[bubblewrap]

How many aircraft have been hijacked by Middle Easterners?
How many airline passangers have died at the hands of Middle Easterners?
Or Muslim in particular.
There is a trend here.

[James L]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

How many aircraft have been hijacked by Middle Easterners?
How many airline passangers have died at the hands of Middle Easterners?
Or Muslim in particular.
There is a trend here.

Yup, and it is called paranoia.

The percentage of flights hijacked and passengers killed due to hijacking, versus the number of flights flown worldwide each day, is miniscule.

I would bet serious money that more people are killed due to mechanical failures in the aviation industry each year than due to hijackers.

Shouldn't you expand your focus to include all the American, European, and Asian mechanics and parts manufactuers who allow this to happen?

Nope, sorry, you won't pull me into your racist fear mongering.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

And this news report represents the usual level of treatment accorded to citizens in Islamic countries, if you were not aware. It may not comport with your world view, but that does not make the truth any less truthful.

How certain are you this is actually the case?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

How many aircraft have been hijacked by Middle Easterners?
How many airline passangers have died at the hands of Middle Easterners?
Or Muslim in particular.
There is a trend here.

Of course there is a trend.

Let us follow it historicaly, say, to the beginning of the Century? You know? When oil was discovered as something that would rule the world?

And let us make certain that these terrorists (the fools on the line) are all very rich oil entrepreneurs...

So that it would "make sense".

What you report is only a thin superficiality of a much bigger problem.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

The tollerant, peacful islam at work.

You should read a few decent books once in a while. It helps you develop more informed opinions AND better spelling.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by James L

Yup, and it is called paranoia.

The percentage of flights hijacked and passengers killed due to hijacking, versus the number of flights flown worldwide each day, is miniscule.

I would bet serious money that more people are killed due to mechanical failures in the aviation industry each year than due to hijackers.

Shouldn't you expand your focus to include all the American, European, and Asian mechanics and parts manufactuers who allow this to happen?

Nope, sorry, you won't pull me into your racist fear mongering.

As a retired engineer for a well known aircraft manufacturer, I can state that most aircraft deaths are caused by pilot error followed by design/mechanical failures with a few random deaths caused by terrorists, war, ground screwups, etc. I would suggest that you are at higher risk from regulators than terrorists. (The government says that anyone who obeys a regulator's whim is not liable as he/she is following a government directive.) sam

[bubblewrap]

Umm yeah, spelling.


I know the statistics well. I fly for a living.
Pan Am over Scotland, Egypt Air just off the top of my head.

I'm paid to be paranoid. I have 30 people to keep alive on my commuter.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by James L

[snip]

...by your logic I should be afraid to sit beside an American on a flight too. I'm not though, as I don't paint everyone by the same brush.

I am going to requote your last sentence just so you can see how silly it is:

So, you are trying to tell me that a plane, and its passengers, are threatened simply because there is a person of middle eastern heritage on it?

Wow... do you jump at shadows too?

I doubt anyone could so grossly misread a point unwittingly. I'll be very pedantic this time. James, I asked before, which regional group is most responsible for the hijacking of airlines? Would that be Americans, Asians, Europeans, or would it just possibly be middle easterners? Come on, you know perfectly well what the answer is. Now does that mean that I prejudge Arabs/Muslims I come across as terrorists? Absolutely not. It simply means that the probability is high that the next terrorist attack will be perpetrated by an adherent of Islam.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Umm yeah, spelling.


I know the statistics well. I fly for a living.
Pan Am over Scotland, Egypt Air just off the top of my head.

I'm paid to be paranoid. I have 30 people to keep alive on my commuter.

Egypt Air was probably listed as pilot error (or suicide) Pan Am was the girl friend of the terrorist?, not an Arab, some Airbus stuff as autopilot design (overrides pilot input), two 747s on runway (speeding on the runway), tail falling off over New York (design error), and 747 exploding fuel tank (design/FAA error as air conditioning heat dumped to fuel followed by rapid ascent is STUPID, pilot error that should have had a warning to pilot). sam

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I challenge you to show me an example from this past century where Christians and Jews have done anything similar to this in the name of Christianity or Judaism, with 500 men chasing a man and executing him.

I suspect that as a victim of hatred, you resolved to lower yourself to the level of those you abject.

History is full of people running after a few individuals because of a difference in belief.Why limit yourself to Islam, Christianity and Judaism? Why limit yourself to the last Century only? What frigging difference does that make? How is this Century so much better than any others, considering civilization started 2000 years ago? How is this Century so much better that Christianity and Judaism look so good compared to Islam?

Funny enough, doesn't that coincide also with a high period of colonialism and exploitation of oil? And how about every situations where people were killed for their looks? How about the KKK? The Protestant English and the Catholic Irish?

