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Republicans and the U.S. census
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olePigeon
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Mar 30, 2010, 11:09 PM
 
Do they realize that not filling out the U.S. census means less representation in the House? Never mind that it's illegal not to fill it out.
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subego
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Mar 30, 2010, 11:55 PM
 
Whut?
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:26 AM
 
I've been hearing on the radio that there was a rising anti-census movement amongst conservative Republicans, enough to have a few Republican senators telling other senators to stop encouraging it.
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hyteckit
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:27 AM
 
It's just the Republicans plan to stop government from doing anything.

Party of HELL NO!

Census? No.
Health Care reform? No.
National Security? No.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
subego
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:51 AM
 
I was only able to dig up two Representatives.

One is Ron Paul, who's being typical Ron Paul.

The other is Michelle Bachmann, who's just batshit.

Not exactly a pandemic.
     
ebuddy
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Mar 31, 2010, 06:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Do they realize that not filling out the U.S. census means less representation in the House? Never mind that it's illegal not to fill it out.
Well... I might be thankful for a shortened form for the 2010 Census, but that's only because they're sending out mandatory Census "longer forms" to 1 in 6 households every year. Questions like...
  • Does this house, apartment, or mobile home have hot and cold running water, a flush toilet, a bathtub or shower, a sink with a faucet, a refrigerator, a stove?
  • Last month, what was the cost of electricity for this house, apartment, or mobile home?
  • How many times has this person been married?

If I say I've been married 8 times, do I get more representation in the House?
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Mar 31, 2010, 06:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
It's just the Republicans plan to stop government from doing anything outside of its Constitutional jurisdiction.
fixed.

Party of HELL NO!
Hell yes!

Census? No.
correct.

Health Care reform? No.
You mean insurance company reform and handing the student loan industry over to the government? Yeah, hell no.

National Security? No.
National Security? What the?

2010 Census: it's for the children and all puppies everywhere.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Mar 31, 2010, 06:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I was only able to dig up two Representatives.

One is Ron Paul, who's being typical Ron Paul.

The other is Michelle Bachmann, who's just batshit.

Not exactly a pandemic.
Why is Michelle Bachmann batshit?
What is typical Ron Paul?
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Dork.
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Mar 31, 2010, 07:20 AM
 
Here are results 1-10 of 13,200 for "Michelle Bachmann batshit crazy". I expect nothing less than a detailed examination of all 13,200 sources and why they are all shills for ACORN.


Isn't the Census the one thing that we're doing that's actually in the Constitution? Why would you not fill the form out? That will actually cost the Government more money, because they will have to dispatch a census worker to find you.
     
ghporter
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Mar 31, 2010, 07:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
Here are results 1-10 of 13,200 for "Michelle Bachmann batshit crazy". I expect nothing less than a detailed examination of all 13,200 sources and why they are all shills for ACORN.


Isn't the Census the one thing that we're doing that's actually in the Constitution? Why would you not fill the form out? That will actually cost the Government more money, because they will have to dispatch a census worker to find you.
Conducting the census is indeed required in the Constitution-the basic document, not even an amendment, and very early in the document, too.

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turtle777
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Mar 31, 2010, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Party of HELL NO!

Census? No.
Health Care reform? No.
National Security? No.
Hyteckit? HELL NO !!1!1one

-t
     
BadKosh
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:05 AM
 
They can't figure stuff out from your tax filings? Filing jointly, 3 dependents? Seems like 5 to me. When did those dependents first show up? It can be done without all the BS IF we had smart people in the gov't to query those databases.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
I've been hearing on the radio that there was a rising anti-census movement amongst conservative Republicans, enough to have a few Republican senators telling other senators to stop encouraging it.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Conducting the census is indeed required in the Constitution-the basic document, not even an amendment, and very early in the document, too.
I thought Republicans were huge fans of the Constitution? Some of them are really getting carried away with the sour grapes.
     
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:37 AM
 
Republicans huge fans of the Constitution?

Only parts they like. Just like how the like to pick and choose parts of the Bible they like.

Come on, Republicans want a Constitution Amendment to ban gay marriages.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
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SpaceMonkey
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Mar 31, 2010, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
They can't figure stuff out from your tax filings? Filing jointly, 3 dependents? Seems like 5 to me. When did those dependents first show up? It can be done without all the BS IF we had smart people in the gov't to query those databases.
We could put all of that data in the cloud. No one would mind, right?

