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CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 06:20 PM

Do you believe that there is an absolute right or wrong? Ex: Murdering people, stealing, abusing, etc. I believe there is. All murders are bad, for example. With the choice, what would you do: Rob or give?

olePigeon · Aug 7, 2004, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Do you believe that there is an absolute right or wrong? Ex: Murdering people, stealing, abusing, etc. I believe there is. All murders are bad, for example. With the choice, what would you do: Rob or give?

Murdering people is bad, but people always find a way of justifying it. Usually through religion.

CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 06:36 PM

Just ask OBL.

MacGorilla · Aug 7, 2004, 06:40 PM

In the universe, balance is what keeps galaxies in order, stars burning and gorikcey in before everyone else.

CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 06:41 PM

Was that a yes or no? That's what the thread is about.

drive-thru · Aug 7, 2004, 06:45 PM

I believe there is absolute right and wrong. That doesn't always make it easy to distinguish between the two, and it doesn't mean that other people see things the exact same way.
Circumstance has a way of shifting the boundary.

demograph68 · Aug 7, 2004, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Rob or give?

What if you steal from the rich and give to the poor? Sinner or saint? I believe in good conscience, not "morality". I make mistakes too, but I won't guilt myself into a corner. I accept it (my mistakes), learn from it, and hopefully move on.

Axo1ot1 · Aug 7, 2004, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
No, there is no God or absolutes.

zing!

Tulkas · Aug 7, 2004, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Murdering people is bad, but people always find a way of justifying it. Usually through religion.

Mmmmm, baseless accusations. Nice try at turning this into a religious flame war though

Zimphire · 07:13 PM

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
This has been mentioned before, but some people don't seem to get the message: take your religious debate elsewhere. THIS IS A ****ING MAC FORUM. People are getting sick of it. I'm getting sick of. Let it go or leave.

CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 07:07 PM

Stealing from the rich for the poor is still�uh�stealing. This will turn into a flame war. I can smell it. And if it does, I can't be held responsible.

And Axo, that statement leads me to believe that God is fake and that there is no morality�a statement which, if it were to be taken to the extreme-justifies murder. There is a transcendent morality which we all should abide by.

Oh, and I guess I'm sorry for bringing up a deep issue. Religion can be as inflammatory as politics, so go close down the other lounge.

Tulkas · Aug 7, 2004, 07:10 PM

As for right and wrong, yes and no. We each have a moral code that we as individuals live by. Its shaped as we grow up and continue to change well into our old age. Its passed on, at least in part, to their children and so on. We, each in our own way, figure out why its wrong to kill people but its right to kill someone to save someone else, etc. This is heavily influenced by religion, government, our parents, all the various things that act as "authority figures". Not that these values don't differ wildly and many people abandon them but for the most part we agree on a certain set of moral values, more or less.

Is there a God? I don't know. There are many myths of various god's and powers, some credible and some not, some ancient and others rather recent. I refuse to discount such myths as I think they play a major part of our society and history, and I think its important we hold onto any pointers at all to our past. If there is one God.. well I just don't know him so I won't try to criticize others who obviously have a lot more faith than I do.

demograph68 · Aug 7, 2004, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Tulkas:
Mmmmm, baseless accusations.

Religion USED TO justify it. Today it's more of a problem with Islam. (Like Jihad as it is interpreted by the more radical Muslims)
Christianity had its time centuries ago though, as with the crusades. European explorers used it to justify genocide on foreign lands. (Such as Aztec civilization) Slavery too was seen justified. But most of these problems have been corrected ("updated") to fit with our current standards.

Tulkas · Aug 7, 2004, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by demograph68:
Religion USED TO justify it. Today it's more of a problem with Islam. (Like Jihad as it is interpreted by the more radical Muslims)
Christianity had its time centuries ago though, as with the crusades. European explorers used it to justify genocide on foreign lands. (Such as Aztec civilization) Slavery too was seen justified. But most of these problems have been corrected ("updated") to fit with our current standards.

Religion gave us those values, it gave us moral. Yes, they were corrupted by the thirst for power, but tell me what hasn't?

CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Tulkas:
Religion gave us those values, it gave us moral. Yes, they were corrupted by the thirst for power, but tell me what hasn't?

Couldn't have said it better myself. While there are *some* atheist who are patriotic moral people, most believe "Hey, there's no **** God! Let's go get some pot and watch porn!" They become self-centered people who believe the only person they have to satisfy is themselves, with no disregard to the consequences of their immoral actions.

demograph68 · Aug 7, 2004, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Tulkas:
Religion gave us those values, it gave us moral. Yes, they were corrupted by the thirst for power, but tell me what hasn't?

Religion didn't "invent" morals. They are merely extensions to such values. But because humans are corrupt, anything that reflects human thought then has to be corrupt. Morality isn't based on a higher power, but rather a given society. Religion changed that idea though by "enforcing" its beliefs onto other cultures by massive conversion. Now "morality" is based on one massive collective, with less deviations to break it apart. (To be modest, I'll state that this is not fact, obviously, just my opinion)

demograph68 · Aug 7, 2004, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
They become self-centered people who believe the only person they have to satisfy is themselves, with no disregard to the consequences of their immoral actions.

There is nothing wrong with self-indulgence, as long as it doesn't harm others.

CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by demograph68:
Religion didn't "invent" morals. They are merely extensions to such values. But because humans are corrupt, anything that reflects human thought then has to be corrupt. Morality isn't based on a higher power, but rather a given society. Religion changed that idea though by "enforcing" its beliefs onto other cultures by massive conversion. Now "morality" is based on one massive collective, with less deviations to break it apart. (To be modest, I'll state that this is not fact, obviously, just my opinion)

So you believe that human are corrupt, evil, cancers of the earth? So I take it God is nonexistent, as-well?

But since watching porn doesn't hurt others, is that okay? Hell no. Porn is retarded. At is an insult to the men who watch it and the women who actually do that.

xenu · Aug 7, 2004, 07:53 PM

No absolutes, and no god.
If you had the choice, "they die or I die" you would choose them.
Government exists to steal and murder. They usually use "god is on our side" arguments to justify wholesale murder - although they wil generally call it war or a police action.

And notice that Zimphire is once again trying to get a thread locked.
If he didn't contribute to these threads, they wouldn't go off the rails.

Perhaps the mods could have a quiet chat with him, or simply ban him until he promises to play nice.

demograph68 · Aug 7, 2004, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
So you believe that human are corrupt, evil, cancers of the earth? So I take it God is nonexistent, as-well?

But since watching porn doesn't hurt others, is that okay? Hell no. Porn is retarded. At is an insult to the men who watch it and the women who actually do that.

Porn is fine as long as it's done between consenting adults. Voyeurism isn't immoral at all, it's a perfectly healthy sexual fetish. How can giving someone an orgasm be so sinful? With the lack of a sexual outlet, one is led to compulsion, and for this reason there is rape/sodomy.

Kitschy · Aug 7, 2004, 07:59 PM

I never understood the whole "no absolutes" thing. If that is true, then you have to say there is at least ONE absolute because saying that there is no absolutes is an absolute statement.

Sarc · Aug 7, 2004, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Murdering people is bad, but people always find a way of justifying it. Usually through religion.

I voted there was an absolute right or wrong.
I wouldn't have any trouble in shooting Hittler in the head several times.

xenu · Aug 7, 2004, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Sarc:
I voted there was an absolute right or wrong.
I wouldn't have any trouble in shooting Hittler in the head several times.

Would a nazi be justified in shooting you first?

CreepingDeth · Aug 7, 2004, 08:15 PM

That statement requires you to believe Nazis=normal people which means Nazis=okay.
I'd give Hitler a few if I had the chance. He was evil.

Also, it has occurred to me that there is a disproportionate number of atheists on this board. That also might be related to their world views. Don't atheists make up like 5% of total population?

xenu · 08:26 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
That statement requires you to believe Nazis=normal people which means Nazis=okay.
I'd give Hitler a few if I had the chance. He was evil.