The Jews deserve to be saved, but not put on a pedestal compared to the rest of humanity. And yet, your are pawns for the oil consumers, and not muuch else, the rest being rethoric. Your are tenants of convenience.

And here you are, with your high standing attitude of superiority.

I pity you.

I pity you for justifying brutality that can always escalate the violence to justify more violence.

I am sorry you had to suffer so much that you had to make sure revenge would be the only thing that could make sense. There is no excuse for terrorism, yet what you are doing is just as low.

The wise man said: "Man builds his House according to his ambition".

There is your home; what have you done with it?

And who is the real landlord of Israel?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I doubt anyone could so grossly misread a point unwittingly. I'll be very pedantic this time.

So you have to be pedantic to be clearer? Such a display from someone who tries to show up as "articulate" turns more pretentious than anything else...

James, I asked before, which regional group is most responsible for the hijacking of airlines? Would that be Americans, Asians, Europeans, or would it just possibly be middle easterners? Come on, you know perfectly well what the answer is. Now does that mean that I prejudge Arabs/Muslims I come across as terrorists? Absolutely not. It simply means that the probability is high that the next terrorist attack will be perpetrated by an adherent of Islam.

And let's look at the History of that region before you comment further on "probabilities". Otherwise, your point is devoided of any significance.

aaah. I forgot. I am still on "ignore" am I not?

[James L]

Originally Posted by SVass

As a retired engineer for a well known aircraft manufacturer, I can state that most aircraft deaths are caused by pilot error followed by design/mechanical failures with a few random deaths caused by terrorists, war, ground screwups, etc. I would suggest that you are at higher risk from regulators than terrorists. (The government says that anyone who obeys a regulator's whim is not liable as he/she is following a government directive.) sam

Fair enough, and an opinion based on industry knowledge.

Thanks,

James

[bubblewrap]

So we are to ignore the threat of hijacking deaths by muslims.
OK.


But this isn't about the airline industry.
It's about the demonstrated tolerance of one mans opinion against islam.
And the consequences suffered because of it.

In the Christian world you can get a grant to compose art the critisizes Christianity.
Write a book critisizing isalm and get a price on your head.
That's how it works.
Period.
Sanitize it all you want, until there are serious changes in islam, all muslims are suspect.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

So we are to ignore the threat of hijacking deaths by muslims.
OK.


But this isn't about the airline industry.
It's about the demonstrated tolerance of one mans opinion against islam.
And the consequences suffered because of it.

In the Christian world you can get a grant to compose art the critisizes Christianity.
Write a book critisizing isalm and get a price on your head.
That's how it works.
Period.
Sanitize it all you want, until there are serious changes in islam, all muslims are suspect.

And so is your ignorance/denial.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

So we are to ignore the threat of hijacking deaths by muslims.
OK.

In the Christian world you can get a grant to compose art the critisizes Christianity.
Write a book critisizing isalm and get a price on your head.
That's how it works.
Period.
Sanitize it all you want, until there are serious changes in islam, all muslims are suspect.

A terrorist can strap on a bomb and board a bus or our government can charge you with "conspiracy to commit a crime" and prove that you did something irrelevant which is sufficient for conviction. We are barely past imprisonment for "consensual sodomy" so do not complain about religious crimes. sam

[bubblewrap]

Ahh, the ever popular explod-o-vest.
Quite all the rave in islamic countries.

See how well homosexuality goes over with islam too.
They love gays.

I'm Captain Cunnilingus. Have yet to serve time.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

And so is your ignorance/denial.

Denial of what?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Ahh, the ever popular explod-o-vest.
Quite all the rave in islamic countries.

See how well homosexuality goes over with islam too.
They love gays.

I'm Captain Cunnilingus. Have yet to serve time.

"pits"

"pats"

"pots"

[bubblewrap]

You have yet to address this:
In the Christian world you can get a grant to compose art the critisizes Christianity.
Write a book critisizing isalm and get a price on your head.

Remember Salaman Rushdie?
Also a moslem.

The novel was banned in India and South Africa and burned on the streets of Bradford, Yorkshire. When Ayatollah Khomeini called on all zealous Muslims to execute the writer and the publishers of the book, Rushdie was forced into hiding. Also an aide to Khomeini offered a million-dollar reward for Rushdie's death. In 1993 Rushdie's Norwegian publisher William Nygaard was wounded in an attack outside his house. In 1997 the reward was doubled, and the next year the highest Iranian state prosecutor Morteza Moqtadale renewed the death sentence. During this period of fatwa violent protest in India, Pakistan, and Egypt caused several deaths. In 1990 Rushdie published an essay In Good Faith to appease his critics and issued an apology in which he reaffirmed his respect for Islam. However, Iranian clerics did not repudiate their death threat.

