I don't really know what to think of this. Sure, there was a mall there before but isn't putting one back there just...I dunno...wrong? Consumerism is the "American Way" but isn't that one of the things that caused the attacks anyway?


From the NYT:
September 29, 2005
Retail Plan for Ground Zero Is Unveiled
By DAVID W. DUNLAP

A day after evicting the International Freedom Center museum from the memorial quadrant at ground zero for being too controversial, state officials described a plan this morning to develop a half million square feet of retail space elsewhere on the World Trade Center site.

John P. Cahill, Gov. George E. Pataki's chief of staff and the top-ranking downtown development official, told business leaders that 200,000 square feet of retail space - roughly half the area of the old trade center shopping mall - will be built in the PATH terminal and transportation hub on which construction has just begun.

An additional 300,000 square feet are to be developed along Church Street, where most visitors now gather to view ground zero. The retail space would be developed, at least initially, by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

"I'd expect an enormous amount of interest along the Church Street corridor," Mr. Cahill said. He said stores were needed for the growing number of residents downtown.

Mr. Cahill also said that the cultural building on the memorial quadrant, originally intended for the Freedom Center and the Drawing Center, will instead be used as the above-ground "complement" to an underground memorial museum devoted solely to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. That museum is planned to be built within the trade center's foundations - a sore point for relatives of 9/11 victims, many of whom opposed the Freedom Center.

Use of the cultural building, designed by the Norwegian firm Snohetta, might increase by at least 40,000 square feet the amount of exhibition space for the memorial museum, which now stands at 110,000 square feet.

After Governor Pataki ordered the embryonic Freedom Center off the memorial quadrant on Wednesday, the center's founders responded almost immediately by putting an end to the entire project, saying it was intended exclusively for the ground zero site and could not be placed elsewhere.

The Freedom Center, picked for the memorial site by the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, was envisioned as a living memorial in which the story of Sept. 11, 2001, would be told in the context of the worldwide struggle for freedom through the ages.

Critics said the sacred precinct of the memorial was no place for a lesson in geopolitics or social history, particularly when the memorial museum was planned entirely underground, within the trade center foundations.

The Drawing Center, an art museum in SoHo, has already begun looking for other new space downtown rather than directly answer the governor's demand that it pledge never to do anything that would "denigrate America." In a statement explaining his decision, Governor Pataki said, "There remains too much opposition, too much controversy over the programming of the I.F.C., and we must move forward with our first priority, the creation of an inspiring memorial."

He said he had instructed the development corporation, which is overseeing the development of the memorial and cultural buildings, to "work with the I.F.C. to explore other locations."

Less than an hour later, the center said in its own statement that there was no other location to explore, since the memorial quadrant was "the site for which the I.F.C. was created, at the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation's request, and as an integral part of Daniel Libeskind's master site plan."

"We do not believe there is a viable alternative place for the I.F.C. at the World Trade Center site," said the statement from the center's executives, Tom A. Bernstein, Peter W. Kunhardt and Richard J. Tofel. "We consider our work, therefore, to have been brought to an end."

Debra Burlingame, who led the opposition to the Freedom Center, beginning with an article in The Wall Street Journal, "The Great Ground Zero Heist," on June 9, congratulated Governor Pataki on his decision. Her brother, Charles F. Burlingame III, was the pilot of the airliner that was crashed into the Pentagon.

"The International Freedom Center was an obstacle not simply for the families, the first responders and all those who were personally affected by the events of Sept. 11," Ms. Burlingame said in a telephone interview, "but for all Americans who will be coming to the World Trade Center memorial to hear the story of 9/11 and that story only.

"And I believe that story will be able to convey all the core values that Governor Pataki so eloquently enunciated," Ms. Burlingame said, adding that 9/11 was a story not only of loss but "an uplifting story of decency triumphing over depravity."

In 2004, the Drawing Center, an established art museum in SoHo, and the Freedom Center, which existed only as an idea, were picked as joint tenants of a cultural building to rise at the edge of the memorial, on Fulton and Greenwich Streets.

