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Ex-Guantanamo Bay detainee involved in hotel bombing
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moki
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Nov 4, 2004, 10:30 AM
 
sigh. Wish he'd been kept there; and these people should be put into our court system?

from: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=6675237

.....

Kidnapper of Chinese Claims Pakistan Hotel Blast
Mon Nov 1, 2004 07:40 AM ET

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Abdullah Mehsud, a former Guantanamo Bay inmate who masterminded the kidnapping of two Chinese engineers, has claimed responsibility for a blast last week at Islamabad's Marriott Hotel, a journalist said on Monday.

Pakistani journalist Rahimullah Yusufzai said Abdullah, the target of a huge manhunt after the kidnapping of the engineers last month, made the claim after contacting him by telephone from an undisclosed location on Sunday.

"We carried out the Marriott bomb blast," Yusufzai quoted him as saying.

An explosion hit the Marriott Hotel on Thursday, injuring seven people, including a U.S. diplomat, two Italians and the Pakistani prime minister's chief security officer.

The government and the hotel immediately said it was not a terrorist attack and was most probably caused by an electrical short circuit.

But the State Department said it believed the blast, which happened while 11 U.S. officials were at the hotel for a dinner, was caused by a bomb and the U.S. embassy has advised its citizens to stay away from the Marriott.

Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed dismissed Abdullah's claim. "He just wants to play to the gallery, the media," he said. "It was an electrical short circuit."

Intelligence advisory service Stratfor said indications were that the blast was caused by a sophisticated explosive device intended to harm Westerners, U.S. diplomats or the Western hotel chain.

Abdullah had said a U.S. and a British national were killed in the blast, said Yusufzai, who has many years of experience covering Afghanistan. Reuters witnesses saw no such casualties.

Abdullah threatened to carry out more bombings, but did not elaborate, Yusufzai said.

The Pakistani army began hunting Abdullah in the rugged semi-autonomous South Waziristan tribal region near the border with Afghanistan after he masterminded the kidnapping of Chinese engineers on Oct. 9, testing ties with key Pakistani ally China.

One of the hostages and all of the kidnappers, whom Abdullah had directed from a secret location, were killed when Pakistani commandos launched a rescue operation six days later.

Senior Pakistani military officials said last month Abdullah was thought to be in the Spinkai Raghzai area of South Waziristan with other al Qaeda suspects, but was constantly on the move.

South Waziristan has been the scene of fierce clashes between security forces and al Qaeda-linked militants in recent months. Hundreds of al Qaeda fighters, including Chechens, Uzbeks and Arabs, are believed to be hiding in the region.
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
BoomStick
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Nov 4, 2004, 11:27 AM
 
Buut bb but, they are innocent detainees with no ill intentions.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Nov 4, 2004, 12:08 PM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Buut bb but, they are innocent detainees with no ill intentions.
Guess what, you catch this guy again and you can hold him as long as you want. Ideally he would
be killed in an attempt to capture him by the US military and save us the problem of incarceration.

But, ill intentions are not reason enough to detain someone in a military prison indefinitely.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
BoomStick
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Nov 4, 2004, 01:30 PM
 
When he was detained no people died.

Now they are dead, it's too late.

I agree he should have died in the firefight.

But alas, we barbaric Ameri's take prisoners instead of slaughtering.
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 01:33 PM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
But alas, we barbaric Ameri's take prisoners instead of slaughtering.
It's the price we pay for living in civilized society.
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 01:34 PM
 
Can anyone use the term 'suspiciously innocent'?

These people were/ are in Gitmo for a reason.
     
Nicko
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Nov 4, 2004, 01:37 PM
 
Originally posted by moki:
sigh. Wish he'd been kept there; and these people should be put into our court system?

Ah, more right wing propaganda from moki. Wait a second, this isn't even right wing, its FUD. What exactly are you trying to say here citing this story?

I thought in your country it was innocient until proven guilty?
     
Shaddim
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Nov 4, 2004, 01:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
Ah, more right wing propaganda from moki. Wait a second, this isn't even right wing, its FUD. What exactly are you trying to say here citing this story?