Yeah, peaceful.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

You have yet to address this:
In the Christian world you can get a grant to compose art the critisizes Christianity.
Write a book critisizing isalm and get a price on your head.

Remember Salaman Rushdie?
Also a moslem.


Yeah, peaceful.

Anecdotal.

Write a book about Nixon, or Oliver North.

These are particulars that attract a lot of attention when you try to do magc tricks. Khomeiny is not better or worse than any Western demagogue. His language is peculiar to say the least and his power to murder is as strong, if not weaker than that of any Corporate scheme to take over the resources by corrupting any local government.

Rushdie is but one episode of abuse in Human History, regardless of the nation or the religion.

Stop taking yourself for better; Fundamentalist Islamist are not much different than any Capitalistic venture in foreign Nations where it is required to grease a few hands to corrupt further.

Also, you might want to try to look at books put in the index by Christianity, or any other culture, because they were not aligned with acceptable parameters.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

I suspect that as a victim of hatred, you resolved to lower yourself to the level of those you abject.

History is full of people running after a few individuals because of a difference in belief.Why limit yourself to Islam, Christianity and Judaism? Why limit yourself to the last Century only? What frigging difference does that make? How is this Century so much better than any others, considering civilization started 2000 years ago? How is this Century so much better that Christianity and Judaism look so good compared to Islam?

Funny enough, doesn't that coincide also with a high period of colonialism and exploitation of oil? And how about every situations where people were killed for their looks? How about the KKK? The Protestant English and the Catholic Irish?

The Jews deserve to be saved, but not put on a pedestal compared to the rest of humanity. And yet, your are pawns for the oil consumers, and not muuch else, the rest being rethoric. Your are tenants of convenience.

And here you are, with your high standing attitude of superiority.

I pity you.

I pity you for justifying brutality that can always escalate the violence to justify more violence.

I am sorry you had to suffer so much that you had to make sure revenge would be the only thing that could make sense. There is no excuse for terrorism, yet what you are doing is just as low.

The wise man said: "Man builds his House according to his ambition".

There is your home; what have you done with it?

And who is the real landlord of Israel?

Save your pity.

I value life. I tire of putting up with those who openly express their desire to murder me and my family. I tire of putting up with those among these forums who readily sympathize with those who have stated this as their goal. I cannot remain silent when those people in these forums who sympathize with murderers craft fiction and call it fact. I know that remaining silent allows people to forget the past, and I know that remaining silent allows people to look the other way.

I choose life. I do not take vengeance, I am one voice speaking out against liars, murderers, and people who have taken their lies into their hearts as fact.

There is no cycle of violence. There is simply war until enough Palestinians can accept Israel's existence. By the statements of PA officials, we know that they believe they can win the eradication of Israel. I choose life. I will not sit idly by for what would be the genocide of every Jew, nevermind that some Palestinians know that Israel provides a better life for Arabs and Muslims.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=628859

"Hamas is Worse than Israel, Worse than Sharon" The speaker of those words is one Ziad Zaranda, the Gazan whose fianc�e, Yusra Azzami, 20, was murdered because the couple were seen walking by the sea and Hamas operatives decided this act was so immoral, she deserved to die.

�Abd ar-Razzaq �Abid of Jerusalem's Silwan neighborhood pointed dubiously to "what's happening in Ramallah, Hebron, and the Gaza Strip" and asked if the residents there were well off. A doctor applying for Israeli papers explained:

The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage.

In the colorful words of one Jerusalem resident, "The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

When Palestinian rule seemed most likely in 2000, the Israeli Interior Ministry reported a substantial increase in citizenship applications from Arabs in eastern Jerusalem. A Jerusalem city councilor, Roni Aloni, heard from many Arab residents about their not wanting to live under PA control. "They tell me�we are not like Gaza or the West Bank. We hold Israeli IDs. We are used to a higher standard of living. Even if Israeli rule is not so good, it is still better than that of the PA." Shalom Goldstein, an adviser on Arab affairs to the Jerusalem mayor, found likewise: "People look at what is happening inside the Palestinian-controlled areas today and say to themselves, �Thank God we have Israeli ID cards.' In fact, most of the Arabs in the city prefer to live under Israeli rule than under a corrupt and tyrannical regime like Yasser Arafat's."

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

There is no cycle of violence. There is simply war until enough Palestinians can accept Israel's existence. By the statements of PA officials, we know that they believe they can win the eradication of Israel. I choose life. I will not sit idly by for what would be the genocide of every Jew . . .

Since when is questioning the existence of the state of Israel equivalent to a desire to eradicate every Jew? Do you really think being anti-Israel is the same as being anit-Jewish? I don't see too many Hamas chapters here in the United States advocating for the extermination of Jews in this country. Got evidence to back your assertion that opposition to the existence of Israel equates with the desire to eliminate "every Jew" off the face of the planet.

