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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > PowerBook vs. MacBook Pro vs. T60 (Pics)

PowerBook vs. MacBook Pro vs. T60 (Pics) (Page 2)
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jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 23, 2006, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by jhonizzle
thats me a 175lb guy standing on his MBP....and i'm typing this on it

now back to performance of the t60...it hasn't got half to the MBP's power
Nice, you're one out of four. But I don't know where you're getting that the T60's are half the MBPs performance. What are you basing that on?

And please don't go ****ing your laptop up trying to prove anything to me. I have a Powerbook and (for the time being) MBP and if I cared enough about testing their durability, I'd do it myself. I don't want to see anyone damaging their hardware, especially a Mac.
     
jhonizzle
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Apr 23, 2006, 01:51 PM
 
based off of the t60's page http://www-131.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/st...&dualCurrId=73 compairing that to the MBP is a no contest, where is the t60 with an optional 2.16Ghz core? and all the other hardware specs of the MBP. and where is the t60 running OS X nativly.

edit: saying half was a bit of an exaggeration, but as far as performance the MBP out performs the t60, other than being much warmer than the t60 because of the aluminum which we could argue over all day, i see the MBP as being a superior machine. could i do without the heat probably but it doesn't bother me.
( Last edited by jhonizzle; Apr 23, 2006 at 01:58 PM. )
     
Star-Fire
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Apr 23, 2006, 01:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by jhonizzle


thats me a 175lb guy standing on his MBP....and i'm typing this on it

now back to performance of the t60...it hasn't got half to the MBP's power

Nice

Besides deciding factor for me would be:

IBM = Standard Resolution
MBP = Widescreen

After my TiBook, I could never go back.
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jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 23, 2006, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by jhonizzle
based off of the t60's page http://www-131.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/st...&dualCurrId=73 compairing that to the MBP is a no contest, where is the t60 with an optional 2.16Ghz core? and all the other hardware specs of the MBP. and where is the t60 running OS X nativly
Ok but which T60 are you looking at? There's lots of different models, not all of which are Core Duos. Mine happens to be a 1.8ghz Core Duo, the same as my MacBook. How much difference do you think there is in the performance? I don't want to get into cost comparisons because that's an issue that's been beaten to death enough, but be sure to compare a T60 in the same price range, because mine was $525 less than the MBP, and $1025 less than the higher end MBP.

While the MBP definitely wins on the video card side (helping it keep the upper hand in gaming, which Macs are known for ) and DVI output, I think the rest of the features pretty comparable, which the MBP winning on some and the T60 winning others. Do I need to point them out or do you want to pick thru them yourself?

Quit editing your posts damnit! I'm trying to reply
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 23, 2006, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Star-Fire
IBM = Standard Resolution
MBP = Widescreen
I like widescreen too sometimes, but 1400x1050 is higher overall resolution than 1440x900.

I far prefer widescreens on desktops, but on laptops it's a toss up for me... They do look nice, but they also make the laptop wider, which takes up more space. In the case of the MBP, I just felt like it was too wide, almost like I was carrying around a 17" Powerbook, and I need something smaller than that. Looking forward to seeing how a 13.3" MBP looks.
     
MARINEOSX
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Apr 23, 2006, 02:35 PM
 
Well as for the heat thing I will tell you what it comes down to. I know that aluminum especially the alloy type disipates heat or removes it faster and more efficiantly than anyother metal known to man. If you don't beleive me look at what a heatsink is made from the majority of the time ot to mention every high end car audio amplifer out there. It is a fact that electricty runns faster through a colder circuit. The fast electricity moves on a computers circuit board will provide better performance and less work overall for the internal parts of the apple laptops. The reason that it gets warm is exactly that. It will remove the heat faster and more effectivly. If it didnt get hot it would not be working. Someone said that if they put them in an oven they would both reach 200, yes they would but the aluminum would get hotter faster and cool much faster not to mention it would not melt. But that is neither here nore there. Also concidering that he stood on the MBP I wonder what would happen to a PC Laptop of the same dimensions?
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Apr 23, 2006, 02:37 PM
 
blimey!
     
