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mrtew · Oct 6, 2008, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Hmm... seems like neither HDDVD nor Blu-ray won.
Blu-ray hasn't grown since Jan. 2008.

Yeah it sure seems like the whole excitement about HD was the 'war'. With just Blu-ray in the game it's a nice picture and nice sound but no big deal anymore.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

My guess is that DVDs are good enough, so why plunk $300 down on a Blu-Ray player and rebuy all your DVDs to get a marginally better picture.

I keep reading that kind of thing on this forum over and over. Why would anyone re-buy all their DVDs? They look 3x as good already just by playing them on the Blu-ray player so you'd have to REALLY love a movie to re-buy it on Blu-ray. Only a nut would re-buy all or most of them. The reason for getting a Blu-ray player is for new movies with great effects or animation etc so you don't keep digging yourself even deeper into the old format. Luckily DVD is totally forward compatible. If I could play my old records on my CD player I probably wouldn't have re-bought nearly so many of them as I did and I didn't re-buy all that many!

goMac · Oct 6, 2008, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Microsoft just doesn't seem to care much about DVD playback. It's been out for how long now? Yet it still has at best mediocre DVD playback.

The upscaling is the only thing that's ever made me consider the PS3. I haven't invested much more in my A/V setup because my TV (LN-S4096) has started to age. The black levels aren't great, and I'm out of HDMI inputs. It's a well rounded TV, I just feel like 1080p video could be lost on it. It's still a good HDTV, I just don't know if it's good enough to put money into for an upscaler.

Depending on my income I might upgrade sometime in the next year or two. Those million to one 1080p Samsung plasmas are looking pretty nice, and they're not very expensive. Really, the only question is if my student lifestyle will make me move to a different place in the next year. I'd hate to move a plasma >40"s around, especially since I drive a coupe. Getting the LCD here was painful enough...

exca1ibur · Oct 6, 2008, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

I keep reading that kind of thing on this forum over and over. Why would anyone re-buy all their DVDs? They look 3x as good already just by playing them on the Blu-ray player so you'd have to REALLY love a movie to re-buy it on Blu-ray. Only a nut would re-buy all or most of them. The reason for getting a Blu-ray player is for new movies with great effects or animation etc so you don't keep digging yourself even deeper into the old format. Luckily DVD is totally forward compatible. If I could play my old records on my CD player I probably wouldn't have re-bought nearly so many of them as I did and I didn't re-buy all that many!

Man, If you think DVD looks as good as Blu-ray, I don't know what to say...

There is no need to repurchase your DVDs when you get a Blu-ray player. The SMART thing to do is buy your FUTURE movies on Blu-ray and play your exisiting DVDs you have on the same player. 'backwards compatibility'

Eug · Oct 6, 2008, 09:54 PM

On my 42" LCD from 12 feet, DVD upscaled on my HD DVD player (or my Blu-ray player) looks just fine. On my 90" projector image from 9', it looks usually looks pretty bad, although part of the reason is the Xbox 360's poor upscaling. However, even with a decent upscaler, the image isn't great from DVD.

You know what's really weird?

If I take a movie and encode it from DVD to H.264 using Handbrake, and then stream it to the Xbox 360, it actually often looks much better on the 360 than it does direct from DVD. The upscaling of H.264 Quicktime video seems to be better or something.

goMac · Oct 6, 2008, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

If I take a movie and encode it from DVD to H.264 using Handbrake, and then stream it to the Xbox 360, it actually often looks much better on the 360 than it does direct from DVD. The upscaling of H.264 Quicktime video seems to be better or something.

MPEG2 may be too "heavy" of a format to do a lot of data processing on. But I've noticed this too when I started ripping my DVD collection in.

The 360 doesn't play back rips as well as an upscaling DVD player, but they still look better.

Eug · Oct 6, 2008, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

MPEG2 may be too "heavy" of a format to do a lot of data processing on.

Eh?

I suspect it's just because they use a completely different set of code for DVD playback vs. non-DVD video playback, and one set of code is just much better than the other.

Similarly, if I play high bitrate HD DVD H.264 on the 360, it's as smooth as silk. If I play 12 Mbps Quicktime H.264 on the 360, there are frequent pauses in the video. I already know that the H.264 code for Quicktime H.264 is separate from the HD DVD H.264 code, so that makes sense (although isn't ideal).

goMac · Oct 6, 2008, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Eh?

I suspect it's just because they use a completely different set of code for DVD playback vs. non-DVD video playback, and one set of code is just much better than the other.

Similarly, if I play high bitrate HD DVD H.264 on the 360, it's as smooth as silk. If I play 12 Mbps Quicktime H.264 on the 360, there are frequent pauses in the video. I already know that the H.264 code for Quicktime H.264 is separate from the HD DVD H.264 code, so that makes sense (although isn't ideal).