I say let both sides keep fighting until enough Israelis can accept Palestine's existence. BOTH Israelis and Palestinians must agree to accept the existence of BOTH Israel and Palestine. There needs to be a free and independent Palestine in the Middle East as well as a free and independent Israel.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Since when is questioning the existence of the state of Israel equivalent to a desire to eradicate every Jew? Do you really think being anti-Israel is the same as being anit-Jewish? I don't see too many Hamas chapters here in the United States advocating for the extermination of Jews in this country. Got evidence to back your assertion that opposition to the existence of Israel equates with the desire to eliminate "every Jew" off the face of the planet.

I say let both sides keep fighting until enough Israelis can accept Palestine's existence. BOTH Israelis and Palestinians must agree to accept the existence of BOTH Israel and Palestine. There needs to be a free and independent Palestine in the Middle East as well as a free and independent Israel.

Since when? Since the PA and Fatah leader says so.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:m...&client=safari

Fatah chief Farouk Khaddoumi said the PA strategy toward Israel was two-fold, according to the report. The first stage is acceptance of Israel alongside a PA state. But this is to be followed by an attempt to eliminate the Jewish state.

Khaddoumi replaced the deceased arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat as leader of Fatah
this past November.

This past April, Arutz-7 reported Kaddoumi's remarks to the Jordanian newspaper Al-Arab that the Palestinian Liberation Organization - the forerunner of the Palestinian Authority - has never changed its charter negating Israel's right to exist.

Kaddoumi also said at the time that Israel should not expect less terrorism if it withdraws from Gaza. "If Israel wants to leave the Gaza Strip, then it should do so," he said. "This means that the Palestinian resistance has forced it to leave. But the resistance will continue. Let the Gaza Strip be South Vietnam. We will use all available methods to liberate North Vietnam."

"At this stage there will be two states," Khaddoumi told Iran's Al Aram television, World Tribune.com reported. "Many years from now, there will be only one." He expressed confidence that in the end, Israel would be eliminated. "[There are] 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it," Khaddoumi said.

[James L]

Just curious Bubblewrap, but so far in recent threads I have seen you express your contempt (though I personally think it is fear) for gays, for people of other races, and of other religions.

What is worse, is that I have seen you express that you are passing these same myopic beliefs onto your offspring.

So, who do you like?

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Since when? Since the PA and Fatah leader says so.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:m...&client=safari

Fatah chief Farouk Khaddoumi said the PA strategy toward Israel was two-fold, according to the report. The first stage is acceptance of Israel alongside a PA state. But this is to be followed by an attempt to eliminate the Jewish state.

Khaddoumi replaced the deceased arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat as leader of Fatah
this past November.

This past April, Arutz-7 reported Kaddoumi's remarks to the Jordanian newspaper Al-Arab that the Palestinian Liberation Organization - the forerunner of the Palestinian Authority - has never changed its charter negating Israel's right to exist.

Kaddoumi also said at the time that Israel should not expect less terrorism if it withdraws from Gaza. "If Israel wants to leave the Gaza Strip, then it should do so," he said. "This means that the Palestinian resistance has forced it to leave. But the resistance will continue. Let the Gaza Strip be South Vietnam. We will use all available methods to liberate North Vietnam."

"At this stage there will be two states," Khaddoumi told Iran's Al Aram television, World Tribune.com reported. "Many years from now, there will be only one." He expressed confidence that in the end, Israel would be eliminated. "[There are] 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it," Khaddoumi said.

Yes, I've seen that before. However, it is a completely tangential reply to the questions in my post.

You argued that "the genocide of every Jew" is the goal. And I asked for examples that show anti-Israeli sentiment is proof of a desire to eliminate all Jews. And I asked for examples of anti-Jewish sentiment from Hamas here in the United States where we have a large Jewish population.

So, I repeat my question from my original post, "Got evidence to back your assertion that opposition to the existence of Israel equates with the desire to eliminate "every Jew" off the face of the planet."

If you've got proof that the anti-Israeli sentiment of the PA is in actuality an anti-Jewish sentiment decided to bring about the "the genocide of every Jew" I would like to know about it. You can be damn sure that if there are PA-affiliated groups in this country advocating genocide against the Jews of this country I will be writing my Congressman immediately to express my displeasure. But I need proof first.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by James L

Just curious Bubblewrap, but so far in recent threads I have seen you express your contempt (though I personally think it is fear) for gays, for people of other races, and of other religions.

What is worse, is that I have seen you express that you are passing these same myopic beliefs onto your offspring.

So, who do you like?

