[vmarks]

To this tiny minority of extremists, voting is apostasy.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...tainvotemuslim

LONDON (AFP) - Radical Muslim protesters disrupted a press conference where leaders of Britain's main Islamic group, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), were discussing the country's May 5 general election.


AFP Photo


Some 15 men, most of them in the late teens and early 20s and two of them hiding their faces with headscarves, burst into the event on Tuesday at the Central London Mosque, where the council was unveiling a voting guide for the estimated one million British voters who are Muslims.


Council secretary general Iqbal Sacranie suspended the press conference for 15 minutes as one of the protesters shouted: "We are here to condemn you and your organisation."


The protesters, who said they were from a group called the Saviour Sect, distributed leaflets declaring that leaders from all of Britain's political parties were "shayaateen (devils), crooks, criminals and false gods".


"Voting is an act of apostasy," one organiser in his 20s, who declined to give his name, told AFP.


"Allah is the only legislator; there is no law but his," another man declared.


The group said they discouraged British Muslims from voting, and accused the MCB -- an umbrella organisation representing more than 400 Muslim groups in the country -- of serving as the "eyes and ears" of Prime Minister Tony Blair's government.


Some 10 police officers were at the mosque, but did not intervene.


The men left after a half-hour interruption, jostling organisers and hitting Sacranie in the face on the way out.


Sacranie later denounced the group as extremely marginal, representative of a "self-pitying defeatist attitude" that led to abstentionsm.


The MCB, often quoted in the British media, did not back one party for the May 5 poll but published a list of 10 questions that Muslim voters should ask of their candidates on issues like immigration, anti-terror laws and education.


BRITAIN-SACRANIE-MUSLIM-COUNCIL-PROTESTERS


LONDON (UNITED KINGDOM), 04/19 (AFP) - The general-secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, Iqbal Sacranie (R), asks police officers for assistance after Muslim protesters representing Al Muhajiraun interrupted his press conference at London Central Mosque in Regents Park, London 19 April 2005. Some 20 protesters stormed the press conference and confronted the speakers for more than 20 minutes. The protesters left the mosque chanting "Osama bin Laden". The press conference was originally planned to encourage British Muslims to vote in the upcoming elections.

[Nicko]

People have opinions, what is your point?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by vmarks

To this tiny minority of extremists, voting is apostasy.

So, with reference to the part of your statement that I have highlighted - yes, that seems to be the case. So what's your point? (other than to start another 'Muslims are teh devil!!11' flame fest?)

[von Wrangell]

What I find most interesting with these news is what is being reported. Here we have an organisation representing almost all the British Muslim societies preparing Muslims for the elections and encouraging them to vote but what gets reported is that about 15 young men "crashed the party" and made a scene.

Typical western journalism always focusing on the negative aspects of Islam/Muslims instead of the good.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

So, with reference to the part of your statement that I have highlighted - yes, that seems to be the case. So what's your point? (other than to start another 'Muslims are teh devil!!11' flame fest?)

I don't believe 'Muslims are teh devil' as you say- that's some other person's fantasy. I simply want to bring to light many of the events of the day, and I wonder at what point a 'tiny minority of extremists' becomes not so tiny and not so much a minority.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I don't believe 'Muslims are teh devil' as you say- that's some other person's fantasy. I simply want to bring to light many of the events of the day, and I wonder at what point a 'tiny minority of extremists' becomes not so tiny and not so much a minority.

Oh for heavens sake. In the very article you post you see two numbers

1. about 1 million Muslim voters in Britain.
2. 15 made a scene.

OMG 0.0015% of British Muslims protested against the Muslim Organisations rally to get Muslims to vote!! LET'S ALL PANIC!!!!

[BoomStick]

That's how cancer kills you.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

So, with reference to the part of your statement that I have highlighted - yes, that seems to be the case. So what's your point? (other than to start another 'Muslims are teh devil!!11' flame fest?)

His point is, that this type of behavior from Muslims is more prevalent than you guys (Muslim MacNNers) are able to admit.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

His point is, that this type of behavior from Muslims is more prevalent than you guys (Muslim MacNNers) are able to admit.

0.0015% of British Muslim voters did this.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

That's how cancer kills you.

Yes, you need to stop smoking.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

0.0015% of British Muslim voters did this.

Which is most likely a very small fraction of the Muslims who supported or sympathized with the action.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Which is most likely a very small fraction of the Muslims who supported or sympathized with the action.

