[starman]

BB now lists Thunderbird as having the player. I took a screenshot. If you really, REALLY need me to post it, I will.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

OK, let me repeat once again the question that I've been asking the HD-DVD side: if price was the most important factor, why hasn't HD-DVD already won? The price gap between the two formats is only going to get smaller from now on.

I thought I answered this earlier, but maybe I didn't.

Price is one of many important factors. Even if it were the most important factor (which arguably it may or may not be), there are various other factors that are important:

Price (HD DVD is decidedly cheaper for the hardware, although some of the software costs a bit more - combo discs.)
Quality (Both have excellent video and audio quality, except that BR put out some truly awful titles, like The Fifth Element.)
Studio support (Historically Blu-ray's advantage, at least on paper.)
Features (HD DVD has the advantage IMO, because of the mandatory specifications. Even low end players get the pertinent features)
Trojan horse penetration (There is essentially none on the HD DVD side. There is a significant amount with the PS3.)

Now, it is my impression that Blu-ray's main mode of attack was studio support and trojan horse penetration. However, that failed to win the war immediately because HD DVD had the price (and feature) advantage, and because the studio support on paper didn't translate into actual available titles. Fox was essentially a no-show, and Disney wasn't releasing much either. Furthermore, the Trojan horse PS3 launched late and at too high a cost. Blu-ray's one-two punch thus failed to connect hard enough to get the knockout.

Meanwhile, HD DVD has continued on its price lowering and in the meantime has been able to win more studio support, at the expense of Blu-ray. With the Trojan horse PS3 becoming less important in the war, HD DVD is pouring it on where it competes.

However, this is not a one battle thing, despite what Sony might might have hyped with the PS3. This is going to be an ongoing thing until at least 2009.

Remember, I've always said that Blu-ray going in had the advantage, and it was their fight to lose. Well, they haven't lost yet (despite what Enderle says), but it seems like they've gone out of their way to make it hard on themselves on most fronts.

Now, as for price, I will reiterate that I think it's very important. So much so that the BDA finally understands this.... They wouldn't have bothered with lowering the price of the PS3 or getting Funai on board otherwise.

[Chongo]

Not every one has a 1080p set. And should we be suing all the manufacturers who are still designing and making NEW 720p sets? Samsung and othere are selling new sets that are 720p. My 46" Sammy is 720p. Since when is 720P not "FULL HD"? It's a marketing ploy and there are too many articles on the web to list that say unless you have a huge room to put that >60" set in you can't tell the difference anyway.
Is there really a 1080p advantage? - Joystiq

Everyone is hearing a lot about 1080p resolution these days. Sony is promoting the resolution as a primary feature in the PlayStation 3 and Microsoft recently added the functionality to the Xbox 360. All of these big resolution numbers are nice and all, but is 1080p really all that it's cracked up to be?

According to the Imaging Science Foundation -- a professional organization that trains TV calibration techniques to technicians -- the three most important factors of a television's image quality are contrast ratio, color saturation, and color accuracy. Resolution ranks fourth and we're surprised that other important factors such as response time didn't rank above resolution. Tests done at CNET confirm the relative non-importance of 1080p over 720p; they state they find only minor differences in the two HD resolutions -- and only in very specific scenarios.

If professionals who spend much of their time reviewing HDTV sets have difficulties telling the difference between 720p and 1080p, will the general public have any reason to spend the extra dough on a 1080p set? Even if a person could notice the difference, would they care if they can see individual nose hairs when they are when being shot at in Resistance: Fall of Man or Gears of War? With the near zero difference the additional pixels make, Microsoft and Sony are sure spending a lot of money -- and driving up development costs -- for a feature few will truly appreciate.

[icruise]

Eug -- That sounds like a pretty good overview, and supports your view (as I remember it) that this will be a prolonged fight. My comment was addressed more to the people who say "as soon as HD-DVD gets a sub-$200 player, it'll all be over!" I won't deny that cost is an important factor, but it's not as if most people are sitting around waiting for one format or the other to hit a magic price point. By the far the biggest problems faced by both formats are a general disinterest in HD movies on the part of the general public, and widespread uncertainty about which format is going to win. These issues aren't just going to go away.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

Yawn.

Any GOOD developer would never IN A MILLION YEARS write that code more than once. It's called libraries.

So you're in favor of increasing the code base size and having longer debugging times?