What I meant is that an MPEG2 frame or set of frames are going to be larger in memory, so they may be "heavier" to push around the system.

Generally, the up-converting routines for all video content should be the same. Whatever the format, they're all going to be dumped into a bitmap, at which point any algorithm should work on that bitmap data. You just need different codecs to dump the frames into bitmap buffers.

The XBox specifically would take those uncompressed bitmaps and pass it through it's ANA co-processor, which is where I become really baffled as to why the XBox's upconversion sucks. It has a dedicated upconversion chip. Perhaps the ANA chip really isn't that great.

My idea is that because MPEG2 frames may be slower to pull from disk, the XBox may cut corners compared to MPEG4 upscaling.

mrtew · Oct 6, 2008, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

Man, If you think DVD looks as good as Blu-ray, I don't know what to say...
There is no need to repurchase your DVDs when you get a Blu-ray player. The SMART thing to do is buy your FUTURE movies on Blu-ray and play your exisiting DVDs you have on the same player. 'backwards compatibility'

I think we are in total agreement even though you sound like you think you are disagreeing with me.

jokell82 · Oct 13, 2008, 06:58 AM

Samsung BD-P1500 (profile 1.1) to hit $150 for Black Friday:
http://gizmodo.com/5062492/dealzmodo...n-black-friday

Peter · Oct 13, 2008, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

How big's your TV, and how close do you sit?

The further you sit, the harder it is to tell, particularly with say a 42" TV or smaller and higher quality DVDs.

32" 1080p and sitting 8 or 10 feet from screen ...

Eug · Oct 13, 2008, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Peter

32" 1080p and sitting 8 or 10 feet from screen ...

I find that HD helps things a bit, esp. if you're close up to the TV. However, at 9', it doesn't help that much, at least compared to good quality progressive scan DVD.

I had a 34" CRT and HD helped a bit from 6' but even then, it didn't help that much.

I now have a 26" LCD and HD helps from a bit further away, but again, it doesn't help that much.

Originally Posted by jokell82

Samsung BD-P1500 (profile 1.1) to hit $150 for Black Friday:
http://gizmodo.com/5062492/dealzmodo...n-black-friday

That's a pretty damn good deal. I'm hoping for Boxing Day (Dec. 26) to get a second player for around that price point. We have no Black Friday sales here in Kanuckistan.

jokell82 · Oct 13, 2008, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Peter

32" 1080p and sitting 8 or 10 feet from screen ...

That's why you can't tell the difference between a DVD and a Blu-Ray. At that screen size and distance, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between 480p and anything hi-def. At that size you'd want to sit at about 5 feet away. Sitting 10 feet away you'd need a 42" set minimum, and a 50" set to see any benefit from 1080p.

Super Mario · 02:29 PM

Wowawowee this thread still running and jokell still talking nonsense.

jokell82 · Oct 13, 2008, 11:16 AM

Here's some more nonsense for ya:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/09...o-screen-size/

Cold Warrior · Oct 13, 2008, 11:17 AM

This is a nonsense-free zone. Nonsense = incitement and personal issues (which go to private message, BTW).

Dakar V · Oct 13, 2008, 11:18 AM

Wow, what a sig. That's worse than this thread being alive by a long shot.

Super Mario · 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

Wow, what a sig. That's worse than this thread being alive by a long shot.

There, new sig and relevant.

olePigeon · Oct 13, 2008, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by mrtew

I keep reading that kind of thing on this forum over and over. Why would anyone re-buy all their DVDs? They look 3x as good already just by playing them on the Blu-ray player so you'd have to REALLY love a movie to re-buy it on Blu-ray. Only a nut would re-buy all or most of them. The reason for getting a Blu-ray player is for new movies with great effects or animation etc so you don't keep digging yourself even deeper into the old format. Luckily DVD is totally forward compatible. If I could play my old records on my CD player I probably wouldn't have re-bought nearly so many of them as I did and I didn't re-buy all that many!

I'd only rebuy a few of mine, most would be the big sci-fi movies like Star Trek, Alien, etc. However, I wouldn't rebuy Princess Bride, Goonies, Breakfast Club, Rob Roy, & Ronin because there's absolutely no need for it to be in HD.

Since I'm in no rush to buy HD anything, I'm going to continue to wait. For whatever reason, I'm holding out hopes that Blu-Ray will go the way of UMDs and I'll get the relatively cheap, region free, HD format I would have had with HD-DVD in the first place.

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 13, 2008, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

HDMI is overrated. I actually hate it.

