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ckohler · Jul 16, 2003, 01:28 PM

Say you're like me and run 1024x768. Then say you have a lot of Menu Extras showing at the top left (maybe between 10 or 14) and then you start an application that has a lot of menus and maybe a long name like "Adobe Photoshop 7"?

Something gets obscured doesn't it? To be honest, I don't really know for certain since I've never had more than four or five Menu Extras at once. If something does get obscured due to unavilable space, shouldn't Apple consider revamping how the Menu Extra system works?

This is going to be an even bigger issue when Panther is released. Apple is going to be adding a person's full name in the upper left for fast user switching (in bold no less!) as well as adding several new additional Menu Extras for Ink and Classic. Unless they resolve this issue, a lot of users are going to have obscured items in their menu bar.

OptimusG4 · Jul 16, 2003, 03:02 PM

Well for one, putting the user name in the menubar is optional right now in the dev. builds, but I understand what you mean.

zachs · Jul 16, 2003, 03:05 PM

I wish the users menu was a submenu in the Apple menu. It would make much more sense, plus it would save space.

Also, what creates an even bigger space problem is the clock. I have mine so it shows, for example, "Wed 2:00 pm". Plus I have 4 other menu extras (the battery one is long too...).

Mine would be:
[ ][ ] [ ] [---](100%) Wed 3:00 pm Foo Bar

Hopefully they'll revise this.

pat++ · 04:33 PM

I totally agree... Send feedback.

SomeToast · Jul 16, 2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by ckohler:
[...] and then you start an application that has a lot of menus and maybe a long name like "Adobe Photoshop 7"?

Fortunately, Photoshop's application menu name is "Photoshop" so that alleviates things a little bit.

The creation of an overloaded menu bar is probably why Apple said menu extras were for Apple and Apple alone (not that I agree with this stance, quite the opposite).

If the two sides of my menu bar start to bump hips, it'll be time to dump some of the lesser-used extras in the trash.

A good question for the Panther Pioneers is what options (if any) Fast User Switching has for user name display.

- - e r i k - - · Jul 16, 2003, 03:49 PM

No options to change what to display in the user switch menu. Would be cool to have a scaled down user picture though

When menus collide the left-most menu-extras get removed one by one.

SomeToast · Jul 16, 2003, 03:57 PM

What happens with non-Apple menu extras that have been glommed on the system in various ways (I'm thinking the ones that can't be command-drag moved, like Timbuktu and Konfabulator)?

- - e r i k - - · Jul 16, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by SomeToast:
What happens with non-Apple menu extras that have been glommed on the system in various ways (I'm thinking the ones that can't be command-drag moved, like Timbuktu and Konfabulator)?

The same.

OAW · Jul 16, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
No options to change what to display in the user switch menu. Would be cool to have a scaled down user picture though

Indeed!

OAW

Diggory Laycock · Jul 16, 2003, 06:28 PM

I used to suffer from this on my pismo every time I ran Project Builder. Now I have a 17" widebook I never get it.

I suppose you need to go on a menu extra diet.

Brass · Jul 16, 2003, 08:02 PM

I get menu collisions all the time on my clamshell iBook. When switching between applications, the menu extras get really confused about which ones are supposed to be displayed where, and somtimes half of one is displayed half on top of another one, with the full version next to it. Clicking on them is the only way to restore them to their correct state (click on one then drag over all of them).

DBvader · Jul 16, 2003, 08:10 PM

most of those menu extras are useless, on my powermac i run menumeters, with both processors showing their uses as a percentage, i also monitor mem usage and network activity, and then i use meteorologist for the weather.

of course, i run my mac at 1600 X 1200, so there is no problem with space.

stew · Jul 17, 2003, 03:15 AM

Send feedback to Apple like I did. Tell them you need the ability to change font sizes.

Gee4orce · Jul 17, 2003, 04:05 AM

I posted a message in the developer forum suggesting a solution to this problem - a second menu bar

Well, not exactly - it would be a menu-bar height palette that you could drag meny extras to, insted of the main menu bar. This could then be positioned where you like. Just like the good old control strip

It's ironic that the Dock started of as a control strip replacement, but gradually more and more things have been moved into the menu bar, where they now cause problems, so now we need a solution just like - erm - the control strip !