Also, it has occurred to me that there is a disproportionate number of atheists on this board. That also might be related to their world views. Don't atheists make up like 5% of total population?

If there are absolutes, then to a nazi shooting hitler would be bad.
If there are absolutes, a nazi would be justified in stopping you.

Not that I disagree with you. But if there is an absolute right and wrong, who gets to decide which is right, and which is wrong?

Perhaps atheists simply have a better taste in computers?

demograph68 · Aug 7, 2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
That statement requires you to believe Nazis=normal people which means Nazis=okay.
I'd give Hitler a few if I had the chance. He was evil.

Not to be off topic, but mentioning nazis , could you explain this? "Fascism: The ideology of the avant-garde. Or Berkly."

CreepingDeth · 08:34 PM

To a Nazi something would be bad that God would love. Come on, that was a relativistic comment. Nazis=Evil. Patriotic, thankful, giving people=good.

What, are you going to tell me Nazis and Communists whacks are not[ evil?

Surely. Nazism is an ideology of the progressive. Then main pillars of fascism are: 1. Atheism/Neo-pagan 2. Darwinism 3. Relativistic "values" 4. Socialism. Berkly is one of the most nut filled colleges in the country. And with that, it is more likely the kids would believe in at least one of those pillars.
1. Atheism is obviously big with lil kids who wanna act rebelious. With that also comes the belief that no God=freedom to "sin" (in Christian terms). With no absolute or moral point of reference, any act can be justified.
2. Darwinism, taken to the extremes and applied to human life, could call for the destruction of those seen "unfit." Jews are unfit because of their degenerate belief in God and morality, National Socialists said. Abortion is okay because it "wasn't a life." A life, to them, is when society accepts it as a life. If society doesn't accept Jews to be people, then they can be aborted with Zyklon B. After all, society doesn't like greedy, banking, pig Jews.
3. Relativistic values tie in with #1. No God means everything is okay. That leads to #2 & #4. Existentialism could also be tossed in here, but it does not fit as well.
4. Socialism. The hate of capitalism. The most evil think to them was banks, which controlled the flow of money. Someone put the "Jews=banks" BS and tied that in with their hate of capitalism.

Can we keep OT?

xenu · Aug 7, 2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
To a Nazi something would be bad that God would love. Come on, that was a relativistic comment. Nazis=Evil. Patriotic, thankful, giving people=good.

What, are you going to tell me Nazis and Communists whacks are not[ evil?

In your (and my) opinion, nazis = evil. In the opinion of nazis, that is not true.

So why can you have a sense of absolute right and wrong, but nazis cannot?

Are patriotic soldiers who commit genocide good?

Zimphire · Aug 7, 2004, 08:29 PM

Uh, someone mentioned Nazis.

Topic over.

Sorry people.

xenu · Aug 7, 2004, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Uh, someone mentioned Nazis.

Topic over.

Sorry people.

Mods, could you please ban Zimphire.
Thank you.

demograph68 · 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Uh, someone mentioned Nazis.

Topic over.

Sorry people.

Let me follow your example by expressing my deep concerns...

Sarc · Aug 7, 2004, 10:31 PM

damn, Hittler was a bad example. the topic went to hell.

get the topic back on track.

gorickey · Aug 7, 2004, 10:37 PM

Link · Aug 7, 2004, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

[/B]

Rules all forums should have:

No Mac Vs PC topics
No Religion vs other religion topics
No politic talk except in dedicated forums (and ONLY for political, not religious).. since that one doesn't get as heated.

I highly encourage topics like this to get rediculed, and locked.

Tulkas · Aug 7, 2004, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by demograph68:
Religion USED TO justify it. Today it's more of a problem with Islam. (Like Jihad as it is interpreted by the more radical Muslims)
Christianity had its time centuries ago though, as with the crusades. European explorers used it to justify genocide on foreign lands. (Such as Aztec civilization) Slavery too was seen justified. But most of these problems have been corrected ("updated") to fit with our current standards.

Slavery was deemed unacceptable by the church. During the civil war there was a huge rift between church's and christians over slavery.