AAAHAHAHAHA!
Man are you way off base. Where have I said I don't like gays?
I just pointed out how much isalm loves gays. There are gay Christian churches. Find me one gay islamic church.
It's religion I poke at. Especially islam.
If I blasted Christianity, all would support me. I blast Islam and I "fear" people.
You're funny.
I point out truth and it's contempt.
I express an opinion and it's hate.

I just haven't started in on the Catholic church and pedophelia yet. But you'd be OK with that since they're a Christian orginazation I suppose.

Change dosen't come about without criticism. And I'm here to help change islam for the better in my own special way

[James L]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

I just haven't started in on the Catholic church and pedophelia yet. But you'd be OK with that since they're a Christian orginazation I suppose.

Change dosen't come about without criticism. And I'm here to help change islam for the better in my own special way

Actually, I am agnostic, bordering on athiest, so I hold the same beliefs for the Christian system as I do for the muslims, and all other religions for that matter.

I am actually not ok with pedophelia of any kind, and a comment like that leads me to believe that you have not had any experience with it. I deal with it, often daily at work, and see the devastating first hand effects of it.

As to your last sentence, you really should email it to the white house... I can definitely picture it being read by Bush at a press conference!

[bubblewrap]

Change islam to the Christian church and it's a left wing slogan.

I was once an atheist. Once.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Yes, I've seen that before. However, it is a completely tangential reply to the questions in my post.

You argued that "the genocide of every Jew" is the goal. And I asked for examples that show anti-Israeli sentiment is proof of a desire to eliminate all Jews. And I asked for examples of anti-Jewish sentiment from Hamas here in the United States where we have a large Jewish population.

So, I repeat my question from my original post, "Got evidence to back your assertion that opposition to the existence of Israel equates with the desire to eliminate "every Jew" off the face of the planet."

If you've got proof that the anti-Israeli sentiment of the PA is in actuality an anti-Jewish sentiment decided to bring about the "the genocide of every Jew" I would like to know about it. You can be damn sure that if there are PA-affiliated groups in this country advocating genocide against the Jews of this country I will be writing my Congressman immediately to express my displeasure. But I need proof first.

From their own literature.

From other articles in the Hamas charter and the movement�s various publications, that the attitude of Hamas toward Jews in general and Israelis in particular, is not as humane as the movement would have it seem. In leaflet #34 (January 1989) the movement called upon residents of the territories to "destroy the Jews and take revenge on them". Article 7 of the Charter quotes from the Koran: "The hour will not come until the Moslems fight the Jews and kill them, so much so that when a Jew will hide behind a tree or a stone, these will say: "Moslem, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him."

The Kuwaiti daily Al-Anba (October 1988) offered an explanation of the movement�s attitude toward the Jews: "Allah gathered the Jews to Palestine not so that it should serve them as a homeland, but rather so that Palestine should serve them as a cemetery. Allah will rid the entire world of the Jewish affliction, and just as pilgrims atone for their sins by offering a sacrifice at Mecca, so the Jews will be offered as a sacrifice at Al-Aqsa by hands as pure as those of the pilgrims."

On August 20, 2004 two suspected high-level Hamas operatives, Mohammed Salah and Abdelhaleem Ashqar, were detained on American soil and charged with providing material support to Hamas, racketeering, and money laundering.

That same day, accused Hamas money man Ismail Elbarasse was arrested after authorities witnessed his wife videotaping Maryland's Chesapeake Bay Bridge from their SUV as Mr. Elbarasse drove. The images captured by Mr. Elbarasse's wife included close-ups of cables and other features "integral to the structural integrity of the bridge," according to court papers.

CAIR, the so-called-civil-rights group, has several leaders on record as supporting Hamas.
To be more precise, they "don't support Hamas -publicly-." (Yes it's a real quote.) http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9461
They even have a leader who was convicted of funneling money to Hamas. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...olitan/3133785
You may also want to look into the Holy Land Foundation, http://www.adl.org/Israel/holyland.asp.

These just scratch the surface.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Article 7 of the Charter quotes from the Koran: "The hour will not come until the Moslems fight the Jews and kill them, so much so that when a Jew will hide behind a tree or a stone, these will say: "Moslem, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him."

Since you didn't provide a link for that I'll have to ask:

1. Is that you lying?
2. Is it your source lying?
3. Is it Hamas lying?
4. Or was is just an "honest" mistake?

[BoomStick]

Originally Posted by SVass

Egypt Air was probably listed as pilot error (or suicide) Pan Am was the girl friend of the terrorist?, not an Arab,

Egypt air was a suicide , read the CVR. I thought muslims didn't commit suicide.

Pan Am over Lockerby was instigated by Libia a muslim state.

They owned up to it and are paying out billions in compensation.

