women who are pious believers have incurred condemnation in this life and in the Hereafter; they have incurred a horrendous retribution.
24:24 The day will come when their own tongues, hands, and feet will bear witness to everything they had done.
24:25 On that day, GOD will requite them fully for their works, and they will find out that GOD is the Truth.
24:26 The bad women for the bad men, and the bad men for the bad women, and the good women for the good men, and the good men for the good women. The latter are innocent of such accusations. They have attained forgiveness and a generous reward.

There you have it, the punishment for adulterers is equal for women and men, namely hundred lashes, but only if four witnesses are brought up. If only the husband testifies against his wife or the other way around, he/she can do so, if he/she swears four times in the name of God that she/he is saying the truth and swering a fifth time that if he/she lies God's wrath should be upon her/him. That also can be coutered by the accused with equal means...

But even then the worst punishment is hundred lashes and not death.

There is another Quran-verse about adultery which seems harsher:

Sura 4:
4:15 Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep them in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.*
4:16 The couple who commits adultery shall be punished.* If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
4:17 Repentance is acceptable by GOD from those who fall in sin out of ignorance, then repent immediately thereafter. GOD redeems them. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
4:18 Not acceptable is the repentance of those who commit sins until death comes to them, then say, "Now I repent." Nor is it acceptable from those who die as disbelievers. For these, we have prepared a painful retribution.

So according to that most harsh Quran-verses the couple, two women with each other, that committed adultery, should, if four witnesses could be brought up, closed together into one and the same house until they die therein or God opens them up an exit.

But if they repent and reform then they shall be left alone as God is allforgiving.

Nowhere in the Quran is made any distinction between adultering men or women, and nowhere is the punishment "stoning", and more important even in the most harsh context, the punishment can be avoided if the couple repents and stops doing the adultery from then on.

The requirement of four independent witnesses as well as the possibility for repenance should make it highly unlikely that anyone would actually be punished for adultery, at least according to the Quran.

Unfotunately though it's not only the Quran that those radical islamists draw from but also from a legal system called "sharia", which was derived from the Quran as well as the highly unreliable and open-for-political-abuse-"Hadiths", and as well as consensus among the scholars. In Afghanistan, part of Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Pakistan the most radical version of "sharia" is used which mostly contradicts basic quranic messages, which proves why it is so popular in uneducated areas.

Taliesin

P.S.: Interesting enough though is that the rule of stoning people that committed adultery stems from the Thora and not from the Quran.

[Eynstyn]

The people in the USA who know is death penalty for murder they do the murder and get exection.

The muslim women who know is death penalty for coochie with neighbor they do coochie and get exection.

Is no more bad there than here. Follow the law or you pay, no?

[Big Mac]

Out of curiosity, what is your native language?

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Out of curiosity, what is your native language?

English. I am an American. How about you?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

The people in the USA who know is death penalty for murder they do the murder and get exection.

The muslim women who know is death penalty for coochie with neighbor they do coochie and get exection.

Is no more bad there than here. Follow the law or you pay, no?

Your first language is English, and this is how you post?

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Your first language is English, and this is how you post?

Is macnn only for perfect english?
Is complain from somebody?
Is bigots on me for bad english?
Why not say, "good for you try to learn and practice on great macnn, eynstyn!"
Is breaking rule for family share computer?
Is breaking rule for ask other to write?
Is breaking rule for say how ever I want?

I have reason for things. I must keep some things very private. Others no need read or write eynstyn if they have problem with me. I say good things on macnn. I follow laws. No problem, yes? Sometimes eynstyn say thing people need hearing. Ok?

I no want to leave but when you say I must go then good bye.

But is not fair.

[demograph68]

The punishment is harsh but then again, it's no secret what the consequences were to her. Though it does seem sexist to kill her. If the husband cheated, would he have been killed as well?

[von Wrangell]

:applause: for Taliesen.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

English. I am an American. How about you?

Peter Venkman: Where in the hell are you from anyway, Johnny?
Janosz: The upper vest side.

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by demograph68

The punishment is harsh but then again, it's no secret what the consequences were to her. Though it does seem sexist to kill her. If the husband cheated, would he have been killed as well?

Are we arguing which system of laws dealing with adultery is more to your liking?

The muslim way is their way. Men have certain freedoms and obligations. Women have others. I am in favor of anyone being able to freely choose their own belief system, or maybe more accurately, being able to follow the belief that seems right to them.

How can any of you say your religion or even lack of belief is more right than someone else? The Holy Book of each major religion (if I understand correctly) maintains that IT and IT ALONE is the truth. Any and everything else is a lie. It's like political candidates, almost.