I love love love HDMI. Yes it can fall out easily but I only move my TV to yank cables anyway. It saved me so much space and took 5 cables down to one.

It has neat auto power on features and can command your other equipment.

I don't have any audio sync issues.

olePigeon · Oct 13, 2008, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I love love love HDMI. Yes it can fall out easily but I only move my TV to yank cables anyway. It saved me so much space and took 5 cables down to one.

It has neat auto power on features and can command your other equipment.

I don't have any audio sync issues.

Does your receiver/amp have HDMI?

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 13, 2008, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Does your receiver/amp have HDMI?

Yup, just got an awesome sony one with 4 HDMI in for $450 CAN.

olePigeon · Oct 13, 2008, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Yup, just got an awesome sony one with 4 HDMI in for $450 CAN.

Then you won't experience sync issues. It only happens if you use HDMI for video and something else for the audio.

brassplayersrock² · Oct 13, 2008, 05:14 PM

what's the model of your receiver?

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 13, 2008, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²

what's the model of your receiver?

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...gon=&langid=EN

jokell82 · Oct 13, 2008, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...gon=&langid=EN

At that price range I'd recommend a Yamaha RX-V663 over a Sony.

brassplayersrock² · Oct 13, 2008, 06:38 PM

thanks sprinkles

Eug · Oct 13, 2008, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Then you won't experience sync issues. It only happens if you use HDMI for video and something else for the audio.

That's not true. Sync is heavily dependent on the TV's video processing speed. That's why receivers have built-in audio delay circuits.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...gon=&langid=EN

Heh. I just ordered the 520 for my home office. Sonys aren't necessarily top tier receivers, but they're definitely a good bang for the buck. It's $189 for the 520, which works out to about US$165.

ghporter · Oct 13, 2008, 09:42 PM

That's the receiver I've had my eye on for my "next" setup. Nice selection of features, good source switching, and affordable. VERY affordable if you get it where Eug did!

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 13, 2008, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

At that price range I'd recommend a Yamaha RX-V663 over a Sony.

with 2 HDMI ports when I have 4?

Eug · Oct 13, 2008, 09:50 PM

Precisely. I used to really like Yamaha receivers, but they skimp out on the ports, so I've gotten Sonys lately. Like I said, good bang for the buck.

I think the Sonys are underpowered though. Their 100 W is nowhere what 100 W gets you in a Yamaha. That said, I don't care, since I don't max out the volume my Sony. Others might care though. Sometimes if I turn the volume up, I'm close to maxing it out. On similarly rated Yamahas I've tried with similar speakers, I've never even come close.

Peter · Oct 14, 2008, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

That's why you can't tell the difference between a DVD and a Blu-Ray. At that screen size and distance, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between 480p and anything hi-def. At that size you'd want to sit at about 5 feet away. Sitting 10 feet away you'd need a 42" set minimum, and a 50" set to see any benefit from 1080p.

we can definitely tell the difference between upscaled DVD and Blu-Ray. Its far crisper, but DVD still looks very good. Blu-Ray simply looks jaw dropping.

Peter · Oct 14, 2008, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

Heh. I just ordered the 520 for my home office. Sonys aren't necessarily top tier receivers, but they're definitely a good bang for the buck. It's $189 for the 520, which works out to about US$165.

Hah, we too just ordered that receiver!

Can anyone recommend some decent 2.1 speakers? I know that 5.1 or 7.1 are all the rage, but I really find 2.1 fine, and I cannot be arsed to sort cables around my lounge.

Eug · Oct 14, 2008, 07:17 AM

What about doing a 3.1 system? Coincidentally, the STR-DG520 in my home office will be used as a 2.0 system. (My main system is 5.1.) I want to do 3.0, but I don't have enough room for the centre channel speaker.

There is a $50 HD DVD player hooked up there. I guess I'll add Blu-ray when it hits commoditized pricing too.

Peter · Oct 14, 2008, 08:24 AM

3.1? is the third speaker central? neat.

jokell82 · Oct 14, 2008, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

with 2 HDMI ports when I have 4?

For the quality of audio processing I'd rather run the Yamaha with a switch than a Sony without one.

Eug · Oct 14, 2008, 11:10 AM

I've long since decided that the "audio processing" of Yamaha is no better than Sonys unless you're talking about those simulated environment modes. However, I never use any of those modes so it's irrelevant. I always just run plain DD or DTS or whatever without additional processing. And to my ear, the Sonys and Yamahas sound exactly the same at low to moderate volumes.

The main problem with the Sonys is that they're underpowered. With a 5.1 setup and inefficient speakers, even the 800-series Sonys can be pushed to the max in a large room. IOW, even for consumer use, the Sonys can be inadequate at high volumes. Luckily for me, I don't have this problem in any of my Sony setups.