[bubblewrap]

Yusaf Islam (Cat Stevens) � �Not only did terrorists hijack planes and destroy life; they also hijacked the beautiful religion of Islam.� � contrast � when Jews didn�t take up Islam, they were slaughtered � Muhammed literally cut off hundreds of their heads saying, Muhammed � �The sword is the key of heaven and hell; a drop of blood shed in the cause of Allah, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting or prayer; whosever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim.�


Didn't Cat Stephens say he would also hunt and kill Salaman Rushdie?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Since you didn't provide a link for that I'll have to ask:

1. Is that you lying?
2. Is it your source lying?
3. Is it Hamas lying?
4. Or was is just an "honest" mistake?

You couldn't allow for the possibility that it is the truth, could you.

It is truth that Hamas' charter carries this declaration from Islam. Are you being a stickler that this is Hadith and not Quran-proper? If so, reject the Hadith, show me Muslim scholars that reject it, and spread the word to all the world that this is a false Hadith. Or, if it isn't a false Hadith, go ahead and admit that this nonsense accusation of yours is just that.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...s/charter.html

There is your precious Hamas' charter.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

From their own literature.

From other articles in the Hamas charter and the movement�s various publications, that the attitude of Hamas toward Jews in general and Israelis in particular, is not as humane as the movement would have it seem. In leaflet #34 (January 1989) the movement called upon residents of the territories to "destroy the Jews and take revenge on them". Article 7 of the Charter quotes from the Koran: "The hour will not come until the Moslems fight the Jews and kill them, so much so that when a Jew will hide behind a tree or a stone, these will say: "Moslem, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him."

The Kuwaiti daily Al-Anba (October 1988) offered an explanation of the movement�s attitude toward the Jews: "Allah gathered the Jews to Palestine not so that it should serve them as a homeland, but rather so that Palestine should serve them as a cemetery. Allah will rid the entire world of the Jewish affliction, and just as pilgrims atone for their sins by offering a sacrifice at Mecca, so the Jews will be offered as a sacrifice at Al-Aqsa by hands as pure as those of the pilgrims."

On August 20, 2004 two suspected high-level Hamas operatives, Mohammed Salah and Abdelhaleem Ashqar, were detained on American soil and charged with providing material support to Hamas, racketeering, and money laundering.

That same day, accused Hamas money man Ismail Elbarasse was arrested after authorities witnessed his wife videotaping Maryland's Chesapeake Bay Bridge from their SUV as Mr. Elbarasse drove. The images captured by Mr. Elbarasse's wife included close-ups of cables and other features "integral to the structural integrity of the bridge," according to court papers.

CAIR, the so-called-civil-rights group, has several leaders on record as supporting Hamas.
To be more precise, they "don't support Hamas -publicly-." (Yes it's a real quote.) http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9461
They even have a leader who was convicted of funneling money to Hamas. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...olitan/3133785
You may also want to look into the Holy Land Foundation, http://www.adl.org/Israel/holyland.asp.

These just scratch the surface.

I am still waiting for statements where Hamas, the PA, or some other political organization calls for the destruction of Jews on this planet. You used the term "genocide of every Jew".

Certainly the article from the Kuwaiti newspaper is calling for the "genocide of every Jew" and the paper should be soundly and vigorously denounced for advocating such a stance.

And the actions of two Hamas people on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge are troubling--I take that bridge every Summer to go to the Eastern Shore--but how are they related to anit-Jewish activities in the US?

All along your claims have been that the goal of the PA and Hamas is to eliminate Jews off from the planet in a "genocide". Nothing you have shown me yet leads me to believe that there real goal is elimination of the Jewish people and that the struggle for a Palestinian state is a subterfuge or incidental goal. So, I am more than willing to believe it when you show me proof. Either that or retract your statement that the goal of Hamas and the PA is the "genocide of every Jew".

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Save your pity.

I value life. I tire of putting up with those who openly express their desire to murder me and my family. I tire of putting up with those among these forums who readily sympathize with those who have stated this as their goal. I cannot remain silent when those people in these forums who sympathize with murderers craft fiction and call it fact. I know that remaining silent allows people to forget the past, and I know that remaining silent allows people to look the other way.

Yet, you are the one who brought this incendiary piece of information, which adds to the growing prejudice towards Islam. Funny stuff, considering your last paragraph, emphasizing "how good it is for Palestinians to live under Israeil rule". Isn't there a contradiction with your statement of painting such a negative picture with that large a brush?

I choose life.

Actually, that looks good, but that makes you also boring normal. In fact, you choose your life, and one can suppose, the life of those you identify with. Yet, the stance you chose was one of hatred, painting the whole Islam as bad compared to the whole Christianity and Judaism from an anecdotal report. I have shown several such incidents of people murdering others from their ideological stance. Islamists are no more different than any radicals; witness the death of children from inaction or greed around the world.