"I'm telling the truth and the other is lying!" LOLOLOL

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Peter Venkman: Where in the hell are you from anyway, Johnny?
Janosz: The upper vest side.

=============


=============

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

So according to that most harsh Quran-verses the couple, two women with each other, that committed adultery, should, if four witnesses could be brought up, closed together into one and the same house until they die therein or God opens them up an exit.

But if they repent and reform then they shall be left alone as God is allforgiving.

Nowhere in the Quran is made any distinction between adultering men or women, and nowhere is the punishment "stoning", and more important even in the most harsh context, the punishment can be avoided if the couple repents and stops doing the adultery from then on.

The requirement of four independent witnesses as well as the possibility for repenance should make it highly unlikely that anyone would actually be punished for adultery, at least according to the Quran.

There are many good things about this post. The best part of it is what follows:

Originally Posted by taliesin

Unfotunately though it's not only the Quran that those radical islamists draw from but also from a legal system called "sharia", which was derived from the Quran as well as the highly unreliable and open-for-political-abuse-"Hadiths", and as well as consensus among the scholars. In Afghanistan, part of Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Pakistan the most radical version of "sharia" is used which mostly contradicts basic quranic messages, which proves why it is so popular in uneducated areas.

Taliesin

P.S.: Interesting enough though is that the rule of stoning people that committed adultery stems from the Thora and not from the Quran.

The Hadiths are the recounted stories that tell us about Mohammed's life. Some of them are 'strong' hadiths and said to be verified, and some are 'weak' or 'mursal'.

Most Muslims see a hadith-based interpretation of the Qur'an as the only legitimate way to read the scripture. Since it is the words and deeds of Muhammad, the authority of the hadith is founded on the Qur’an itself: the Qur’an repeatedly exhorts believers to imitate Muhammad, since he is “is neither astray nor being misled” (Qur’an 53:2). Muslims are to “obey Allah, and obey the Messenger” (Qur’an 4:59). For “verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example (uswa hasana) for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day” (Qur’an 33:21). Those who disobey Muhammad are headed for hell: “And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell - a hapless journey's end!” (Qur’an 4:115). Muhammad is in Islamic theology al-insan al-kamil: the Perfect Man.

The New Encyclopedia of Islam says that the hadith are “the basis, second only to the Koran, for Islamic law (shari’ah).” Islamic apologist Sayyed Hossein Nasr has called the hadith a “basic aspect of the whole structure of Islam” and blamed the questioning of its authority on that ever-handy bogeyman, “Western Orientalists.” Another Islamic apologist popular in the West, Akbar S. Ahmed, explains that “so great is the respect and affection the Prophet commands that his very sayings, hadith, are the source of wisdom and social practice in the Muslim world.”

So Taliesin's telling us that the Hadith are unreliable and open for political abuse may be true, but it is certainly a minority opinion.

Sharia is another problem. Sharia courts have been established in Canada. The Muslim Brotherhood (an organization that is the intellectual father of Al-Qaeda and Hamas) is an organization dedicated to spreading Sharia to all countries of the world. Last year Muhamad Madi Othman 'Akef took over as the Brotherhood's “supreme guide.” According to the Muslim Brotherhood website last year 'Akef discussed the coming conversion of Europe and America to Islam: “I have complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America, because Islam has logic and a mission. The Europeans and the Americans will come into the bosom of Islam out of conviction.”

Disappointingly, the US has begun to meet with the Muslim Brotherhood- reported in the US News and World Report of April 25, 2005: U.S. intelligence officials have been meeting with members of the Brotherhood and one unidentified source called them, “probably more a part of the solution than a part of the problem.” Some Washington think tanks have also begun to float this in the nation's capital.

So this belief that Islam commands inhumane killings for crimes of passion is based on beliefs held by a majority. Those beliefs, that system of 'law', is intended to spread if the Muslim Brotherhood and like-minded folks have their way, and replace existing rule of law with a law that Taliesin calls "popular in uneducated areas."

Displacing an existing government's rule of law with what Taliesin calls "the most radical version of "sharia" which mostly contradicts basic quranic messages", paving the way for brutal killings like the one in the first post, these are disturbing notions.

Would that Taliesin could by himself convince the "uneducated" people of "Afghanistan, part of Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Pakistan" (I should add to the list Sudan, Palestinians, and others) make arguments from the Qur'an and Sunnah convince jihad terrorists to stop waging war in the name of Islam? Jihad terrorists use the Qur'an and Sunnah quite effectively all over the world to recruit Muslims to their ranks. Then moderate Muslims come along and tell us that the Qur'an and Sunnah, properly understood, are benign and peaceful. That the Hadiths and sharia contradict Qur'an.