As it stands, the Mac OS X menu bar is becoming like the Windows Tray - a place there an odd collection of widgests get shoved when nobody can think of anywhere better to put them.....

Chuckit · Jul 17, 2003, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
I posted a message in the developer forum suggesting a solution to this problem - a second menu bar

Incidentally, that prompted me to pull out an old test project I had lying around that was supposed to do this exact thing. I've now got it basically working properly. It needs a little bit more tweaking before it's anything people would want to use (e.g., I haven't yet implemented removing menu extras), and I need to test it with a few more third-party menu extras, but it shouldn't be too long. Here's a snap:

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot what the image code here looked like. D'oh.

Sven G · 07:47 AM

Maybe the most obvious solution to this problem could be for Apple/SJ to reintroduce an option for vertical menus, � la NeXTSTEP (thus, also, with much more space for Menu Extras - Apple and third party, - preferably sharing the same vertical "System Pane" as the main menus) - in the most obvious implementation, � la Windows Taskbar, simply to be able to drag and drop the "classic", horizontal menu bar to any screen edge. It wouldn't hurt, either, to integrate the whole Menu Bar + Dock + Expos� (Expos�-Dock?) in a unified, simple to use and "intuitive" scheme - utopia, perhaps...?

Person Man · Jul 17, 2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
Incidentally, that prompted me to pull out an old test project I had lying around that was supposed to do this exact thing. I've now got it basically working properly. It needs a little bit more tweaking before it's anything people would want to use (e.g., I haven't yet implemented removing menu extras), and I need to test it with a few more third-party menu extras, but it shouldn't be too long.

Yes! Something like this would be perfect! Please finish it, you might be on to something...

Gee4orce · Jul 17, 2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
Incidentally, that prompted me to pull out an old test project I had lying around that was supposed to do this exact thing. I've now got it basically working properly. It needs a little bit more tweaking before it's anything people would want to use (e.g., I haven't yet implemented removing menu extras), and I need to test it with a few more third-party menu extras, but it shouldn't be too long. Here's a snap:

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot what the image code here looked like. D'oh.

Exactly right ! Cool.

So, (not clear from screenshot) - can you have things in the palette that aren't in the menu bar ?

lookmark · Jul 17, 2003, 11:48 AM

I think the solution is just to provide icon-only options for all menu extras, just as the Date & Time menu extra works.

Currently, my own solution is keeping menu extras pretty tidy and small in number, and loading ones used less often with a keyboard shortcut...

headbirth · Jul 17, 2003, 11:59 AM

I think the right side of the menu bar should be adjustable like a pane.

stew · Jul 17, 2003, 12:47 PM

Apple should ditch the menu bar as a whole but instead ship mice with an extra button labeled "menu" that'll bring up a NeXT-like menu right under the mouse button. Fitt's law, here we go: There's no point easier to reach than the one where the mouse already is.

Diggory Laycock · Jul 17, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by stew:
Apple should ditch the menu bar as a whole but instead ship mice with an extra button labeled "menu" that'll bring up a NeXT-like menu right under the mouse button. Fitt's law, here we go: There's no point easier to reach than the one where the mouse already is.

That's a pro feature. What would your mother think? probably "this app has no features - there are no menus"

stew · Jul 17, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
That's a pro feature. What would your mother think? probably "this app has no features - there are no menus"

That's why the button would be labeled "menu". How can that be misunderstood? Anyone who's smart enough to learn that the "enter" key starts a new line is smart enough to figure out that the menu button is likely to open a menu.

ckohler · Jul 17, 2003, 02:19 PM

Some of you are talking about some really radical changes to the basic Mac UI. That's too mcuh.

I'd be happy if they just came up with a very clever, inconspicuous way of correcting this issue. Keep the menu bar and the menu extras where they are and just make something "special" happen.

For example, in Windows XP if you have a ton of mini-icons in your system tray, the mostly unused ones auto-hide themselves and a little circular button appears to reveal them. I'm not a fan of auto-hiding but at least shows there are possibilities for fixing this issue without redesigning the whole interface.