[Super Mario]

The 360 and MS has always been open to Blu-ray

Moore: Blu-ray Xbox 360 add-on possible - Xbox 360 News at GameSpot

Also, Japan's chief of Xbox operations, Yoshihiro Maruyama said no 360 games will ever ship on HD-DVD or Blu-ray because the system doesn't support game loading from an external drive. X Box 360 games are stuck with less than 10GBs of space to use.

If Blu-ray keeps winning by so much and games keep getting larger, MS will have to ship X Box 360's with built in Blu-ray (and screw over all those old 360s with DVD).

[*TL]

Originally Posted by Eng

Let me ask you an honest question.

If someone was hot to buy today, I would have no hesitation recommending a 1.0 BD player. After Nov. 1, I would recommend paying the extra $50 for 1.1 capabilities. If the lay of the land is still the same as it is today after Nov. 1, I would recommend someone who was price sensitive stretch to pay the extra $100 to buy the 1.0 BD player over the HD player.

[*TL]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

If Blu-ray keeps winning by so much and games keep getting larger, MS will have to ship X Box 360's with built in Blu-ray (and screw over all those old 360s with DVD).

Depending on who you believe, GTA IV is postponed because of the need to squeeze it all on to one DVD since the 360 version doesn't have the PS3's ability to use next-gen discs. (Or you can go with the pro-360 side who says the delay is b/c the PS3 is harder to program.)

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Apple has already officially stated they are format neutral.

Another lie. Apple is only format neutral for pro applications which have to, for damn obvious reasons, support output to every format possible (from VHS all the way up to 8K digital cinema and film transfer).

The only next gen disc format ever to be mentioned by Steve Jobs has been Blu-ray, still to expensive to put in most Macs. Apple has a problem here because of semantics and marketing. It labels a DVD rewriter a "Superdrive". It can only really replace all Superdrives at once and not just at the high end otherwise they'll have to change the name of Superdrives in the low end models, because they won't exactly look very super anymore.

Anyway, Eug, when is your lying going to stop? Please don't by an means. It's amusing watching you and goMac pat each other on the back for 56 pages and have nothing to show for it.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by *TL 

Depending on who you believe, GTA IV is postponed because of the need to squeeze it all on to one DVD since the 360 version doesn't have the PS3's ability to use next-gen discs. (Or you can go with the pro-360 side who says the delay is b/c the PS3 is harder to program.)

Yes and according to those lying fanboys goMac and Eug, GTAIV will be better on a DVD after all that compression and being forced to download levels from the net whenever you complete a section.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by *TL 

Depending on who you believe, GTA IV is postponed because of the need to squeeze it all on to one DVD since the 360 version doesn't have the PS3's ability to use next-gen discs. (Or you can go with the pro-360 side who says the delay is b/c the PS3 is harder to program.)

Or the simpler explanation is neither: It's just not finished yet.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Yes and according to those lying fanboys goMac and Eug, GTAIV will be better on a DVD after all that compression and being forced to download levels from the net whenever you complete a section.

Being forced to download levels from the net? Where'd you get that?

The exclusive downloadable content will be available in March. For XBox only. No one is forcing you to download it, the PS3 simply won't have the content.

It's pretty obvious that people who want to play GTAIV will want to play it on the Xbox given a choice.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Yes and according to those lying fanboys goMac and Eug, GTAIV will be better on a DVD after all that compression and being forced to download levels from the net whenever you complete a section.

You mean the levels that won't be available for the PS3?

Boy, someone is going to be one disappointed kid when he buys GTA for the PS3...

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Anyway, Eug, when is your lying going to stop? Please don't by an means. It's amusing watching you and goMac pat each other on the back for 56 pages and have nothing to show for it.

Somehow I just imagine a kid typing rabidly in his mom's dark basement, surrounded by soda cans, muttering to himself...

When did Apple clarify that they are neutral except for consumer land, Super Mario? If you could link us to the press release that would be great. Thanks.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Being forced to download levels from the net? Where'd you get that?

The exclusive downloadable content will be available in March. For XBox only. No one is forcing you to download it, the PS3 simply won't have the content.

They are levels that could have been made available on disc instead of online. The 360 doesn't have the disc capacity so online was the only choice. You'll be forced to download the levels if you want to complete the game. The only reason the PS3 doesn't have those extra maps and levels is because the exclusive content was paid for (see link on last page) by MS.