jhonizzle
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Apr 23, 2006, 02:39 PM
 
as the other person said, MBP=16:9, T60=4:3, MBP has 1GB Ram at the 2Ghz model T60 has 512MB of Ram at the 2Ghz model. if the t60 had a x1600 in it i would want to see how well it handles the heat. because i think that would be the largest difference. Now a graphics card is obviously not what you want to argue, but i think that is what we should argue because that can be one of the largest bottle necks in a system. Hard Drive speed can be another issue but neither have that issue, the two largest compairisons would be Ram and GPU, which the MBP has the upper hand with. so call my exaggeration by saying half. but the graphics and the ram do make it an advantage over the t60. along with the screen, built in iSight camera. (which if it's somehting your going to use for communication is great)
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 23, 2006, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
The T60 is hands down much more sturdy than the MBP. It's got a solid, hard and thick shell made from a material that doesn't scratch, bend or warp. The Al case is thinner, softer and more flexible. The T60 is made to be able to withstand abuse, the MBP isn't. If you wanna debate that, you're delusional.

If you wanna convince him why the T60 nevertheless sucks, you'd rather point out that it's a) big, b) fat,
The T60 is 122 cubic inches, the MBP is 135.36 cubic inches. That means the MBP is bigger and fatter. The T60 is only .4 inches deeper, and 0.0 to 0.2 inches thicker than a MacBook, yet the MacBook is 1.9 inches wider than the T60, making the MacBook 10.9% larger than the T60.
c) fugly
Maybe, but subjective so no agrument there.
d) pretty thin on the feature side (slow HDD/no option to upgrade, no widescreen option, VGA out only, 128MB VRAM max, limited max ext. resolution, no optical digital audio) and finally most and for all: It doesn't run Mac OS X. But don't try to debate durability unless you wanna lose.
No arguement there either... If that stuff matters the most, you're not going to want a Thinkpad.
     
Ryan1524
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Apr 23, 2006, 03:11 PM
 
whoa, that's some risk you took there.
Ryan
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 23, 2006, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by jhonizzle
MBP has 1GB Ram at the 2Ghz model T60 has 512MB of Ram at the 2Ghz model. if the t60 had a x1600.....
Compare the $2499 MacBook to a $2499 Thinkpad (model 200783U), just to be fair. That Thinkpad has a 256mb FireGL, 1gb ram, smaller but higher resolution display, and a 2.16ghz Core Duo (upgrading the MacBook to 2.16ghz adds $300 to the cost).

Of course, we're just talking hardware here... I got nothing for the OS X trump card.
     
Star-Fire
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Apr 23, 2006, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

No arguement there either... If that stuff matters the most, you're not going to want a Thinkpad.

Exactly, that's what it boils down to, I love my MBP becasue it runs OS X, I love the style, and I like Apple. I had a Centrino Gateway before the MBP and it was a nice computer, but I missed OS X, I was so tired to windows, for a desktop maybe it's different (I have an AMD64), but for a laptop I want something that works, with few drivers to install, and very little configuration. I use my laptop more then my desktop anyhow. I do have to give some props to the gateway, it was one of the coolest running laptops I've ever seen, I could PS on it all day long and the bottom was still room temp, I don't know there cooling system but it was damn good and quiet. BTW it was a widescreen also
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pete
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Apr 23, 2006, 04:23 PM
 
Also, when comparing price and features, don't forget that the Thinkpad comes with three years warranty from IBM. When I had a thinkpad, I wrote an email to IBM customer support at 10.30pm and they actually called me within 30 minutes to help me with my request to get new backup CDs. And it wasn't a call from India either. Very impressed. I've had a lot of great experience with Applecare too, but think that Apple should have 3 year warranty standard given the cost of their systems.
     