I thought in your country it was innocient until proven guilty?
There you go again, trying to apply our Constitution towards non-citizens. It's obvious that many, if not most, of the people imprisoned at gitmo were like the guy above. Now, some of these psychopaths are out doing what they were doing before.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Nicko
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Nov 4, 2004, 01:49 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
There you go again, trying to apply our Constitution towards non-citizens. It's obvious that many, if not most, of the people imprisoned at gitmo were like the guy above. Now, some of these psychopaths are out doing what they were doing before.
Its called the price of freedom. Perhaps one day your government may lock you up for a few months on suspicion. Would you be so flippant about the subject then as now?
     
Shaddim
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
Its called the price of freedom. Perhaps one day your government may lock you up for a few months on suspicion. Would you be so flippant about the subject then as now?
Nice fear tactic, typical Liberal style.

US citizens are treated differently that non-US citizens in the eyes of our legal system, especially given the circumstances. Those prisoners weren't carted away to Gitmo because they were just being "good people".
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Nicko
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:09 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nice fear tactic, typical Liberal style.

US citizens are treated differently that non-US citizens in the eyes of our legal system, especially given the circumstances. Those prisoners weren't carted away to Gitmo because they were just being "good people".
Interesting. This is why I like being Canadian, as long as you are a person (citizen or no) you have rights and freedoms. Or maybe we are just terrorist sympathyzers?

Any country that imprisions people for great lenghts of time without trial or charge is on its way to becoming something other than "free".
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:12 PM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
Interesting. This is why I like being Canadian, as long as you are a person (citizen or no) you have rights and freedoms. Or maybe we are just terrorist sympathyzers?

Any country that imprisions people for great lenghts of time without trial or charge is on its way to becoming something other than "free".
What is your familiarity with the concept of war. We already know canadians understand the concept of harboring terrorists, but what is your understanding of fighting a war where a faction wants to kill you. Do you choose life or do you choose imprisoning enemy combatants who are suspiciously innocent until the truth can be determined?
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:17 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Do you choose life or do you choose imprisoning enemy combatants who are suspiciously innocent until the truth can be determined?
And if they come up clean, what do they get for losing months of their life while you determine their innocence?

Its not about choosing life. What you are doing is prioritizing your life over theirs. Aganst a clearly defined foe, that works, but in a war such as this, I'm not sure I'm willing to accept some of the methods we're choosing.
     
Nicko
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:21 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
What is your familiarity with the concept of war. We already know canadians understand the concept of harboring terrorists, but what is your understanding of fighting a war where a faction wants to kill you. Do you choose life or do you choose imprisoning enemy combatants who are suspiciously innocent until the truth can be determined?
We follow the Geneva Convention and our Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms (which you don't in the US). And we would call them war criminals (if they were), not some made up term like 'enemy combatants' just so we could act like a third rate dictatorship.

So no, I'm quite confident that Canadians would not give into FEAR and FUD.
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
And if they come up clean, what do they get for losing months of their life while you determine their innocence?

Its not about choosing life. What you are doing is prioritizing your life over theirs. Aganst a clearly defined foe, that works, but in a war such as this, I'm not sure I'm willing to accept some of the methods we're choosing.
I can understand that POV, but when it comes down to an American soldier and potential mass murderer...I choose the American soldier.

Does anyone have any data as to the number of prisoners in Gitmo who were not apprehended in a war theater?

If they come up clean...sorry. This is war. Nothing is fair in war and love. You know that.
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
We follow the Geneva Convention and our Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms (which you don't in the US). And we would call them war criminals (if they were), not some made up term like 'enemy combatants' just so we could act like a third rate dictatorship.

So no, I'm quite confident that Canadians would not give into FEAR and FUD.
What if they were soldiers from the other side, what would you do, let them go?

If we called them POW's, would your attitude change?
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:48 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
I can understand that POV, but when it comes down to an American soldier and potential mass murderer...I choose the American soldier.
When we're dealing with potentials, I don't think it's fair to start prioritizing one persons life over another. Life is life, if you respect it.


Originally posted by dcolton:
If they come up clean...sorry. This is war. Nothing is fair in war and love. You know that.
If you don't have anything on them early on, you have to let them go. If they resurface as criminals or militants later, sorry. Life isn't always fair. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do what is right.
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
When we're dealing with potentials, I don't think it's fair to start prioritizing one persons life over another. Life is life, if you respect it.


