[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

No, I don't live in Psychopathia Land. I'm not the one issueing orders to kill all those who critisize islam.

You have yet to explain the actions of these who issue orders to kill.
You skate around the question originally posed.

Now if you continue to get personal with me, I promise I will get really personal with you.
Comprende?

First, why do I have to explain their actions? Why don't you ask them? After all, they are the ones who acted like that! If you want to speculate on their reasons, then go ahead! We'll give you the credit you deserve!

Second, the leaders with the hateful speeches are the one you should talk about, not necessarily the followers. And then, even if the leaders are crazy, does that make the rest of the population crazy?

And I am not skating around the original question (btw: what was that question? Your first reaction was to throw the whole of Islam down the drain with your prejudiced comment

The tollerant, peacful islam at work

)

I am asking that you connect yourself back to reality: Bush makes a speech; does that mean all Americans think like him? Same here; a crazy mob went to kill a guy who sinned; therefore, they are all crazy? Do you only know for sure they all killed the guy? Were they all aware of what was really said before? And what if the local police is covering another story; after all, the Pakistani government is Islamic and corrupted, is it not? Or suddenly it becomes reliable because the version provided suits your beliefs? What if this story is a piece of propaganda to the benefit of the Pakistani government? Or to the benefit of this policeman, to make his job easier?

Have you ever been part of an angry mob? Put 500 hundred people together running after a guy; except for those who started the movement, I bet no one else knew what they were after! All you need is a couple of hotheads to trigger sensitivities and there you go.

Other examples of crazies killing one another for ideology: Hooligans during a soccer match. Do they know what they fight for? Nope; they do it because the others do it, without asking themselves the question. It is only pure anger from long standing unresolved frustrations evacuated where they have a bit of control; in a tightly knit group against another one clearly opposed. Christians, all of them!

Then, the cherry on the Sundae; make sure a reporter is there and gathers a few words and there is your anecdotal story. Add several layers of translation and your report is disconnected from reality. How about that?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

I thought personal attacks were forbidden.

Stop playing the offended virgin and report the abuse.

Now again I ask, can I go to an islamic country and openly critisize islam?
Or even publish a book within the borders of my country?

Try Saudi Arabia; they are your friends after all. And how about Uzbekistan? Or the now Free Afghanistan? And how about Iraq?

Let me bring up another name:
Theo Van Gogh.

Or do we ignore this one too?

No one deserve to die for his or her ideas. But burning the Apple tree field because of a few sick trees is not fair.

[bubblewrap]

I know better than to critisize islam there.
Why? Beacuse a death sentence is the norm for what we see as a freedom.
This isn't just one tree in the orchard.
The statistics are staggering of the number executed in SA for "crimes" against islam.



The same can be said of the Catholic church. But still many want to burn the orchard.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

I know better than to critisize islam there.
Why? Beacuse a death sentence is the norm for what we see as a freedom.
This isn't just one tree in the orchard.
The statistics are staggering of the number executed in SA for "crimes" against islam.



The same can be said of the Catholic church. But still many want to burn the orchard.

How? Who? Examples?

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Change dosen't come about without criticism. And I'm here to help change islam for the better in my own special way

Curious - what would you criticize about Islam?

Meaning, what exactly do you find objectionable in the Qur'an? - not in the actions of a handful who claim to follow it's teachings yet in reality do no such thing.

What do you feel needs 'changing'?

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

How? Who? Examples?

The lack of action against priests who molest children.
Hopefully the new pope will actually do something about this stain on the Catholic church.
Theit stance on women in seats of power in the church. There's plenty wrong. But it's another thread.




The treatment of women under islamic tradition is a BIG problem with me.
Van Gogh died for these same views.

Catholocism condemns homosexuality.
Islamic law deems a death sentence.

Sure I could list all that is right with islam but this is not what this topic is about now is it?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

The lack of action against priests who molest children.
Hopefully the new pope will actually do something about this stain on the Catholic church.

Starnge how the inaction of some (the Church in relation to the abusers) is very similar to the action of others (the Islamic killers of the blasphemator)...

Theit stance on women in seats of power in the church. There's plenty wrong. But it's another thread.

As if women were less human than men. Sounds like a jihad to my ears. Or enslavement to say the least...

The treatment of women under islamic tradition is a BIG problem with me.

I totally agree with you. Islamist fundamentalists have this despicable stance on women not that different from the Church. I wish they never get in power anywhere.

Van Gogh died for these same views.

Are you sure?

Catholocism condemns homosexuality.

Homosexuality is condemned by many very different people for the usual reasons.

Islamic law deems a death sentence.

Mentally handicaped criminals are submitted to the same treatment in some U.S. state...

Sure I could list all that is right with islam but this is not what this topic is about now is it?

And maybe it should... just to provide some balance against the "all Islamists are Evil".

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by KarlG

No, I don't know full well that this is the way of the Islamic world. What I do know full well is that this is the way of some Islamic radicals who bend and twist their religion to suit their purposes, just as Chrisianity and Judaism have people who bend and twist their religions to suit their purposes.

Let me get this straight; "just as Christianity and Judaism have people who bend and twist their religions to suit their purposes." Could you site for me an example in the last century that would have you believe Christianity and Judaism are fighting one another for territory, holding hostages, bombing buildings en masse, and targeting civilians in the name of Jesus Christ? I want to make sure that when someone says; "just like someone else" they actually have substantive information to back the claim. No, the Inquisitions don't count. It has to be the last century.