Where is Zimphire and his Projecting� when you need him?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Where is Zimphire and his Projecting� when you need him?

Not at all. It's commonly known that if you see a few cockroachs, it's likely that you already infested with them.

[BoomStick]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yes, you need to stop smoking.

Deny it all you want, but the the few bad apples in Islam are becoming an orchard.

It'll be too late soon if y'all don't prune the trees soon.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Not at all. It's commonly known that if you see a few cockroachs, it's likely that you already infested with them.

You mean there could potentially be a WHOLE 1% of Muslims who sympathize with terrorists!?!??!

The sheer scale of the 'infestation' boggles the mind!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

You mean there could potentially be a WHOLE 1% of Muslims who sympathize with terrorists!?!??!

The sheer scale of the 'infestation' boggles the mind!

Ok, lets put this into perspective, if it is only 1% (which I believe is far too conservative) that's a far higher percentage than any other major world religion, somewhere around 12-13 million people... that's about the same as all of Judaism.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

However, I don't believe it's only 1%, considering that predominantly Muslim countries such as Jordan, Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Turkey, Morroco, Saudi Arabia, and Syria have high percentages of their population who believe that suicide bombings are justifiable.

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=206

I'd put it on the order of about 20-25%, worldwide... or, 250-350M.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by eklipse

You mean there could potentially be a WHOLE 1% of Muslims who sympathize with terrorists!?!??!

Let's talk about this. In the Al-Moayad trial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/25/ny...tml?oref=login

Dr. Bernard Haykel is a professor of Islamic Studies at New York University.

He says: "There are a billion plus Muslims in the Arab world, 90 percent of whom support Hamas," he testified. "If they were all terrorists, we would be in dire trouble."

Dr. Haykel says they are not all terrorists. But if they support Hamas, they are terrorist sympathizers, and in many cases, terrorism enablers.

So 90% of a billion-plus is a tiny minority?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Dr. Bernard Haykel is a professor of Islamic Studies at New York University.

He says: "There are a billion plus Muslims in the Arab world, 90 percent of whom support Hamas," he testified. "If they were all terrorists, we would be in dire trouble."

And he bases this comment on what?

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

That's how cancer kills you.

If you have a bushle of Apple's, and 2 of them are rotten.

How long does it take that rotteness to spread?

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Where is Zimphire and his Projecting� when you need him?

I don't think that is a projection. They did studies in Iraq a lone.

70 to 80% of the muslim population supported terrorists and their actions against the infidel.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

I don't think that is a projection. They did studies in Iraq a lone.

70 to 80% of the muslim population supported terrorists and their actions against the infidel.

Two completely unrelated events, two completely unrelated countries and the list goes on. Try again.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Ok, lets put this into perspective, if it is only 1% (which I believe is far too conservative) that's a far higher percentage than any other major world religion, somewhere around 12-13 million people... that's about the same as all of Judaism.

Your comparison is meaningless, the number of Jews in the world is substantially smaller than the number of Muslims. You can't compare percentages from one group to totals from another.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

However, I don't believe it's only 1%, considering that predominantly Muslim countries such as Jordan, Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Turkey, Morroco, Saudi Arabia, and Syria have high percentages of their population who believe that suicide bombings are justifiable.

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=206

I'd put it on the order of about 20-25%, worldwide... or, 250-350M.

Statistics can be shown to prove anything, 78% of people know that.

In this case, the high percentages are likely directly attributable to the Israel-Palestine conflict where the vast majority of victims are Muslim civilians. It's entirely expected that a large percentage of the wider Muslim population would be supportive of retaliatory action. Peoples' opinions are not formed in a vacuum.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Let's talk about this. In the Al-Moayad trial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/25/ny...tml?oref=login

Dr. Bernard Haykel is a professor of Islamic Studies at New York University.

He says: "There are a billion plus Muslims in the Arab world, 90 percent of whom support Hamas," he testified. "If they were all terrorists, we would be in dire trouble."

Dr. Haykel says they are not all terrorists. But if they support Hamas, they are terrorist sympathizers, and in many cases, terrorism enablers.

So 90% of a billion-plus is a tiny minority?

90% according to whom?

One New York professor?

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

I don't think that is a projection. They did studies in Iraq a lone.

70 to 80% of the muslim population supported terrorists and their actions against the infidel.