Taliesin, thank you for not being a sharia apologist. Now how to go about convincing the "uneducated" people of "Afghanistan, part of Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Pakistan" (I should add to the list Sudan, Palestinians, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and others) ?

PS some parts of this reply were informed by a debate between Robert Spencer and Khaleel Mohammed held in http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=17727

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

:applause: for Taliesen.

Thanks, but I have to admit I made two minor mistakes in that post due to a misleading english translation. In the latter part I quoted the Quran from sura 4 that had the harsher punishment for adultery namely the closing in of the adultering couple into the same house until they die or until God opens them an exit. At least if the couple doesn't repent and reform.

But the term adultery is wrong in the case of sura 4, the arabic word for adultery is "zina", but the arabic word in sura 4 is "fahisha", which obviously means in that context homosexual activity between two women, which should be punished with closing in to houses until death reaches them unless they repent and reform or God opens them an exit.

Then the next verse makes much more sense, and it shows that the translation I used there is wrong in that aspect. In the next sentence, it says then "if two of you", obviously meaning "if two of you men do "fahisha" with each other" then they should be punished, meaning also and equal as the women in the previous verse, and off course with the equal requirement for four witnesses. Then the next sentence says "If they repent and reform, leave them alone since God is most merciful...".

So, sura 4:15- 4:18 doesn't even deal with adultery but with homosexual activities of two women or two men and the procedure of finding them guilty, punishing and accepting repentance and reform...

So 24:1-26 is the one definitive source for an islamic legislation regarding adultery between a man and a woman, and in that verses the punishment for adultery are hundred lashes, but only if four independent witnesses can be brought up, or if only the husband or wife is the witness the complex procedure laid down therein has to be followed...

If a man and a woman are found guilty of adultery, ie four independent witnesses are brought up, and the punishment is over, then the adulterer can only marry an adulteress and an adulteress can only marry an adulterer. If one or both of the guilty adulterer were married with someone else then divorce is the consequence..

But there are also punishments for people that accuse other people of adultery without being able to bring up four independent witnesses.

So it's in reality very rare that someone could actually be found guilty of adultery, but even then the punishment is not death, but lashes and for both, men and women, equally, so the folks from Afghanistan who have killed that adultering woman have commited a sinful crime.

Taliesin

[BoomStick]

Then these sharias are committing grave sins aginst their God.

What is the penalty for wanten blasphemy by a cleric leading good followers of the faith away?

[Millennium]

I no want to leave but when you say I must go then good bye.

But is not fair.

I never said you had to leave, but if you want people to take you seriously then you are going to need to improve your writing. Good rhetoric doesn't make a bad argument good, but it can make a good argument bad. Non-native speakers get something of a break on this -after all, they're still learning- but you claimed that English was your first language.

Actually, now that I think about it, I have a question to ask: are you by any chance deaf? I've been looking more over the pattern of your words, and it almost seems as though you're mapping English words onto the grammar of American Sign Language. If this is true, then I'm confused: why would you claim English as your first language? Are you not counting ASL as a language? Many hearing people have that misconception, but I've never seen a deaf person do so. Then again, much of my experience with deaf people (actually 'Deaf people', I suppose I should say) comes from my time at RIT, which hosts the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, and that probably skews my sense of demographics. As for myself, I'm hearing, and to call my ASL poor would be an understatement; I really should have done more with it while I was there.

If in fact you are deaf, and your first language is actually ASL, then I sincerely apologize; I did not know. There are several other Deaf members of these forums that you might be interested in contacting.

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by Millennium

I never said you had to leave, but if you want people to take you seriously then you are going to need to improve your writing. Good rhetoric doesn't make a bad argument good, but it can make a good argument bad. Non-native speakers get something of a break on this -after all, they're still learning- but you claimed that English was your first language.

Actually, now that I think about it, I have a question to ask: are you by any chance deaf? I've been looking more over the pattern of your words, and it almost seems as though you're mapping English words onto the grammar of American Sign Language. If this is true, then I'm confused: why would you claim English as your first language? Are you not counting ASL as a language? Many hearing people have that misconception, but I've never seen a deaf person do so. Then again, much of my experience with deaf people (actually 'Deaf people', I suppose I should say) comes from my time at RIT, which hosts the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, and that probably skews my sense of demographics. As for myself, I'm hearing, and to call my ASL poor would be an understatement; I really should have done more with it while I was there.