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Doofy
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
IF we had smart people in the gov't to query those databases.
Those who can do do. Those who can't do teach. Those who can't do and can't teach go into politics and make life miserable for the rest of us.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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olePigeon  (op)
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
fixed.
Except that it is Constitutional to collect data outside of a simple head count, that was the spirit of the article. As early as 1870, the Supreme Court characterized as unquestionable the power of Congress to require both an enumeration and the collection of statistics in the census.
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nonhuman
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:22 PM
 
Personally, I wish the census had asked for more information. All it asks for is the number and race of people in the household. This is useless information (well, the number is useful). Using nothing but skin color to define demographics ensures that the minorities who are marginalized for non-visible traits (beliefs and such) will continue to be so.
     
nonhuman
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Mar 31, 2010, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Come on, Republicans want a Constitution Amendment to ban gay marriages.
That's proof that they care about the Constitution. If they didn't, they'd just go about trying to enforce their beliefs without legal standing!


...


Oh, wait...
     
Macrobat
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Mar 31, 2010, 03:15 PM
 
Republicans are not advocating NOT participating in the Census. They are advocating NOT answering all the race-based questions that are not in the Constitutional mandate for the Census.

The only thing Constitutionally-mandated is a simple COUNT of how many people there are in the country. More than 3/4s of the pages in the Census form is about "what race are you?"
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subego
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Mar 31, 2010, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why is Michelle Bachmann batshit?
Couldn't tell you.

To be honest, I was paying more attention to the structure of my post than its precision. I should have phrased it says batshit stuff.

Like:

"I find it interesting that it was back in the 1970s that the swine flu broke out then under another Democrat president Jimmy Carter. And I'm not blaming this on President Obama, I just think it's an interesting coincidence."

Or

"There's already an agreement made... They [Iran] are going to get half of Iraq and that is going to be a terrorist safe haven zone where they can go ahead and bring about more attacks in the Middle East region and then to come against the United States, because we are their avowed enemy."

Or

"Normalization [of homosexuality] through desensitization. Very effective way to do this with a bunch of second graders, is take a picture of 'The Lion King' for instance, and a teacher might say, 'Do you know that the music for this movie was written by a gay man?' The message is: I’m better at what I do, because I’m gay."



Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What is typical Ron Paul?
Libertarian past the point of good sense. Like with his opinions on foreign policy for example.
     
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Mar 31, 2010, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Republicans are not advocating NOT participating in the Census. They are advocating NOT answering all the race-based questions that are not in the Constitutional mandate for the Census.

The only thing Constitutionally-mandated is a simple COUNT of how many people there are in the country. More than 3/4s of the pages in the Census form is about "what race are you?"
The census form is just another way to have people look at their differences rather than their similarities. It's all about the politics of division. A not-so-subtle brainwashing of how different is better.

I also refuse to answer any racial questions, but mainly because I fit into the "Other" categories every time.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Mar 31, 2010, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Republicans are not advocating NOT participating in the Census. They are advocating NOT answering all the race-based questions that are not in the Constitutional mandate for the Census.

The only thing Constitutionally-mandated is a simple COUNT of how many people there are in the country. More than 3/4s of the pages in the Census form is about "what race are you?"
Race data is required to fairly administer a variety of programs, as well as for states to comply with the Voting Rights Act. You might as well complain about them asking for your gender, which is required for a similar purpose.

Do you ignore the gender question?

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OAW
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Mar 31, 2010, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Race data is required to fairly administer a variety of programs, as well as for states to comply with the Voting Rights Act. You might as well complain about them asking for your gender, which is required for a similar purpose.

Do you ignore the gender question?
Exactly. It's a compliance issue. As the old adage goes ...

What doesn't get measured doesn't get done.

OAW
     
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Mar 31, 2010, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Exactly. It's a compliance issue. As the old adage goes ...

What doesn't get measured doesn't get done.

OAW
That's what she said.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 31, 2010, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Do you ignore the gender question?
Yes, but mainly because I fit into the "Other" categories every time.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Mar 31, 2010, 05:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Yes, but mainly because I fit into the "Other" categories every time.
Fine! Your sex, then, which is what I should have said.

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SpaceMonkey
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Mar 31, 2010, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Well... I might be thankful for a shortened form for the 2010 Census, but that's only because they're sending out mandatory Census "longer forms" to 1 in 6 households every year. Questions like...
  • Does this house, apartment, or mobile home have hot and cold running water, a flush toilet, a bathtub or shower, a sink with a faucet, a refrigerator, a stove?
  • Last month, what was the cost of electricity for this house, apartment, or mobile home?
  • How many times has this person been married?

If I say I've been married 8 times, do I get more representation in the House?
The American Community Survey is a separate, ongoing survey (new forms are sent out every month).

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ebuddy
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:04 PM
 
Everyone be sure to complete your census like good little sheeple. It's for the children... and cute puppy dogs... and to know exactly what race you are and where because of course it's critical that they know.
States will be pleased to know that by ushering in massive amounts of illegal residents they'll be augmenting their representation as well.