Retaliatory actions against an infidel invading and occupying force? Absolutely.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Two completely unrelated events, two completely unrelated countries and the list goes on. Try again.

You can keep spinning it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you've been dizzy regarding this subject since we all started talking about this on MacNN.


Besides, YOU are the one that brought up the correlation between the actions in the UK and terrorism.

You mean there could potentially be a WHOLE 1% of Muslims who sympathize with terrorists!?!??!

You hung yourself with that rope.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Your comparison is meaningless, the number of Jews in the world is substantially smaller than the number of Muslims. You can't compare percentages from one group to totals from another.

Statistics can be shown to prove anything, 78% of people know that.

In this case, the high percentages are likely directly attributable to the Israel-Palestine conflict where the vast majority of victims are Muslim civilians. It's entirely expected that a large percentage of the wider Muslim population would be supportive of retaliatory action. Peoples' opinions are not formed in a vacuum.

Or, it could be that the modern Muslim belief system has become corrupt, and is now degenerated into a morass of shameful destruction and perverted ideology?

If 20-25% of your faith believes that suicide bombings are OK, then there is something very wrong with your religion, REGARDLESS of how they came to their conclusions. Wiggle all you want, but it's still just a tangled mess.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Retaliatory actions against an infidel invading and occupying force? Absolutely.

Hell yeah! Strap a bomb on that baby!

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

You hung yourself with that rope.

I'm busy at the moment so I'll keep it short and concise.

I'm not eklipse.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'm busy at the moment so I'll keep it short and concise.

I'm not eklipse.

Damn, you sound so much alike it's a bit confusing. It is interesting, however, that it was a Muslim who first pointed out a similarity between the events in the UK and terrorism.

My comments still stand. The Muslims on MacNN all toe the same line, and won't take any responsibility for the horrible things that are done in the name of Islam. Just admit that a high percentage of your sisters and bretheren in the ME (if not the entire world) endorse terrorism.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Damn, you sound so much alike it's a bit confusing.

Yup, Muslims all look and think the same

[BoomStick]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Retaliatory actions against an infidel invading and occupying force? Absolutely.

We had every right to declare war on islam after 9/11.

Islam struck a glancing blow and we will show what happens when the followers of the false prophet of satan dares to harm even a single one of God's true children.

[ironknee]

people who believe in religion are the devil...er i mean...are just dumb

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yup, Muslims all look and think the same

No, but you two sure sound identical at times.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Or, it could be that the modern Muslim belief system has become corrupt, and is now degenerated into a morass of shameful destruction and perverted ideology?

The Muslim belief system is as intact as it always has been. Unfortunately, you are correct in that some people have chosen to pervert that belief system to their own ends.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

If 20-25% of your faith believes that suicide bombings are OK, then there is something very wrong with your religion, REGARDLESS of how they came to their conclusions. Wiggle all you want, but it's still just a tangled mess.

The process by which people come to their conclusions is always important to regard. To disregard it is to embrace ignorance.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

We had every right to declare war on islam after 9/11.

Islam struck a glancing blow and we will show what happens when the followers of the false prophet of satan dares to harm even a single one of God's true children.

Ok, that's too far. You've lost me with that comment.

"God's true children?" We're all God's true children. Regardless of religion.

War on Islamic terror? Yes. War on Islam? No.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

The Muslim belief system is as intact as it always has been. Unfortunately, you are correct in that some people have chosen to pervert that belief system to their own ends.

The process by which people come to their conclusions is always important to regard. To disregard it is to embrace ignorance.

In as far as studying the process itself, yes. To sympathize and condone, OTOH, is to simply accept that the ends always justify the means. And with stakes this high, they never do.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

My comments still stand. The Muslims on MacNN all toe the same line, and won't take any responsibility for the horrible things that are done in the name of Islam.

Nor should they. People are responsible for their own actions - not the actions of others.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Nor should they. People are responsible for their own actions - not the actions of others.

So much for "one religion united in peace".

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

So much for "one religion united in peace".

Eh?

You believe Muslims should bear some sort of shared culpability for every nut that decides to detonate themselves yelling "Allahu Akbar"?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Eh?

You believe Muslims should bear some sort of shared culpability for every nut that decides to detonate themselves yelling "Allahu Akbar"?