After critics expressed concern this summer that there would be anti-American exhibitions and programs in the cultural building, Governor Pataki demanded an "absolute guarantee" that neither institution would do anything "to denigrate America."

Rather than respond directly, the Drawing Center began looking for alternative space. But Mr. Bernstein, the chairman of the Freedom Center, and Paula Grant Berry, its vice chairwoman, pledged in a July 6 letter to the development corporation that their museum would never "be used as a forum for denigrating the country we love."

Criticism only grew. On Aug. 11, John C. Whitehead, the chairman of the corporation, instructed the Freedom Center to submit a report on its plans and programs, saying that its tenancy in the Snohetta building was at risk.

That report, issued last Thursday, did not assuage opponents, including three Republican congressmen, the police officers' and firefighters' unions and, as of last weekend, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York.

Former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, who is identified strongly with the events of 9/11 and its immediate aftermath, supported Mr. Pataki's decision on Wednesday. "The governor has made the right decision," he said.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, who had recalled the importance of the planning process whenever he was asked to comment this summer, issued a brief statement. "Although I understand Governor Pataki's decision," he said, "I am disappointed that we were not able to find a way to reconcile the freedoms we hold so dear with the sanctity of the site."

In retrospect, the fate of the Freedom Center may have been sealed three years ago with the decision to create a clearly defined parallelogram, bordered by four streets, in which both the memorial and a cultural complex were to sit. Since this was the site of the twin towers, it may have been inevitable that the block would be seen as hallowed.

Gretchen Dykstra, the president of the memorial foundation, which will build and own the memorial and cultural buildings, said the governor had now "provided clear direction that the memorial quadrant should be devoted to telling the story of Sept. 11th."

[Dork.]

They're not really building a mall, they're building retail space into the PATH train terminal, and some stores on Church Street at street level. That's perfectly normal, at least for New York. As long as there are going to be trains running into that site, frantic New Jerseyans (Jerseyites? Jerseyicans?) are going to have to find someplace to buy a coffee and paper on their way into work....

Well, I kind of understand the need for a transportation convenience store type of thing for commuters but there's going to be a hell of a lot more retail than just selling bagels, coffee and newspapers. We're talking about a combined retail square footage of HALF A MILLION!

I bolded some things from the story below for emphasis:

A day after evicting the International Freedom Center museum from the memorial quadrant at ground zero for being too controversial, state officials described a plan this morning to develop a half million square feet of retail space elsewhere on the World Trade Center site.

John P. Cahill, Gov. George E. Pataki's chief of staff and the top-ranking downtown development official, told business leaders that 200,000 square feet of retail space - roughly half the area of the old trade center shopping mall - will be built in the PATH terminal and transportation hub on which construction has just begun.

An additional 300,000 square feet are to be developed along Church Street, where most visitors now gather to view ground zero. The retail space would be developed, at least initially, by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

[starman]

Normal for New York.

[rickey939]

As long as not another Home Depot, Office Depot, Petsmart, and Chili's goes into the location...I'm cool with it.

You would think that even New Yorkers would feel guilty about establishing retail space on a graveyard.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by starman

Normal for New York.

No kidding. They've been planning a replacement for Penn Station for some time across the street from the current terminal, and the current design (which doesn't even fully replace Penn Station, since Amtrak won't move) calls for 850,000 sf of space. Although like all other planning in New York, it is subject to change according to the political winds.

There are a lot of people who commute into Manhattan from the outer bouroughs, Westchester and points north, New Jersey, and Long Island. A lot of them!

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

You would think that even New Yorkers would feel guilty about establishing retail space on a graveyard.

It's not a graveyard, it's a train station.

Well, it is a graveyard, but it also needs to remain a functional space. And part of the function of the space is a train terminal, which always has retail in and near it. Those trains go through tunnels to New Jersey, you can't just relocate the station.

At one point not long after the attacks I was a proponent of the "build 'em back up just like they were" argument. I no longer feel that way -- we need something different to mark the change that was forced there -- but I do feel that the best monument to New Yorkers lost in that attack (who were, after all, just showing up to work that morning, just like I just did this morning) is a facility in which transportation and commerce are constantly moving, since the city is in constant motion, too.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dork.