Yes they did. Its called men trying to justify their actions. The church didn't care, it was simply after power.

The crusades were once again an example of corruption and men using religion as an excuse.

The thing is that the code by which those people claimed to live by does not condone their actions.

Tulkas · Aug 7, 2004, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Link:
Rules all forums should have:

No Mac Vs PC topics
No Religion vs other religion topics
No politic talk except in dedicated forums (and ONLY for political, not religious).. since that one doesn't get as heated.

I highly encourage topics like this to get rediculed, and locked.

So, we're only allowed to discuss "nice" things?

Link · Aug 7, 2004, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Tulkas:
So, we're only allowed to discuss "nice" things?

Yes, because these topics always end up the same.

The religious bitch that the non religious keep bugging them with the "why are you religious? There's no such thing as god" arguments...

Then the athiests complain about getting mean looks and getting asked religious questions.

Then everyone ends up mad at everyone else.

LOOK. NOBODY IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. END OF STORY. THESE THREADS ARE STUPID AND REDUNDANT.

george68 · Aug 7, 2004, 10:57 PM

Rape is wrong. Period. And god does not exist.

- Rob

macaddict0001 · Aug 7, 2004, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
So you believe that human are corrupt, evil, cancers of the earth? So I take it God is nonexistent, as-well?

But since watching porn doesn't hurt others, is that okay? Hell no. Porn is retarded. At is an insult to the men who watch it and the women who actually do that.

it hurts the woman who do that

xenu · Aug 7, 2004, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Link:

LOOK. NOBODY IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. END OF STORY. THESE THREADS ARE STUPID AND REDUNDANT.

Then don't reply. How hard was that?

Tulkas · Aug 8, 2004, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Link:
Yes, because these topics always end up the same.

The religious bitch that the non religious keep bugging them with the "why are you religious? There's no such thing as god" arguments...

Then the athiests complain about getting mean looks and getting asked religious questions.

Then everyone ends up mad at everyone else.

LOOK. NOBODY IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT. END OF STORY. THESE THREADS ARE STUPID AND REDUNDANT.

I think you're missing the point. I don't want to change anyone's mind but my own. Thats what discussion is for; to test our own ideas against others. Might as well just close the lounge because everyone has different ideas about EVERYTHING.

Plus for many of us its fun.

Tulkas · Aug 8, 2004, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
it hurts the woman who do that

They do it willingly, they do it happily. If you don't mind treating women as objects there's nothing wrong about it.

Tulkas · Aug 8, 2004, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by george68:
Rape is wrong. Period. And god does not exist.

- Rob

I think the thing here is the ultimate of morals: what you build all of your "what is right" answers on. Why is rape wrong, why is murder wrong, and where do you cross the lines.

Saying god does not exist is silly, because if he did there would be no way for us to know if he existed.

macaddict0001 · Aug 8, 2004, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Tulkas:
They do it willingly, they do it happily. If you don't mind treating women as objects there's nothing wrong about it.

ever heard of a pimp

Zimphire · Aug 8, 2004, 12:26 AM

It's scary to think there are people out there that don't think there is a "right" or "wrong"

demograph68 · 12:44 AM

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
it hurts the woman who do that

Perhaps, though I wouldn't say they're being forced against their will. If they participate in accordance to their own will, and enjoy it, thats fine to me. For this reason, I have no problem with most soft porn, such as playboy. How would it "hurt" them? How do I participate in their "pain"? And besides that, aren't the men equally hurt? Women have there rights. If it's what they choose, then why argue? Or how about hentai? Is animated porn equally immoral?

(Again let me remind you people, I'm just throwing this out to raise debate on the question of morality. I have no grudge aimed towards anyone. Treat me nice, and I'll treat you nice. Deal?)

MacmanX · Aug 8, 2004, 12:30 AM

Dude, "You've come to the Wong place".

demograph68 · Aug 8, 2004, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by MacmanX:
Dude, "You've come to the Wong place".

MacmanX · Aug 8, 2004, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by demograph68:

What? Not a Futurama fan?

itistoday · Aug 8, 2004, 12:40 AM

j00 r 4 n00b.