OlePigeon, as far as I know the Constitution has not been amended to include "statistics". It is to be a head count. Period. Lest we be unable to avail ourselves of the very definition of enumeration.

How many have been imprisoned for not completing their census forms anyway? Like... zero or something? What do I care if the government has an adequate understanding of how large their social programs have to be to meet needs they have no intention of effectively meeting?

The real question is; Democrats and the US census, why is it so revered?
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
The American Community Survey is a separate, ongoing survey (new forms are sent out every month).
Oh! A separate survey called the American Community Survey. Thanks for the info SpaceMonkey.
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ghporter
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
They can't figure stuff out from your tax filings? Filing jointly, 3 dependents? Seems like 5 to me. When did those dependents first show up? It can be done without all the BS IF we had smart people in the gov't to query those databases.
No, they cannot. The IRS is barred by law from releasing personal data of any kind. It takes a special subpoena to get tax information.

What's the big deal about telling someone how many people live in your home, what their ages and ethnicities are? Take a couple of minutes, fill out a very simple form, and ensure that you get your fair share of representation in the House. That's hard?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
turtle777
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
No, they cannot. The IRS is barred by law from releasing personal data of any kind. It takes a special subpoena to get tax information.
You mean, even a constitutional amendment couldn't fix that.

Ah, scratch that, politicians in Washington give a rats ass about the Constitution.

So, I really don't see how there is anything hindering the politicians to do so.

BUT, of course, the census is a nice "stimulus", so you bet they're gonna waste $2 for every $1 in jobs created. Awesome.

-t
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Mar 31, 2010, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
OlePigeon, as far as I know the Constitution has not been amended to include "statistics". It is to be a head count. Period. Lest we be unable to avail ourselves of the very definition of enumeration.
Barely 80 years after the Constitution was signed, it was decided by the Supreme Court that the Congress could also collect statistics. These statistics are critical in evaluating poverty, crime, municipal services, social services, income, divorce rates, federal and state funding, etc., and once a decade we can get a really good picture of the current state of the residents of our country.

You strike me as someone who's just very lazy and likes to complain a lot.
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SpaceMonkey
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Mar 31, 2010, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Oh! A separate survey called the American Community Survey. Thanks for the info SpaceMonkey.
You know me, always trying to be helpful.

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SpaceMonkey
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Mar 31, 2010, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
and to know exactly what race you are and where because of course it's critical that they know.
Given existing law, yes, it is. Would you prefer that Congress pass laws that it has no intention of seeing enforced, or that the Executive Branch ignore its programmatic needs in administering laws? It doesn't make any sense to me to levy a blanket criticism of the perceived invasiveness of the census in isolation. If you agree with the laws that necessitate collecting this data, then you should have no problem in answering the questions. If you disagree with the laws that necessitate collecting this data, then your issue is with those laws. But if you actually research the reasons why they ask for all of this data, I think it is unlikely that you will uniformly find yourself on either side.

Given that the very first census collected "statistics," I don't understand the general controversy.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; Mar 31, 2010 at 10:21 PM. )

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Everyone be sure to complete your census like good little sheeple. It's for the children... and cute puppy dogs...
Sign number one this post is a reactionary response to a post pointing out you were wrong
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Apr 1, 2010, 01:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Republicans are not advocating NOT participating in the Census. They are advocating NOT answering all the race-based questions that are not in the Constitutional mandate for the Census.

The only thing Constitutionally-mandated is a simple COUNT of how many people there are in the country. More than 3/4s of the pages in the Census form is about "what race are you?"
This.

Not that I particularly mind answering the questions about race myself, but one can't help but notice that it's the main focus of the freakin' thing.

As a side note, I find it funny the the form is in english/spanish, but then all the race-based questions seemed doubly silly with answers like Japanese spelled out in Spanish. Really, are there that many 'Japanenos' and Korenos etc. that they need their own survey section?

Meanwhile, the American Community Survey is a little more interesting. I guess that used to be the long form of the actual census, but probably too many people are too damned lazy to fill it out. It does the opposite and goes into almost too much detail.
     
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Apr 1, 2010, 06:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Barely 80 years after the Constitution was signed, it was decided by the Supreme Court that the Congress could also collect statistics. These statistics are critical in evaluating poverty, crime, municipal services, social services, income, divorce rates, federal and state funding, etc., and once a decade we can get a really good picture of the current state of the residents of our country.
Could you show me any evidence that the founders intended the Census to be for the purpose of evaluating any of the above? It's my understanding that they made it pretty clear that the Census would be used to determine representation in Congress. I do understand that from time to time the Supreme Court makes stuff up because they personally think it's a good idea, but that has little to do with what the Constitution actually was meant to provide. In other words, "B.S."