At one point not long after the attacks I was a proponent of the "build 'em back up just like they were" argument.

I like the "build 'em back up just like they were, but with one shorter to represent the people killed" idea.

[Millennium]

Why would restoring something once there to its former place be wrong? Consumerism is indeed a corrupting influence, but to say that it caused the attacks, even indirectly, is ridiculous.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by subego

I like the "build 'em back up just like they were, but with one shorter to represent the people killed" idea.

See, I'd make them one floor taller for exactly that reason, and put memorials on the top floor of each tower. Many cultures have a concept of putting memorials to honored dead on high places, or making the memorials themselves very tall when high places aren't available. What better way to memorialize people from such a diverse group than by putting the memorials in two of the highest places on Earth?

[iDriveX]

I think a nice little memorial will work, underground or above, but let's get back to our lives people. No need to force the destruction and devastation down on our throats forever. Cause if we dedicate an entire building and all its contents to the terrorist attacks. That's when they really do win.

[cpt kangarooski]

I'd say just put in a statue or a plaque or something, put the roads back in, and put up skyscrapers. But not just as they were -- those buildings were hideous eyesores. (As are all the propsed replacements)

I think it's pretty stupid to waste all that space on some dippy memorial though.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Millennium

See, I'd make them one floor taller for exactly that reason

I can see it both ways. Shorter appeals to both my sense of poetry and austerity.

[Dork.]

Here's what I've concluded:

Rebuilding exactly the same thing is denial. Something horrible happened there, which needs to be acknowledged.

Rebuilding essentially the same thing, but with a different feel, is acceptance and resiliance in the face of adversity.

Not rebuilding, or building something that does not have the same basic essence as what was there before, is retreat. It's giving that space over to the horrible event. Horrible things happen all the time in New York, and the city keeps moving around them and on top of them.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Why would restoring something once there to its former place be wrong? Consumerism is indeed a corrupting influence, but to say that it caused the attacks, even indirectly, is ridiculous.

Bush: "They're against our American Way Of Life!"

American Way of Life = Consumerism
(amongst other things)

If they would of come out three months after the attacks and say, "We're going to put in a 500,000 square foot retail center!" how popular would that idea of been with Americans by and large? Patriots from all over would be screaming about it.

Time heals all wounds, evidently.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

If they would of come out three months after the attacks and say, "We're going to put in a 500,000 square foot retail center!" how popular would that idea of been with Americans by and large? Patriots from all over would be screaming about it.

Time heals all wounds, evidently.

Again, it's not a mall they're putting up, and to my knowledge, it's not a Wal-Mart. Have you ever been to a commuter rail station in New York City?

Other than perhaps cries of "it's too soon", most people living and working in New York would not have had a problem with what you propose. They put up a temporary PATH station and rebuilt the subways in the area as soon as they could because they had to in order to get lower Manhattan functioning again. Retail space comes logically from that, since people are going to walk to work from the station. And I'm not sure exactly what the ridership of the PATH trains into the WTC is, but it's enough to support lots and lots of retail space, not to mention the 1, 9, E, and whatever other subway lines I'm forgetting about with stops near the WTC.

Besides, when the Patriots come to visit, they're across the river, in East Rutherford, NJ. They could have been in Manhattan in a few years, but the aforementioned "political winds" nixed that idea.

[Psychonaut]

It's such a shame people should even ask such a question, because doing so is apologizing for what makes America great. Before 9/11, I had heard leftists speak half-jokingly about destroying the World Trade Center, a symbol of American capitalism and production. Well, they finally got what they had secretly wished for, and I'll be damned if the commission honors American businessmen by building something reserved, penitent, sacred, humble, or self-effacing.

Oh really? So it was the "American way" that murdered those men and women, and not savage Islamic terrorists bent on destroying America? Well, it was certainly passive, compromising apologists like yourself that gave them a hand, whether you identified the consequences of your values or not.