mduell
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Apr 23, 2006, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by pete
Also, when comparing price and features, don't forget that the Thinkpad comes with three years warranty from IBM. When I had a thinkpad, I wrote an email to IBM customer support at 10.30pm and they actually called me within 30 minutes to help me with my request to get new backup CDs. And it wasn't a call from India either. Very impressed. I've had a lot of great experience with Applecare too, but think that Apple should have 3 year warranty standard given the cost of their systems.
IBM sold the ThinkPad line and name to Lenovo last year.
     
freakboy2
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Apr 23, 2006, 11:36 PM
 
personally, i wish that apple made a pro laptop out of the ibook material. maybe even the original ibook material. those machines were pretty majorly sturdy. I'd give up .5 pounds for some more strength in different places (although i know a lot of people wouldn't).

as for speed of the lenovos, etc. i'm not sure.

as for price comparisons, with the student discount, the mbp i got my wife was pretty close to what we'd spend on a decent 15inch pc, and it's arguably still got way better hardware (DVI out) and the software it comes with is no comparison and worth at least 100 bucks.

as for not having to worry about her machine catching viruses, trojans or other bullshit. That, my friends, that is priceless. and to put a money figure on it, is probably worth about 10-40 hours of my time per year * 40$ per hour.. about 400-1600 bucks. per year. i don't know what your guy's experiences are with setting up PCs with software (office, adobe CS, etc) but the last time I did it on a laptop, between that and all the software updates, setting up networks, it took all day. I set up my wife's mbp laptop in 1.5 hours. Everything installed and ready to go.

as teh Steve says: bam!
     
Simon
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Apr 24, 2006, 02:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
No arguement there either... If that stuff matters the most, you're not going to want a Thinkpad.
No, that's exactly the point. People use Macs precisely because of OS X and hardware details like the ones mentioned. For these people those are the arguments. That's why nobody here has been convinced by your T60 propaganda. The T60 is certainly no bad notebook, but you're preaching to an audience with other priorities - the priorities that Apple also seems to have (at least to a large extent) and Lenovo doesn't. You should try to argue this on a Windows board or something. I believe the effort is wasted here.
•
     
jennykatz
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Apr 24, 2006, 08:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by jhonizzle
as the other person said, MBP=16:9, T60=4:3, MBP has 1GB Ram at the 2Ghz model T60 has 512MB of Ram at the 2Ghz model. if the t60 had a x1600 in it i would want to see how well it handles the heat.
Apple uses in MBPs a special underclocked version of x1600.
It was already verified that the x1600 in MBP has essentially the same perfomance
as x1400 in T60 (both under Windows. The performance of MacOS X Drivers
is lower.).
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 24, 2006, 09:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
No, that's exactly the point. People use Macs precisely because of OS X and hardware details like the ones mentioned.
Apple could install OS X on a tuna fish sandwhich and Lenovo couldn't do much about it if the OS was the deciding buying factor. Thats why I wanted to compare hardware rather than software and price. Apple makes x86 PCs now, just like the PCs that Dell, IBM, and others have been making forever, and as such should be subject to comparison to them... even more so now than before. Lenovo can deliver a 1.8ghz Core Duo that is comfortably cool to use in my lap, and Apple can't, but they're using the same hardware.
That's why nobody here has been convinced by your T60 propaganda. The T60 is certainly no bad notebook, but you're preaching to an audience with other priorities
I think you might have misinterpreted my intentions. I posted some pics comparing the sizes of the three different laptops, commented on what I didn't like about the MacBook screen, and responded with my opinion to the various responses that popped up.

I certainly don't have any anti-Mac agenda, considering that I have, use, and prefer Macs myself. I gave the MacBook an honest shot, and after it arrived, was disappointed to find that I would probably be better served with the Thinkpad, and gave the reasons why. Just talking about it, with no intentions of trying to convince anyone not to use or buy Macs.
     
pete
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Apr 24, 2006, 10:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
IBM sold the ThinkPad line and name to Lenovo last year.