My point stands in relation to what was said earlier about the X Box 360 having a problem with larger and larger games.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

They are levels that could have been made available on disc instead of online. The 360 doesn't have the disc capacity so online was the only choice. You'll be forced to download the levels if you want to complete the game. The only reason the PS3 doesn't have those extra maps and levels is because the exclusive content was paid for (see link on last page) by MS.

My point stands in relation to what was said earlier about the X Box 360 having a problem with larger and larger games.

The reason the levels aren't on the disk is because they're coming out after the game is release. When you come up with a time machine so they can get the levels on the disc, let me know.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

So you're in favor of increasing the code base size and having longer debugging times?

Says who? You get nothing for free in programming. You should know that.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by goMac 

When did Apple clarify that they are neutral except for consumer land, Super Mario? If you could link us to the press release that would be great. Thanks.

I got a better idea. You correct Eug when he comes out with a howler like Apple being neutral when they're on the Blu-ray board and Jobs has only ever mentioned Blu-ray during his keynotes. Jobs is also what, biggest shareholder at Disney who are also on the Blu-ray board. Merci.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

Says who? You get nothing for free in programming. You should know that.

So you're saying we should all go program in Carbon? I'm not getting your point. HD-DVD is providing for free functionality. That means less code to debug for you, the programmer. When you write your own library, you have to maintain and debug that library, not to mention you have to write the library in the first place.

[starman]

That means less POSSIBLE code to debug. Shall I make a long list of Cocoa bugs? Gee, HOW DO YOU FIX COCOCA BUGS, goMac?


YOU CAN'T.

So if there's a bug IN THE ROM, what do you do?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I got a better idea. You correct Eug when he comes out with a howler like Apple being neutral when they're on the Blu-ray board and Jobs has only ever mentioned Blu-ray during his keynotes. Jobs is also what, biggest shareholder at Disney who are also on the Blu-ray board. Merci.

You've got no proof to back up what you're saying. Apple has publicly said they are neutral. Until you come up with something that Apple has publicly said to counter Apple's own press release, you're grasping for straws.

Not to mention, we still have not seen one Bluray drive shipped from Apple.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

That means less POSSIBLE code to debug. Shall I make a long list of Cocoa bugs? Gee, HOW DO YOU FIX COCOCA BUGS, goMac?


YOU CAN'T.

Then gee, you can roll your own code. So if there are bugs, you write a few functions, as opposed to having to write a lot of functions for Bluray.

Do you program in Cocoa or Carbon?

Originally Posted by starman 

So if there's a bug IN THE ROM, what do you do?

Fortunately Toshiba thought of that. All HD-DVD players have to be able to update their firmware over the internet. It's mandatory for the format.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

They are levels that could have been made available on disc instead of online. The 360 doesn't have the disc capacity so online was the only choice. You'll be forced to download the levels if you want to complete the game. The only reason the PS3 doesn't have those extra maps and levels is because the exclusive content was paid for (see link on last page) by MS.

My point stands in relation to what was said earlier about the X Box 360 having a problem with larger and larger games.

Not the point at all. The Xbox levels are extra content which will be developed AFTER the game has been released and has nothing to do with disk capacity, but rather that the Xbox version will have a continuous stream of extra content which the PS3 won't have.

And when you say "You'll be forced to download the levels if you want to complete the game.", what you are really saying is that if you have a PS3 you won't be able to complete the game at all.


Yes, the extra content was paid for by Microsoft to circumvent the deal Rockstar did to make GTAIV not platform exclusive. The extra content will however mean that the Xbox will be the platform to go for people who want the full GTAIV experience.

Note that I'm not condoning any of this, just simply stating the facts.

[Chongo]

I have one question that will stir the pot. I see all the adverts for new games coming out. They are the Xbox360 and the Playstation 2. Why are the new titles for the PS2 and not the PS3?.

[pooka]

Originally Posted by starman 

That means less POSSIBLE code to debug. Shall I make a long list of Cocoa bugs? Gee, HOW DO YOU FIX COCOCA BUGS, goMac?


YOU CAN'T.

So if there's a bug IN THE ROM, what do you do?

Well, obviously I should listen to the market, abandon the inferior format/platform and start using .Net. I mean, it does have the sales momentum.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

I have one question that will stir the pot. I see all the adverts for new games coming out. They are the Xbox360 and the Playstation 2. Why are the new titles for the PS2 and not the PS3?.

Which games are you talking about? In any case, the reason there are still games coming out for the PS2 (while original Xbox development is dead) is that the PS2 has a huge installed base. By the way, shouldn't we take discussion of purely game related topics to another thread?