Someone else stated that the first Census collected other statistics as well. Could someone tell us what was included in the first Census? I'm guessing that's pretty much what the Founders intended, since that's what they gave us.
     
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Apr 1, 2010, 07:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Could someone tell us what was included in the first Census?
Originally Posted by 1790 Census
Name of the head of each household.
How many free white males age 16 and older.
How many free white males under age 16.
How many free white females.
How many of all other free persons.
How many slaves.
From censusfinder.com
     
ebuddy
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Apr 1, 2010, 07:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Sign number one this post is a reactionary response to a post pointing out you were wrong
Mine was completed about a week ago. The responses to me have also failed to address my complaints, did you PM them or something?

Between you, me, and everyone else... I really don't see what mischief the Federal Government can bring upon me by knowing what race I am or in the ACS, whether or not I have a flush toilet. That said, it sucks that the well-documented "good folks" at ACORN have taken the oath of confidentiality with the 2010 census data. It sucks that there is nothing to extract legal from illegal residents, and it's questionable that the Executive would make the call to move it from Commerce to the Executive, but again... even if they sought to violate my privacy the information contained within is not critical.

I am curious however, why it is so revered. I'll use one of SpaceMonkey's responses as an example-

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey
Would you prefer that Congress pass laws that it has no intention of seeing enforced, or that the Executive Branch ignore its programmatic needs in administering laws?
  • Passing laws with no intention of enforcement? You mean like those regarding the completion of the census?
  • Executive Branch ignoring its programmatic needs in administering laws? Since when have "programmatic needs" been an integral part of administering laws?
ebuddy
     
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Apr 1, 2010, 07:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by 2010 census
how many free white males age 16 and older.
0

Originally Posted by 2010 census
how many free white males under age 16.
0

Originally Posted by 2010 census
how many free white females.
0

Originally Posted by 2010 census
how many of all other free persons.
0

Originally Posted by 2010 census
how many slaves.
~308,984,000
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ebuddy
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Apr 1, 2010, 07:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
0



0



0



0



~308,984,000
ebuddy
     
ghporter
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Apr 1, 2010, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I do understand that from time to time the Supreme Court makes stuff up because they personally think it's a good idea, but that has little to do with what the Constitution actually was meant to provide. In other words, "B.S."
I think your aim is a little wide. SCOTUS decides on legalities, but the "other uses" of census data you're alluding to come from Congress. Gathering information on things like ethnicity and the like allow specific programs to operate. They are side issues though-enumerating the population is what the Constitution mandates the Census for. That it takes a few seconds more to enter information that gets anonymized as soon as it's entered is truly trivial and at worst helps with operation of some minor bureaucracy.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Big Mac
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Apr 1, 2010, 07:42 AM
 
Name of the head of each household.
How many free white males age 16 and older.
How many free white males under age 16.
How many free white females.
How many of all other free persons.
How many slaves.
Why was it necessary to specify free and white? Why not just white? Were there some white people who were slaves?

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Apr 1, 2010, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
  • Passing laws with no intention of enforcement? You mean like those regarding the completion of the census?
  • Executive Branch ignoring its programmatic needs in administering laws? Since when have "programmatic needs" been an integral part of administering laws?
Are you being facetious? If Congress passes a law that in order to implement requires an accurate understanding of certain demographic features, then yes, that is an integral need in administering the law.

I am curious however, why it is so revered.
I don't think anyone here "reveres" it. I don't think you should find it surprising, though, that some find the overblown conspiracy concerns of others irritating, especially when they are being encouraged by people in positions of authority who should know better.

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nonhuman
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Apr 1, 2010, 09:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Why was it necessary to specify free and white? Why not just white? Were there some white people who were slaves?
Indentured servants, perhaps?
     
Big Mac
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Apr 1, 2010, 09:10 AM
 
Learned something new, then. I always thought indentured servitude in American lexicon was just a euphemism for slave.

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The Final Dakar
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Apr 1, 2010, 09:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Indentured servants, perhaps?
My first thought as well.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Apr 1, 2010, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Why was it necessary to specify free and white? Why not just white? Were there some white people who were slaves?
I think they simply wanted to make clear the distinction between "free and white" and "free and other." I take your point, though. Indentured servitude was still practiced, but I think they would still consider those people "free" in this context.

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Big Mac
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Apr 1, 2010, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
I think they simply wanted to make clear the distinction between "free and white" and "free and other." I take your point, though. Indentured servitude was still practiced, but I think they would still consider those people "free" in this context.
Strangely this time my point wasn't very good though. The 13th Amendment refers to both slavery and indentured servitude, so I should have known there was a distinction.

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