A news report such as this is still anecdotal in the sense that it doesn't necessarily report what is true regarding a majority of Islamic peoples' beliefs.

What the majority of people have to say only matters in nations where people have a say. Fascist dictatorships don't really allow for the majority of people to speak.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Could you site for me an example in the last century that would have you believe Christianity and Judaism are fighting one another for territory, holding hostages, bombing buildings en masse, and targeting civilians in the name of Jesus Christ?

Are you vmark's twin

It's already been done in this thread.

For Christians:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/para/lra.htm

For Judaism:

See the foundation of Israel(and to a lesser degree still today although the argument is there for it being greater today than before).

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Are you vmark's twin
It's already been done in this thread.
For Christians:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/para/lra.htm
For Judaism:
See the foundation of Israel(and to a lesser degree still today although the argument is there for it being greater today than before).

And yet it's Christians trying to get aid to the folks affected by the conflict of the LRA and an article by a Christian publication opposed to it's actions and seeking to help the victims;
http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/news...es/040227s.htm
You can click a link to donate aid to the victims. I mean, at least that way you can establish just how much you really care.
Also, perhaps you could tell me why these violent Christians are attacking Christians;
A rebel group, The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), led by a cultic spirit medium, has been terrorizing northern Uganda for sixteen years. Nearly one million Ugandans have been forced into refugee camps by the LRA rebels. While Christians have frequently been the targets of this group, the Catholic Church is now being specifically targeted for attack.

Seems to me this group is not Christian at all my friend. Can you show my how the LRA is a Christian group? I mean, the entire crux of your argument rests on proving this is a Christian group, otherwise your accusation falls flat and your statement asking whether or not I'm Vmarks' twin is moronic. Good luck on that.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Let me get this straight; "just as Christianity and Judaism have people who bend and twist their religions to suit their purposes." Could you site for me an example in the last century that would have you believe Christianity and Judaism are fighting one another for territory, holding hostages, bombing buildings en masse, and targeting civilians in the name of Jesus Christ? I want to make sure that when someone says; "just like someone else" they actually have substantive information to back the claim. No, the Inquisitions don't count. It has to be the last century.

What the majority of people have to say only matters in nations where people have a say. Fascist dictatorships don't really allow for the majority of people to speak.

The U.S. Marines: For God, Unit, then Country.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Let me get this straight; "just as Christianity and Judaism have people who bend and twist their religions to suit their purposes." Could you site for me an example in the last century that would have you believe Christianity and Judaism are fighting one another for territory, holding hostages, bombing buildings en masse, and targeting civilians in the name of Jesus Christ? I want to make sure that when someone says; "just like someone else" they actually have substantive information to back the claim. No, the Inquisitions don't count. It has to be the last century.

What the majority of people have to say only matters in nations where people have a say. Fascist dictatorships don't really allow for the majority of people to speak.

Why the heck is that "last Century" so important?

I though Christianity did not change since Jesus? Why is Last Century better? Are you ashamed of previous Centuries?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

And yet it's Christians trying to get aid to the folks affected by the conflict of the LRA and an article by a Christian publication opposed to it's actions and seeking to help the victims;
http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/news...es/040227s.htm
You can click a link to donate aid to the victims. I mean, at least that way you can establish just how much you really care.
Also, perhaps you could tell me why these violent Christians are attacking Christians;
A rebel group, The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), led by a cultic spirit medium, has been terrorizing northern Uganda for sixteen years. Nearly one million Ugandans have been forced into refugee camps by the LRA rebels. While Christians have frequently been the targets of this group, the Catholic Church is now being specifically targeted for attack.

Seems to me this group is not Christian at all my friend. Can you show my how the LRA is a Christian group? I mean, the entire crux of your argument rests on proving this is a Christian group, otherwise your accusation falls flat and your statement asking whether or not I'm Vmarks' twin is moronic. Good luck on that.

Oh come on. Can't you see how this exact same argument could be used for the topic of this thread? How they can't be Muslims because they attack Muslims?

If you think that's a valid argument then you should have "attacked" those who have been arguing against me in this thread instead of "attacking" those who are with me.

As for the vmark's twin comment. I said that because he said exactly the same in this thread(or the other one he started).

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Why the heck is that "last Century" so important?

I though Christianity did not change since Jesus? Why is Last Century better? Are you ashamed of previous Centuries?

I'm ashamed of the Inquisitions yes. Can you establish that the one example given is a Christian organization? Can you establish that the LRA is Christian? No? Got another example? I'm afraid the Marines will not suffice as a Christian organization. Does it say the God of the Bible or something? All marines are Chistians? I don't understand your supposition.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Oh come on. Can't you see how this exact same argument could be used for the topic of this thread? How they can't be Muslims because they attack Muslims?
If you think that's a valid argument then you should have "attacked" those who have been arguing against me in this thread instead of "attacking" those who are with me.
As for the vmark's twin comment. I said that because he said exactly the same in this thread(or the other one he started).