[TETENAL]

It's not games and not movies that matters to consumers. It's storage size. And 50 GB for BluRay vs. 25 GB for HD may make the difference between getting your home folder backed up to one disk or not. That's why consumers want BluRay to win. Those who buy HD regardless are just unnecessarily prolonging the format war and are an annoyance for the ones in the know.

And to those who claim GTA will be larger on XBOX: How do you know that the PS3 version will not be bigger on disk in the first place? The XBOX-downloads may make it the larger game over all or not, but you can't tell yet.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

It's not games and not movies that matters to consumers. It's storage size. And 50 GB for BluRay vs. 25 GB for HD may make the difference between getting your home folder backed up to one disk or not. That's why consumers want BluRay to win. Those who buy HD regardless are just unnecessarily prolonging the format war and are an annoyance for the ones in the know.

Well, I suspect the real home computer comparison is more likely to be 25 GB vs. 15 GB. This is still significant however in terms of data backup storage.

Nobody is denying that Blu-ray has the storage size advantage. However, this has little bearing on the movie format war, since both 30 GB and 50 GB discs produce stellar video and audio quality for movies. If BD actually produced better looking movies then you'd have a point, but that is not the case.

P.S. My home folder is 88 GB. Oh well, I guess both HD DVD and Blu-ray are useless to me.

[starman]

Wrong. 50 GB makes a HUGE difference for lossless audio.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by pooka 

Well, obviously I should listen to the market, abandon the inferior format/platform and start using .Net. I mean, it does have the sales momentum.

No, it's a stupid argument. If you run into a bug in Cocoa, you can pretty much always write a workaround in Cocoa itself. Same holds true for iHD. If you follow his logic, we should all be programming in assembly rolling our own OS's for each of our programs, just so we can deal with any bug we run into.

Originally Posted by starman 

Wrong. 50 GB makes a HUGE difference for lossless audio.

Honestly, I doubt anyone here has a home theater that is of enough quality to be able to tell the difference between compressed and lossless audio. It's not like HD-DVD uses 64kps compression here. (It's actually around 300kps per channel on average if you must know, which is pretty much CD quality. That means for the average 120 minute movie, the audio track is only around 1.5 gigs).

[starman]

I do, and I can.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

I do, and I can.

What lossless/lossy sources where you comparing?

1.5 mbps is CD quality, but HD-DVD supports up to 3 mpbs, and has more than enough space to allow for 3mbps audio tracks. You're saying you're going to hear the difference between a 600bps audio track and a lossless audio track?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by starman 

Wrong. 50 GB makes a HUGE difference for lossless audio.

Not really, unless you want to stick with using PCM audio. Remember, many HD DVDs already come with TrueHD lossless multichannel audio:

The Phantom of the Opera
Training Day
Constantine
Troy
The Perfect Storm
The Wicker Man
End of Days
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (isolated music-only track)
Batman Begins
V for Vendetta
The Ant Bully
Superman Returns
Lady in the Water
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (UK only)
Clerks II
Pulse
Nine Inch Nails - Beside You in Time
Poseidon
The Departed
Happy Feet
The World's Fastest Indian
Feast
School for Scoundrels
Alpha Dog
Letters from Iwo Jima
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Black Christmas
Harsh Times
District B13
Blood Diamond
The War
Lost City
Nutty Professor II: The Klumps
Purple Rain
Royal Space Force—The Wings of Honneamise (Japan Only)
Patlabor The Movie (Japan Only)
Darkman
300
Blue Planet (IMAX)
TMNT (2007)
Dawn of the Dead(Unrated Director's Cut)
Notting Hill
Patlabor 2 The Movie (Japan Only)
Royal Space Force—The Wings of Honneamise
We Are Marshall (release on September 18)
Viva Las Vegas (release on September 18)
Jailhouse Rock (release on September 18)
Elizabeth (film) (release on September 18)
For Love of the Game (release on September 18)
The Last Starfighter (release on September 18)
Cat People (1982 film) (release on September 25)
Patch Adams (film) (release on September 25)
The Getaway (1994 film) (release on September 25)
Next (release on September 25)
Evening (release on September 25)
Top Gun (release on October 2)
Evan Almighty (release on October 9)
Twilight Zone: The Movie (release on October 9)
The Reaping (release on October 16)
2001: A Space Odyssey (release on October 23)
A Clockwork Orange (release on October 23)
Eyes Wide Shut (release on October 23)
The Shining (release on October 23)
Inside Man (release on October 23)
Seed of Chucky (release on October 23)
Carlito's Way (release on October 23)
Carlito's Way: Rise to Power (release on October 23)
Pride & Prejudice (release on November 13)
Tremors (release on November 20)
Battlestar Galactica: Season One (release on December 4)
Manilow Live!
Heart: Alive In Seattle
Nature's Colors With The World's Greatest Music

[starman]

TrueHD lossless audio doesn't always mean 24-bit. PCM does.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by starman 

TrueHD lossless audio doesn't always mean 24-bit. PCM does.