I know. I guess I called Lenovo then since this was in August last year. In any case it was a great CS experience.
     
pete
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Apr 24, 2006, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
No, that's exactly the point. People use Macs precisely because of OS X and hardware details like the ones mentioned. For these people those are the arguments. That's why nobody here has been convinced by your T60 propaganda. The T60 is certainly no bad notebook, but you're preaching to an audience with other priorities - the priorities that Apple also seems to have (at least to a large extent) and Lenovo doesn't. You should try to argue this on a Windows board or something. I believe the effort is wasted here.

I don't think that's the point. We all love OSX, but we're talking hardware here. Apple delivers in some areas and not in others. Unless we discuss and complain about problematic aspects of their hardware, they will continue to not address issues like heat. I'm quite surprised actually that in the past ten years Apple has still not really managed to control the heat issue. We now see that the Thinkpad T60, with roughly the same hardware and a smaller overall size, is able to run relatively cool and the question is why Apple can't accomplish that as well. Just because somebody observes that the Thinkpad runs cooler with the same hardware doesn't mean that it is 'propaganda', nor does it mean that the person does not like Apple or Apple's products. It might even mean that they genuinely care and would like to see improvements. I certainly would!
     
Simon
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Apr 24, 2006, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by pete
We now see that the Thinkpad T60, with roughly the same hardware and a smaller overall size, is able to run relatively cool and the question is why Apple can't accomplish that as well.
But that question has already been answered. Its case is warmer because its fans run less and because Al conducts that heat well from the inside to your skin. If the MBP had a bigger or larger fan running all the time chances are it would be quite similar in temperature to the T60. If Apple preferred cool over quiet they could have tried that. But they don't and that's why the MBP is warmer.

I'm sure we'd all like cooler, but we certainly don't all want to sacrifice silence.
•
     
pete
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Apr 24, 2006, 10:56 AM
 
I've never tried a T60 but the T40 I used to have had a fan that was almost inaudible. It was not like my girlfriend's father's Dell which seems to a loud fan that is perpetually on and sounds like a jet engine. Because I spend a lot of time in very quiet environments I'm very sensitive to sound and the T40 was quiet and cool running despite the fans being on a lot of the time. I'm curious how much noise the T60's fans make in comparison. But, I guess you;re right: the reason it runs cooler is that the fans remove the heat and the case doesn't conduct heat like the macbook aluminum does.

I'd prefer a very low level fan hum and a cool computer to a silent but hot computer, but that's just a personal preference. Apple made the choice to have more heat and no sound and I would have preferred a compromise between heat and noise.
     
pete
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Apr 24, 2006, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Star-Fire
Nice

Besides deciding factor for me would be:

IBM = Standard Resolution
MBP = Widescreen

After my TiBook, I could never go back.



I would never every consider standing on my powerbook/macbook pro. I doubt it could handle it without bending and ruining the LCD. Maybe he's hanging from a bar and there's no weight on the powerbook? There's something wrong here...
     
dndog
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Apr 24, 2006, 08:00 PM
 
Whats the whole thing with people standing on their thinkpads? Was this some sort of quality build guarantee by IBM or something?
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Velocity211
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Apr 24, 2006, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by dndog
Whats the whole thing with people standing on their thinkpads? Was this some sort of quality build guarantee by IBM or something?
Probably, couldn't you stand on almost every notebook on the market. I mean, I can stand on my five year old Sony vaio r505 and nothing would happen. Unless you start jumping on the thinkpad, that would mean something.
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Ryan1524
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Apr 25, 2006, 06:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by pete
I would never every consider standing on my powerbook/macbook pro. I doubt it could handle it without bending and ruining the LCD. Maybe he's hanging from a bar and there's no weight on the powerbook? There's something wrong here...

i doubt it, look at the depression on the carpet. you can't make that kinda of depression wihtout putting some pressure on the book. even if it's not full weight, it's still pinned between the floor and him witho enough force to sink it about 5-6mm (looks like).
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Apr 25, 2006, 08:02 AM
 
I live in a mixed environment and have for years and there really isn't any comparison between the two in terms of durability. The titanium frames in the Thinkpads, along with the plate they use to distribute force away from the display, and many, many other durability features just put it in a class of it's own.

