[d4nth3m4n]

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/sto...96661/500songs

what crap. the first two are obvious crap. like a rolling stone and a song by the rolling stones IN rolling stone. not cute, retarded.

[iMOTOR]

A lot of good music on there, but yeah I agree, the rest is crap. The ranking is real ef'ed up. I guess everyone that looks at that is going to love some of the songs and disagree with the rest, ya know.

[anti-sleep]

What? People have differing opinions on pop music? Now I've seen everything...

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by d4nth3m4n:
like a rolling stone and a song by the rolling stones IN rolling stone. not cute, retarded.

that has got to be a joke.

[Zimphire]

#9 Smells Like Teen Spirit
Nirvana
1991


You got to be kidding me...

I mean it's a killer song and all..

But to make it into the top 10.

No.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
#9 Smells Like Teen Spirit
Nirvana
1991


You got to be kidding me...

I mean it's a killer song and all..

But to make it into the top 10.

No.

Indeed. One big joke, it is.

[shmerek]

That list is a serious pile of shyte

[Geo669]

Agreed. This list is Bullocks.

[chris v]

Rolling Stone's criticism has always been severely tainted by an over-inflated sense of self-importance, and an over-reliance on trendyness. I bought their "HIstory of Rock and Roll" book years back, and all the SF bands like Quicksilver Messenger Service (who?) and Jefferson Airplane/Starship got pages of treatment, while other equally immportand bands from England went unmentioned, or got a paragraph (Pink Floyd) at best. It should have been a "History of the Friends of the Editors Of RS."

[Cubeoid]

My head is boiling! leaving out the "macarena" is an insult to Jesus himself.

[BlueSky]

You idiots don't know what you're talking about. You weren't there when a lot of this music broke and apparently can't appreciate it.

And Teen Spirit does deserve top ten.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Bluesky:
You idiots don't know what you're talking about. You weren't there when a lot of this music broke and apparently can't appreciate it.

And Teen Spirit does deserve top ten.

Nonsense.

I was of the 'Nirvana Generation' and saw them live 3 times, and while a good song, it is in no way deserving of a place in the top 10 *BEST* songs ever!

Thing about it... of all the songs every recorded and released, are you going to try and tell me that SLTS is *that* good?!

[Cipher13]

Teen Spirit? Top Ten? Hahaha. That song would be lucky to make it onto a 60GB iPod, if I owned one... and I don't have 60GB worth of music.

Haven't you guys figured out that Rolling Stone is a load of ****? I mean, seriously - I'd expect nothing other than a list like this.

But hey, I'm a music snob, and my opinion *is* better than everyone elses, so... eh (that said, I wouldn't ever try to put together a "top 500 greatest songs" list, because there are many that I don't know that deserve to be on there).

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
#9 Smells Like Teen Spirit
Nirvana
1991


You got to be kidding me...

I mean it's a killer song and all..

But to make it into the top 10.

No.

I wanna vomit. I can't take it. The Ramones and Nirvana, not to mention unknown 1 hit wonders, and even Eminem�before Sabbath, DP, etc.?

Paranoid at 250�
Black Dog at 294�
Iron Man at 310�
Enter Sandman at 399�
Smoke on the Water 426�

Well, one can only assume that the Ramones must be a favorite over at RS. I think they're crap got 3 mentions. Of course, let's be honest, their bias towards 60's groups and bands like U2 is painfully obvious. Every other song was U2, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, or some other group everybody forgot about years ago�like anything from Rick James. Who wrote this? Sixties nostalgia freaks?

Blitzkrieg Bop was one of their favorite songs�so it's pretty easy to say they have no taste. They should go back to glorifying Michael Moore.

Equally as idiotic is their top guitarist list.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Bluesky:
You idiots don't know what you're talking about. You weren't there when a lot of this music broke and apparently can't appreciate it.

And Teen Spirit does deserve top ten.

Nice use of the word "Idiot," there. Congrats!

Rolling Stone's skewed sense of the Importance Of Rock Criticism has cased that list to trend towards songs that were important stylistically at the time, but maybe not such good songs. It's a list of 500 songs that had a disproportionat influence on pop music, though not neccessarily a list of the "best."

They should call it "Rolling Stone's 500 Most Influential Songs," because some of them suck, or are worse than other songs by the same band, anyway.

Props to Nirvana for killing Poodle Rock, but in the long-term, Meh. Out of context, they just weren't that exciting.

[Fiend]

Hay now, don't group The Ramones with that ****ing Nirvana crap!

I'd put any of their songs (Ramones) ahead of any of that 90s crap.