That's not all of what I'm saying Von. The LRA was cited as a Christian organization exacting terrorism on innocent people. The LRA is not Christian at all. I'm not just saying they're not Christian, they really aren't Christian. Are they doing this in the name of Jesus Christ or something? That's the entire crux of this argument. If you cite a "Christian" organization that is terrorizing people, and you get corrected by me stating they are not Christian, the ball is in your court in establishing they are Christian. How many attrocities do we hear on the news of acts committed in the name of Allah. In order for Judaism and Christianity to be "the same thing", attrocities have to be committed in the name of Jesus Christ. The one example offered does not fit. Care to try again??? I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just holding people to account for statements of complete ignorance.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I'm ashamed of the Inquisitions yes. Can you establish that the one example given is a Christian organization? Can you establish that the LRA is Christian? No? Got another example? I'm afraid the Marines will not suffice as a Christian organization. Does it say the God of the Bible or something? All marines are Chistians? I don't understand your supposition.

See, we started this thread about a poor guy being killed by a mob supposedly because of his disrespect for Islamic Sacred scriptures, Then, the whole Islam is to blame. Then some guy challenges everyone:

I challenge you to show me an example from this past century where Christians and Jews have done anything similar to this in the name of Christianity or Judaism, with 500 men chasing a man and executing him.

Suddenly, we go from one particular incident, to the whole cast of believers: "They are all the same!" We can almost hear through the bullsh*t. One did this: the others will do it too!

When America attempted to free Viet-Nam, did that not appear strange that so many people opposed that Freedom? How many were killed in the name of an Ideology about free access to the Markets?

You all want to stick to religion as the main ideology driving anyone, and forget that your own beliefs are klilling more people around the globe for the profits of a few stinkingly rich people, most being Christians!

And yet, Christianity is a religion of "Love". And all Christians follow the Book. And it makes them feel very good!

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

No, I don't live in Psychopathia Land. I'm not the one issueing orders to kill all those who critisize islam.

You have yet to explain the actions of these who issue orders to kill.
You skate around the question originally posed.

BW, you have yet to learn in the PL over here in MacNN, bad = good. And vice versa.

They get pissy at you for criticizing such things, then also get pissy at you for asking them why they are apologizing for such actions.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I'm ashamed of the Inquisitions yes.

[FONT=Century Gothic]I'm proud of them[/FONT]

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

No one deserve to die for his or her ideas. But burning the Apple tree field because of a few sick trees is not fair.

You do know that the majority of "Palestine" support and agree with terrorist actions right?

The number is up there with the 70-80% range. (And yes this has been proven time and time again, so don't try it)

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

For Christians:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/para/lra.htm

[Wiskedjak]

Saudi virtue cops nab smoochy star
Star or not, Saudi Arabia's enforcers of virtue make no exceptions: handshakes and congratulatory kisses in mixed company do not belong in a public mall. Religious authorities briefly detained Saudi singer Hisham Abdel Rahman, famous for winning this year's Star Academy reality TV show, for causing an indecent scene, a Riyadh police official said yesterday. Star Academy is as wildly popular in the Arab world as the like-minded U.S. show, American Idol.

Talk about oppression. Sounds like it's time to regime change Saudi Arabia.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

BW, you have yet to learn in the PL over here in MacNN, bad = good. And vice versa.

They get pissy at you for criticizing such things, then also get pissy at you for asking them why they are apologizing for such actions.

Ah! There you are!

Again, you read to add on the anger, but still cannot argue on the points being made. bubblewrap was generalizing on a few incidents. That is semantics. Read before posting; then we could tell if you are a part of the discussion.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

[FONT=Century Gothic]I'm proud of them[/FONT]

Oh. That helps this discussion a lot. The Inquisition was one of the most murderous attempts at Terror; Institutionalized Terrorists.

To be put to the test, or the Question, meant certain death. The only thing that could "save" you was, after being drowned in a barrel of filter water, your floatability. If the body goes back to the surface, your soul goes to Heavens. If it goes to the bottom, your bound for Hell.

There is no difference between Fundamentalists from any Era, Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Today, Muslim Extremists and Hooligans or corrupted Capitalists are part of the same lot.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Oh. That helps this discussion a lot. The Inquisition was one of the most murderous attempts at Terror; Institutionalized Terrorists.

To be put to the test, or the Question, meant certain death. The only thing that could "save" you was, after being drowned in a barrel of filter water, your floatability. If the body goes back to the surface, your soul goes to Heavens. If it goes to the bottom, your bound for Hell.

There is no difference between Fundamentalists from any Era, Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Today, Muslim Extremists and Hooligans or corrupted Capitalists are part of the same lot.

I don't know how to put this except: You are very misinformed about the practices of the Inquisition. What you are writing sounds like uninformed propaganda.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

You do know that the majority of "Palestine" support and agree with terrorist actions right?

The number is up there with the 70-80% range. (And yes this has been proven time and time again, so don't try it)

You do know that the majority of Americans agreed to the war on Iraq based on false presumptions? Or on the War on Terror?

Well, where are the results, besides a huge drop in support?

Once things appear quiet, nobody cares. While Israel is munching on Palestinian territory, you expect people will just let that happen without a word?

Palestinian support for Terrorists is certainly a dangerous association; how can one support the death of innocents by the sacrifice of people through such despicable acts? I have no answer for that. Religion is certainly a factor in rationalizing a lot of emotions and frustrations. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of propaganda is going on to fire the spirits and desinformation abound to make things more confused. That is certainly why there are individuals listening to hateful speeches. There is certainly an amount of peer pressure going on that makes it look worse than it really is.

But there is no smoke without fire.

By the way, how do you feel about innocent iraquis killed during their liberation? "**** happens", I suppose? And how would you react if an Army were to free you from a despot and you'd found your lover dead following a "****-happens" bombing?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Talk about oppression. Sounds like it's time to regime change Saudi Arabia.