I love my Macs, but if I were to take a trip to various "off the beaten path" places in the world and had to take one notebook to document my journeys, it would easily be the Thinkpad. It's a far more rugged design.

Also, I have my doubts about the "standing on Mac" picture. I've stood on a Thinkpad R51 myself and have seen, in person, others stand on various Thinkpad models. Until I either see it in person, or see a more conclusive picture of someone standing on their MacBookPro, I'm not buying it.
     
pete
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Apr 25, 2006, 08:07 AM
 
Maybe he really did stand on it but we don't know what happened to the macbook as a result...
     
freakboy2
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Apr 26, 2006, 11:43 PM
 
i think the only good test is driving over the thinkpad with a car. or dropping it out of a moving vehicle.

that would rule. Someone do it! DO IT!
     
Simon
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Apr 27, 2006, 02:47 AM
 
Some crazy Japanese guys did that with an iPod some time ago. To my surprise it survived some serious abuse.
•
     
amazing
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Apr 30, 2006, 07:42 PM
 
Really enjoyed reading this thread: we don't often get to play the "what if" scenario, because we only get to play "what if" by choosing between a Powerbook or an iBook. (And calling that a "choice" is a misnomer because they're not in the same niche.)

Frankly, if I could get a Thinkpad legally running OS X, with all features and hardware supported, that's what I'd choose.
     
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Apr 30, 2006, 08:21 PM
 
Personally, I would like to see what the temps are on the CPUs of these laptops. Maybe someone could run a benchmark with the CPU at 100% for a while, and see which one's CPU is actually running cooler. If they ran at the same temp, I would prefer the passive cooling of the MBP. I mean, what happens when a fan dies in a Thinkpad?
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 30, 2006, 09:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tuoder
Personally, I would like to see what the temps are on the CPUs of these laptops. Maybe someone could run a benchmark with the CPU at 100% for a while, and see which one's CPU is actually running cooler.
I haven't yet found a program that can read the temps on the Thinkpad, but I haven't really searched that hard either. If I come across one, I'll let it run 3dmark for an hour to get the CPU and GPU heated up and then post the temps.
I mean, what happens when a fan dies in a Thinkpad?
It throttles down and/or shuts off, same as the MacBook would most likely. The MBP isn't passively cooled, by the way. It has two fans.
Originally Posted by amazing
Frankly, if I could get a Thinkpad legally running OS X, with all features and hardware supported, that's what I'd choose.
Me too.
     
pete
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Apr 30, 2006, 09:16 PM
 
me too. If I could have OS X on a thinkpad, i'd be very happy.
     
mduell
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Apr 30, 2006, 09:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
I haven't yet found a program that can read the temps on the Thinkpad, but I haven't really searched that hard either. If I come across one, I'll let it run 3dmark for an hour to get the CPU and GPU heated up and then post the temps.
Notebook Hardware Control can give you CPU/system/disk temps.
     
Tuoder
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Apr 30, 2006, 09:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
I haven't yet found a program that can read the temps on the Thinkpad, but I haven't really searched that hard either. If I come across one, I'll let it run 3dmark for an hour to get the CPU and GPU heated up and then post the temps.

It throttles down and/or shuts off, same as the MacBook would most likely.
No, when it is dead. I mean if a fan were to break.

The MBP isn't passively cooled, by the way. It has two fans.
I see. I would still bet that it has better cooling with fans off.
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 30, 2006, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tuoder
No, when it is dead. I mean if a fan were to break.
That is what it would do if the fan were to die. It would throttle down or shut off. You can take the heatsink off a P4 while it's running and it will just slow way down. I'm sure the Core Duo is the same way.
     
mduell
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Apr 30, 2006, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tuoder
I mean, what happens when a fan dies in a Thinkpad?
The CPU automatically clocks down to prevent thermal damage. Chapter 5.1 of this PDF discusses the thermal monitoring and protection.
     
jasonsRX7  (op)
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Apr 30, 2006, 10:58 PM
 
Check this out... I'm still reading it

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...readid=1864582
     
hldan
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May 1, 2006, 01:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Star-Fire
Nice

Besides deciding factor for me would be:

IBM = Standard Resolution
MBP = Widescreen

After my TiBook, I could never go back.