I do not take vengeance, I am one voice speaking out against liars, murderers, and people who have taken their lies into their hearts as fact.

There is no cycle of violence. There is simply war until enough Palestinians can accept Israel's existence.

Yeah. War by attrition is a great solution. No wonder the same plan lingers in the mind of those Palestinian terrorists... Circular logics are just that... circular.

As for the "no cycle of violence", I beg to differ; you are submerged by it and have lost all objectivity. Palestinians psychopaths or not, I see less and less difference between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine when I see the children dead. Of course, from whomever's point of view, it's always their fault. If that is not enough circularity to justify the idea that there is a cycle of violence, you have a problem.

By the statements of PA officials,

Please refer to your constant publication of hateful texts either from yourself or from them. They tend to be similar. See the last paragraph of your response to my post. And using quotes from assimilated Palestinians under Israeli rules throws more belligerance arguments from you. I can see how you can use the fact that under Israeli rule, it is not as bad as under Hamas; suddenly, even the assimilated Palestinians turn suspect, since they did not fully embraced the Israeli rule. In other words, the rethoric you use is self-serving in hatred; your quotes can be recycled ad nauseam to further justify your hatred.

we know that they believe they

"They?" Who is "They"? All of them? Again, your contradictions show more how hateful your stance is.

can win the eradication of Israel. I choose life. I will not sit idly by for what would be the genocide of every Jew,

Of course you should defend yourself. You'd be crazy not to!

nevermind that some Palestinians know that Israel provides a better life for Arabs and Muslims.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=628859

"Hamas is Worse than Israel, Worse than Sharon" The speaker of those words is one Ziad Zaranda, the Gazan whose fianc�e, Yusra Azzami, 20, was murdered because the couple were seen walking by the sea and Hamas operatives decided this act was so immoral, she deserved to die.

�Abd ar-Razzaq �Abid of Jerusalem's Silwan neighborhood pointed dubiously to "what's happening in Ramallah, Hebron, and the Gaza Strip" and asked if the residents there were well off. A doctor applying for Israeli papers explained:

The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage.

In the colorful words of one Jerusalem resident, "The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

When Palestinian rule seemed most likely in 2000, the Israeli Interior Ministry reported a substantial increase in citizenship applications from Arabs in eastern Jerusalem. A Jerusalem city councilor, Roni Aloni, heard from many Arab residents about their not wanting to live under PA control. "They tell me�we are not like Gaza or the West Bank. We hold Israeli IDs. We are used to a higher standard of living. Even if Israeli rule is not so good, it is still better than that of the PA." Shalom Goldstein, an adviser on Arab affairs to the Jerusalem mayor, found likewise: "People look at what is happening inside the Palestinian-controlled areas today and say to themselves, �Thank God we have Israeli ID cards.' In fact, most of the Arabs in the city prefer to live under Israeli rule than under a corrupt and tyrannical regime like Yasser Arafat's."

Hmm. The only good Palestinian is one with an Israeli ID.

Of course Arafat was corrupted and those crazies with bombs on their back to kill more innocents are totally insane. Do we have to feed them with more reasons to commit more violence? Does perpetuating the hatred further lead to a resolve?

I don't think so.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Yet, you are the one who brought this incendiary piece of information, which adds to the growing prejudice towards Islam. .

Of course Arafat was corrupted and those crazies with bombs on their back to kill more innocents are totally insane. Do we have to feed them with more reasons to commit more violence? Does perpetuating the hatred further lead to a resolve?

Followers of islam are doing a great job of this all on their own.
Vmarks is only presenting facts, not propagating hatred.
Nice try.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Followers of islam

All of them?

I rest my case.

are doing a great job of this all on their own.
Vmarks is only presenting facts, not propagating hatred.
Nice try.

My demonstration is a fact, you just added to my proof.

[vmarks]

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Palestinian television showing religious leaders inciting the genocide of Jews.

I never specified the planet as a whole, but that they want to start by eliminating Israel, making it free of Jews in the process.

We then only have to read their words:
Dr. Lufti Abd al-Azim, in Al-Ahram

"The first thing that we have to make clear is that no distinction must be made between the Jew and the Israeli....The Jew is a Jew, through the millennia....in spurning all moral values, devouring the living and drinking his blood for the sake of a few coins. The Jew, the Merchant of Venice, does not differ from the killer of Deir Yasin or the killer of the camps. They are equal examples of human degradation. Let us therefore put aside such distinctions and talk about Jews."

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Palestinian television showing religious leaders inciting the genocide of Jews.

I never specified the planet as a whole, but that they want to start by eliminating Israel, making it free of Jews in the process.