[chris v]

Oh, and no Los Lobos? Pfft.

[BlueSky]

I wasn't much of a Nirvana fan, but when I heard Teen Spirit I loved it, still do. In the context of everything that's come out since '64 (when I first remember getting into music) it stands out like a huge cranky rabid screaming yellow, um, thing.

Hey, I could be a music reviewer. Not.

I've always been a die-hard Beatles fan but I don't begrudge Satisfaction being #2, nor Like a Rolling Stone #1. I'd differ on those but they're utter flucking classics.

[Shaddim]

No tool or NIN? Bloody hell!

[macroy]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
#9 Smells Like Teen Spirit
Nirvana
1991


You got to be kidding me...

I mean it's a killer song and all..

But to make it into the top 10.

No.

Oh of course! Especially since Kurt is one of the Greatest Guitarists of all time!


pfffff.... what a joke.

[Daracle]

I think they put Smells Like Teen Spirit on the list just for what it did to music and the industry.
Nobody can argue the fact that it had sent music in a very different direction (Mainstream wise)

[macroy]

Originally posted by Daracle:
I think they put Smells Like Teen Spirit on the list just for what it did to music and the industry.
Nobody can argue the fact that it had sent music in a very different direction (Mainstream wise)

No disputing you here - I actually think you have a point. But based on that, I would think "rock around the clock" would be there as well then...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by chris v:
Rolling Stone's criticism has always been severely tainted by an over-inflated sense of self-importance, and an over-reliance on trendyness. I bought their "HIstory of Rock and Roll" book years back, and all the SF bands like Quicksilver Messenger Service (who?) and Jefferson Airplane/Starship got pages of treatment, while other equally immportand bands from England went unmentioned, or got a paragraph (Pink Floyd) at best. It should have been a "History of the Friends of the Editors Of RS."

Quicksilver Messenger Service No, they were no Pink Floyd.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Bluesky:
You idiots don't know what you're talking about. You weren't there when a lot of this music broke and apparently can't appreciate it.

And Teen Spirit does deserve top ten.

I was. I remember when SLTP was played only late at night before it got popular. I seen Nirvana coming a mile down the road.

They weren't really anything new. If it wasn't for the REMs, Jane's Addictions, and Alice in Chains or Soundgarden (I remember seeing Kym Thayil wearing a Nirvana t-shirt years before Nevermind showed up) of the late 80s early 90s, Nirvana would have never been heard.

SLTS was a good song for it's time. But it def doesn't deserve the top 10. Not above some of the classic Zep tunes. No way.

Those tunes have stood up for MULTIPLE DECADES. SLTP is barely a decade old.

Two decades from now, if it's played just as much as Black Dog still is, I might change my mind a bit.

[OB1]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't read the music press anymore. The list is safe and pointless. As is arguing about whether "Smell's Like Teen Spirit" should be on it or not.

[zigzag]

Most of the judges are classic rock types, and the magazine itself is a product of the 60's, so it's no surprise that the list is loaded that way.

It helps to remember that if it weren't for "Like a Rolling Stone" and "Satisfaction," many of the other 498 might never have happened - they might sound quaint now, but they were groundbreaking records.

Prior to about 1975, "Satisfaction" was always voted top single of all time on the radio station polls. Then "Stairway" gradually took over the top spot. I don't know if radio stations do that sort of thing any more.

I was surprised that "Imagine" finished that high. A pleasant song but hardly worthy of No. 3 or even the top 100. But it's pointless to argue with people over their favorite songs.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zigzag:
It helps to remember that if it weren't for "Like a Rolling Stone" and "Satisfaction," many of the other 498 might never have happened - they might sound quaint now, but they were groundbreaking records.

Indeed, those two I don't have a problem with. Bob Dylan and the Rolling Stones. They deserve to be on there. Even if I can't stand the first.

Prior to about 1975, "Satisfaction" was always voted top single of all time on the radio station polls. Then "Stairway" gradually took over the top spot. I don't know if radio stations do that sort of thing any more.

I was surprised that "Imagine" finished that high. A pleasant song but hardly worthy of No. 3 or even the top 100. But it's pointless to argue with people over their favorite songs.

It def should have been top 10. Even if it was a idealistic song.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by macroy:
Oh of course! Especially since Kurt is one of the Greatest Guitarists of all time!

17: Jack White of the White Stripes
61: Ike Turner
70: Eddie Van Halen
72: Joni Mitchell
87: Joan Jett

Ahahahahahahaha. I must listen to more of this new fangled White Stripes stuff if the guy's better than Eddie.