Won't happen.

Unless the U.S. decides to free the Saudi?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I don't know how to put this except: You are very misinformed about the practices of the Inquisition. What you are writing sounds like uninformed propaganda.

Yeah right.

In the early days Christians survived Rome's persecution of their "atheism" (obedience to a heavenly God in place of the Empire's earthly gods) by hiding underground in the catacombs. One thousand years later, in alliance with the state, the church began to persecute atheists, witches, and other "heretics" whose beliefs might weaken Christianity's doctrines and the religious unity of the state. The instrument of this persecution was the Inquisition.

The word inquisition means "to question." The Inquisition was an inquiry court system established by Pope Gregory IX in 1231 to investigate possible heresy as well as to raise more money for the church. It lasted for more than 300 years. Priests, particularly Dominicans, traveled around Europe preaching about the faith and followed their sermons with the question: "Does anyone disagree with these church teachings?" If this failed to produce results, which quite normally it did, they asked if anyone knew of anyone who disagreed with church teachings. Under torture, persons sometimes admitted wrongdoing or gave names of others. Those suspected of heresy by the church were handed over to the civil authorities for punishment. In so doing, the church attempted to absolve itself of moral consequences. Those who were accused and found guilty by the Inquisition were fined, imprisoned, and their lands were confiscated. If they refused to recant, they were cruelly tortured and killed.

While originally the Inquisition was launched against heretics, it became directed against witches, Jews, and later Muslims. In 1484 the pope issued an order that allowed an inquisition of those suspected of witchcraft. The Malleus Maleficarum (literally the Hammer of Witches) was the theological and legal document used by the church for detecting and trying witches. Written by two Dominican theologians, it is laden with the most horrible misogynist rhetoric portraying women as inherently evil and naturally prone to witchcraft. Unfortunately, the misogyny of the Inquisition reinforced the lower status of women.

Some of the better-known victims of the Inquisition were Joan of Arc and Galileo. The practices of the Inquisition and much other corruption were greatly restricted by the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

And

Procedures

During the 13th century, the typical procedure began with the arrival of the inquisitors in a specific locality. A period of grace was proclaimed for penitent heretics, after which time denunciations were accepted from anyone, even criminals and other heretics. Two informants whose identity was unknown to the victim were usually sufficient for a charge. The court then summoned the suspect, conducted an interrogation, and tried to obtain the confession that was necessary for conviction. In order to do this, assisting secular authorities frequently applied physical torture. This practice probably started in Italy under the impact of rediscovered Roman civil law and made use of such painful procedures as stretching of limbs on the rack, burning with live coals, squeezing of fingers and toes, or the strappado, a vertical rack.
At the beginning of the interrogation, which was recorded summarily in Latin by a clerk, suspects and witnesses had to swear under oath that they would reveal everything. Unwillingness to take the oath was interpreted as a sign of adherence to heresy. If a person confessed and was willing to submit, the judges prescribed minor penances like flogging, fasts, prayers, pilgrimages, or fines. In more severe cases the wearing of a yellow "cross of infamy," with its resulting social ostracism, or imprisonment could be imposed. Denial of the charges without counterproof, obstinate refusal to confess, and persistence in the heresy resulted in the most severe punishments: life imprisonment or execution accompanied by total confiscation of property.

Since the church was not permitted to shed blood, the sentenced heretic was surrendered to the secular authorities for execution, usually by burning at the stake.

When the Inquisition had completed its investigations, the sentences were pronounced in a solemn ceremony, known as the sermo generalis ("general address") or, in Spain, as the auto-da-fe ("act of faith"), attended by local dignitaries, clergy, and townspeople. Here the penitents abjured their errors and received their penalties; obstinate heretics were solemnly cursed and handed over to be burned immediately in public.

Regarding the trick of the barrel of water, I cannot find the source, as it had been provided by a friend of mine whom had studied the subject at lenght.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Yeah right.



And



Regarding the trick of the barrel of water, I cannot find the source, as it had been provided by a friend of mine whom had studied the subject at lenght.

These texts are very superficial and inaccurate. The history of the Inquisition is long (300+) years and the quotes you mentioned are the summary of the protestant propaganda. In short, the texts you quoted do not describe the Inquisition in a fair and balanced way.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

That's not all of what I'm saying Von. The LRA was cited as a Christian organization exacting terrorism on innocent people. The LRA is not Christian at all. I'm not just saying they're not Christian, they really aren't Christian. Are they doing this in the name of Jesus Christ or something? That's the entire crux of this argument. If you cite a "Christian" organization that is terrorizing people, and you get corrected by me stating they are not Christian, the ball is in your court in establishing they are Christian. How many attrocities do we hear on the news of acts committed in the name of Allah. In order for Judaism and Christianity to be "the same thing", attrocities have to be committed in the name of Jesus Christ. The one example offered does not fit. Care to try again??? I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just holding people to account for statements of complete ignorance.

They used to call themselves: Uganda Peoples� Democratic Christian Army (UPDCA)

Christian enough?

How about Eric Robert Rudolph? JC Kopp? IRA? Christian Identity? The Order? How about KKK?

Want more?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I'm ashamed of the Inquisitions yes. Can you establish that the one example given is a Christian organization?

Why should it be a Christian organization? Were the people who ran and allegedly killed the guy all part of a Muslim organization? Which one? Let us compare similar things shall we? Let us stop generalizing the sins of a few to the whole group.