We then only have to read their words:
Dr. Lufti Abd al-Azim, in Al-Ahram

"The first thing that we have to make clear is that no distinction must be made between the Jew and the Israeli....The Jew is a Jew, through the millennia....in spurning all moral values, devouring the living and drinking his blood for the sake of a few coins. The Jew, the Merchant of Venice, does not differ from the killer of Deir Yasin or the killer of the camps. They are equal examples of human degradation. Let us therefore put aside such distinctions and talk about Jews."

Fair enough. But a "genocide of Jews" doesn't just apply to those Jews living in Israel. That would apply to all the Jewish people. So, some clarity please in future posts.

But you seem to imply that you think the elimination of all Jews is their plan. What do you mean when you say "they want to start by eliminating Israel, making it free of Jews in the process"? If the anti-Israel sentiments of Hamas and the PA are just directed towards the elimination of Israel why do you refer to these actions as a "start"? What wold they do next after the elimination of Israel, go after Syria or Jordan?

So, to eliminate any further confusion, let me ask you the following two questions regarding what you believe are the intents of Hamas and the PA.

Do you, vmarks, think the anti-Israeli sentiments of Hamas and the PA is part of a larger anti-Jewish agenda? That their real intent is not simply the elimination of Israel but the elimination of the Jewish people as a whole (i.e.: those who practice the Jewish faith)?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Are you being a stickler that this is Hadith and not Quran-proper?

It matters very much that it's a Hadith and not the Quran. There's a vast difference between the meaning of the Quran and the Hadiths. So tell me. Was it you or the site you took it from that made the claim that it was from the Quran?

There is your precious Hamas' charter.

Why would it be precious to me? Are you implying I'm a terrorist sympathiser? Just wondering because I thought personal attacks were forbidden. Perhaps moderators are exempt from that rule.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Blasphemy, blas for you, blas for everybody in the room..

Sorry I had to

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

All of them?

I rest my case.



My demonstration is a fact, you just added to my proof.

Again, we are all to ignore the sespool that islam has become.
And "proof" to what?

I have presented material supporting my opinion of islam and many(there's the symantics you demand) of it's followers.

You retort with nothing.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by James L

Just curious Bubblewrap, but so far in recent threads I have seen you express your contempt (though I personally think it is fear) for gays, for people of other races, and of other religions.

What is worse, is that I have seen you express that you are passing these same myopic beliefs onto your offspring.

So, who do you like?

Or, just his contempt of wrong doing?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by vmarks

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Palestinian television showing religious leaders inciting the genocide of Jews.

I never specified the planet as a whole, but that they want to start by eliminating Israel, making it free of Jews in the process.

We then only have to read their words:
Dr. Lufti Abd al-Azim, in Al-Ahram

"The first thing that we have to make clear is that no distinction must be made between the Jew and the Israeli....The Jew is a Jew, through the millennia....in spurning all moral values, devouring the living and drinking his blood for the sake of a few coins. The Jew, the Merchant of Venice, does not differ from the killer of Deir Yasin or the killer of the camps. They are equal examples of human degradation. Let us therefore put aside such distinctions and talk about Jews."

Of course, no one wants Islamist extremist leading any country. But what is the point of assimilating all Islamists to radicals/fundamentalists?

Your quotes of rampant racism have been clear from the time you made them. But is it necessary to quote them and only them all the time and generalize them continuously??

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Again, we are all to ignore the sespool that islam has become.
And "proof" to what?

I have presented material supporting my opinion of islam and many(there's the symantics you demand) of it's followers.

You retort with nothing.

You presented material supporting your generalized opinion of Islam regardless of any exceptions.

Semantics is everything, otherwise, you live in Psychopathia Land, re: disconnected from the rest of us communicating people.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Blasphemy, blas for you, blas for everybody in the room..

Sorry I had to

I almost posted exactly the same thing.

[Zimphire]

Eddie would be stoned if he was living in certain countries.

And I am not talking about the good kind.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

You presented material supporting your generalized opinion of Islam regardless of any exceptions.

Semantics is everything, otherwise, you live in Psychopathia Land, re: disconnected from the rest of us communicating people.

No, I don't live in Psychopathia Land. I'm not the one issueing orders to kill all those who critisize islam.

You have yet to explain the actions of these who issue orders to kill.
You skate around the question originally posed.

Now if you continue to get personal with me, I promise I will get really personal with you.
Comprende?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Now if you continue to get personal with me, I promise I will get really personal with you.
Comprende?

[bubblewrap]

I thought personal attacks were forbidden.




Now again I ask, can I go to an islamic country and openly critisize islam?
Or even publish a book within the borders of my country?

Let me bring up another name:
Theo Van Gogh.

Or do we ignore this one too?