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Parky · Jun 28, 2008, 05:23 PM

I know we are all focusing on the Apple App Store specifically for the iPhone, but what if its scope is wider than we think.

The delivery process and DRM can be used in iTunes for users to buy Mac and PC software just as easily as iPhone software.

What market opportunites are there for Apple if they open the iTunes App Store for Mac / PC software developers to sell thier applications. It could be a great distribution channel and would generate even more cash for Apple.

They could apply the same deal that they offer for iPhone Apps, Free or 30/70 split. Imagine buying games, widgets and any other app in iTunes.

I think it is the next logical step and could be a huge revenue stream for Apple.

Chuckit · Jun 28, 2008, 05:38 PM

I hope not. It may be the only choice on the iPhone, but I don't want my desktop DRMed up the wazoo. I don't understand why anybody would want that.

mduell · Jun 28, 2008, 07:26 PM

Massively positive for Apple; massively negative for users.

The idea I can't run whatever app I want on the iPhone is absurd. It should be an opt-in (or even opt-out would be acceptable) system: users who are concerned about malware can go the Apple-blessed-only route, while the rest of us who are responsible for ourselves can download and run whatever we please.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I hope not. It may be the only choice on the iPhone, but I don't want my desktop DRMed up the wazoo. I don't understand why anybody would want that.

I assume eventually Apple will move to a similar system on the desktop. Of course you'll still be able to run legacy apps for a few years after it's released, but the new APIs will only work with signed apps from the store and eventually software will move to them because the legacy APIs will be dropped. I expect this to happen very slowly over the next decade in the name of "security" or "safety", but really it's all about control. The enterprise iPhone development option works for enterprises, but it doesn't help individual users who want drag-and-drop ease for running programs they didn't write. I'd expect something similar for Macs when the above is implemented, so that portion of the userbase can be kept.

64stang06 · Jun 28, 2008, 07:43 PM

Microsoft does this in a way, though the software doesn't have DRM from them (at least the few I had purchased through that didn't).

lpkmckenna · Jun 28, 2008, 07:53 PM

The way around the AppStore will be open source. It will be pretty easy for developers to provide the source to an app, which individual users will be able to compile and load up onto the iPhone or iTouch. Clever developers might even provide the source with a script that does it all auto-magically.

Parky · Jun 29, 2008, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I hope not. It may be the only choice on the iPhone, but I don't want my desktop DRMed up the wazoo. I don't understand why anybody would want that.

I can't say I would be bothered with the DRM.
What is the problem with it?
If it maintains that you only use the software under the licence rules it was sold under then it is only preventing you from breaking the law.
It is no different from buying software and getting an activation code, which most software requires now anyway to prevent theft.

Wiskedjak · Jun 29, 2008, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Parky

If it maintains that you only use the software under the licence rules it was sold under then it is only preventing you from breaking the law.
It is no different from buying software and getting an activation code, which most software requires now anyway to prevent theft.

Activation codes are the perfect example of what's wrong with DRM. They treat the paying customer as if they're criminals and seriously inconvenience them. Upgrade your computer a little too much, and the activation DRM thinks it's a new computer and demands you re-activate. And, what happens if they software provider has capped how many times you can activate? Then you've gotta call into tech support and prove that you aren't a criminal, just someone who changes their computers alot.

I don't need to be prevented from violating copyright agreements. I'll never understand why people so willingly let themselves be treated as criminals.

Parky · Jun 29, 2008, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Activation codes are the perfect example of what's wrong with DRM. They treat the paying customer as if they're criminals and seriously inconvenience them. Upgrade your computer a little too much, and the activation DRM thinks it's a new computer and demands you re-activate. And, what happens if they software provider has capped how many times you can activate? Then you've gotta call into tech support and prove that you aren't a criminal, just someone who changes their computers alot.

I don't need to be prevented from violating copyright agreements. I'll never understand why people so willingly let themselves be treated as criminals.