As for Christian organization running after people to kill them, let us look at the last 2 Popes and their Policy towards contraception in Africa.

Can you establish that the LRA is Christian? No?

Sorry, but the LRA is not my argument. I did not even read that post, busy I am replying to others... I do not even know what the LRA is about!

Got another example? I'm afraid the Marines will not suffice as a Christian organization. Does it say the God of the Bible or something?

Tell me, that God of the Marines, which is it again? And why are they going to war with that God to pray for exactly? When Bush prayed for the successful bombing of Iraq, what was it all about? I though State and Religion were separate in the U.S.!

All marines are Chistians?

Maybe not all of them, but the majority is, and so is your Commander in Chief!

I don't understand your supposition.

I sincerily hope I made it clearer.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

These texts are very superficial and inaccurate. The history of the Inquisition is long (300+) years and the quotes you mentioned are the summary of the protestant propaganda. In short, the texts you quoted do not describe the Inquisition in a fair and balanced way.

The opposing point of view is always propaganda.

Yet

Torture in the past

officials presiding over the torture of a man suspected to be homosexual before his subsequent execution during the Spanish Inquisition. Circa 1700 AD. According to Herrera Puga the authorities:
"placed no limits on the means; in this way they used the rack, the lash, fire, etc. In some cases... they applied padlocked irons to the flesh which even led to the amputation of a hand..."

I will admit readily that I am not a specialist or an historian.

But Ad extirpanda seem to be a key document in relation to the Inquisition. Also, I wonder why the period was called "The Dark Ages"...

[SVass]

Let us try a little inquisition history. While some Jews were murdered, others offered bribes to the church and local politicians and were allowed to emigrate from Spain. One family who went to Alsace later had members go to Bohemia (Prague) as Christians peons were not allowed to acquire learning nor to travel. Maria Theresa adopted the Familiants Law (ca. 1754) to restrict marriage among Jews to one male per family per generation. (The church supported her ascension to the throne and the Christian store owners did not want competition.) Thus several children from this family moved on to what are now Poland and Slovakia. (I admit that there was also an argument about whether singing was allowed in the synagogue.) Later still, protestants were restricted again to the land and most trades were opened only to Roman Catholics.

In other words, just as today, politicians accepted bribes from the wealthy and support from the church in order to maintain their hold on power. The evil don't care if mobs kill people or if soldiers kill people. The amoral leaders are not Muslims, Christians, or Jews. The demagogic leaders are equally responsible along with the mob for their actions. "The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those, who in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality." Dante

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Won't happen.

Unless the U.S. decides to free the Saudi?

Exactly ... it's ok for some states to be oppressive

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

See, we started this thread about a poor guy being killed by a mob supposedly because of his disrespect for Islamic Sacred scriptures, Then, the whole Islam is to blame. Then some guy challenges everyone:

You've misunderstood, simplemind. I challenged the one who couldn't keep his Christianophobic hands to himself, he simply had to sneak in an indictment against attrocities committed by Christians a couple of centuries ago. Someone says something about a guy getting killed for opposing Islam and I get to read about Christians and Jews. I just wasn't sure what this had to do with anything other than an opportunity (whether relevant or not, usually not) to bash Christianity. I know these guys did it in the name of Islam, BUT-BUT CHRISTIANS DID IT TOO!!! It just gets silly.

Suddenly, we go from one particular incident, to the whole cast of believers: "They are all the same!" We can almost hear through the bullsh*t. One did this: the others will do it too!

I happen to know and respect Muslims, I have no problem with them and I'm not suggesting they're all the same. Did I mention something about the whole cast of believers? Care to link to where I said that or are you just knee-jerking as usual?

When America attempted to free Viet-Nam, did that not appear strange that so many people opposed that Freedom? How many were killed in the name of an Ideology about free access to the Markets?

Yeah, BUT-BUT WHAT ABOUT POL POT?!?

You all want to stick to religion as the main ideology driving anyone,

In an theocracy, yes; religion is the main ideology driving anyone.

and forget that your own beliefs are klilling more people around the globe for the profits of a few stinkingly rich people, most being Christians!

Can you name any one action that was done in the name of Jesus Christ? Can you site one example in the last century of Christians committing an attrocity in the name of Jesus Christ?

Christianity is a religion of "Love". And all Christians follow the Book. And it makes them feel very good!

All Christians don't follow the book. You might know this is part of the problem. However, the ones that do feel very good.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

You've misunderstood, simplemind.

I happen to know and respect Muslims, I have no problem with them and I'm not suggesting they're all the same. Did I mention something about the whole cast of believers? Care to link to where I said that or are you just knee-jerking as usual?

Was I talking about you? If you'd read this thread with more attention, you would understand this thread is not about you, but about generalization.

Yeah, BUT-BUT WHAT ABOUT POL POT?!?

What about all the civillians?

From MacNamara himself:

In In Retrospect I said that "It seems beyond understanding, incredible, that we did not force ourselves to confront such issues head-on." If we had done so, we might have discovered what I now believe to have been the case: that Ho Chi Minh and his colleagues were primarily nationalists, and only secondarily communists, and thus disinterested in extensive communist control over Southeast Asia. Ho was more comparable to Tito than to Castro

I also suggest to you The Fog of War

In an theocracy, yes; religion is the main ideology driving anyone.

Can you name any one action that was done in the name of Jesus Christ? Can you site one example in the last century of Christians committing an attrocity in the name of Jesus Christ?