To a degree, yes, I do. Vocalize that those types of people are villains and monsters. Denounce them as pretenders to the faith. Be more proactive than they have in the past.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

To a degree, yes, I do. Vocalize that those types of people are villains and monsters. Denounce them as pretenders to the faith. Be more proactive than they have in the past.

The Muslim Council of Britain has of late been doing a very good job at educating the general public about Islam and in encouraging Britain's Muslims to recognise their responsibilities. I would say that the most important vehicle for informing the public - the media - is failing at following this up. Editors seem to prefer running headlines that scream negativity and have no real substance rather than those that actually indicate something more detailed and progressive.

Which brings me back to von wrangell's earlier point about the media's influence. Recently I've been involved in an organisation based in East London called TELCO which brings together people from all races, colours and religions to improve their communities. We organised an election campaign event that sought to ascertain what each candidate standing for election in that constituency would do for the East London communities. It was a high profile event with a strong media prescence. Yet because it involved two particular candidates who are running against each other there - Oona King and George Galloway - every evening news piece and newspaper report focussed on the fact that the event ran very smoothly, as opposed to a few nights before where the same radical Islamic group featured above had threatened both candidates. Nevermind the fact that this was an event that brought together Christians, Muslims and Jews of all races to call their MPs to account for issues of common interest.

Reductionist reporting is only serving to exacerbate existing tensions and misconceptions, which for the most part are a product of sheer ignorance.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

To a degree, yes, I do. Vocalize that those types of people are villains and monsters. Denounce them as pretenders to the faith. Be more proactive than they have in the past.

Fair enough. I disagree.

People who commit abhorrent acts should be deplored for the fact that they committed an abhorrent act, not because they committed it in the name of one religion or another. To denounce them based on their claimed religious affiliations gives them far more credit and importance than they usually deserve.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

To a degree, yes, I do. Vocalize that those types of people are villains and monsters. Denounce them as pretenders to the faith. Be more proactive than they have in the past.

eklipse already covered most of what I wanted to say(you said what about us sounding the same?) but I'd thought I'd ask you one thing.

Have you been to a couple of mosques lately during Friday prayers?

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Two completely unrelated events, two completely unrelated countries and the list goes on. Try again.

Heh, I didn't know we were just talking about events or countries. I thought you were talking about as a whole.

Not that it matters, it does indeed show how there can be a small group of morons doing bad stuff, with a large group supporting them.

No need to "try again"

Sorry.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Retaliatory actions against an infidel invading and occupying force? Absolutely.

You mean being deluded by lies so they will join in, of course. This is no different than that above.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

To a degree, yes, I do. Vocalize that those types of people are villains and monsters. Denounce them as pretenders to the faith. Be more proactive than they have in the past.

Some do. Most do not.

So my guess is they are too scared of being murdered for speaking up, or they agree.

Either way it's a sad case that that many people feel that way, that they are threatening.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by eklipse

Fair enough. I disagree.

People who commit abhorrent acts should be deplored for the fact that they committed an abhorrent act, not because they committed it in the name of one religion or another. To denounce them based on their claimed religious affiliations gives them far more credit and importance than they usually deserve.

If someone were claiming to be of my faith and were blaspheming my religious beliefs, you bet I'd be pissed. Chickpea, do you think Rumi would stand by and not protest what's currently being done in the name of Islam? Hardly.

Anything other than outright condemnation and ridicule is a cop-out.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

eklipse already covered most of what I wanted to say(you said what about us sounding the same?) but I'd thought I'd ask you one thing.

Have you been to a couple of mosques lately during Friday prayers?

Not just in a western mosque, but publically and vocally. The imams and clerics from around the world (and especially the ME) coming together and derating and denouncing the terrorists as liars masquerading as Muslims.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Let's talk about this. In the Al-Moayad trial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/25/ny...tml?oref=login

Dr. Bernard Haykel is a professor of Islamic Studies at New York University.

He says: "There are a billion plus Muslims in the Arab world, 90 percent of whom support Hamas," he testified. "If they were all terrorists, we would be in dire trouble."

Dr. Haykel says they are not all terrorists. But if they support Hamas, they are terrorist sympathizers, and in many cases, terrorism enablers.

So 90% of a billion-plus is a tiny minority?

This thread is now about majorities of Muslim haters.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

If you have a bushle of Apple's, and 2 of them are rotten.

How long does it take that rotteness to spread?

Ya darn right!

Them KKK must hav' done ya som' good!