It is all a matter of opinion.
I'm happy to use activation codes if it prevents others from stealing and making my purchases more expensive. The alternative will not work as the world we live in today is made up of selfish people who steal.

mduell · Jun 29, 2008, 03:03 PM

Wow, I sound really jaded and pissed above.

Originally Posted by 64stang06

Microsoft does this in a way, though the software doesn't have DRM from them (at least the few I had purchased through that didn't).

Huh?

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

The way around the AppStore will be open source. It will be pretty easy for developers to provide the source to an app, which individual users will be able to compile and load up onto the iPhone or iTouch. Clever developers might even provide the source with a script that does it all auto-magically.

After the users download the multi-gigabyte latest Xcode every time Apple updates it... and registers for their own key and gets approved by Apple to have a key... and sets their iPhone to be a development device.

Originally Posted by Parky

I can't say I would be bothered with the DRM.
What is the problem with it?
If it maintains that you only use the software under the licence rules it was sold under then it is only preventing you from breaking the law.

Optional DRM is defective by design, so it acts as a hassle for legitimate users and the pirates just bypass it. Mandatory DRM the way Apple has implemented it for the App store means you can only run the applications Apple wants you to run (those which enhance their business model); despite the iPhone being capable of acting as a wireless access point, Apple will never allow the application that enables that to be published in the app store.

Chuckit · Jun 29, 2008, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Parky

It is all a matter of opinion.
I'm happy to use activation codes if it prevents others from stealing and making my purchases more expensive. The alternative will not work as the world we live in today is made up of selfish people who steal.

Do I hear the sound of the world's smallest violin playing for Microsoft and Adobe? Boo-hoo, I sure hope their enormous piles of cash can somehow heal their broken hearts.

The truth is, DRM doesn't stop theft. It never has and it never will. People still pirate Photoshop despite all the hoops I have to go through just to move it from one computer to another. All DRM does is restrict what legitimate customers can do with their software.

And you think it will save you money when you have to buy a new copy of your software every time you get a new computer?

64stang06 · Jun 29, 2008, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Wow, I sound really jaded and pissed above.

Huh?

After the users download the multi-gigabyte latest Xcode every time Apple updates it... and registers for their own key and gets approved by Apple to have a key... and sets their iPhone to be a development device.

Optional DRM is defective by design, so it acts as a hassle for legitimate users and the pirates just bypass it. Mandatory DRM the way Apple has implemented it for the App store means you can only run the applications Apple wants you to run (those which enhance their business model); despite the iPhone being capable of acting as a wireless access point, Apple will never allow the application that enables that to be published in the app store.

My comment was that Microsoft has what's called "Digital Locker", where you purchase software (3rd party or theirs) through this program. Once you purchase, it's then downloaded and installed to the computer without any DRM from Microsoft.

lpkmckenna · Jun 29, 2008, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

After the users download the multi-gigabyte latest Xcode every time Apple updates it.

Growing pains. These huge updates will stop once the code base stabilizes.

...and registers for their own key and gets approved by Apple to have a key... and sets their iPhone to be a development device.

So? Is Apple gonna run outta keys?

King Bob On The Cob · Jun 29, 2008, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Growing pains. These huge updates will stop once the code base stabilizes.

So? Is Apple gonna run outta keys?

Software SDK Keys cost $99. Good luck getting people to pay that if they're not a real developer making that back when they release software...

analogika · Jun 29, 2008, 05:03 PM

This discussion about stealing software is completely off-topic. The iPhone Appl Store DRM (or rather, application signing) has nothing to do with preventing *stealing*.

The whole point is to keep malware off the iPhone platform by ensuring that someone has put their signature and personal responsibility on the line for each and every app that can be installed.

Apple has one of the most high-profile and powerful mobile platforms on the market, and they MUST keep the sandbox clean.

Chuckit · Jun 29, 2008, 05:08 PM

I think you're confusing code signing and FairPlay. They're not the same thing.