The so-called Good against the so-called Evil and all the innocent lives in between.

All Muslims don't follow the book. You might know this is part of the problem. However, the ones that do feel very good.

Fixed, and that was my point from the beginning. I hope I am clearer now.

[ebuddy]

Well, if you go back and read through this thread you would see the following;

SimpleLife; You can't be of ANY faith to be in government. You can't pray because everything you do from then on will be construed as being endorced fully by your faith. As one of faith, your actions are the actions of that faith. We can only have agnostics and atheists in government. Then we can hear things like; "it's morally wrong to push your morals on everyone else." Bush is a Christian so everything he does is to be construed as a Christian crusade. If someone says "God" they must be referring to the God of the Bible.

Someone brings up an organization, cites them for being misbehaving Christians, I tell the poster it's not a Christian organization any more than NAMBLA and none of the said attrocities were committed in the name of the Christian God. What happens to people that commit attrocities in the name of Jesus Christ today? They become the laughing stock of our primarily Christian nation and the full force of the law is brought down on them. In regards to women, there are more women in places of power in this country than at any other point in our history; ironically A Christian President and a primarily Christian country.

Regarding the LRA for KarlG's sake; This was not nor is it today a Christian organization. It is Millenarianism, calls on channeling spirits of humans such as Juma Oris which is in direct conflict with Christian doctrine. He's simply capitalizing on a growing Christianity in the region and is bastardizing it to thrust an agenda. Are people bastardizing Islam to commit attrocities just as people have bastardized Christianity. This doesn't mean Christians and Jews are "just the same" as terrorists. It makes Jews and Christians' faith just as victimized as those of Islam. The LRA you might know is a relatively new organization in response to the travesties committed against the Christians of Uganda, not to mention the attrocities committed against Christians in Sudan. The thrust was a rising tension between people's that felt disenfranchised. In using the argument I've heard from several others for reasoning behind 9/11; I guess you'd have to say the actions committed by the LRA are a result of oppression in the region. Is it right? Absolutely not nor is it in accordance with Christian teaching and doctrine. It is however, an unfortunate human condition that should not have taken 3 pages of thread to illustrate.

Claiming the KKK is a Christian organization is also bogus. At the inception of Nazi Germany, the only ones to stand up in opposition to them as noted by Einstein was the Church. People with even a fundamental understanding of Scripture are quick to call organizations like these to the carpet. In many respects you could call it "Christian identity", but it certainly is not Christian in it's practice nor it's beliefs. To not see this is to understand very little of Christianity and to have a very simple mind. I also cringe when I see "Islam, religion of hate." as I know several muslims and they are among the most humbled and hospitable people on the planet. Unless someone can cite for me a very specific example of a Muslim movement, with overwhelming Muslim support among it's top clergy, with good evidence that they are bent on over-throwing other religions and governments, you should probably just equate terrorism to terrorism having no basis in true theology. I'd appreciate the same respect regarding Christianity.

That said; if someone posts "Islam, the peaceful religion" and then sarcastically includes attrocities committed by supposed "muslims", refute the claims. Expose the poster for ignorance. I just have a problem with "well, Christians did it a couple of centuries ago!!!" This means nothing. Refute the claims of the poster relevant to the subject at hand or ignore the poster altogether. When you try to draw similarites of an ignorant post, using ignorant banter, I'm going to call it out because that's the freedom we have in this forum.

BTW; SimpleLife, it doesn't take 3 pages of banter to suggest that all are equally inclined to misbehave, but when it is said; "just like Christians and Jews" I'm going to call it out. That's all I've been trying to say. I had a hard time understanding why this was difficult for you to see in your apparent need to argue with me on the topic. I thought I smelled a little Christianophobia in here and I wanted to call it out. That's what I do.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

BTW; SimpleLife, it doesn't take 3 pages of banter

Clearly, you do not have the same understanding as I have from this thread.

to suggest that all are equally inclined to misbehave, but when it is said; "just like Christians and Jews" I'm going to call it out.

I see, the misbehaving is different from Christians and Jews.

That's all I've been trying to say. I had a hard time understanding why this was difficult for you to see in your apparent need to argue with me on the topic. I thought I smelled a little Christianophobia in here and I wanted to call it out. That's what I do.

As per ebuddy, this thread is now about Christianophobia.

Funny; from Islamophobia, we slamdunk in Christianophobia. I remark, ebuddy, that you have not called the Islamophobia of this thread...

[BoomStick]

Listen now to the truth which I have for you, Christians and Jews don't misbehave.

They also aren't required to go woship some meteor once in their lifetime.
That sounds like the work of satan.
Satan delivered false teaching to his false prophet to deceive the good Arabic people in order to fulfill the prophecy given unto Hagar about Ishmael.


I have given you the truth and truth can not be rebuked because it is from God.

Anger about this truth will only solidify that satan is at work.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

Listen now to the truth which I have for you, Christians and Jews don't misbehave.

They also aren't required to go woship some meteor once in their lifetime.
That sounds like the work of satan.
Satan delivered false teaching to his false prophet to deceive the good Arabic people in order to fulfill the prophecy given unto Hagar about Ishmael.


I have given you the truth and truth can not be rebuked because it is from God.