Can't see Yngwie, Steve or Joe on the list. Guess they need some lessons off Joni and Joan. Or maybe Ike.

[brapper]

beyond the rankings, you have to admit as a list, it's all good to great music.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
17: Jack White of the White Stripes
61: Ike Turner
70: Eddie Van Halen
72: Joni Mitchell
87: Joan Jett

Ahahahahahahaha. I must listen to more of this new fangled White Stripes stuff if the guy's better than Eddie.

Can't see Yngwie, Steve or Joe on the list. Guess they need some lessons off Joni and Joan. Or maybe Ike.

I thought Angus Young at 96 was the biggest load of **** ever.
Rolling Stone isn't worth the laminated toilet paper it's printed on.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
17: Jack White of the White Stripes
61: Ike Turner
70: Eddie Van Halen
72: Joni Mitchell
87: Joan Jett

Ahahahahahahaha. I must listen to more of this new fangled White Stripes stuff if the guy's better than Eddie.

Can't see Yngwie, Steve or Joe on the list. Guess they need some lessons off Joni and Joan. Or maybe Ike.

Yes, being a guitar player myself, that list cracked me up.

Kurt would have laughed at it as well.

Kurt wasn't a "guitar player". He was a song writer. He just happened to play the guitar.

[saddino]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
#9 Smells Like Teen Spirit
Nirvana
1991


You got to be kidding me...

I mean it's a killer song and all..

But to make it into the top 10.

No.

Although I think SLTS is a decent song, the reason it's in the Top Ten is because it was a watershed moment in the industry. MTV didn't know where to play it, so it showed up on "Headbangers Ball" (ironically, along with all the hair metal it would eventually push out of the way). As it shot to #1 and the public (hence, blame ourselves not RS) started buying copies of Nevermind in droves, the whole industry realized that the "packaged" hair metal days were over -- and they were over fast if you listen to some of the guys in those band gripe about it.

So, while clearly the whole grunge movement was in place before Nirvana made it big, it was Nirvana making it big that made the difference and hence cements its place in so many a rock critic's top ten lists.

One of the more amusing ancedotes about this was by the lead singer of a hair band who had become used to seeing his band's posters plastered all over Geffen HQ. He said something akin to "And one month after SLTS made it to #1, we went to a meeting at Geffen and every single one of our posters had been replaced by Nirvana posters. That's when we knew that we were finished and could guess what the meeting was about."

Now, to end this with shameless promotion: shouldn't one of my band's songs be in the top 500?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by saddino:
One of the more amusing ancedotes about this was by the lead singer of a hair band who had become used to seeing his band's posters plastered all over Geffen HQ. He said something akin to "And one month after SLTS made it to #1, we went to a meeting at Geffen and every single one of our posters had been replaced by Nirvana posters. That's when we knew that we were finished and could guess what the meeting was about."

Actually that band was Warrant, and they were talking about Alice in Chains. Not Nirvana.

I remember the incident.

But age isn't necessarily the issue. Because Warrant was part of the '80s glam metal scene that included acts such as Poison, Cinderella, and Skid Row, it was a particular target for the alternative rock acts that emerged in the early '90s. Lane confirms the story that he knew the writing was on the wall when he walked into the offices of Columbia to see a picture of the grunge act Alice in Chains where a Warrant poster used to be.

"I didn't like the negativity toward the '80s bands," Lane says. "The grunge bands all loved each other, but the '80s sucked. I thought it was a little harsh. But **** 'em. They're all broken up now."

http://clevescene.com/issues/2001-01-18/soundbites.html

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
17: Jack White of the White Stripes
61: Ike Turner
70: Eddie Van Halen
72: Joni Mitchell
87: Joan Jett

Ahahahahahahaha. I must listen to more of this new fangled White Stripes stuff if the guy's better than Eddie.

Can't see Yngwie, Steve or Joe on the list. Guess they need some lessons off Joni and Joan. Or maybe Ike.

You might want to educate yourself about Ike and Joni - they made important contributions to the guitar vocabulary. Some of us are more interested in style than speed.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by zigzag:
You might want to educate yourself about Ike and Joni - they made important contributions to the guitar vocabulary. Some of us are more interested in style than speed.

Well if you're more interested in style than speed, I still recommend you educate yourself in the techniques of Yngwie, Steve and Joe. Your comments about "speed over style" mark you out as one who hasn't really listened to those modern players, dismissing them as simply "speed merchants" or similar.