No it doesn't. Where did you get that idea? Many Blu-ray discs are 16-bit.

For example: Blood Diamond

48kHz/16-bit/4.6mbps

[starman]

I thought PCM was always 24 bit. I probably saw a lot of TrueHD 16 and PCM 24 on the same titles.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

What lossless/lossy sources where you comparing?

1.5 mbps is CD quality, but HD-DVD supports up to 3 mpbs, and has more than enough space to allow for 3mbps audio tracks. You're saying you're going to hear the difference between a 600bps audio track and a lossless audio track?

Not quite accurate.

HD DVD supports up to 3 Mbps for Dolby Digital Plus.
However, for TrueHD, it supports up to 18 Mbps. (Not that anyone would use that for movies.)

Originally Posted by starman 

I thought PCM was always 24 bit. I probably saw a lot of TrueHD 16 and PCM 24 on the same titles.

PCM can be anything. CDs are 16 bit PCM for example.

Anyways, I doubt I could tell the difference. I'm perfectly happy with 16-bit lossless. Actually, I'd have no problems with lossy 1.5 Mbps DD+ either, which is what Universal uses for its non-TrueHD tracks. I think Warner usually uses 640 Kbps DD+ (or DD) for its non-TrueHD tracks. It also sounds fine, but there you've got less breathing room.

BTW, also remember that some of the original masters aren't even 24-bit so on those, 24-bit would be pointless even theoretically.

----

P.S. Sharp will be announcing a Blu-ray player next week. $499. I don't know what profile but I'm guessing 1.0.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Not quite accurate.

HD DVD supports up to 3 Mbps for Dolby Digital Plus.
However, for TrueHD, it supports up to 18 Mbps. (Not that anyone would use that for movies.)

Right, 3 Mbs is standard, but there is a high bitrate option (which is compatible with the higher end players) that is 6 Mbs. Now I'm trying to find where I read that...

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Nobody is denying that Blu-ray has the storage size advantage. However, this has little bearing on the movie format war

Consumers don't care about movies particularly. They choose the format that gives them the most storage size for their own use (e. g. backup).

[Brien]

I'm sure the CE companies are just so happy that the players are sub-$300 in the second year of existence.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You've got no proof to back up what you're saying. Apple has publicly said they are neutral.

OMFG this guy is saying I have no proof Jobs has only ever mentioned Blu-ray in his keynotes and without a source he says Apple "has publicly said they are neutral.". What a load of coblers. These HD-DVD guys have been lying so much ever since it was revealed Blu-ray sales are hammering the competition.

[Super Mario]

Steve Jobs official support:
Blu-ray Disc Association Welcomes Apple to Its Board of Directors

“Apple is pleased to join the Blu-ray Disc Association board as part of our efforts to drive consumer adoption of HD,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs.”

So much for neutral.

This was way back in 2005 at a Pixar conference call.

MacDailyNews - Steve Jobs: Apple iTunes sold 125,000 Pixar videos in 1st month (Pixar Q3 05 conference call)

- Jobs: right now it looks like Blu-ray will win, but nothing's certain, yet

That was two years ago and Blu-ray is still winning.

[Eug]

Those quotes are the best. Thanks for posting them, because they help support Apple's official statement of format neutrality.

“Apple is pleased to join the Blu-ray Disc Association board as part of our efforts to drive consumer adoption of HD,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs.”

Very carefully worded. Neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray is even mentioned. That must have stung the Blu-ray PR guys hard. Even when they join the BDA, they won't endorse it.

- Jobs: right now it looks like Blu-ray will win, but nothing's certain, yet

Another ringing endorsement for Blu-ray.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray is even mentioned.

Bizarro. If you believe what you just said you could very well be infected by a disease that causes a lethal combination of stupidity, delusion and a belief in your own lies. Time to maintain the quarantine so your disease won't spread and infect others.