If you don't have anything on them early on, you have to let them go. If they resurface as criminals or militants later, sorry. Life isn't always fair. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do what is right.
Now I can't understand your POV. Do you mind if I ask what you do for a living. What sports do you enjoy..what sports do/ did you compete in? How old are you?
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 02:59 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Now I can't understand your POV. Do you mind if I ask what you do for a living. What sports do you enjoy..what sports do/ did you compete in? How old are you?
No. I don't need to give you ammo to paint me into generalizations with. If you need me to clarify something I will. I'll let my opinions and perspectives speak for themselves.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:02 PM
 
Originally posted by Nicko:
Interesting. This is why I like being Canadian, as long as you are a person (citizen or no) you have rights and freedoms. Or maybe we are just terrorist sympathyzers?

Any country that imprisions people for great lenghts of time without trial or charge is on its way to becoming something other than "free".
Are you terrorist sympathizers? That's for you to decide. Also, it depends on what a person considers a "great length of time". Apparently, that guy wasn't held (or questioned) long enough.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:10 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
No. I don't need to give you ammo to paint me into generalizations with. If you need me to clarify something I will. I'll let my opinions and perspectives speak for themselves.
I wasn't looking for ammo, I was trying to understand. I will tell you what I believe and can you tell me if I am wrong?

I think that you probably aren't in management or sales. I think that you are probably fairly young (early 20's) and I don't think you ever participated in competitive sports (maybe soccer). I think this because you don't seem to have a winnning attitude. You seem to have the opinion that war has to be fair and war is an extension of democracy in process.

The truth is, war is a fight where the end result could easily result in death. The truth is, there are two sides, and you cannot be in the middle because that is where the bullets are flying. It is war and there is nothing fair about it. You play to win or risk death. Capturing suspiciously innocent people on the battlefield, where the bullets are flying justifies 'enemy combatant status'. What do you do when you hear guns and weapons if you are not part of the fight. Most sensible people get the hell away. Do you agree?

So, if you think of it that way, these people are suspiciously innocent for a reason and lost their freedom because of their actions or because of pure stupidity.
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:30 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
II think this because you don't seem to have a winnning attitude. You seem to have the opinion that war has to be fair and war is an extension of democracy in process.
No, my issue is that I don't see this as a traditional war. You got people setting up kill us? Good, get 'em. You know who is trying ot get us? Good, get 'em. You've got someone suspicious? Question them, monitor them, warn them, but don't hold them indefinitely, as prisoners of circumstance.

Originally posted by dcolton:
The truth is, war is a fight where the end result could easily result in death. The truth is, there are two sides, and you cannot be in the middle because that is where the bullets are flying. It is war and there is nothing fair about it. You play to win or risk death. Capturing suspiciously innocent people on the battlefield, where the bullets are flying justifies 'enemy combatant status'. What do you do when you hear guns and weapons if you are not part of the fight. Most sensible people get the hell away. Do you agree?
I'd agree that most people in our region in the world would do as you say, But from what I understand, life is different over there, and they have a different way of looking at things, let alone reacting (Which is part of the problem).
     
BoomStick
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:30 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:

If we called them POW's, would your attitude change?
If they had been called enemy casualties, innocents would not be dead now.
     
PacHead
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:34 PM
 
All Gitmo detainees need to be tried, and just get the thing over with already, so we can just gas them, and improve the human genepool ratio with a small fraction of a percent.

Quite a few of the Gitmo people who have been let free have gone right back to their wacko jihad, terrorist life. A huge mistake to release any of those animals in Gitmo.
     
Logic
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:41 PM
 
One of the biggest differences between the US and the civilised world is that we give everyone the rights our own citizens have if they commit any crimes here.

The US goes to great lengths to prevent that.

Oh the Beacon of Freedom and Democracy�!

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
Powaqqatsi
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:44 PM
 
Originally posted by moki:
and these people should be put into our court system?
yes, just like everybody else.

It's really sad how much of you are brainwashed by this terorrism crap. You could as wel lock up the other 6 billion people on the planet or nuke the hell out of us.

I really wish that the Bush administration would clean out the mess you have in the USA instead of messing with the rest of the world.

The only thing you create is a fake sense of security and half a brainwashed country.

I would not care for all of this if the US didn't involve itself with the rest of the world (postive, constructive involvement is an other matter).

Flame away !
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
One of the biggest differences between the US and the civilised world is that we give everyone the rights our own citizens have if they commit any crimes here.