It's obvious you have plenty of disposable income to have balls to stand on that delicate machine. I would never in a million years take that chance on anything that expensive. Damn!
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Star-Fire
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May 1, 2006, 08:15 AM
 
I don't know why you are quoting me, I didn't stand on mp MBP. That was jhonizzle.
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jasonsRX7  (op)
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May 4, 2006, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Notebook Hardware Control can give you CPU/system/disk temps.
Thanks... Just ran it on the T60. It showed 41C at idle, and 71C under full load for 20 minutes (running two instances of CPU Burn-In), compared to some reports of MBPs running 60C at idle and over 80C at full load. So what was that about plastic making laptops hotter internally?
     
pete
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May 4, 2006, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7
Thanks... Just ran it on the T60. It showed 41C at idle, and 71C under full load for 20 minutes (running two instances of CPU Burn-In), compared to some reports of MBPs running 60C at idle and over 80C at full load. So what was that about plastic making laptops hotter internally?

Thanks for posting that. Apple obviously made several mistakes with the cooling mechanisms in the macbook and this just demonstrates that, given good design, a laptop can have a very powerful CPU and still remain cool on the outside. That is, it can be a real LAPtop, rather than a notebook.


I'm so surprised they didn't do better with all their experience.
     
alex_kac
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May 6, 2006, 05:51 PM
 
I just tried the Thinkpad out and I must say was very overwhelmed by the trackpoint and case. I do think the keyboard on the MBP is about on par with the Thinkpad, but in my use the MBP wins.
     
glhart
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May 6, 2006, 10:22 PM
 
I have a Powerbook 1.67, 15" HD. I took it in to see it next to a MacBook Pro, and it definitely looked a little dimmer -- though I was looking at both screens straight on. The original screen on the PB (HD version) had real problems. I sent it in and, to my relief, it was replaced with a totally different, much superior screen. After reading everyone's comments on the MacBooks, I think I'll keep my Powerbook for a year or two. Then I can get a machine that is at least 4 times more powerful and I won't have to take a chance that it whines (I hope). I had a friend who said he always waited until he could increase the speed of his machine by 4 times before trading up.
     
thiagofll
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May 7, 2006, 10:28 PM
 
Standing on your laptop?!?! MMM..I feel bad for the person who is gonna buy those laptops off of eBay one day..I just can't imagine spending almost 3K on a laptop and then stand on it..
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]My Gadgets: 24" iMac Core 2 Duo, 4GB DDR2 RAM, Wireless Mighty Mouse // MacBook Pro 17" 2.44Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 160GB HD, 4GB RAM / 8GB Apple iPhone/ JBL Spot/ Canon SD850 w/ 4GB Card/ Canon XTi Rebel Black.[/FONT]
     
masugu
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May 8, 2006, 11:23 AM
 
Ouch!!!
     
Recontech
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May 11, 2006, 06:46 PM
 
I use a step ladder if I want to gain some height. Why on earth would any clown want to stand on their laptop? I don't get it. In no way would the durability of the machine by me standing on it affect my purchasing decision. If so, I'd buy a Panasonic Toughbook. Sigh...
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jasonsRX7  (op)
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May 11, 2006, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Recontech
In no way would the durability of the machine by me standing on it affect my purchasing decision.
Obviously, if you have a Powerbook, durability wasn't a purchasing factor.

Certainly if you put all your imaginative powers to the task, you could conjure a situation where being able to support excessive amounts of weight would be beneficial.

(I'll help: accidentally sitting on, or setting something on top of, your laptop)
     
 
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