[icruise]

You're both wrong. Apple hasn't really come out and said that they are format neutral, and neither have they said that they are going to be exclusively backing Blu-ray (even though many people jumped to that conclusion when they joined the Blu-ray board). The fact of the matter is that so little evidence to support either position that anyone trying to prove that Apple supports one format or the other has to resort to interpreting quotes from old speeches or press releases. You're just arguing in circles until Apple says something NEW about the format war.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

You're both wrong. Apple hasn't really come out and said that they are format neutral, and neither have they said that they are going to be exclusively backing Blu-ray (even though many people jumped to that conclusion when they joined the Blu-ray board). The fact of the matter is that so little evidence to support either position that anyone trying to prove that Apple supports one format or the other has to resort to interpreting quotes from old speeches or press releases. You're just arguing in circles until Apple says something NEW about the format war.

It's already been posted in this thread, several times actually. Apple has formally and officially stated they are format neutral. Apple's press release on the subject (which came AFTER the press release about them joining the BDA), specifically states they support BOTH.

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

I really don't see how it gets any clearer than that. Furthermore, no press release since then has indicated otherwise, and like we've already said a bazillion times in this thread, Apple continues to support HD DVD in its software.

So, Apple itself says it's format neutral, has never said otherwise, yet some people still refuse to believe it. It's all very strange.

That may change in the future, but as of August 29, 2007, that is Apple's official position.

[icruise]

Yes yes yes. I know about that. For crying out loud, I've quoted that press release myself! My point is that don't see the word "neutral" there, or ANY indication that they will support both formats equally. What does it mean to say that Apple is neutral, anyway? The main way that Apple would support one format or the other is by including it in their hardware. Is it your position that they would the option for both? Or do you think that they will not include either until a clear winner emerges?

If by "neutral" you mean "won't choose either side and won't even given an indication which side they favor" then maybe I agree with you.

[Super Mario]

Except that press release is for a pro application. Eug has to be reminded a million times that pro apps have to support every output medium for the sake of something called "productivity". HD-DVD will never be built in a Mac. Jobs is on recorded, quoted above at the Pixar conference and earlier, that the winning format would ship in a Mac. He said in 2005 Blu-ray is winning. It's still winning in the second half of 2007. Jobs will still delay it anyway because of cost and because, as pointed out by every decent and observative MacNNer (decent doesn't include people like goMac and Eug), Jobs wants to be the leader of online digital movie distribution. Once he is happy with his position there that's when we'll see the Superdrive updated.

So three obstacles

1. Price
2. Jobs' ambitions for Apple TV and iTunes Store movie sales
3. Superdrive has to be updated in one go. Can't have Blu-day in high end Macs and something called "Superdrive" in lower end Macs.

The fourth obstacle would have been the format war except there isn't one anymore. Blu-ray has been winning for two years and keeps increasing its lead.

[Super Mario]

HD-DVD discs won't be shipping any longer by December 2008. By the middle of 2008 Blu-ray's lead will be unapproachable (it is now some say). I'll bump this when the time comes and you're welcome to quote me.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Yes yes yes. I know about that. For crying out loud, I've quoted that press release myself! My point is that don't see the word "neutral" there, or ANY indication that they will support both formats equally. What does it mean to say that Apple is neutral, anyway? The main way that Apple would support one format or the other is by including it in their hardware. Is it your position that they would the option for both? Or do you think that they will not include either until a clear winner emerges?

If by "neutral" you mean "won't choose either side and won't even given an indication which side they favor" then maybe I agree with you.

What's with this "will" business?

My point is TODAY Apple is neutral, and has been since at least early 2005. As in "Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD." What else are you expecting? Do you want Steve Jobs to stand up in front of your house and scream "Neutral!" "NEUTRAL!" "NEUTRAL!!!!!!!!!!!11one"

As for the definition of "neutral":

1. not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.
2. not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.

If you're going to argue that Apple is NOT neutral, then you'd have to say they're supporting HD DVD more, considering they have products that can produce (and play) HD DVD, but not Blu-ray. However, I don't think this truly makes them non-neutral, because their HD DVD support is limited, and... well... they themselves won't officially endorse either format.

Judging by Jobs' own words, it seems they'd prefer to have one format succeed before they jump in whole hog. They may change course later, but obviously they kept to their word thus far... that they are in fact neutral - today, and for the past several years.