Chuckit · Jul 17, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
So, (not clear from screenshot) - can you have things in the palette that aren't in the menu bar ?

Oh, sure. I just chose the same ones I had in the menu bar for easy comparison.

sadie · Jul 18, 2003, 06:50 AM

Chuckit, that looks seriously cool.

Amorya · Jul 18, 2003, 09:24 AM

Chuckit, will it collapse like the control strip?

Amorya

stew · Jul 18, 2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by ckohler:
Some of you are talking about some really radical changes to the basic Mac UI. That's too mcuh.

Ooops, sorry. I didn't mean to think different

kmkkid · Jul 18, 2003, 01:12 PM

I think Apple should allow a second feature where the menu's are in windows instead of using the menubar. Of course you could still chose either one, but I prefer my menu's inside of windows.

Chris

crystalthunder · Jul 18, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Amorya:
Chuckit, will it collapse like the control strip?

Amorya

If it collapsed...that'd be so sweet.

Hmmm....

OS X Control Strip == Detachable Menu Item bar

Bobby · Jul 18, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by stew:
That's why the button would be labeled "menu". How can that be misunderstood? Anyone who's smart enough to learn that the "enter" key starts a new line is smart enough to figure out that the menu button is likely to open a menu.

The "enter" key starts a new line? Geese, finally. I've been looking for that answer for years!!! Man, why did nobody come along earlier and tell me this. You know because it seems like when I type things, they go on and on and on. Its unnatural to look at a giant block of text with no indications of where to break the thinking pattern. It just gets old reading all those things in one giant block. I tell you, I really could have used this information a few years ago. You know I was working on a paper and having my name and the date and everything else only wrapping at the end of the page just makes it seem so complex. It's amazing that they don't tell you these things. There's no direction book or anything that says "oh by the way, the enter key starts a new line". They really should document these things better, because it just can be difficult to find these kind of things some time... Now I just need to find a better way of counting spaces to make sure text is properly centered....

Basilisk · Jul 19, 2003, 01:06 PM

Chuckit,

that looks pretty impressive. I you do plan to release this please do the authors of third-party MenuExtras a favor (I write MenuMeters) and give as an API to detect your system, what extras are running, and MenuExtra add/removal.

The reason I ask is that lots of third-party extras are hidden inside other bundles (prefPane) and we manage our install/uninstall ourselves. I'm not looking forward to the support email if I can't support your app directly

Thanks,

Bas

brianlaughlin · Jul 21, 2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
Incidentally, that prompted me to pull out an old test project I had lying around that was supposed to do this exact thing. I've now got it basically working properly. It needs a little bit more tweaking before it's anything people would want to use (e.g., I haven't yet implemented removing menu extras), and I need to test it with a few more third-party menu extras, but it shouldn't be too long. Here's a snap:

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot what the image code here looked like. D'oh.

WOW, it's really cool!!

Do you want some beta testers?

Brian

bgmccollum · Jul 23, 2003, 02:33 AM

whats the status of this chuckit? really itchin to get my control strip back.

looks dope
bg

malvolio · Jul 23, 2003, 03:09 PM

I just arrange mine so the less vital ones are the ones that get obscured. Then if I want to see (for example) what the current weather conditions are even though Meteorologist's icon is hidden, I can just click on the Finder's dock icon. Finder comes to the front and all the menu extras are visible again.
Hardly a major issue, IMO.

milhous · Jul 23, 2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Sven G:
Maybe the most obvious solution to this problem could be for Apple/SJ to reintroduce an option for vertical menus, � la NeXTSTEP (thus, also, with much more space for Menu Extras (Apple and third party), preferably sharing the same vertical "System Pane" as the main menus - in the most obvious implementation, � la Windows Taskbar, simply to be able to drag and drop the "classic", horizontal menu bar to any screen edge. It wouldn't hurt, either, to integrate the whole Menu Bar + Dock + Expos� (Expos�-Dock?) in a unified, simple to use and "intuitive" scheme - utopia, perhaps...?