Anger about this truth will only solidify that satan is at work.

lol

[ebuddy]

I don't appreciate Islamophobia as I mentioned in this statement;
"That said; if someone posts "Islam, the peaceful religion" and then sarcastically includes attrocities committed by supposed "muslims", refute the claims. Expose the poster for ignorance. I just have a problem with "well, Christians did it a couple of centuries ago!!!" This means nothing. Refute the claims of the poster relevant to the subject at hand or ignore the poster altogether. When you try to draw similarites of an ignorant post, using ignorant banter, I'm going to call it out because that's the freedom we have in this forum."
I then offered up a challenge to the original poster in the following; I also cringe when I see "Islam, religion of hate." as I know several muslims and they are among the most humbled and hospitable people on the planet. Unless someone can cite for me a very specific example of a Muslim movement, with overwhelming Muslim support among it's top clergy, with good evidence that they are bent on over-throwing other religions and governments, you should probably just equate terrorism to terrorism having no basis in true theology. I'd appreciate the same respect regarding Christianity."
As to your claim that I didn't slam Islamophobia, I apologize if I didn't go as far as you would like to have seen. I will defend Christianity because I think it gets a bad wrap and I know a few things about it. I'm not as knowledgeable regarding Islam so I'll let those invested in Islam to make the defense more succinctly.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

Listen now to the truth which I have for you, Christians and Jews don't misbehave.

They also aren't required to go woship some meteor once in their lifetime.
That sounds like the work of satan.
Satan delivered false teaching to his false prophet to deceive the good Arabic people in order to fulfill the prophecy given unto Hagar about Ishmael.


I have given you the truth and truth can not be rebuked because it is from God.

Anger about this truth will only solidify that satan is at work.

Wow, ignorant post of the year, oh wait, there are others so let it be called ignorant post of the week.

Just a hint for you: In the Quran, the holy word of God for the muslims in the arabic language comparable to the person of Jesus, Satan gets condemned right away and is promised by God eternal punishment in hell for him, and even more notable is that all previous prophets from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Ismaeel, Isaac, Jacob, Josef, Salomon, David,... Mary and Jesus and their respective messages and convenants are acknowledged as true prophets inspired/talked directly to/created for that purpose... by one and the same God and equipped with true messages and convenants that are included and completed in the Quran.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

How many aircraft have been hijacked by Middle Easterners?
How many airline passangers have died at the hands of Middle Easterners?
Or Muslim in particular.
There is a trend here.

That's interesting, comeon provide the statistics, I'm really curios because my memory tells me that minus 9/11 there weren't very many airline-hijackings during which passengers died at the hand of middle-easterns.

Most known hijackings were committed by the PLO, and nearly noone died during the PLO-hijhackings, as they just landed the airliners somewhere and evacuated the planes before exploding them.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

You have yet to address this:
In the Christian world you can get a grant to compose art the critisizes Christianity.
Write a book critisizing isalm and get a price on your head.

Remember Salaman Rushdie?
Also a moslem.


Yeah, peaceful.

You do know that Khomeini was a shia-leader, and that shia only represent about 10% of Islam, don't you? Besides a fetwa signed by a shia-leader has only authority for shia-muslims, as long as the one who wrote the fetwa lives. The minute the shia-leader dies all of his fetwas become worthless, that's the shia-system.

Not to say that some crazy Khomeini-fan wouldn't kill Rushdie, but that shia-fanatic wouldn't be covered by the fetwa anymore and so according to the shia-doctrine he wouldn't have a right to paradise for his deed.

Off course he wouldn't have anyway a guaranteed right to paradise even if Khomeini still lived and the fetwa still holds, but that is beside the point.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Since when? Since the PA and Fatah leader says so.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:m...&client=safari

Fatah chief Farouk Khaddoumi said the PA strategy toward Israel was two-fold, according to the report. The first stage is acceptance of Israel alongside a PA state. But this is to be followed by an attempt to eliminate the Jewish state.

Khaddoumi replaced the deceased arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat as leader of Fatah
this past November.

This past April, Arutz-7 reported Kaddoumi's remarks to the Jordanian newspaper Al-Arab that the Palestinian Liberation Organization - the forerunner of the Palestinian Authority - has never changed its charter negating Israel's right to exist.

Kaddoumi also said at the time that Israel should not expect less terrorism if it withdraws from Gaza. "If Israel wants to leave the Gaza Strip, then it should do so," he said. "This means that the Palestinian resistance has forced it to leave. But the resistance will continue. Let the Gaza Strip be South Vietnam. We will use all available methods to liberate North Vietnam."

"At this stage there will be two states," Khaddoumi told Iran's Al Aram television, World Tribune.com reported. "Many years from now, there will be only one." He expressed confidence that in the end, Israel would be eliminated. "[There are] 300 million Arabs, while Israel has only the sea behind it," Khaddoumi said.

Yes, for a long time the strategy of the PLO of Arafat was the destruction of the state (!!) of Israel and the expelling of all jews/zionists that came to Palestine after 1917, but not a genocide of jews.

Hamas has still that strategy maybe even with the "ideal" of expelling all jews, but despite their colurful language, which is often used in the arabic-poetic tradition of exaggerating for purposes of motivation, genocide is not the goal.

While the PLO has already changed their strategy to just found a palestinian state in the Westbank, Gaza and East-Jerusalem, the Hamas is only slowly changing their maximalistic stance towards the PLO-compromise for the sake of political participation in the PA.