I don't think I can even revisit this thread, because just reading most of the replies makes me absolutely sick.

[mitchell_pgh]

IMHO, they should have a beautiful, small memorial to those that died... perhaps an entire floor on or near the top of one of the new buildings if the want to go "over the top". I'm just tired of everyon bickering over it...

"International Freedom Shrine for Heroes of Democracy..." I'm getting a little tired of the PR department on overload...

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

I don't really know what to think of this. Sure, there was a mall there before but isn't putting one back there just...I dunno...wrong? Consumerism is the "American Way" but isn't that one of the things that caused the attacks anyway?

Let's get something straight, consumerism didn't cause any attacks, 19 dirtbag muslim fanatical terrorists did.

The WTC will be rebuilt and having stores there is 100% normal. The towers should be built bigger and better than before. At least that disgusting freedom center garbage has now been banned from the WTC site, screw those scumbags. The WTC should be rebuilt with a giant middle finger sticking out of the roof, a big FU to show that we don't give a crap about what other people think.

If somebody tries to take down the WTC again, we'll wipe out an entire country.

Originally Posted by PacHead

Let's get something straight, consumerism didn't cause any attacks, 19 dirtbag muslim fanatical terrorists did.

The WTC will be rebuilt and having stores there is 100% normal. The towers should be built bigger and better than before. At least that disgusting freedom center garbage has now been banned from the WTC site, screw those scumbags. The WTC should be rebuilt with a giant middle finger sticking out of the roof, a big FU to show that we don't give a crap about what other people think.

If somebody tries to take down the WTC again, we'll wipe out an entire country.

'cuz dats da American way!

[typoon]

Originally Posted by Dork.

No kidding. They've been planning a replacement for Penn Station for some time across the street from the current terminal, and the current design (which doesn't even fully replace Penn Station, since Amtrak won't move) calls for 850,000 sf of space. Although like all other planning in New York, it is subject to change according to the political winds.

There are a lot of people who commute into Manhattan from the outer bouroughs, Westchester and points north, New Jersey, and Long Island. A lot of them!

The site across the street is the Post Office now. Go figure they are going to move that somewhere else.

[FulcrumPilot]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

Consumerism is the "American Way" but isn't that one of the things that caused the attacks anyway?

Damn! With more people like you this world would have been a paradise!

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

'cuz dats da American way!

Damn straight. It sure beats the ways of others.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by PacHead

If somebody tries to take down the WTC again, we'll wipe out an entire country.

How long have you been in the service? Or are you just a bigshot?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

How long have you been in the service? Or are you just a bigshot?

I am not in the service. I am just glad that my tax dollars partly go to financing the killing of terrorist scum around the world.

[pathogen]

consumerism / World Trade Center / Capitalism / Malls

You can't really have one without any of the others.

Love it or leave it.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I am not in the service. I am just glad that my tax dollars partly go to financing the killing of terrorist scum around the world.

I'm quite sure they are more pleased that there dollars brought down a bunch of US landmarks.

[Pendergast]

Can't wait to see the souvenir shop...

[cpt kangarooski]

Can't wait to see the souvenir shop...

Think it'll have some of these?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PacHead

If somebody tries to take down the WTC again, we'll wipe out an entire country.

Do you have ego problems?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

Think it'll have some of these?

There's a start.

How about Bin Laden clothes?

(Still waiting for his capture btw.)

Oh yes! A Board game or a picture book like:

"Where's OBL?"

I can see Michael Moore's movies on sale side by side with speeches of Bush Jr on SACD, pieces of WTC I for sale as blasé modern art, and what else?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

I'm quite sure they are more pleased that there dollars brought down a bunch of US landmarks.

"There" dollars ? You mean "their". And I doubt "they" are so pleased. The idiots are now dead afterall, rotting in hell and not in paradise with their 72 virgins.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by goMac

Do you have ego problems?

Do you have reading comprehension problems ? This is not about me. Like I said, another 9-11 and you'll see what happens. We'll remove an entire country from the map, perhaps an entire crappy region of the world.