The US goes to great lengths to prevent that.

Oh the Beacon of Freedom and Democracy�!
Yea, that's it. The same rights afforded to the likes of Nick Berg and the rest of the poor beheaded souls.

(Does that make me anti-islam by making that statement?
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
No, my issue is that I don't see this as a traditional war. You got people setting up kill us? Good, get 'em. You know who is trying ot get us? Good, get 'em. You've got someone suspicious? Question them, monitor them, warn them, but don't hold them indefinitely, as prisoners of circumstance.

I'd agree that most people in our region in the world would do as you say, But from what I understand, life is different over there, and they have a different way of looking at things, let alone reacting (Which is part of the problem).
But it is a war nonetheless...

How was my evaluation of you?
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:46 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
But it is a war nonetheless...
Only because we don't have any other name for this type of situation.

Originally posted by dcolton:
How was my evaluation of you?
Irrelevant.
     
Powaqqatsi
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:47 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Yea, that's it. The same rights afforded to the likes of Nick Berg and the rest of the poor beheaded souls.

(Does that make me anti-islam by making that statement?
The US of A claimes to be the uber democratic country and country of freedom and rights. That's where the USA stands for, no ?

The people who do these kidnappings never claimed that. That's the difference.
     
PacHead
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
Only because we don't have any other name for this type of situation.

Irrelevant.
This type of situation is called war, we already have a name for it, and we don't need no liberals renaming our war. The people who also think it is a war voted for Bush. I'll assume that many of those people who don't believe it's a war voted for the other dude, and you guys lost. Therefore, it is a war.
     
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:51 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
All Gitmo detainees need to be tried, and just get the thing over with already, so we can just gas them, and improve the human genepool ratio with a small fraction of a percent.

Quite a few of the Gitmo people who have been let free have gone right back to their wacko jihad, terrorist life. A huge mistake to release any of those animals in Gitmo.
Hail victory, my leader!
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
The US of A claimes to be the uber democratic country and country of freedom and rights. That's where the USA stands for, no ?

The people who do these kidnappings never claimed that. That's the difference.
I see. So if we decided to take back claim, then it will be alright to do as we please?
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
Only because we don't have any other name for this type of situation.

Irrelevant.
Men with big guns trying to kill one another. What is that called again? WAR!

And by your response, I believe I hit the nail on the head.
     
Powaqqatsi
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:02 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
I see. So if we decided to take back claim, then it will be alright to do as we please?
No, but it would sure take away the hypocrisy.

Originally posted by dcolton:
Men with big guns trying to kill one another. What is that called again? WAR!

And by your response, I believe I hit the nail on the head.
Do you know the name of your opponent ? No. So it's not a war. A war is "A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties." You don't even know who or what you are fighting.
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:11 PM
 
Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:

Do you know the name of your opponent ? No. So it's not a war. A war is "A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties." You don't even know who or what you are fighting.
Yes, terrorists. Killer muslims. Skewed muslims. Freedom fighters. Al Quaeda. Jihad this and that. PLO. Al Sadr. The Taliban, Bin Laden...

We are fighting evil. Men who target civilians, like you, me and our families. It is not our fault they hide behind a 'see no evil' religion, mosques, women, and children.
     
Dakar
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:12 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Men with big guns trying to kill one another. What is that called again? WAR!
Sure, if you want to simplify it that far down. My point is that it isn't a clearly defined foe. It isn't men in a field with rocket launchers and AKs (not, at least until we find them ourselves). This is planes and rigged trucks into buildings.

Originally posted by dcolton:
And by your response, I believe I hit the nail on the head.
I knew that was coming. So if I try to avoid you generalizing me, you'll just assume.
If I deny, it must be true.
If I say nothing, it must be true.

You set up a circumstance where you'd get the result you wanted. I'm sure you'll offer me a chance to rectify the situation by telling you what I really am. But that'd just violate what I've been trying to avoid here. I don't want to be put in a little box where all my responses are assumed, by views categorized by my background.

Let my explanations stand for themselves. Is that too much to ask?
     
dcolton
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
Sure, if you want to simplify it that far down. My point is that it isn't a clearly defined foe. It isn't men in a field with rocket launchers and AKs (not, at least until we find them ourselves). This is planes and rigged trucks into buildings.