If someone from the PLO utters again something to the contrary then it should be obvious that it's just a PR-act in order to win the support of the mass of palestinians for the peace-process with the idea that once a palestinian state is established and the majority of palestinians free from israeli oppression and the effects of improved economy and quality of life play out, that they will then forget the maximalistic goal.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by vmarks

From their own literature.
Article 7 of the Charter quotes from the Koran: "The hour will not come until the Moslems fight the Jews and kill them, so much so that when a Jew will hide behind a tree or a stone, these will say: "Moslem, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him."

Oh, comeon, be a bit more honest, that isn't written in the Quran but in the Hadith-collections and while there are a few credible hadiths, most are very questionable and some like the one you used even contradicts directly the Quran.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Right back at you, but I would like to clear up some misconceptions you may have. Islam is not a religion of peace, although it could have been, if only Mohammed had not gone ballistic after being rejected by my people. The first half of the Koran is much more positive than the second half, which contains the horrific vitriol against the non-believer. But since the latter half is postdates the first half, it is reasonable to assume that when the two parts contradict the latter half should be viewed as normative. Let's take a look at some of those wholesome statements from the Koran and Hadith:

Big Mac you shouldn't twist and change the Quran-verses to suit your anti-Islam-bias. Here is what the Quran-verses you posted really read like within their context:

Sura 9:4- 9:14:
9:4 If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.
9:5 Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
9:6 If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.
9:7 How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous.
9:8 How can they (demand a pledge) when they never observed any rights of kinship between you and them, nor any covenant, if they ever had a chance to prevail. They pacified you with lip service, while their hearts were in opposition, and most of them are wicked.
9:9 They traded away GOD's revelations for a cheap price. Consequently, they repulsed the people from His path. Miserable indeed is what they did!
9:10 They never observe any rights of kinship towards any believer, nor do they uphold their covenants; these are the real transgressors.
9:11 If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know.
9:12 If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism - you are no longer bound by your covenant with them - that they may refrain.
9:13 Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place? Are you afraid of them? GOD is the One you are supposed to fear, if you are believers.
9:14 You shall fight them, for GOD will punish them at your hands, humiliate them, grant you victory over them, and cool the chests of the believers.

So you see that it even doesn't mention jews or christians but pagans that violated the peace-contract they made with prophet Muhammad, therefore in these verses God calls prophet Muhammad and his followers to lead a defensive war against pagans that started the war.

Ok, so let's see your next Quran-verse, sura 9:29:

You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

Again the emphasis is on fighting back, even when they are people of the book. The historic context was the declaration of war by Byzant against prophet Muhammad and his followers among the arabs.

Now let's see your last Quran-verse 98:6-98:8:

98:6 Those who disbelieved among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.
98:7 Those who believed and led a righteous life are the best creatures.
98:8 Their reward at their Lord is the gardens of Eden with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. Such is the reward for those who reverence their Lord.

Source: http://www.quranbrowser.org/index.html

So, again you see that your quote was wrong, the quran-verse merely promised eternal punishment in hell for those people that didn't believe in God be they from the people of the book or from the pagans, and one verse later it promised eternal reward in paradise for those, also from among the people of the book, that believed in God and led a righteous life.

As to the Hadiths, there are only very rarely credible hadiths, most are questionable and a lot even in direct contradiction to the Quran.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Regarding the topic at hand, the blasphemy-incident and blasphemy-laws in Pakistan, one should remember that they have no basis in Quran-scripture, but instead they are based in british colonial-law:

At the root of the problem is a small segment of religious hardliners who exploit religious sentiments and inflame popular passions using any excuse available. Blasphemy cases are useful instruments for them and they use religious hypersensitivity to add to the general climate of sectarian intolerance accompanied by violence and death. The hardliners have been consistently exerting pressure on the government to strengthen blasphemy laws. They ignore the historical fact that blasphemy laws were introduced by the British back in 1860 in a misguided attempt to reduce tension between Hindus and Muslims. The laws were instituted for purely administrative reasons and do not have any basis in religious tenets.
...

Many cite the fact that there are only three verses in the Quran (7:180, 41:40 and 33:57) that are actually relevant to concept, as distinct from the act, of blasphemy. None of these verses says that people can be charged and brought to trial for blasphemy. The Quran does not confer any authority or despotic power to any individual, community or state to act as the guardian of the religion. In fact, there are explicit proscriptions on the arrogation of such powers, which are to be found in the Quranic verses 6:107, 88:22 and 64:2.

Source: http://www.himalmag.com/2003/october/commentary_pk.htm

Pakistan should really abolish the blasphemy-laws as they contradict the Quran that always leaves open the possibility for people to change and repent and return to faith in God, which is prevented by these pakistani-laws.

One has to note that the unfortunate guy got only killed by the mob after he went through court because of blasphemy, so that the mob felt partly justified. So only by abolishing the blasphemy-laws and by introducing and executing laws against "mob-justice" it is possible to act against such unislamic behavings.

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Ah! There you are!

Again, you read to add on the anger, but still cannot argue on the points being made. bubblewrap was generalizing on a few incidents. That is semantics. Read before posting; then we could tell if you are a part of the discussion.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I don't know how to put this except: You are very misinformed about the practices of the Inquisition. What you are writing sounds like uninformed propaganda.

Ah, you've just started reading his posts I take it?

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

They used to call themselves: Uganda Peoples� Democratic Christian Army (UPDCA)

Christian enough?

How about Eric Robert Rudolph? JC Kopp? IRA? Christian Identity? The Order? How about KKK?

Want more?

If I give you an Apple. And tell you it's an orange.

Are you going to carry it around telling people it's an orange, even though obviously by looking at it, it's no orange?