If you'd like to point out the important contributions Ike and Joni have made to guitar vocabulary, I'll be willing to take a look/listen with an open mind.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Kurt would have laughed at it as well.

Kurt wasn't a "guitar player". He was a song writer. He just happened to play the guitar.

Agreed. Ever noticed how Nirvana's main instrument is actually the bass?

[Zimphire]

Joni and Ike were influential in their time.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Agreed. Ever noticed how Nirvana's main instrument is actually the bass?

Yeah. He couldn't play himself out of Music class.

[Sherwin, ya might wanna check your PMs every once in awhile. ]

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Joni and Ike were influential in their time.

In what way? Please, someone educate me.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Well if you're more interested in style than speed, I still recommend you educate yourself in the techniques of Yngwie, Steve and Joe. Your comments about "speed over style" mark you out as one who hasn't really listened to those modern players, dismissing them as simply "speed merchants" or similar.

If you'd like to point out the important contributions Ike and Joni have made to guitar vocabulary, I'll be willing to take a look/listen with an open mind.

Joni Mitchell is known for her unusual tunings. That Jaco Pastorius would record some of his best work with her should speak volumes.

[MindFad]

Paranoid Android made 256. Pffft.

[MacGorilla]

They ranked U2's "One" in the top 50? WTF? I mean, its a good song, but its not that good and certainly not their best effort. (Hello, "Sunday Bloody Sunday", "Pride(In the name of love)")

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
In what way? Please, someone educate me.

http://www.vintageguitar.com/music/details.asp?ID=356

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by chris v:
Joni Mitchell is known for her unusual tunings.

Were these ground-breaking at the time? They hadn't been covered by loads of old black blues players already?

Originally posted by chris v:
That Jaco Pastorius would record some of his best work with her should speak volumes.

No indication of anything, sorry. It could be that Jaco's work was best with Joni because he had to make up for her failings, had to work harder to make the songs gel.

[BlueSky]

I'm a bit surprised Ruby and the Spaz Boys didn't make the list.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
http://www.vintageguitar.com/music/details.asp?ID=356

Hmmm... This warrants further investigation. Time to break out the "alternative port" software. I'll report back.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Well if you're more interested in style than speed, I still recommend you educate yourself in the techniques of Yngwie, Steve and Joe. Your comments about "speed over style" mark you out as one who hasn't really listened to those modern players, dismissing them as simply "speed merchants" or similar.

If you'd like to point out the important contributions Ike and Joni have made to guitar vocabulary, I'll be willing to take a look/listen with an open mind.

I thought your reference to "lessons" implied that technique, which is what those guys are best-known for, was the most important thing, and I responded accordingly. Anyway, Ike was one of the most distinctive R&B players and one of the first to feature a whammy bar. Joni is known among guitar players, if not the general public, for introducing unique tunings. I expect that if asked, Eddie et al. would corroborate this.

I don't put much stock in rankings like this either - some of these things simply can't be measured. But it's always fun to argue.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Were these ground-breaking at the time? They hadn't been covered by loads of old black blues players already?

Yes. No.

No indication of anything, sorry. It could be that Jaco's work was best with Joni because he had to make up for her failings, had to work harder to make the songs gel.

No.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Bluesky:
I'm a bit surprised Ruby and the Spaz Boys didn't make the list.

I lawled.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by zigzag:
(alternate tunings) Yes. No.

http://www.netsector.com/tony/guitar/alternate.htm

There have long been alternate ways to tune the guitar. In an 1838 guitar method book, The Elements of Guitar, a version of the tune Spanish Fandango, titled simply "Fandango" is presented as an example of a song in a "Peculiar Tuning", which turns out to be Open G. Alternate tunings started to have more popularity in the USA around 1920 with rise of the blues. The tuning that became most popular with the blues players is open G, or DGDGBD. The blues players used this tuning with and without a slide or bottleneck. It became known also as Slack Key tuning and is used in a distinctive playing style in Hawaii to this day. "This tuning has much in common with the standard G tuning on five string banjo, and because of this, a theory has been advanced that it is an "original" American invention. However this same note sequence appears in the tuning of the German cittern- the Thuringer Waldzither. Since many of the early American guitar makers came from those areas in which the Waldzither was the most widely used plucked instrument- it is just as likely that "Slack Key" was brought to the U.S.A. by one of these European immigrants."1

A possible reason to use certain open tunings (besides facilitating the making of chords with one finger) is that the tension on the guitar strings and hence the amount of finger pressure required to hold down the string is reduced. A player with a cheap guitar that is already straining the abilities of his fingertips might be easily convinced about the merits of open G. Another tuning used in early blues playing was open E minor EBEGBE, which could be fretted to a major chord by raising the G to G#. Other tunings used were DADGBD and DGDGCD.