If in fact you are deaf, and your first language is actually ASL, then I sincerely apologize; I did not know. There are several other Deaf members of these forums that you might be interested in contacting.

You sensitive man. Thank you. I prefer keep info secret. Sorry is important to me. All is good with you. I share computer. Please no more questions. Ok? I follow rules. Thank you.

You sound like Robbie Robertson, Christian Science man. PM only if true. Thank you.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

You sensitive man. Thank you. I prefer keep info secret. Sorry is important to me. All is good with you. I share computer. Please no more questions. Ok? I follow rules. Thank you.

You sound like Robbie Robertson, Christian Science man. PM only if true. Thank you.

If you wish to keep your unusual writing techniques a secret, then that's your right I suppose, but you can't blame anybody for being curious as to why you write as you do (kind of reminds me of Yoda), since you state that english is your native language.

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by PacHead

If you wish to keep your unusual writing techniques a secret, then that's your right I suppose, but you can't blame anybody for being curious as to why you write as you do (kind of reminds me of Yoda), since you state that english is your native language.

You have good posts but I tell ole pigeon he to much star wars. Maybe you to.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

You have good posts but I tell ole pigeon he to much star wars. Maybe you to.

The first three Star Wars (Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi) = Awesome

The last two episodes I saw = Very disappointing

I will be seeing the latest one though, since it is the very last one, and it better be good.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

P.S.: Interesting enough though is that the rule of stoning people that committed adultery stems from the Thora and not from the Quran.

And the Bible.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

You sound like Robbie Robertson, Christian Science man. PM only if true. Thank you.

Robbie Robertson? The Canadian musician? Sorry; I'm not him. All right; if you don't want any more questions then I won't ask any. You haven't broken any rules, but if you insist on writing this way then it was a mistake to claim that you're a native speaker of English.

These boards generally cut non-native English speakers a lot of slack -after all, they're still learning- but a native speaker of English who doesn't seem to be putting effort into his writing doesn't tend to be taken seriously. Good debates are about more than logic; certainly logical arguments are important, but the way those arguments are presented is also important, because they can indicate how much thought was put into those arguments. Good debates require good logic, but they also require good rhetoric, and although good rhetoric won't make an otherwise-bad argument good, bad rhetoric can make an otherwise-good argument seem very poor.

The other thing to worry about with this goes back to the non-native speakers. People come to these boards from all over the world, and some are stronger when it comes to English literacy than others. It's important to make sure that your writing is clear, so that they can still follow what you're trying to say. Even native and otherwise-fluent speakers can appreciate not having to mentally correct many errors in someone's text.

I realize that I write at a higher level than most. That's just how I sound; in real life several people have told me that I talk like a book. I'm not trying to be pretentious. I do, however, try to make sure that what I write is still clear, and not too bogged down in technical or obscure jargon. This isn't trying to be condescending; it's trying to be clear. Plenty of people here disagree with me, and that's a good thing, but they do tend to take me seriously, and I like to think it's because of this, not because I look like a moderator (which, by the way, I am not; I moderate some of the other MacNN boards, but not this one). I'm certainly not the best-loved moderator here at MacNN, and I suspect I'm pretty far down the list, because I have a tendency to get overemotional. I deserve what I get as far as that goes; I really do need to rein in my temper more. But whether or not I'm well-liked, I'm seen as intelligent, and it's because of the way I write. It's not that people see good grammar and think 'hey, this person has good grammar so he must be smart'; it's that I make sure that what I say is as easy to follow and understand as I can make it. People come away knowing what I'm thinking, and generally I think they come away with the impression that I put a lot of thought into my words. As a result, though people often disagree with me, they don't usually just write me off as a moron or a lunatic, and that's good enough for me.

I try not to be arrogant about this. I really do. I don't demand more from someone than they're capable of giving. But behind your words in particular, I'm reading a lot more intelligence than you're letting on, and when you said that you're a native speaker it only confirmed my suspicions. You're capable of doing much better than this, and I don't mean that as a matter of practice and improvement; you could do it right now if you chose. I don't know if this is some kind of project (it might be; one of my wife's college friends did her undergraduate thesis as a linguistic study of 1337-speak) or something else, but you are projecting an air of not just ignorance but willful ignorance. This isn't endearing.

I guess it comes down to something I call "respecting one's own opinions". Whether or not it's a matter of actual respect is debatable, but the metaphor holds incredibly well. You do it the same way you'd respect anyone else's opinions: by giving them careful thought and consideration. The only real difference is when you do it: you respect other people's opinions when you read them, and you respect your own opinions when you write them. And just as with any other aspect of a person, if you don't respect your own then can anyone else really be expected to respect it?