King Bob On The Cob · Jun 29, 2008, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I think you're confusing code signing and FairPlay. They're not the same thing.

Well, to be fair, the code on the iPhone has to be both signed and as far as I know, encrypted.

mduell · Jun 29, 2008, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

So? Is Apple gonna run outta keys?

No, but they've been rather stingy with them so far.

Originally Posted by analogika

This discussion about stealing software is completely off-topic. The iPhone Appl Store DRM (or rather, application signing) has nothing to do with preventing *stealing*.

The whole point is to keep malware off the iPhone platform by ensuring that someone has put their signature and personal responsibility on the line for each and every app that can be installed.

Apple has one of the most high-profile and powerful mobile platforms on the market, and they MUST keep the sandbox clean.

There's no inherent necessary link between code signing and the app store. RIM requires apps to be signed if they use some APIs, but you can download them right from the developers page without any RIM-managed store.

analogika · Jun 30, 2008, 02:43 PM

Ah - I did get that confused, I see.

Thanks.

Parky · Jul 5, 2008, 04:41 AM

Why must threads be taken off topic by moaners again and again?

The discussion was around what will the Apple Store do next, i.e. sell computer software not just iPhone software. If you want a discussion around DRM's then this is not the place.

Parky · Jul 5, 2008, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

Massively positive for Apple; massively negative for users.

The idea I can't run whatever app I want on the iPhone is absurd. It should be an opt-in (or even opt-out would be acceptable) system: users who are concerned about malware can go the Apple-blessed-only route, while the rest of us who are responsible for ourselves can download and run whatever we please.

I assume eventually Apple will move to a similar system on the desktop. Of course you'll still be able to run legacy apps for a few years after it's released, but the new APIs will only work with signed apps from the store and eventually software will move to them because the legacy APIs will be dropped. I expect this to happen very slowly over the next decade in the name of "security" or "safety", but really it's all about control. The enterprise iPhone development option works for enterprises, but it doesn't help individual users who want drag-and-drop ease for running programs they didn't write. I'd expect something similar for Macs when the above is implemented, so that portion of the userbase can be kept.

If you don't like the terms of use for the iPhone or the App Store then don't buy an iPhone.
It has been said many many times, no one has forced you to buy the iPhone.
You looked at the deal, the restrictions and made a choice to buy it, don't now complain that you don't like it. Accept the way it works or move on to a platform / device that does what you want the way you want.

Parky · Jul 5, 2008, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I hope not. It may be the only choice on the iPhone, but I don't want my desktop DRMed up the wazoo. I don't understand why anybody would want that.

Then don't buy the software from the App Store!!
Buy it the way you do now, it is all about choice.

Wiskedjak · Jul 5, 2008, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

The whole point is to keep malware off the iPhone platform by ensuring that someone has put their signature and personal responsibility on the line for each and every app that can be installed.

And also to ensure that apps which compete/conflict with Apple interests are kept off the iPhone as well.

Chuckit · Jul 5, 2008, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Parky

Why must threads be taken off topic by moaners again and again?

The discussion was around what will the Apple Store do next, i.e. sell computer software not just iPhone software. If you want a discussion around DRM's then this is not the place.

A discussion of DRM as it applies to the App Store seems relevant to the topic of expanding the App Store's reach to me. I was saying, I don't want the App Store on the Mac unless Apple fixes it. DRM is not user-friendly, and that will really show up on the desktop.

mduell · Jul 5, 2008, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Parky

If you don't like the terms of use for the iPhone or the App Store then don't buy an iPhone.
It has been said many many times, no one has forced you to buy the iPhone.
You looked at the deal, the restrictions and made a choice to buy it, don't now complain that you don't like it. Accept the way it works or move on to a platform / device that does what you want the way you want.

And I haven't; my money went to RIM last time and will probably go to them next time. But what does your comment have to do with this topic? Or with the acceptability of DRM?