I knew that was coming. So if I try to avoid you generalizing me, you'll just assume.
If I deny, it must be true.
If I say nothing, it must be true.

You set up a circumstance where you'd get the result you wanted. I'm sure you'll offer me a chance to rectify the situation by telling you what I really am. But that'd just violate what I've been trying to avoid here. I don't want to be put in a little box where all my responses are assumed, by views categorized by my background.

Let my explanations stand for themselves. Is that too much to ask?
Actually, if you would have answered the question I wold have never turned on dick mode. I really was curious to understand you POV
     
PacHead
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:

Do you know the name of your opponent ?
Sure we do. They use names like this:

Khalid Almihdhar - -Alias: Sannan Al-Makki; Khalid Bin Muhammad; 'Addallah Al-Mihdhar; Khalid Mohammad Al-Saqaf
Majed Moqed --Alias: Majed M.GH Moqed; Majed Moqed, Majed Mashaan Moqed
Nawaf Alhazmi
-Alias: Nawaf Al-Hazmi; Nawaf Al Hazmi; Nawaf M.S. Al Hazmi
Salem Alhazmi
Hani Hanjour -
Satam M.A. Al Suqami
Waleed M. Alshehri
Wail M. Alshehri
Mohamed Atta
-Alias: Mehan Atta; Mohammad El Amir; Muhammad Atta; Mohamed El Sayed; Mohamed Elsayed; Muhammad Muhammad Al Amir Awag Al Sayyid Atta; Muhammad Muhammad Al-Amir Awad Al Sayad
Abdulaziz Alomari - Possible Saudi national
Marwan Al-Shehhi
-Alias: Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Al-Shehi; Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Lakrab Al-Shihhi; Abu Abdullah
Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad
-Alias: Fayez Ahmad; Banihammad Fayez Abu Dhabi Banihammad; Fayez Rashid Ahmed; Banihammad Fayez; Rasid Ahmed Hassen Alqadi; Abu Dhabi Banihammad
Ahmed Fayez; Faez Ahmed
Ahmed Alghamdi
-Alias: Ahmed Salah Alghamdi
Hamza Alghamdi
-Alias: Hamza Al-Ghamdi; Hamza Ghamdi; Hamzah Alghamdi;
Hamza Alghamdi Saleh
Mohand Alshehri
-Alias: Mohammed Alshehhi; Mohamd Alshehri; Mohald Alshehri
Saeed Alghamdi
-Alias: Abdul Rahman Saed Alghamdi; Ali S Alghamdi; Al- Gamdi; Saad M.S. Al Ghamdi; Sadda Al Ghamdi; Saheed Al-Ghamdi; Seed Al Ghamdi
Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi
-Alias: Ahmed Alhaznawi
Ahmed Alnami
-Alias: Ali Ahmed Alnami; Ahmed A. Al-Nami; Ahmed Al- Nawi
Ziad Samir Jarrah



     
Dakar
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Pretentiously Retired.
Status: Offline
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:21 PM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Actually, if you would have answered the question I wold have never turned on dick mode.
You should be a better person than to turn it on at all, let alone on me with the respect I think I give you.

Originally posted by dcolton:
I really was curious to understand you POV
I think I'm doing a fine job of laying it out. You may not agree with it (you still see it as a traditional war, I do not, you just see it as men with guns, I see it as people with schemes) but it's there in Black & White.
     
eklipse
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Status: Offline
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:23 PM
 
So.....not only did they wrongly imprison innocents without trial at Guantanamo Bay - they let the guilty ones out?

How the **** does that work?
     
dcolton
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2003
Status: Offline
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Dakar:
You should be a better person than to turn it on at all, let alone on me with the respect I think I give you.

I think I'm doing a fine job of laying it out. You may not agree with it (you still see it as a traditional war, I do not, you just see it as men with guns, I see it as people with schemes) but it's there in Black & White.
Fair enough on all accounts.
     
PacHead
Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
Status: Offline
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
So.....not only did they wrongly imprison innocents without trial at Guantanamo Bay - they let the guilty ones out?

How the **** does that work?
Hint: The whole innocent business is a myth.
     
dcolton
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2003
Status: Offline
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:57 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
Hint: The whole innocent business is a myth.
AKA, Suspiciously Innocent.
     
   
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