Damn that would be sweet, I'm in complete agreement with you!

Chuckit · Jul 24, 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by bgmccollum:
whats the status of this chuckit?

I've got all the basic features working properly. Just need to design a prefpane to control it (since obviously you don't want the strip taking away focus from other applications) and we should be set, I think.

bgmccollum · Jul 24, 2003, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
I've got all the basic features working properly. Just need to design a prefpane to control it (since obviously you don't want the strip taking away focus from other applications) and we should be set, I think.

well booya my dooya...

King Bob On The Cob · Jul 25, 2003, 06:40 PM

hurry! or something...

Geobunny · Jul 26, 2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
I've got all the basic features working properly. Just need to design a prefpane to control it (since obviously you don't want the strip taking away focus from other applications) and we should be set, I think.

Sounds like a fantastic little app, can't wait to test it...assuming we're allowed to!

I was trying to think of what you might call it, but then I realised that your MacNN username would be perfect, especially if you can drag menu extras on and off it! What better advertising than your own name eh?!

bgmccollum · Aug 3, 2003, 01:58 AM

-

Sven G · Aug 3, 2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by ckohler:
For example, in Windows XP if you have a ton of mini-icons in your system tray, the mostly unused ones auto-hide themselves and a little circular button appears to reveal them. I'm not a fan of auto-hiding but at least shows there are possibilities for fixing this issue without redesigning the whole interface.

This could actually be a good solution, waiting for more "revolutionary" options: it could be a way to revive the little vertical "dotted" bar from the Classic Mac OS, which then toggled between the icon-only and icon-and-text view for the Application Menu - in OS X it could (partially) show and hide the Menu Extras, even automatically as in Windows XP...

sushiism · Aug 3, 2003, 09:05 AM

" As it stands, the Mac OS X menu bar is becoming like the Windows Tray - a place there an odd collection of widgests get shoved when nobody can think of anywhere better to put them.."
NO ITS NOT!
the windows tray is a horrible place where every app thinks it deserves an icon, i mean you install most windows apps these days (lets take windows posterboy winamp for example) right it shoves an icon in your start menu, and icon in your quick launch thing and i con on your desktop and a little app in your tray that does nothing.

"vertical menus"
NO!
look that stupid vertical menu destroys about as much desktop space on the left as having a dock there would (actually it does more) the top menu bar takes up much less space and doesnt render half your screen useless

"Apple should ditch the menu bar as a whole but instead ship mice with an extra button labeled "menu" that'll bring up a NeXT-like menu right under the mouse button. Fitt's law, here we go: There's no point easier to reach than the one where the mouse already is."
<b>DEAR GOD NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
ever used an Acorn computer running RiscOS? (im guessing no or you wouldnt suggest something so crazy), well they had a menu button on the 3 button mouse (never used the 3rd button really, and menu was the middle button) and ALL app menus were in a context menu, wanna save then middle click, select save and drag the icon to a folder, its REALLY hellish becuase all app funcitons where hidden there, took most of us 10 mins to figure out how to open a document in one program.

brianlaughlin · Aug 10, 2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Chuckit:
I've got all the basic features working properly. Just need to design a prefpane to control it (since obviously you don't want the strip taking away focus from other applications) and we should be set, I think.

Chuckit, Did you finish it???

Brian

King Bob On The Cob · Nov 16, 2003, 02:46 AM

God... why can't this ever come out?!?

SSharon · Nov 16, 2003, 03:51 AM

Quick question for the guy that writes menu meters (Basilisk I believe). Do you know of any issues with menu meters and panther or has anyone else asked you about it? I love those meters especially the network traffic one, but its not working right anymore. In the menu bar its fine but when I click on it it says no active interface. It used to show real time traffic and the totals. Again I love the app and use all the meters except disk, I'm just curious to know whether anyone else has had this issue. Thanks in advance to anyone with a reply.

So I like the idea of having a two line (if needed) menu bar. Right now I use widgets that do the same function as some of the menus so I can take them out, like the widget with the date I put below the clock. Also what about using short names for FUS that would save space for everyone I'm sure.