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 14, 2008, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

For the quality of audio processing I'd rather run the Yamaha with a switch than a Sony without one.

From my research the Yamaha doesn't seem to have any better audio than the sony in that price range. Yamaha is also cheap with the HDMI. Not spending another $150 for an add on HDMI switcher the day I buy a new receiver for the first time in 9 years.

cjrivera · Oct 14, 2008, 12:20 PM

I've had the ony STRDG720 since April and it does a great job. I also bought it because of the number of HDMI inputs and the price.

jokell82 · Oct 14, 2008, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

From my research the Yamaha doesn't seem to have any better audio than the sony in that price range. Yamaha is also cheap with the HDMI. Not spending another $150 for an add on HDMI switcher the day I buy a new receiver for the first time in 9 years.

I've listened to both models and I preferred the Yamaha. Whatever, I'm just offering up an alternative. And fyi, I bought a switch for $35:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

analogue SPRINKLES · Oct 14, 2008, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

I've listened to both models and I preferred the Yamaha. Whatever, I'm just offering up an alternative. And fyi, I bought a switch for $35:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

Considering it is only HDMI revision 1.2a I am not surprised it only cost $35.

How did you listen to both systems? In the store?

Eug · Oct 14, 2008, 02:36 PM

Well, no Blu-ray on the MacBook Pros. Not a huge surprise I suppose, but I was a little surprised at Jobs' diss of Blu-ray.

"You know, Blu-ray is a bag of hurt."

"The licensing is so complex, we're waiting until things settle down before we burden our customers with the cost of the licensing and the cost of the drives."

Dakar V · Oct 14, 2008, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Well, no Blu-ray on the MacBook Pros. Not a huge surprise I suppose, but I was a little surprised at Jobs' diss of Blu-ray.

"You know, Blu-ray is a bag of hurt."

"The licensing is so complex, we're waiting until things settle down before we burden our customers with the cost of the licensing and the cost of the drives."

It made sense to me... What am I missing?

Eug · Oct 14, 2008, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

It made sense to me... What am I missing?

It makes sense, but it's still a diss to call it a "bag of hurt". Remember, Apple sits on the BDA Board of Directors.

Personally, I'm glad. BDA's licencing rules are draconian from what I hear.

mrtew · Oct 14, 2008, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

"The licensing is so complex, we're waiting until things settle down before we burden our customers with the cost of the licensing and the cost of the drives." [/i]

Originally Posted by Dakar V

It made sense to me... What am I missing?

How about making it an option so the customer can decide to burden himself or not? And how much is the cost? Windows computers have them. right? It must be known.

Person Man · Oct 14, 2008, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

It makes sense, but it's still a diss to call it a "bag of hurt". Remember, Apple sits on the BDA Board of Directors.

Personally, I'm glad. BDA's licencing rules are draconian from what I hear.

Anyone ever consider that part of the "bag of hurt" might be "we don't want to sell out to Hollywood like Microsoft did and gum up the internals of Mac OS X with overly restrictive DRM that doesn't provide any real protection from pirates?"

Shaddim · Oct 14, 2008, 07:11 PM

or

"We don't really want to pay anything to use BR, so we'll wait to see if someone will throw us a bone."

Dakar V · Oct 14, 2008, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

How about making it an option so the customer can decide to burden himself or not? And how much is the cost? Windows computers have them. right? It must be known.

I think he's also implying it's a burden for them to sort everything out. And I don't think they like the terms.

Brien · Oct 14, 2008, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

or

"We don't really want to pay anything to use BR, so we'll wait to see if someone will throw us a bone."

Yeah, that and HD iTunes don't really give them an incentive. Nor does having to rewrite the kernel for HDCP. We may never see proper BD support, or at least not in the next year. But maybe I'm wrong, and the new Mac Pro will have it. The new ACD has displayport so it's doable.

Peter · Oct 15, 2008, 01:29 PM

interesting:

residentEvil · Oct 15, 2008, 01:42 PM

I updated all my receivers recently too. Got rid of an older Sony in the living room and the Onkyo SR803 in the theater. Replaced both with the Sony DG720s. I'll pick up another PS3 at xmas time for the theater too. And around this time next year, will replace the theater 720p projector with a 1080p one.

For the living room; i went with the Polk Audio SurroundBar and Polk subwoofer (theater is already all Polk so I stuck with them).

I got new remotes too; living room and theater now have Harmony 670 remotes. Really nice.

I now have 1080p in the living room (40" XBR4, 5.1), main bedroom (22" Samsung, 2.0) and game room (32" Samsung, 2.0); 720p in the theater (110", 5.1). Garage is stuck with a 27" tube