As folk and blues players progressed in their abilities, the widespread usage of these tunings declined. The obvious reasons for this are a disdain for the utter simplicity and lack of flexibility in using only one finger to make a chord, and the fact that almost all guitar method books published, then as well as now, are for standard tuning.

A turning point was reached, though it is difficult to say exactly what year, when players realized that one could play scales and chords in the alternate tunings, and make complex arrangements using these skills. The advantages were apparent, but the task was difficult. The most obvious advantage noticed by experienced players trying a new tuning is that chords and arpeggios which are difficult or impossible in standard tuning become workable in alternate tunings. They also noticed that in some tunings the open intervals provide a basic foundation that makes the playing of certain musical styles, such as Scottish and Irish, sound more like the typical settings for that music. Also, many composers of guitar tunes found that being freed from the same old chords and sounds they had gotten used to on the guitar, and being forced to find new ones, inspired their creativity in many ways.

We could say that the recent movement of alternate tuning started in the early 60's and was in full force by the early 70's. The revolution came from several fronts, and all players using alternate tunings today (outside of blues revivalists) can trace their inspirations back to three waves of influence.
The first wave began in the early sixties with the British fingerstyle guitarists Davey Graham, Martin Carthy, John Renbourn, and Bert Jansch. The latter two were the core of the popular British folk group Pentangle and featured complex and challenging guitar arrangements in the group's material. Most of what these players did at that time is seminal to what has happened stateside with regard to the use of alternate tunings. It is said that Davey Graham "invented" DADGAD, and that he is the founder of the British folk revival. Some background on the roots of the British acoustic guitar playing revival of the early 60's is found in the 1977 British book "Guitars" by Tom and Mary Anne Evans:

"Whereas American steel-string players are heavily blues based both in original inspiration and style, English musicians are more eclectic. There is an important historical reason underlying this: while American folk music, whether black or white, has a long tradition of guitar accompaniment, there has been no equivalent use of the guitar in English or European music. Before the 1950's, the one way for a guitarist to make a living was in a dance band. Thus when the revival of interest in the steel string guitar began in Britain in the late 1950's, there was no ready made audience with pre-formed musical tastes, and no one obvious tradition to draw on for inspiration. The English players were therefore not inhibited from using a wide range of sources in creating their own music. These sources included American blues and country music, and whatever elements could be suitably adapted to the guitar from traditional British music, Indian music, Irish pipe and fiddle tunes."2

The British players extended this eclectic freedom to encompass alternate tunings. If a tuning allowed a player's style to be enhanced or extended, or to emulate certain ethnic music sounds, there was little hesitation to utilize it. Ironically, most of the British players, when asked, claim American bluesmen as being a motivating force in their development.

The next direction came from what I will call "Fingerstyle Guitar Heroes". This group is characterized by John Fahey and Leo Kottke. Almost everything they played was in something other than standard tuning. In the case of Leo Kottke, a whole style of playing was introduced by his tunings and fierce right hand technique. The playing styles of Fahey and Kottke were largely influenced by country and blues: a tuning they favored was DGDGBD. A unique aspect of their popularity is simply that they were solo guitar players. The next heroes to bring tunings out of the closet and onto the turntable were Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed. Chet recorded tunes such as "Blue Gypsy" in DGDGBD (Open G) as early as 1952, and confounded more than a few players with Reed's "Steeplechase Lane" (DGDEBD) in the early 70's. Some of Jerry's complex and tricky tunes are possible only by virtue of an alternate tuning. One of Chet's finest albums in the eyes of many players is his 1973 "Chet Atkins Alone". This album featured unique arrangements of many old and familiar tunes arranged in several tunings as well as innovative new tunes.

I'll give Joni this next paragraph - but as you can see, what she was doing was really nothing new if you live outside of the US.

The third wave came with the Singer/ Songwriters of the late 60's, notably David Crosby and Joni Mitchell. David Crosby is a excellent "guitar thinker" and folk-pop innovator. I am sure that a whole generation of folk guitarists spent perplexing hours trying to figure out how to play songs such as "Guinnevere" and "Wooden Ships", which were in unique tunings and playing styles. Joni Mitchell was unique in that she was one of the few singer/ songwriters who could actually play the instrument. She used tunings as a creative part of the song writing process. Paul Simon brought a playing style back from England which was new to many American ears with his arrangements of such tunes as "Scarborough Fair" and Davey Graham's "Anji".